Cameo vs. Ultra Cameo for Seated Liberties?

northcoin · June 1, 2003 6:50PM

How subjective is the distinction between cameo and ultra cameo on proof seated liberties, be they quarters, halves, or dollars? For those of you who have had the opportunity to see multiple examples what are your thoughts on whether their are "bargains" to be had by opting for a cameo rather than the much higher priced ultra cameo? A related question is just how consistent have the two major grading services been with regard to making the distinction over a period of time?

BigD5 · June 1, 2003 8:32PM

I'm not sure if there's been enough exposure with the designation on seated material to form concrete pricing distinctions. I've seen a few pieces, but hardly enough to comment on the subjectivity of the designations.
I think one of the biggest problems will be the fact that a lot of seated collectors have been collecting for a longer time, and care less about what the services "designate" their coin, and more about what they designate the coin, personally.
I mean, I haven't heard or seen of any seated collectors/dealers running around trying to cherrypick unlabeled/undesignated cameo or deep cameo seated proof examples at any of the shows I'm attending (Nashua N.H. etc...).

michael · June 2, 2003 12:30AM

for me

true proof seated dimes halfdimes quarters halves dollars cameo coins that have deep clean clear non hazy non cloudy mirrors and have tremendous eye appeal and are one sided deep cameos and the other side a near miss ever so close deep cameo yet still cameo are undervalued coins

and of course any coin i would have to examine sight seen to confirm this if it passes the michael test or my standards

any coin **AS PER THE ABOVE** but truly deep cameo is a really rare coin....................

and of course any coin that is a monster deep cameo well then is a one in a million coin or you know what i am trying to say................lol

just made it near miss cameos are worth just as much as regular non cameo proof coins and also even if the coin is a deep cameo monster deep cameo or really close to deep cameo cameo coin and the eye appeal is not tremendopus or is just plain ugly is not a good coin

any proof cameo that is neatly toned is a really good coin also as per the above qualifications

and i am talking about pre 1915 proof coinage silver and nickel as per the above

and of course there are exceptions the the above rules if a coin is really rare in cameo and non existant in deep cameo where you might just get a mild cameoed coin say like for an 1889 proof lib nick in cameo monster rare in cameo and non existant in deep cameo until one surfaces...............lol that is why i like the coin thing it is exciting to see what is behind the corner so to speak

and take for example three cent nicks in oproof the 1871 is really rare with deep mirrors and a good cameo a coin that is really deeply mirrored and deep cameo as per the above qualifications is a monster rare coin

any trade dollar i consider those seated coins is really rare deep cameo that has the clean clear deep mirrors like a new silver american eagle

and the 1868 quarter is one of the rarest coins in choice and gem proof in the entire 1860 to 1891 proof seated quarter series and any deeply mirrored cameo coin strong cameo in choice or gem is a monster rare coin with the above qualifications

just some examples

sincerely michael

michael · June 2, 2003 12:32AM

as for destinctions i cant explain verbally but i could should you in person almost to an absolute certianly

almost........................lol many coins are liner coins depending how you look at them and some are no brainer monster deep cameos!

as coins and grading and the qualificastions of a coin arer always open to interpretation but if you know and understand what you are looking at you can come close most all of the time! even get it right lots of times

sincerely michael

ANACONDA · June 2, 2003 12:48AM

"How subjective is the distinction between cameo and ultra cameo on proof seated liberties, be they quarters, halves, or dollars?"

..................As far as i know, no one has published criteria for the assignment of the designations, so that would make them completely subjective, unless of course they have internal guidelines.

"For those of you who have had the opportunity to see multiple examples what are your thoughts on whether their are "bargains" to be had by opting for a cameo rather than the much higher priced ultra cameo? "

................It is my opinion that the DCAM and UltraCam designations are handed out rather sparingly - so if you're just looking at how rare they are objectively, they're rare and worth the money when they are unquestionably (in your mind) properly designated. Having said that, I have seen many, many coins designated Cameo by both NGC and PCGS that looked like they should have come back with DCAM and UltraCam designations, so, you can get great coin for the buck by buying almost made it Cameo coins.

"A related question is just how consistent have the two major grading services been with regard to making the distinction over a period of time?"

..............In my opinion, fairly consistent. I have seen only a few coins with DCAM and UltraCam and Cameo designations that didn't seem deserving of the grade. Of course, if you're going to spend the money on a DCAM or UltraCam coin, you had best be convinced in your own mind that they are deserving of the grade as the DCAM and UltraCam designations usually come with rather astounding premiums.

I would much prefer an almost made it Cameo Seated Half in 66 at under 10K as opposed to a barely made it DCAM or UltraCam coin that cost 50% or more MORE than the Cameo coin.

If i had to pick a service that seemed most conservative and most consistent with the handing out of the designations, i would say that NGC is most conservative and the most consistent.

Just my opinion.

adrian

coinguy1 · June 2, 2003 1:30AM

I believe, unfortunately, that the distinction between "Cameo" and "Deep/Ultra Cameo" is subjective and inconsistent, just as numerical grading, itself is.

I have seen groups of coins of the same type and grade, where the "Deep/Ultra Cameo's" were no better than the "Cameo's". And, because the price differences are often dramatic, if you are going to pay the big bucks for the designation, you had better make sure you're getting what you pay for! This is yet, one more, equally important example, of where you need to "buy the coin, not the holder".

Bargains to be found? I think the best bet is to buy just-miss "Deep/Ultra Cameo's" at "Cameo" prices or at realistic premiums.

cameoproofcoins · June 2, 2003 1:30AM

I personally like the dcam or ultra cameo coins and feel they will turn out to be significantly rarer. Again the question is what is the premium you are willing to pay. I have seen many coins I would not call cameo or deep cameo with the designation. I saw a seated dollar at Long Beach in 68 cameo. It was a nice coin, but only a partial cameo and heavily toned. I was discussing it with another dealer. He said it was a pretty coin. I agreed. I said there may be a nice donkey, but it is still not a horse. This coin was not a cameo. There are quite a few mistakes out there, and one needs to really develop an eye for a pq coin. I saw several ucam seated dollars at the show. There is a great difference between two with the same designation. I really wish there was some designation in regards to the fields, haze toning, etc would not equate with black. I agree with Adrian that NGC seems to be more consistent. I believe PCGS made some mistakes in trying to catch up.

Typetone · June 2, 2003 1:49AM

I have seen quite a few seated CAMs. Some I like and some I don't. The ones without some toning look dipped out to me. If the mirrors look like Franklin mirrors chances are that they have been dipped. Usually these have quite a few hairlines. On the other hand, some have what I call antique mirrors with nice rim toning. I like these. To me they are original and beautiful. I buy them. I have only seen a few DCAMs and did not like them. They usually have no color and look dipped. Chances are that a nice antique mirrored toned piece will not get the DCAM grade because of the toning. So, I think the toned pieces in CAM are the best buys. Below are some pictures of pieces I like. Thanks to Scott at Pinnacle and Laura of Legend for the images.

northcoin · June 2, 2003 5:57AM

Thanks for the responses.

Bear · June 2, 2003 6:00AM

If you are going to pay the price for a Deep Cameoor Ultra Cameo

seated liberty coin, it had better be a stupendous, fabulous and fantastic frost on

that puppy.

northcoin · June 2, 2003 10:36AM

Sounds like sound advice. If I recall correctly you (Bear) have acquired a coin or two from Anaconda. Any of those demonstrate that frost you refer to?

Bear · June 2, 2003 10:43AM

To be sure. Adrian sold me a Liberty Seated Half 1880 PCGS MS-66 Cameo

and his spectacular Barber Half 1897 NGC MS-68 Ultra Cameo. The last coin

is so frosty I keep it in the freezer so the frost wont melt. At least I will , when

I pay the coin off in 20 or 30 years.

Boy, you people sure have good memories. Makes it kind of tough to tell fibs.

Trime · June 2, 2003 5:18PM

So if understand the answers, non- Cam,cam,deep cam are a continuum in special refinment in grading not distinct populations. Thus there are interfaces that allow for interpretation, controversy and resubmission.

Cameo vs. Ultra Cameo for Seated Liberties?

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