superlative gem mintstate extraordinary toned fish scale!! wow! wild!

michael · June 18, 2003 3:02PM

currently in a pcgs ms65 holder 1858 type2 3cent silver trime! called fish scales in the olden days when they were AND STILL ARE sooooo small and thin just the scales of a fish!!

usually type 2 coins ARE seen dipped white or ugly splotchy mottled toning type 2 is a scarce coin type much scarcer many times overall than a type 1 or 3 trime

this coin is an uncommon exception

fantastic album toned golden rose to cobalt blue to rose golden centers both sides
exceptional toning and excellent cartwheel lustre on the obverse
and booming lustre with monster!! toning on the reverse

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but this coin needs to be sight seen in person to be fully apprecaited!! and to see this monster reverse quality
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again the coin is a monster on the reverse because of the lustre strike and toning!

extremely light clashed die obverse at noon but barely seen as such with a date that is bold and this is usually not seen on the type 2 trimes as usually the date is really very weak on the 1858 and usually again the coins come with heavy clashing

this coin is an exception to the rule! sweet!!!!!!!!!

the rims and stars on both sides are almost 100% fully struck and again UNCOMMON AS SUCH AND USUALLY NOT SEEN LIKE THIS!

fully raised rims on both sides with an almost 100% full obverse shield strike again highly unusual for type 2 trimes!!

and totally 100% fully struck 6 points on the star RARE AS SUCH

USUALLY THESE type 2 coins come with an uneven strike and again not so with this coin!!

trimes type 2 for the most part most all of the time are just problematic coins because of their small size and especially so their extremely tissue paper thinness that
just makes the coins hard to come nice
all have just plain damage from weak strikes, uneven strikes strong clash marks and then most all are dipped white or just plain ugly toning that for the most part to a non specialist in the field the coins just look damaged ugly

****** always problematic coins****** especially so the type 2 trimes

THIS COIN OVERALL IS A RARE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE

this coin is a really nice ms65 not a 66 but just a NICE ms65!

this coin again basically has none of the usual problems seen on type 2 trimes and overall the eye appeal is just superb!!

combined with the really exceptional extraordinary toning just makes this a sweet one in a million coin

and an extremely popular 1850's type coin with tremendous pressure as for type 2 type for trimes

type 2 trimes are

5 times rarer in gem mintstate than type 1 trimes
6 times rarer in gem mintstate than type 3 trimes

type 2 trimes are extremely rare in proof

MONSTA!!!!!!!

sincerely michael

airplanenut · June 18, 2003 3:12PM

That coin is beautiful! What amazing color!

mbbiker · June 18, 2003 3:16PM

Trime · June 19, 2003 3:48AM

Michael,
Very nice 58 trime. The toning is great but the strike is exceptional for a type 2. I have a few gem 58s, the nicest of which is a toned MS66. I will find the coin in my SD Box. I do not recall the strike this crisp.
I like it a lot.

michael · June 19, 2003 4:03AM

hi there trime i would love to see your ms66 they are just rare coins in that grade and evenmoreso the type 2!!!!
the 1858 is the type coin of the type 2 series

i would love to see how the coin toned i hope you can get a scan on here and post it
or
e mail me a scan of the coin

thanks!!!!!!!!! i am looking forward to it

thanks airplane and mbbiker for the photo!
hope all is going well for you airplane with now summer to look forward to

and i see you are becoming quite the knowledgable dealer mb i bet you will set up at larger shows in the up and coming future !! as you grow in knowledge and proprosperity in the coming years good for you!!!!

but.......................................................

just make sure if you become more involved in the coin game
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knowledge
intergrity and responsibility
****************************
are your motto and you follow closely

the above three words are a rarity a major rarity in the coin game sellers end

sincerely michael

Mark · June 19, 2003 4:19AM

Michael:

You say the coin is an MS65, not an MS66. What do you think holds the coin back from the higher grade?

Thanks in advance.

Mark

Higashiyama · June 19, 2003 5:00AM

Very beautiful coin!

Actually, my type two 3c has "splotchy mottled" toning, but the look is so undoctored that I am rather fond of it.

coinguy1 · June 19, 2003 5:14AM

Michael, I hope you had to pay the "big bucks" for that coin.

michael · June 19, 2003 8:49AM

hi there higa you got a good eye appealling coin they are hard to find original and i know you and your eye then you got a good type 2 trime! i would love to see it

mark that is a great question for me looking at the coin
overall it has the look of a very nice 65

i guess i cant explain it

with mintstate type 2 trimes they come with all the striking particiularities as per my post above and this coin has none of the usual striking particiularities
i think this coin has exceptional strike
and extraordinary eye appeal (toning) and accompanying lustre for a type two mintstate trime

it does have the eye appeal of a higher grade but i still think is is just a really nice ms65

but with extremely extraordinary/exceptional eye appeal for a trime and superb extraordinary surface qualities for a type 2 trime

sincerely michael

michael · June 19, 2003 9:11AM

also for me mark as a second thought as i guess i look at things and to me i see a grade but i really cant put it into words as to why even though i know why but i was never asked why before..........lol

this coin has a thick original skin
is great with the toning and the lustre is great
and even fantastic on the reverse
but i guess for a ms66 certain services have different philosophies and based on what the coin prices are bringing and what the majority sees as positive in this market remember majority rules

in this market acceptable atmosphere needs this lustre like on a blast white ms66 morgan dollar and again blast white to boot nothing wrong with that as long as the coin is all there technical mark wise for the grade but that is where the problem comes in

i mean look at all the blast white dipped walkers in mintstate that are all supposed to be good?? maybe they are but maybe not?? but not for me!

that is why you see so many early coins that are dipped blast white and get the high grades they are extremely white and lusterous but may have marks inconsistant with higher grades but they are blast white and lusteruos so get graqded higher as such

look at all the original deep hazy proof gold that is dipped and comes out monster deep mirrored with blast and flash and is totally original and unplayed with so no hairlines and get much higher grades that is not bad just the way it is

you see these early 19 century mintstate silver coins that are really dipped blast white with cartwheel lustre then they get high grades even though the coin has marks inconsistant with a higher grade ieseated halves quarters

is that good or bad? i do not know this is the way things are done but i would not want to own one of these dipped blast white coins that are graded ms65 66 67 but with marks that are inconsistant with these grades but to each his own

i guess it all boils down to opinions on coins

and that is okie as it is subjective and with the human element combined with the coin game sellers

watch out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just make sure the coin speaks to you when you buy it and it makes your grade and you know excatly what you are looking at and you understand what you are getting yourself into

if not then that is okie just let the buyer beware

sincerely michael

golddustin · June 19, 2003 9:19AM

Absolutely beautiful!! What a difference it makes when the toning is natural, as opposed to some of the "freshly cooked" coins we have seen recently on eBay. I have a few trimes that I bought sight unseen in a mail order auction, back when I was young & dumb (now I'm old & dumb...just ask my daughters).....after reading these posts, I'm sure my original suspicions are correct-they have been whizzed or dipped. But I still like taking a look at them now & then, since they are such an unusual variety. I'd like to know how you all get such incredibly good images uploaded to the pages....just using digital cameras - or is special equipment needed? I have a type I 1917 quarter with very nice toning around the rims of both sides, and I'd love to post it. Maybe I'll give it a try with my Sony digital.......thanks for sharing that incredible coin!

Mark · June 19, 2003 9:28AM

Michael:

Thanks for your comments. Perhaps your eye seeing an MS65 is looking at the reverse, where the toning is so stunning as the obverse? But that obverse toning is remarkable and I know that it's the obverse that carries the weight in determining the coin's grade, so ..... I guess that fish scale simply is an MS65 because it is an MS65...

I like "blast white" coins--as does my wife--and so fortunately I don't collect 19th century silver because I, too, have reservations about a blast white trime. However, I do collect early commemoratives. In this series, it seems to me it's almost impossible to find an ultra-high grade blast white coin. Virtually all the ultra-grade coins I see have toning, some quite wild and beautiful, others more dull and drab (to me, at least). So in my opinion, PCGS seems to want toning in order to grace a MS coin with an extremely high grade. But, Michael, let me quote you about my perception that PCGS wants toning by saying, "that is okie as it is subjective and with the human element combined with the coin game sellers." In other words, I LOVE looking at your coins and I LOVE looking at mine, even though our collections likely are very different!

Mark

Higashiyama · June 19, 2003 9:33AM

Hi Michael, well, I'm going to put you on the spot, because I'm sure you're too polite to criticize my coin, but here it is, attached below!

Although the toning certainly wouldn't please everyone, the luster is actually good, and at least is hasn't been dipped!

michael · June 19, 2003 2:09PM

wow higa that is a good coin i can see from the scan it is easliy a gem coin and original i like it for me this is not mottled toning is is just even original toning and it is thick skinned and it sits deep on the coin with very good lustre

yours higa is a really great trime as they are usually ugly coins!!!!!!!

hi there golddustin! thanks for the good comments and i hope you enjoy yourself on here as there are many great coin personiges on here i really know nothingf about coin photography i met one young friend who does them for me!! all i do is upload them............lol and then i did not know how to do that nor post on here so they had to learn me for a few weeks.......lol

also mark for me if i am confused about a grade say on this trime i posted on here also this coin

is in an eastern collection and i got to examine it personally and post it on here

but if i am confused about the grade as this coin in many respects of the eye appeal and the toning the coin is actually a 66/67 in terms of eye appeal and toning and overall technical strikeing qualities and the coin for being a thick skinned original coin still has great lustre!!

i like to price the coin and in todays market a true ms66 that has great lustre and color and technical qualities just like this coin but a true ms66 is to me a fair retail price a 7000.00 coin and i look at this coin and i do not see 7000.00

so then i realize rhis is just A REALLY NICE MS65 COIN but with 66++ eye appeal and 66++ striking qualities and the obverse is 65+ lustre and the reverse is 66+ lustre but to me not a 7000.00 coin so it is ms65!.....................lol

good value coin and a scarce type coin and highly unusual in terms of extraordinary eye appeal

so for me it is close to ms66 in many ways and no doubt worth more
then a standard retail ms 65 price but how much is that?? well who knows????

i guess if and when the coin ever is for sale and the owner decides what to do with it then a price will be set quick if an outright sale to an individual or longer if bidders in an auctuion decide!

and mark you sum it up well as coins is a personal thing you have to specialize and look at lots of coins and see/figure out what treue quality and truly exceptional coins really are it takes time

and there are many truly exceptional coins in all series and all collecting interests in coins i guess you have to stand up and make your own decsisons

but to learn you have to make mistakes but anyway i hope you make all the right choices and remember you can always pm me if you have any specific questions on coins that i might be able to answer if they are within my specialities

and it goes to show you with early commems the greatest coins in the greatest state or preservation are usually the choice put away coins for the most part by advanced collectors and they toned nicely also!

great technical qualities FOR MINTSTATE COINS COMBINED WITH GREAT LUSTRE AND TONING IS THE ULTIMATE THING

sincerely michael

sincerely michael

goose3 · June 19, 2003 2:13PM

Fantastic Coin.

joejeweler · June 19, 2003 6:42PM

Michael.....for awhile i thought YOU owned the coin, but then in your last post alluded that somoene else owns it by saying "if the owner ever decides to sell...."

So....where is the coin.....and is it or soon to be for sale? Sure would like a shot at it someday!

My local coin dealer had a similiar "look" trime in the toning dept. as this one......but as you mention the strike usually comes weak and the stars on that NGC ms64 were very weak! Other areas also so i passed on it a few months ago.

PM me if you know the whereabouts and sales status of it.....

thanks, Joe T

michael · June 20, 2003 2:38PM

hi there joe !

i always enjoy your posts and coins on here and the information you gave on the ms64 trime is really informatiive!
collectors that study and have some experience with type two trimes your post!! it really increases their knowledge as it does mine thanks!!

well joe to answer your question with a truthful honest answer this coin is in an eastern collection and is currently not for sale and i have seen the coin in person sight seen in hand

no ulterier motives just to show off a good coin with a reasonable explaination about it merits and how to look at the type two trimes in ms gem and specifically an 1858 as this is what you will usually find this date in the marketplace

now for me i like to post coins that are neat without having some sort of sales pitch

so any coins i post are really currently not for sale but of course life changes fast and you never know waht the fututre holds but barring and deaths or huge unforseen money needs probasbly not for sale

and as to who owns it well someone owns it in this eastern collection or wahtever you call it

THE ONLY IMPORTANT THING ON HERE IS THE COIN AND WHY IT IS GREAT who knows but read below as what i am trying to do

the only relevent thing for me at least is i see many on here buying coins and buying coins that are well coins they should not be buying at all

but i got a very costly coin education 20 23 25 years ago

i would like to post coins that I consider have exceptional qualities in this current market and coins i feel have a fundemential reason to rise in value and keep their demand or just plainly coins that are just plain one in a million coins exceptional whatever you call it my opinion only

coins that you usually do not see
and something that if someone who is buying coins learns something from all the long winded posts and coin photos i post maybe sees a coin that some coin seller says wow this is great at this price and they see the coin and after seeing the coins i posted maybe says hey wait a minute maybe i should pass!!

if i can help someone maybe learn something and help them with more information make better decsisons for themselves with coins then i will have done what i set out to do and of course not have the coin education cost like i did................lol

this is what i think am i right or wrong?? who knows ?? just my opinion

but in the end when all is said and done
i would like someone to take all the information and coin posts and maybe when they go out into the coin game to buy a coin it might help them make better decsisons for themselves

and even if not well

I CANT FIX CONVERT CHANGE CORRECT ANYONE ONLY MYSELF

i hope everyone makes all the right decsisons and has fun with coins and only buys coins that at the very least they can get their money back

sincerely michael

michael · June 20, 2003 2:45PM

ttt

joejeweler · June 20, 2003 6:01PM

Hi Michael.....thanks for the reply. I must have missed it for awhile and the "ttt" helped bring it to my attention again.

That type 2 trime sure was the exception to the norm.........and reason for my inquiry. The NGC MS64 one i passed on wouldn't have satisfied me, though the toning was simularly nice. It's just that on such a little coin.......a weak strike takes away more from the design elements, since they're fewer to start with! hehe

At least the coin you showed is residing in an "Eastern" collection.......not too far away! If the situation changes you know where i am!

CarlWohlforth · June 21, 2003 12:22AM

I like that name "fish scales"

It is kind of like those Mercury dime guys calling Mercs fishing lures.

Great trimes gang! That type 2 is the tough one (all the types I don't have yet seem tough LOL).

ursabear · June 21, 2003 3:04AM

Michael,

Thank you for sharing such a wonderful coin with me. I don't ever get to see such things in person. Once again, this board has brought me closer to interesting things that I would not normally get to see (much less own).

I appreciate the knowledge you have. I also appreciate the time you (and other wonderful folks here, too) take to share stuff like this with all of us. You obviously put a great deal of time into your craft, and you take time to share with others. I'm glad you post here.

mdwoods · June 21, 2003 3:06AM

Beautiful coin Michael. Thanks for sharing. Looks like a good design for a commem half or dollar. Your enthusiasm for coins
is great. mdwoods

michael · June 21, 2003 3:02PM

thanks joe and carl! and joe you are right when you habve such a little coin loike the trime and then you see this coin weakly struck in a ms64 gholder it does turn me you and many off as then it looks like a problems coin something wrong with it and i can see in my minds eye why you passed

only buy coins with great eaceptional eye appeal

a really smart honest man a coin dealer told me once told me eye appeal!! he would rather have a more common coin with extraordinary eye appeal than a rarer coin with lots less eye appeal

for me i think he is right

but be that as it may i hope everyone on here makes all the right decsisons for themselves! and in the end when all is said and done when and if they sell they can at the veryleast have interested buyers for their coins and get at the b=very least what they paid for the coins

and thia happens only with coinswith monster qualities and exceotional eye appeal

maybe it happens with many other coins too but i guess for me why take chances??

but again coins is a personalthing buy what you like with monrey you can afford to lose and for fun as a hobby and know exactly waht you are looking at and if you cant do all of the aobve that is okie!!

just let the buyer beware

ursabear thanks for the kind thoughtful reply it makes me feel good that you apprecaite it and as always with you and some others on here there are always good people out there !! that make up and then some for all the rest

thanks mdwoods! i hope you have a good ana show!

sincerely michael

sincerely michael

Trime · June 21, 2003 9:05PM

Michael,
You always have a different approach to things, The idea that you decide what the coin is worth in $ and then assign the commensurate grade to it is a novel concept to me. I need to think about that.

superlative gem mintstate extraordinary toned fish scale!! wow! wild!

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