I see that Don Kagin is selling his 1804 Dollar that he purchased for 800k two years ago....

SethChandler · June 11, 2003 4:21AM

What will it bring this time around? It is a Class III resrike that's graded Proof 58.

tradedollarnut · June 11, 2003 4:44AM

SethChandler · June 11, 2003 4:47AM

What's the spread......50%?

tradedollarnut · June 11, 2003 4:58AM

MrEureka · June 11, 2003 5:25AM

I think that originals SHOULD be worth twice as much as a restrike IN THE SAME GRADE, but the current market discount for a "Class III" restrike is probably more like 20%.

TDN, I agree with your value on the Childs coin, but what do you really think a Class III in 68 would bring today? My number is $3.3 million. Keep in mind that the very availability of another 68 1804 might knock as much as million bucks off the value of the Childs coin.

PS - I'd bet a lot of money that the Kagin coin will not hammer under a million bucks.

Edited to fix typo.

DeepCoin · June 11, 2003 5:29AM

Where is this coin being sold? Is it at one of the upcoming auctions, perhaps at ANA? Tks for the info, as a small timer I do like to watch the big coins when they sell and see what they bring, even if I will never own one.

jonesy · June 11, 2003 5:33AM

Where!! Where!!!

Julian · June 11, 2003 6:01AM

ANA press release http://www.money.org/press/20030609-1804.html

LanLord · June 11, 2003 6:12AM

If you're interested in a 1804 go here ScottyO

barberlover · June 11, 2003 6:20AM

Wait a minute!!!

Let me check petty cash.

eagle7 · June 11, 2003 7:17AM

There is a much better picture of one in the archives at www.money.org, not the press release photo.

oreville · June 11, 2003 10:10AM

Wait a minute....... you mean according to TDN I better not be in the room even near Don when the hammer falls yet per MrEureka, it would be well advised to sit right next to him so that I can be ready when he goes out and celebrate?

Life is full of difficult choices even when it is not your coin "they" are talking about!

NumisEd · June 11, 2003 10:15AM

There is no such thing as an 1804 dollar. It's more like an 1804 joke. Do you guys realize how many REAL early American coins one could purchase with $1,000,000??? Kagin can bite me.

oreville · June 11, 2003 11:15AM

NumisEd: The buyer of this 1804/1834 silver dollar probably HAS EVERY other real early American coin already!!!

Singapore · June 11, 2003 11:18AM

I will bet anyone, anywhere, that this coin will not sell for as much as it did last time at Flannagan.

Lakesammman · June 11, 2003 11:49AM

TDN:

Explain to the newbies why they aren't ALL restrikes.

NumisEd · June 11, 2003 12:44PM

singapore is correct in his prediction, imo.

MrEureka · June 11, 2003 1:01PM

I will bet anyone, anywhere, that this coin will not sell for as much as it did last time at Flannagan.

Singapore -

Just to be clear, who wins (besides Kagin) if it brings more than last time? I'm ready to play!

MrEureka · June 11, 2003 1:11PM

There is no such thing as an 1804 dollar. It's more like an 1804 joke. Do you guys realize how many REAL early American coins one could purchase with $1,000,000??? Kagin can bite me.

NumisEd -

Pity to hear you say that. After your promise to beat DorkKarl over the head with a loaf of stale bread, you were actually beginning to grow on me. Now less so.

In any event, the Original 1804 dollars (struck in 1834-35) are great coins and legitimate, historical presentation pieces. Some purists might look down on the Class II and III restrikes, but nobody that I respect has ever badmouthed the Class I.

tradedollarnut · June 11, 2003 1:37PM

MrEureka · June 11, 2003 1:44PM

I absolutely disagree. I would not touch a restrike at even a 50% discount - I'm simply not interested in owning one. I would definitely someday like to own an original. If I feel that way, so do many others interested in this particular date.

I completely understand your strong preference for the original. I'm in the same camp. But a restrike can still sell for a big price if there are two strong bidders who don't mind owning a restrike. Believe me, there are plenty of people - way more than two - who will "settle" for a Class III.

BigE · June 11, 2003 1:56PM

After using these dies for three separate strikings over a 60 year period, what happened to them?-------------BigE

MrEureka · June 11, 2003 2:00PM

After using these dies for three separate strikings over a 60 year period, what happened to them?

Excellent question. More to the point, what would you pay for the dies if they appeared in the next Hermitage auction?

tradedollarnut · June 11, 2003 2:06PM

BigE · June 11, 2003 2:09PM

I am not sure about this, if they sold them too cheap, would they bill me later?------------------BigE

NumisEd · June 11, 2003 4:55PM

Andy, I don't like 1804 dollars. To me, an 1803 is more interesting.

Legend · June 11, 2003 7:59PM

Numis ed,
1804's are still the ego king coin of all time. No matter what class. FYI-I has the underbidder on the altered 1805 (yes you read that right) that was sold last year at the Goldeberg auction. Now thats rarer than a 1804!!!

We've owned the Carter 1804. I thought the 1805 was much cooler!!!

NumisEd · June 11, 2003 9:50PM

Laura, I like your style!

dorkkarl · June 11, 2003 11:55PM

<< <i>There is no such thing as an 1804 dollar. It's more like an 1804 joke. Do you guys realize how many REAL early American coins one could purchase with $1,000,000??? Kagin can bite me. ... NumisEd - Pity to hear you say that. After your promise to beat DorkKarl over the head with a loaf of stale bread, you were actually beginning to grow on me. >>

i agree w/ numised. the 1804 dollar is a stupid coin for stupid people w/ stupid money. they may be very intelligent people outside the realm of coins, but c'mon. $4M for a fake coin? gimme a break.

lessee, i can either have ONE FAKE 1804 silver dollar, or FIVE UNCIRCULATED 1794 dollars, or even aCOMPLETE DATE SET IN UNC of pre-1804 dollars. duuuuhhh, whaddya suppose i'm gonna choose?

it's an unreal coin, not for the real collector, imo

K S

oreville · June 12, 2003 2:42AM

dorkkarl: What if the buyer has all you speak of and more. He shouldn't buy the 1804 restrike???? Oh geez, I think I know what you are going to say.

dorkkarl · June 12, 2003 3:32AM

<< <i>What if the buyer has all you speak of and more. He shouldn't buy the 1804 restrike???? >>

sure he should - for $10 grand! anything more than that for a faked fake coin seems, well, bogus

K S

tradedollarnut · June 12, 2003 3:49AM

MrEureka · June 12, 2003 3:57AM

the 1804 dollar is a stupid coin for stupid people w/ stupid money

Whatever happened to "If you like it, buy it!"?

NumisEd · June 12, 2003 4:09AM

Andy is correct. DorkKarl is getting tangled in his own web of words. Some call this psycho-babble.

theRiddler · June 12, 2003 4:22AM

"NumisEd NumisEd why can't you be steady....
Is it because your real name is Eddie"

theRiddler

NumisEd · June 12, 2003 4:28AM

Bite me

dorkkarl · June 12, 2003 11:25PM

<< <i>the 1804 dollar is a stupid coin for stupid people w/ stupid money ... Whatever happened to "If you like it, buy it!"? >>

the 1804 dollar is NOT a coin!!! it's a replica!!!

K S

MrEureka · June 14, 2003 6:43AM

the 1804 dollar is NOT a coin!!! it's a replica!!!

Dorkkarl - You know better. The Class I is NOT a replica in any sense. Nor is it a restrike. It is a novodel, and an unusually legitmate one in the sense that it was NOT made to be sold to collectors.

SethChandler · June 16, 2003 8:30AM

This has turned into a really cool thread! A nice numismatic debate.......probably belongs on the NGC forum

.

We should have two sides for the price the dollar will bring. The TDN side and the Andy side. Winner gets.....??????

I'm with Andy on this one....I bet the 1804 sells for 1mm plus the juice.

Seth

Legend · June 16, 2003 8:51AM

I think its funny how every one wants to bet this or that as to what the 1804 will sell for. Are any of you genuises preapred to write the check if your all so sure it will sell for OVER $1 million? Its different when you are writing the check, the numbers seem much bigger and harder to tolerate.

I used to own that coin. I've learned what kind of intrest there is in Class III 1804's. Its NOT what I originally thought it would be.

My info is that coin has a $1 million reserve. Me personally, I'm in below that. I don't know who wants a restrike III this time around. Should be interesting!

tradedollarnut · June 16, 2003 9:37AM

MrEureka · June 16, 2003 10:58AM

Are any of you genuises preapred to write the check if your all so sure it will sell for OVER $1 million? Its different when you are writing the check, the numbers seem much bigger and harder to tolerate.

Laura -

Am I to infer from your comment that you regret paying over $1 million for the 13 nickel? Or did you pay a lot less than that?

Seriously though, you should realize by now that we ALL go through learning curves. We start off thinking S-VDB's are the ultimate, then maybe we graduate to gem full horn Buffs, then we dream of owning an 1804 dollar of any flavor, then maybe we think Class One 04's and 13 Nickels are the only "real" classics, then we go to colonials or

patterns. Then one day, maybe, if we live long enough and see enough US coins to make us sick, we end up in ancient Greek gold or some other numismatic refuge. It's all the same, and it's also all pretty irrelevant. Live and let live. Some people actually like the stuff you've outgrown.

NumisEd · June 16, 2003 11:11AM

Andy, I don't like you, but I am starting too appreciate your twisted sense of the truth.

MrEureka · June 16, 2003 11:25AM

Andy, I don't like you, but I am starting to appreciate your twisted sense of the truth.

Thanks! Those are two of the nicest things that anyone has ever said to me!

Legend · June 16, 2003 11:45AM

I would have paid more than what I did to acquire the 1913 5C. It has lore and intriuge going for it. Plus, its a special coin personally to me.

I know the point your getting-if one really doesn't sustain value, then how does the other? Well, thats what makes the world go around!

NumisEd · June 16, 2003 11:55AM

Laura, I saw that you were mentioned in numismatic news regarding the 1913 token (purporting to be a nickel). Congratulations. I was not aware that you have been involved in numismatics for so many years.

ANACONDA · June 16, 2003 12:21PM

I certainly don't have the money for ANY 1804 dollar but if i did, i certainly would NOT buy one. (Of course, i also don't own 'every other U.S. federal issue' which would make me suspect that true happiness and fullfillment would be just one 1804 dollar away....aren't humans funny??..'.if only i had more money, more this, more that, then i would truly be happy.....')

1804 dollars just don't appeal to me. Coins that are not made in the normal course of the mint's business just lack the appeal that other pieces made in the normal course of their business seem to have.

I'm not sure exactly why that is but i think it may be that these pieces that are not made in the normal course of business are just not part of the same group that all of the other stuff is a part of - it was either made regularly or it is irregular. 'Irregular' seems like 'not desireable'.

And, even if i had an extensive collection, i seriously doubt i would spend over $1,000,000 on an 1804 Dollar. I'd just rather have something else like a first edition Audubon - Birds of America in Octavo which would cost you one-fifth of the cheapest 1804 Dollar. There's some beauty and history for you. Or, several Proof 68 Ultra Cameo Twenty Libs.....and a Proof 67 Ultra Cameo Seated Dollar....

Yes, the 1804 Dollar has a wonderful story. But it just isn't worth the money to me at this time, again, becaue it just doesn't appeal to me and because they just seem too expensive. I mean, i just got a 1799 Dollar in MS 63 for WAY less than an 1804 Dollar would cost you and three digits just aren't worth 300,000 each to me. I'd rather have 5 different sports cars and the scratch to operate them for a few years. And while nickels dated 1913 may also be the creme de la creme of numismatics, i seriously doubt i would miss lunch to see one. It's just me....and ......we all have different tastes....and i respect those who hate toned coins and relish a hot off the press Kennedy which is identical to 500,000,000 others.

It's just me. I'm not knocking those who like 1804 Dollars. I'm just sharing the fact that they don't really appeal to me like many other things, even though many other folks might like them. And trust me, i have a wide appetite for things old, draped, capped and bust - regular issue mint state and regular issue classic proof coinage is just more appealing, dollar for dollar than stuff dated 1804 that was made for some big wig long after 1804. Just seems fake somehow.

adrian

dorkkarl · June 17, 2003 3:45AM

bingo. anaconda got it exactly right

K S

Legend · June 17, 2003 3:57AM

Don't misinterpret what I said aout the 1804 Carter coin. I'd love to own it again. In fact I hope it sells for $2 million dollars this time-but I'll just pass for now.......

jbsteven · June 17, 2003 4:30AM

If the Carter 1804 came up for sale for 2 million dollars I would buy it however knowing my luck Laura would be there bidding on it too and take it from me.

MrEureka · June 17, 2003 4:55AM

Anaconda - I understand your comments and respect your numismatic preferences. Still, I have to ask you about your following comment:

Coins that are not made in the normal course of the mint's business just lack the appeal that other pieces made in the normal course of their business seem to have. Anaconda, do you consider regular issue proofs "made in the normal course of their business"? (I don't, but I guess it's just semantics.)

In any event, I prefer proofs made for non-collectors to proofs made for collectors. So I'd rather have a Class I 1804 than an equally valued pile of late 19th century proof sets. I also prefer ultra high relief Saints to 1913 Liberty nickels. And so on...

I see that Don Kagin is selling his 1804 Dollar that he purchased for 800k two years ago....

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