Suing eBay and SquareTrade - any lawyers in the house?
relayer
Posts: 10,570 ✭
Short story: I bought 2 Krugerands ($720 total) from an eBay PowerSeller and SquareTrade member who decided to leave the country with $100,000 worth of eBay sales. I filed both eBay and SquareTrade claims, but S.T. won't do anything until eBay responds. After numerous emails that were responded to with form responses, "Henry" replied they never received the fraud claim and it's too late now.
SquareTrade uses a cgi call in the HTML logo which gives them the ability to turn off their icon on the auction at the first sign of trouble.
Reading the eBay User Agreement, they pretty much cover any suits claiming an Agency is formed by eBay and the seller, so my "legal theory" is they are conspiring to defraud the tax system, since I will deduct this theft from my taxes.
I'm sending them the letter below. Any Suggestions?
EDIT: See new letter after coin picture below...
To Whom It May Concern:
Agents of eBay Inc., and SquareTrade, Inc. have willfully and maliciously conspired to deny the fraud claim on the above referenced auction. By not acting on the submitted claims as advertised, both parties have violated Federal Truth In Advertising Statutes and have engaged in a conspiracy to defraud the both the Federal Government and State of California tax revenue by not honoring their advertised fraud policies.
As an offer of compromise, I will accept $1,000 as restitution to settle this matter, provided it is received within 15 days of receipt of this demand for payment.
Failure to resolve this matter will result in a Petition filed in both the Federal and California Superior Courts seeking a Writ of Mandamus to obtain all manuals, documentation, notes, training materials and memos regarding all fraud activities occurring on eBay over the last 5 years which are indicative of the willful actions of both corporations in an attempt to shift their liability onto the Federal and State tax systems. Also all coding methods regarding the ability to remove the SquareTrade logo from the auction will also be sought. In addition punitive damages will be sought for the malicious, fraudulent and oppressive actions regarding the policies and actions of both organizations.
Having purchased over $65,000 in coins on eBay prior to your handling of this matter, I will never purchase another coin on your venue. As a shareholder of eBay, Inc. I find your actions an extremely poor business judgment, as well as fraudulent and oppressive.
Sincerely,
relayer
SquareTrade uses a cgi call in the HTML logo which gives them the ability to turn off their icon on the auction at the first sign of trouble.
Reading the eBay User Agreement, they pretty much cover any suits claiming an Agency is formed by eBay and the seller, so my "legal theory" is they are conspiring to defraud the tax system, since I will deduct this theft from my taxes.
I'm sending them the letter below. Any Suggestions?
EDIT: See new letter after coin picture below...
To Whom It May Concern:
Agents of eBay Inc., and SquareTrade, Inc. have willfully and maliciously conspired to deny the fraud claim on the above referenced auction. By not acting on the submitted claims as advertised, both parties have violated Federal Truth In Advertising Statutes and have engaged in a conspiracy to defraud the both the Federal Government and State of California tax revenue by not honoring their advertised fraud policies.
As an offer of compromise, I will accept $1,000 as restitution to settle this matter, provided it is received within 15 days of receipt of this demand for payment.
Failure to resolve this matter will result in a Petition filed in both the Federal and California Superior Courts seeking a Writ of Mandamus to obtain all manuals, documentation, notes, training materials and memos regarding all fraud activities occurring on eBay over the last 5 years which are indicative of the willful actions of both corporations in an attempt to shift their liability onto the Federal and State tax systems. Also all coding methods regarding the ability to remove the SquareTrade logo from the auction will also be sought. In addition punitive damages will be sought for the malicious, fraudulent and oppressive actions regarding the policies and actions of both organizations.
Having purchased over $65,000 in coins on eBay prior to your handling of this matter, I will never purchase another coin on your venue. As a shareholder of eBay, Inc. I find your actions an extremely poor business judgment, as well as fraudulent and oppressive.
Sincerely,
relayer
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Comments
Two things:
1- What is the Writ of Mandamus (for my knowledge)
2-
<< <i>Also all coding methods regarding the ability to remove the SquareTrade logo from the auction will also be sought. >>
You said also twice... you should take it out the second time it is used.
Jeremy
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Having purchased over $65,000 in coins on eBay prior to your handling of this matter, I will never purchase another coin on your venue >>
No need to include that - in fact, it might make them less likely to cooperate.
<< <i>As an offer of compromise, I will accept $1,000 as restitution to settle this matter, provided it is received within 15 days of receipt of this demand for payment >>
I'd recommend placing that further down in the letter.
<< <i>In addition punitive damages... >>
Comma after "addition".
<< <i>By not acting on... >>
Change to "By failing to act upon..."
I presume you will include a fully detailed history of your contact and claim attempts, etc.
Good luck to you.
Dan Branson in Rockford IL
Jeremy- A Writ of Mandamus is just a court order mandating somebody to do something. I'm not even sure if it can be used against a non-government agency. I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet.
Russ- I want them to think I'm somebody with nothing better to do all day than be annoying (hmmm... never mind)
Eye - If I do anything it will be in small claims court. You can get up to $5K
CoinResource- They pretty much have a lock in the user agreement about agencies (and there has never been a successful lawsuit trying to prove an agency exists between eBay and their rip-off clients). The truth is I'm probably right. Paying claims costs them money and the money is recovered by an offset in taxes, so taxpayers pay for the fraud. eBay intentionally has a "hands off" attitude about fraud because they claim they are only a venue. Doing more will chip away at the agency defense.
Coinguy1 - Your advice is 100% right on - as always.
Copperfish - you have good tastes in coins. Wanna buy it?
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You have made several mistakes which others can learn from. I did too, about a year ago when I was scammed.
1. Not using escrow service
2. Believing a powerseller stands for something
3. Buying high end coins on ebay
4. Buying ebay stock
5. Thinking they will take you seriously
6. Thinking a lawyer will take up your case
Best course of action? Go to your town paper and get them to write an expose about it. Wont help you but maybe others......
At most eBay would pay $135, and SquareTrade $4.90 (plus their $25 handling fee so I'd owe them $20). At least I can tell the weasels I know what they're doing and maybe they'll pony up some nuisance money.
To Whom It May Concern:
Agents of eBay Inc., and SquareTrade, Inc. have willfully and maliciously conspired to deny the fraud claim on the above referenced auction. By failing to act upon the submitted claims in accordance with their advertised policies, both parties have violated Federal Truth In Advertising Statutes and have engaged in a willful conspiracy to defraud the Federal Government and State of California of tax revenue by not honoring their advertised fraud policies.
Failure to resolve this matter will result in a Petition filed in both the Federal and California Superior Courts seeking a Writ of Mandamus to obtain all manuals, documentation, notes, training materials, emails, methods, source code (to account for disappearing SqaureTrade logos from auctions) and any and all memorandum regarding fraud activities occurring on eBay both independently and in conjunction with SquareTrade, Inc. in order to discover the full extent of the willful actions of both corporations to shift their liability onto the Federal and State tax systems.
In addition, punitive damages will be sought for the malicious, fraudulent and oppressive actions regarding the policies and actions of both organizations.
As an offer of compromise, I will accept $1,000 to settle this matter, provided it is received within 20 days of receipt of this demand for payment.
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since 8/1/6
The SquareTrade logo indicates they have a $1,000 guarantee. A computer company did everything it needed to so that it could have the SquateTrade logo, then set up a bunch of auctions for PCs. The price of the lap-tops was about $1200, so people purchased the PC's thinking they are covered for fraud ($1000 from SquareTrade and $200 from eBay). After a few weeks, the company had sold thousands of dollars worth, but of course nothing was ever shipped. That's when everyone learned that the $1000 listed on the logo is a guarantee PER SELLER, not PER TRANSACTION. So all these people who sent their $1000+ is only going to get about $5 buck back.
<< <i>provided it is received within 15 days of receipt of this demand for payment. >>
this, in particular, sounds like extortion.
<< <i>the CEO got notice of intent to arrest him for violating the court's will to pay me >>
bull. no one is subject to arrest for failure to pay a civil judgement.
<< <i>If Ebay plays the role of big company as they should, they will not answer the small claims suit, and you will win by default. They will file an appeal to "real" court, which you will either ignore, dismissing your small claims judgment and accept your losses >>
false. small claims procedings are not recorded unless requested and paid for. no recording = no appeal. period.
p.s. i doubt you could prevail on any theory you've presented.
a writ of mandamus compels a person, corp, etc. (even a lower court - as most often applied) to perform their 'duty', not just do 'something'. generally used in a case of a failure to act and mandamus would not lie when the law has provided a specific remedy.
Hey, it's free to report a fraud to the IRS. Been a while since I did it, but I think it was the Pittsburgh division. If someone had $720 of my money, I wouldn't hesitate to call - no make that write - the IRS. There is also a smaller agency having to do with the Department of the Treasury. I don't remember the complete name, but they investigate tax fraud and Ebay would be large enough to interest them.
You are much better served by knocking out the legal jargon and just writing a succinct letter saying what the facts are that lead you to believe you were damaged by eBay and what relief you want. And, don't threaten to sue unless you really will. Of course, a suit beats a letter in effect.
Most likely, however, you have already waived the right to sue and have agreed in the eBay user agreement to arbitrate any claims (a nonjudicial dispute resolution method). In arbitration, generally, the awards are much smaller than in the courts. And, some say the panels are stacked against consumers.
A writ of mandamus is inapplicable here. Such is an order from a higher tribunal (normally a court) to a lower entity ordering the lower entity to do a required nondiscretionary act. For example, let's say that the DMV must by statute renew your license if you fill out the form and pay a fee. You do all of this but the agent won't renew your license because the agent dislikes you. You could petition a court to issue a writ forcing the director of DMV to renew the license.
Could you explain here what eBay did to you? Is the gist of it that eBay certified the seller as a "Squaretrader" and then the guy bolted with your money?
What I meen by this is the squaretrade and the powerseller is a service provided by ebay that in a sence says to a prospective buyer that the auction seller is a trusted person or company . That they have met certain criteria to use these titles. What in a sence Ebay is saying by that is we trust them you should trust them. Now when on 60 minutes they have the CEO or owner who says in effect the fraud on ebay is so low as not to be much of a bother to us. He goes on to say that the rate of fraud is like 30 out of 1 million. Granted that is a very low number, but what the 60 minutes report dosent say is what that 30 out of 1 million equates into dollar wise.
In a way what Ebay is saying by their actions is as long as we as a company (Ebay) get our money for the listing and as long as the seller got his money. We dont care about the buyer because they have already paid and we got our cut We will just put off on responding to his or her notice to us of the possability of fraud buy a seller, and the intent of the buyer to get his money back through ebay and squaretrade. Then by our inaction we wont have to pay the claim and nor will our seaming business partners have to pay the claim. This in my view and understanding is running right up and next to fraud on the part of Ebay.
Yes Ebay does say cavet emptor ( I hope I spelled that right ) But when they go and allow people and companies to put up fairtrade and power seller logos. They are in a way now saying once again WE trust them you should trust them and because they went through what ever it is they have to go through to use those titles cavet emptor isnt an issue anymore.
When a company has a process in this case a fraud complaint form or what ever its called. The said company through what ever process dicides not to act upon that service they claim to have. That in a way is a form of fraud in itself. If its not fraud then at the least its a deseptive advertising on their part.
OOOOKKKKK I guess I put more then my 2, 3, or 4 cents in on this. So I will leave it with this. Remember how they brought down Al Capone they brought him down through tax evasion. Capone thought he was untouchable but he let the little thing knock him down from his perch.
Byron
My first YOU SUCK on May 6 2005
<< <i>Could you explain here what eBay did to you? >>
eBay advertises a Fraud Protection Program which will reimburse up to $200 (less a $25 filing fee) for a loss due to fraud on eBay.
This transaction qualifies for that program.
SquareTrade is an association that "insures" sellers. Sellers put a link to the SquareTrade site that places a logo on the ad that says something like "SquareTrade Protected to $1,000". (Even though if you go read the fine print, the seller is covered to $1,000 - if he sells 100 people $1,000 in laptops and skips everybody gets $10 - less their $25 processing fee of course). The beauty of their system is at the first sign of trouble, they disable the logo so when people come back to look at the ad it's not there anymore. It helps cut down on claims I guess.
So I clicked on all of the links and filed my "Fraud Alert" and then my "Fraud Claim" and mailed it off along with my SquareTrade claim.
I kept going to the claims status link and it kept saying "In Process" and my multiple requests thru the eBay email system just got me automatic generated form responses to the fraud link. SquareTrade responded, but said they couldn't do anything until eBay resolves the claim and to be paitent.
Then one day the staus shows "Closed" so I clicked on all of the fraud links that generate email to eBay. Finally Henry answered one back saying they don't have anything on the claim and since 90 days have past it's too late.
I will deduct the $700 loss on my income taxes (which equates to about $280 back to me).
So now ALL taxpayers have to share in my loss. (Thank You!)
eBay and SquareTrade will keep their money and continue to advertise their Fraud Protection for "safe-trading", and continue to deceive people into believing that their "SquareTrade Protected to $1000" means they should have no concern in sending off $1,000 to a seller because it's "protected"
The Police, DA and FBI were pretty incompetent too. Eddy made a trickle of refunds so that bought him some time. When they finally went to serve the arrest warrant, Eddy already made the only move he could and went back to Brazil with his $100K.
The eBay User Agreement says “NO AGENCY” so that angle was gone. I thought I saw something in code below I could work with that said …or cause to be so made or disseminated any such statement as part of a plan or scheme with the intent not to sell that personal property… but it’s just one big sentence I forgot what it was talking about.
If you can see anything here that says eBay is liable, let me know. My other problem is I don't have a copy of the claim form. I have a copy of the SquareTrade claim, but that isn't the one that is "lost".
BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODE
SECTION 17500-17509
17500. It is unlawful for any person, firm, corporation or
association, or any employee thereof with intent directly or
indirectly to dispose of real or personal property or to perform
services, professional or otherwise, or anything of any nature
whatsoever or to induce the public to enter into any obligation
relating thereto, to make or disseminate or cause to be made or
disseminated before the public in this state, or to make or
disseminate or cause to be made or disseminated from this state
before the public in any state, in any newspaper or other
publication, or any advertising device, or by public outcry or
proclamation, or in any other manner or means whatever, including
over the Internet, any statement, concerning that real or personal
property or those services, professional or otherwise, or concerning
any circumstance or matter of fact connected with the proposed
performance or disposition thereof, which is untrue or misleading,
and which is known, or which by the exercise of reasonable care
should be known, to be untrue or misleading, or for any person, firm,
or corporation to so make or disseminate or cause to be so made or
disseminated any such statement as part of a plan or scheme with the
intent not to sell that personal property or those services,
professional or otherwise, so advertised at the price stated therein,
or as so advertised. Any violation of the provisions of this
section is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county
jail not exceeding six months, or by a fine not exceeding two
thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500), or by both that imprisonment
and fine.
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After going a couple rounds with them, I just basically dropped it. I just didn't have the time to waste, and it didn't seem like I was getting anywhere. They started to become very rude in their correspondance with me. Sort of like they had the attitude of the customer is always wrong, especially when it was against them. It seems to me with the $$$ coming from over 2 million auctions closing a day, they could take a better stance on paying fraud...otherwise, and it may take a while...cause people love that ebay...but they could find themselves running out of people buying on their site.
Good luck, I hope you get somewhere.
morris <><
** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY
28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST
TEMECULA, CA 92590
(951) 757-0334
www.allvalleycoinandjewelry.com
In terms of what to do, you do in my opinion need a lawyer, not to say that you can't proceed by yourself but the course will not be easy. What state are you in?
The way I left it with email customer service was that I would never buy anything on eBay again and asked to go up the ladder, and he responded
If you wish to contact our legal department regarding this matter,
please send your correspondence to:
eBay Inc.
Attn: Corporate Counsel
2145 Hamilton Avenue
San Jose, CA 95125
So "Write a Nasty Letter to the Weasels at eBay" has been on my to do list.
I did some research on the Internet and found nobody's ever won a suit against them yet for fraud. Everybody tries to establish an agency - and loses. And that seems to scare them because they take a hands-off approach to fraud - if they become more proactive the next guy will come along and say "Why didn't you stop this auction before I got ripped?"
At best, they weaseled me out of $175 - and they would have made much more in fees if they kept me happy and buying. (I bought 1 coin tonight - the first since I started my boycott a month ago)
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I think you should e-mail every person the seller scammed. I'm sure it will cross several states and maybe it could become a huge federal case. Look at the thousands lost and not just the $700 you lost. Just an opinion by the way.
Ebay bounds the buyer by contract, but not the seller? I think this will be my second hobby, trying to find a loophole in Ebay's agreement policy.
Gentry v. EBAY, Inc., 121 Cal. Rptr. 2d 703
You need to be familiar with what HAS NOT worked in the past so you don't try the same approach.
There was also an unpublished opinion out of San Francisco called Stoner v. EBAY, that discussed legal theories of liability. EBAY prevailed in that matter as I recall. I do not have a copy of the opinion and to my knowledge it was never published in the reporter services so I do not have a full citation for it. I have seen it at one time however, and it is out there. All I can recall is the name of the case and the city it came out of.
I have not researched this, but you may want to consider whether EBAY could be held liable under some sort of 'joint venture' theory. They did share in the proceeds of the sale price. Each state has its own requirements that have to be met in order to establish liability under a 'joint venture' theory and candidly I have never seen it used against an internet service provider. I just throw it out there as food for thought, as I think you will find most of your initial theories have long been rejected by the California courts.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>If Ebay plays the role of big company as they should, they will not answer the small claims suit, and you will win by default. They will file an appeal to "real" court, which you will either ignore, dismissing your small claims judgment and accept your losses
false. small claims procedings are not recorded unless requested and paid for. no recording = no appeal. period. >>
Maybe in your state. This is how it works here in PA. Any civil case in small claims court (district court) has an automatic right of appeal to county court.
we'll post at our coffee machine and have a few good laffs over it.
Ebay is a giant unthinking unfeeling corporation that only gives a damn about collecting fees.
They avoid any customer service issue that might cost them major bucks and only help when it suits them and only then if it wont cost them anything.
The scam artists know this so they try to blend in with legit sellers knowing nothing is going to happen to them in most cases and are willing to take what little risk there is for national exposure.
Les
<< <i>please send me a copy of a motion for a rehearing for a default judgement for an unrecorded hearing in small claims. (it will be denied -with prejustice)
we'll post at our coffee machine and have a few good laffs over it. >>
Enjoy your laffs (sic). See Remarks, near the bottom of the image This is standard in all small claims filed in PA.
BTW, what is denied with prejustice mean? Is prejustice similar to prejudice?
I don't find it all that funny that our legal system is a complete joke and the only people it serves are lawyers.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!