What would cause this type of toning on a Morgan?

Russ · June 2, 2003 9:09AM

Bag? Album? Endroll (on the reverse)?

Russ, NCNE

FC57Coins · June 2, 2003 9:13AM

Russ:

Do you have your pattented megapix available on this one?

Frank

Russ · June 2, 2003 9:14AM

Frank,

Nope, no larger ones. This isn't one of my images.

Russ, NCNE

airplanenut · June 2, 2003 9:15AM

The reverse makes me want to say album... I don't see a bag pattern.

Jeremy

FC57Coins · June 2, 2003 9:20AM

Well - I blew it up and there are certain things that would make me shy away from it:

- The color, though pretty - is too pretty - it also appears to flow over the rims - that's a warning flag for me
- The colors on the obverse look like they might make a convincing argument, but the reverse worries me
- The overall pattern looks too busy and doesn't give me that "natural flow" feeling
- The letters and background kinda blend together where you would want to see different colors
- The central features of the coin remind me of a poor effort to have different colors highlight the more intricate parts of the design

So for my money, I'd buy something else - IMHO.

Frank

Russ · June 2, 2003 9:22AM

Frank,

Okay, I pulled the larger images from the auction where this was listed:

Click here for large obverse.

Click here for large reverse.

As I said, these aren't mine, so I can't vouch for the accuracy of the color.

Edit: Man, I need to get speedier!

Russ, NCNE

DCAMFranklin · June 2, 2003 9:26AM

My vote is envelope. Obviously, with a coin laid over a portion of the obverse to provide the crescent.

FC57Coins · June 2, 2003 9:31AM

<< My vote is envelope. Obviously, with a coin laid over a portion of the obverse to provide the crescent >>

So DCAM - my question would be - under what circumstances would you find two coins laid on top of one another in an envelope, not moving for a long enough period of time to cause this type of toning to occur?

Frank

stman · June 2, 2003 9:33AM

AT 63/64

foodude · June 2, 2003 9:40AM

This toning is questionable, the colors and patterns don't look right. Not sure how it was done, but some elevated heat was likely involved

stman · June 2, 2003 9:41AM

Ok, I jumped to quick and now I see the large Pics. I change my mind and call it just AT 63

DCAMFranklin · June 2, 2003 9:41AM

Frank- He asked, "What would cause this type of toning on a Morgan?" I provided my answer. So, what's your question? Do I think the coin is AT? Yes. Do I think plenty of envelope toned coins sit it Big2 holders? Yes. Plenty of those coins deemed "market acceptable".

FC57Coins · June 2, 2003 9:44AM

Touche herr DCAM - It's not one I would spend money on put it that way

TWODOGS · June 2, 2003 9:55AM

If you look at the edge and shape of the crescent, it's not consistent with another Morgan laying there. Not the right radius, and it has more of an elipse to it. Also the edge is not as well defined as most others I've seen. Looks like it was blotted with a cleaner of some sort to define the crescent.

dragon · June 2, 2003 10:24AM

Twodogs,

Disregarding this particular coin, not all crescent bag toned dollars are going to fall under the correct radius pattern, it all depends on how the other coin was lying on it, and at the angle and distance also. Generally, the ones with a very defined toning edge were the ones where another coin was pressed tightly against it from the weight of other coins.

dragon

clackamas · June 2, 2003 12:54PM

Looks like Chlorine, maybe from bleach in the paper it was stored in, maybe just some rapid air transfer from chloring gas.

CLASSICS · June 2, 2003 1:36PM

the front looks like bag toned.....the reverse looks like enevlope tone...hummmmmmm...i dont think so.......i do not beleive the color to be natural..........

michael · June 2, 2003 2:30PM

yuk................gross butt ugly nasty besides being

AT to me a combo of bleach and sulfur the posters hit it right on!!!!!!!!!

i love these threads and posts you can always learn on here!

sincerely michael

Deadhorse · June 2, 2003 3:32PM

Lordy, that looks beautiful to me. Where is this auction?

I think it's bag toning because I want to think that. It's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I'd love to bid on that coin right now.

uofa1285 · June 2, 2003 3:35PM

Russ,

Are you stalking me?

How did you like the Peace dollar? Remember, you have a 200% money back guarantee, including s/h/i, within 90 days of purchase!

Doug (uofa1285)

uofa1285 · June 2, 2003 3:43PM

<< Lordy, that looks beautiful to me. Where is this auction?

I think it's bag toning because I want to think that. It's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I'd love to bid on that coin right now.

>>

DEADHORSE,

Glad you liked the coin. That was an auction of mine that ended last night. It is in a PCGS MS-64 Holder and sold for $999 (my reserve). Glad you can tell original toning when you see it...appears some of the other "vets" here cannot.

Doug

DCAMFranklin · June 2, 2003 4:01PM

It was your auction, though you seem to have your services confused. That coin was in an NGC MS-64 holder. NGC has holdered a good number of questionable toned Morgans lately, though they say they are clamping down. Doug, I have shown an interest in a number of your coins and was really mad that I missed a super nice (my opinion) Peace Dollar about 5 weeks ago. However, I wouldn't be comfortable with the subject coin, even if it is in an NGC holder.

Burgandy Morgan

In fact, I was defending a number of your auctions when the attacks first started.

stman · June 2, 2003 4:10PM

Darn, and my first guess was 63/64. But although NGC gave a bump up for color..... I gave a bump down for imo bad color.

uofa1285 · June 2, 2003 4:15PM

<< It was your auction, though you seem to have your services confused. That coin was in an NGC MS-64 holder. NGC has holdered a good number of questionable toned Morgans lately, though they say they are clamping down. Doug, I have shown an interest in a number of your coins and was really mad that I missed a super nice (my opinion) Peace Dollar about 5 weeks ago. However, I wouldn't be comfortable with the subject coin, even if it is in an NGC holder.

Burgandy Morgan

In fact, I was defending a number of your auctions when the attacks first started.

>>

Ha! You're right...it was NGC (and an important distinction). Wish my memory was what it used to be!

Regarding the negative threads, you will of course remember that everyone was jumping on the AT bandwagon based on a few poster's opinions (to wit..."if it ain't in a PCGS or NGC holder, then them UOFA1285 coins are AT!") Now, when I have a toned coin in an NGC slab (without posters knowing it to be so), many think it is AT! So, I will watch with interest to see that once they find out it is in an NGC holder, will they be consistent and change their tune to match their opinions weeks ago? Will they now say, "oh, NGC holder...NT all the way. I was wrong." I doubt it, but we'll see...

Doug

uofa1285 · June 2, 2003 4:18PM

<< Darn, and my first guess was 63/64. But although NGC gave a bump up for color..... I gave a bump down for imo bad color. >>

Your first guess started out with "AT"...you missed it all the way around, my friend!

stman · June 2, 2003 4:18PM

If the color looks in real life like it does in your pic... sorry I'm not changing my mind at all. I'm seeing more of this unrealistic shade of blue lately. And yes all in NGC holders.

stman · June 2, 2003 4:21PM

<< Your first guess started out with "AT"...you missed it all the way around, my friend! >>

LOL, oh I still stick with the AT thing I was only trying to be nice.

uofa1285 · June 2, 2003 4:25PM

<< If the color looks in real life like it does in your pic... sorry I'm not changing my mind at all. I'm seeing more of this unrealistic shade of blue lately. And yes all in NGC holders. >>

What would you say if I could independently coorborate the NT with multiple unrelated witnesses in a public forum as it first came out of a sealed mint bag that was laying in a bank vault for the last 26 years? Would it still be AT?

stman · June 2, 2003 4:35PM

I'm not trying to get in a big thing here. Honestly the coin would need to be seen in person to really tell. I mean, the colors can look like that on here or somebody else could take an entirely different image and the color could be different. I'm only going by what I can see. And I usually don't like to offer too many opinions because the next day a different image comes up and the seller shows up so sometimes we get tricked on here. So I will leave it at that my new friend

and I hope that's ok with you.

I mean no harm to you or your auctions and I will quit offering opinions here as I don't like what I see getting slabbed, so they are the "Experts" not me.

uofa1285 · June 2, 2003 4:45PM

<< I'm not trying to get in a big thing here. Honestly the coin would need to be seen in person to really tell. I mean, the colors can look like that on here or somebody else could take an entirely different image and the color could be different. I'm only going by what I can see. And I usually don't like to offer too many opinions because the next day a different image comes up and the seller shows up so sometimes we get tricked on here. So I will leave it at that my new friend

and I hope that's ok with you.

I mean no harm to you or your auctions and I will quit offering opinions here as I don't like what I see getting slabbed, so they are the "Experts" not me. >>

stman,

I enjoy the debate. Sorry I came across cross (hehe)...I like shaking up the bees nest every now and then...glutton for punishment!

Doug

stman · June 2, 2003 4:49PM

Hey I enjoy it as well. You seem in good spirits, but the reason I didn't want to go further is because many many sellers come on here and get too sensitive. But I look at it this way.... if the coins are up for the world to see they they need to take some hits now and then.

You don't seem too sensitive and I appreciate it. Now if you are the one that sold Russ that Peace$ Russ just got slabbed by NGC.... I don't think that's NT either.

clackamas · June 2, 2003 4:53PM

I stand by my take on it. The toning is from Chlorine. Do you know where the coin came from? Was it stored in a bag or envelope?

uofa1285 · June 2, 2003 4:57PM

Thanks stman,

Yes, I sold Russ the Peace dollar...glad it worked out for him if it slabbed. I thought it would NT but it was kind of iffy looking, as I disclosed in the auction.

By the way, I am a collector first and foremost. I sell only as my tastes change or my wallet gets thin! Plus, using the term "seller" or "dealer" would imply an (overall, net) profit somewhere and THAT is a very abstract concept for me right now! (LOL).

Doug

stman · June 2, 2003 5:00PM

Uofa 1285...here is when I lost the faith. They gave this one the "coveted star" Even got some of the same blue as the coin posted in this thread. There are many more out there but as I said sellers are very sensitive so I'm not gonna link any.

uofa1285 · June 2, 2003 5:01PM

<< I stand by my take on it. The toning is from Chlorine. Do you know where the coin came from? Was it stored in a bag or envelope? >>

I described how I got it to STMAN four posts above your original...do bank bags have chlorine in them?

uofa1285 · June 2, 2003 5:04PM

stman,

That is beautiful! Wow, are you sure it is AT? I am no expert (obviously) but it looks really nice.

(I didn't know they gave Peace dollars stars now? I thought it was just Morgans and Moderns)

Doug

stman · June 2, 2003 5:12PM

You think maybe it sat in a bag at the bank vault?

Yes this is graded by NGC ms63*. And I don't own the coin anymore. I kept it for a while for educational reasons and to really study it but when I was able to get most of my money back I took it and ran. But I wouldn't sell it to another collector and had many offers.

uofa1285 · June 2, 2003 5:16PM

<< You think maybe it sat in a bag at the bank vault?

Yes this is graded by NGC ms63*. And I don't own the coin anymore. I kept it for a while for educational reasons and to really study it but when I was able to get most of my money back I took it and ran. But I wouldn't sell it to another collector and had many offers. >>

Ha, got me

.

You sound so sure it was AT...I am really curious how you know for certain. (I'm sure you had a thread on this already but maybe a short comment or two)...wow, what a looker!

clackamas · June 2, 2003 5:17PM

>>>.do bank bags have chlorine in them?

I don't know for sure. Prehaps they bleached the cotton before they made the bag. Common now to bleach cotton but I don't know about "back in the day".

uofa1285 · June 2, 2003 5:20PM

<< >>>.do bank bags have chlorine in them?

I don't know for sure. Prehaps they bleached the cotton before they made the bag. Common now to bleach cotton but I don't know about "back in the day". >>

sooooo...if the toning did come from a bleached-out bank bag would it be AT?

stman · June 2, 2003 5:27PM

Uofa, I have plenty of observations on that Peace$. You said a short comment so I will just say Peace$ just don't tone like this. I have many more and there is one telltale sign on this coin that I have mentioned to only one person I think. I will save that observation in case someone really wants to get in a debate

Yeah, it's pretty and looks just like the PIC. Here's another clue...... if you've seen many toned Peace$ they have all kind of breaks in the toning and such. Notice how beat up the coin is and no break in the color at all? Look at the face, look at all those hits in the face and no break in the color. I'm not saying that's why but add it all up. Look at that blue again.... it isn't a natural blue and the florescent purple. Do I need to go on because I can.

clackamas · June 2, 2003 5:30PM

>>>sooooo...if the toning did come from a bleached-out bank bag would it be AT?

Depends on the time period involved.. hence many members apprehension to the coins originality. Chlorine toning is the easiest to duplicate, just bleach out a bag, make sure there is an air gap between the coin and the "bag" and viola - real or artificial? -Depends.

DCAMFranklin · June 2, 2003 5:47PM

Stman- Russ' NGC Peace Dollar came from this auction:

Toned Peace

It was in a PCI MS-62 holder and "cracked out" to NGC at the same grade. Yet another instance of a 3rd tier service's coin crossing at the same grade! You can read about it in this thread:

First Peace Dollar

stman · June 2, 2003 5:50PM

Dcam, Thanks and I remember seeing it and commenting on it.

Russ · June 3, 2003 1:45AM

<< Yes, I sold Russ the Peace dollar... >>

uofa1285,

That's news to me.

<< You seem in good spirits >>

Stman,

He should be. He just sold that grape slurpee for 25x Greysheet bid.

Russ, NCNE

eagle7 · June 3, 2003 3:50AM

Purple fingernails, purple walls, purple coins all make me sick. I dont care if it toned in two or three days or if it took 27 years I think it stinks and would not have paid one cent for it. There are too many bright colors available on toned Morgans to have to settle for such a downer.

uofa1285 · June 3, 2003 6:51AM

<< 

<< Yes, I sold Russ the Peace dollar... >>

uofa1285,

That's news to me.

Russ,

Sorry, I have not been "here" that long...must have gotten you confused with FRATTLAW.

Doug

stman · June 3, 2003 7:10AM

OK, I remember Frattlaw buying one from you Uofa. He said that one is going to PCGS. Don't hold your breath on that one

What would cause this type of toning on a Morgan?

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