PCGS has ONCE AGAIN undergraded my coins

bengals · May 19, 2003 11:57AM

few years ago I've submitted an 1881 o/s morgan dollar (along with few other coins) to pcgs and it came back MS62. i have many pcgs morgan dollars in ms63/64 that look worst than the 1881 o/s. recently, i decided to give them another chance and sent in 14 coins. i just checked the web site and looks like most of them were graded ms64. also, it seems the more expensive the coin is the lesser the grade given.

the article in this week's coin world also shows pcgs giving lower grades than any other grading company. people say that this is because they are a "tough" grading company. i say, this is because they are cheating you.

i don't think they are doing anyone a favor by undergrading the coins.

what can anyone do?

one thing for sure, i will NEVER submit another coin to pcgs.... imo, they are just as worst as acg...nothing but a bunch of charlatans.

Russ · May 19, 2003 12:01PM

<< i will NEVER submit another coin to pcgs.... imo, they are just as worst as acg...nothing but a bunch of charlatans >>

Now, now, I don't think they're nearly as bad as ACG.

Funny thing is, my last ten or so submissions have all come back with grades very close to what I expected, even some that graded higher than I thought they would. I guess I just must be lucky.

Russ, NCNE

kranky · May 19, 2003 12:04PM

Is there any chance that you are focusing too much on surface marks and not enough on possible deficiencies in luster, strike and eye appeal?

bengals · May 19, 2003 12:07PM

Russ, are you a dealer? do you think pcgs wants your business and they are more inclined to properly grade the coins you submit?

airplanenut · May 19, 2003 12:07PM

Have David Hall give a presidential review, or ask about this on the Q&A tomorrow night. I also agree with what Kranky said.

Jeremy

Russ · May 19, 2003 12:10PM

<< Russ, are you a dealer? >>

Nope.

<< do you think pcgs wants your business and they are more inclined to properly grade the coins you submit? >>

That could be since I'm such a sweet, lovable guy.

Russ, NCNE

bengals · May 19, 2003 12:17PM

does the presidential review cost $? I bet it does .... this is probably another ploy to squeeze more $ from ya!

kranky, I'll let you be the judge...this weekend i'll go to my sister's place and i'll yake some pictures of the 1881 o/s morgan along with few other coins i've submitted to pcgs. she has a sony cyber-shot camera and the pictures look very good.

CLASSICS · May 19, 2003 12:24PM

i dont think they should be tough......they should give the coin the grade it deserves.....however that is not always the case.....

bengals · May 19, 2003 12:35PM

btw, all the coins i've submitted were via the economy service (except the 1881 o/s ... which i've submitted via the mint error service) ... $15 per coin for coins valued at $300 or less. question, do graders know the type of service that the customer used? if yes, would they than assign a lower grade to a coin that would be worth more than $300 ... if graded accurately?

ElectricEye · May 19, 2003 12:38PM

Bengals, is your name Diane or Greg?

bengals · May 19, 2003 12:40PM

no, why?

ksteelheader · May 19, 2003 1:07PM

Bengals, maybe your name is Doofus. Get a life and learn to at least grade your coins at least closely. Life is merely a series of choices. Either learn to grade on your own, or submit to ACG. We don't need to listen to your histronics...............Ken

bengals · May 19, 2003 1:17PM

ohhh ken, a personal attack ...ha,ha,ha... you seem a little bitter, lay down on the couch a tell me what's wrong

ksteelheader · May 19, 2003 1:25PM

Oh, Whine, I don't know how to grade! They won't give me the grades I want. So, I'll lie here and cry! Go home, ballbaby and and sleep it off. It will be better in the morning!!!!!!!!

bengals · May 19, 2003 1:34PM

funny, earlier I was feeling bad about not getting the proper grade on my coins but now I feel soooo much better ... thank you ken.

i don't know why one feels better when they see someone that has more issues than his ?

btw, i meant 1882 o/s not 1881 o/s

Dog97 · May 19, 2003 1:39PM

81 O/S? Hmmm that's a new one. 1900 O/CC is the only legitimate Morgan overmint mark.

bengals · May 19, 2003 1:41PM

97, i meant 1882 o/s.

ksteelheader · May 19, 2003 1:43PM

Bengals, lie down, sleep it off. Wake up in the morning, life goes on..............Ken

Dog97 · May 19, 2003 1:47PM

I'll buy that bengals but I'll stick with what I said about legitimate.
Were all the other 64s you were comparing them with 82-O also?

mdwoods · May 19, 2003 1:50PM

PCGS has probably lightened up a bit since January. My last 2 submissions 120, and 59 coins did very well, and almost exactly as I predicted they would. I will say, in my case, I had to learn to adjust to their grading standards, they surely aren't going to adjust to mine. mdwoods

crito · May 19, 2003 1:55PM

crito · May 19, 2003 1:57PM

isn't that what Diane said at the ANA hearing? Eric probably has the quote on his website. You just have to adjust to ACG's grading standard

Then the world makes sense again

bengals · May 19, 2003 2:11PM

97, i don't have any 82-0(s) ms63/64 to compare against. i was comparing it to an 81-s ms63 and some really badly graded (by pcgs) ms64 morgans.

btw, i do have another 82-o in AU58. ... the funny thing though, the au one looks better than the 82 o/s which is ms62!

82 o/s is bright white. usually, i only buy toned morgans. all the morgans i've sent to pcgs were toned and the main reason was to preserve their colors.

billiardmaster · May 19, 2003 2:14PM

You must be real new if you don't understand PCGS standards. They don't owe you a grade. Cry all you want to but those who
know coins will tell you that PCGS is well over 90% on accuracy. If you want higher grades, go to PCI. If you want honest grades,
well you will just have to stick with PCGS. If you want to put your "opinion" to the test, try and sell your coin raw to a dealer,
and not just some small shop dealer. I will buy any coin of any value raw and feel confident. When you can say that, your opinion
will matter more. Right now you just think you know how to grade.
Rusty

bengals · May 19, 2003 2:25PM

billiard, sure you'll buy any raw coin, but at the grade/price you set! i understand that ...you are in this business to make money.

how do you explain the results posted in coinworld? are all the other grading companies wrong? when someone wants to sell you a ngc graded coin do you buy it at its current grade minus 1?

Dog97 · May 19, 2003 2:30PM

Ah-ha! There lies the problem. You can't compare an 82-O mint with a 81-S mint. There are completely different aspects of strike & luster taken into consideration when grading O & S mints. Even the different years from the O mint are graded different from each other.

doops · May 19, 2003 2:38PM

blah,blah-blah-blah,blah,blah......blah-blah-blah.......!

mnmcoin · May 19, 2003 3:27PM

Is it the weekend already?!?

mo <><

darktone · May 19, 2003 9:30PM

undergrading a coin is just as bad as overgrading a coin to me as they both cost me money! I think everyone that has submitted coins on a regular basis has had grades they have dissagreed with only to submit the same coin again and recieve a different grade and maybe even do this three or four times until you get the grade the coin deserves if it does indeed deserve the grade you want. mike

bengals · May 19, 2003 10:44PM

97, what you are saying makes perfect sense, but i still think that the 82 o/s should have been graded ms63. i have over 80 pcgs graded morgans, and over 250 morgans total and i'm pretty good at grading morgans. the 82 o/s was just an example. i have other coins that i've submitted that came back less than they should (always by one point). i think that is because i used the economy service.

on any rate, like i said, pcgs will never have me as a customer again, and, after reading coinworld this week, i need to start looking at coins graded by the other agencies ... say ACG?

and speaking of ACG, i only have one ... an 1879-s morgan graded MS67, which is by far the the most perfect morgan in my collection ... and i have over 10 ms66 pcgs graded morgans to compare it agains, including an 1879-s. the only problem with it is that it's bright white ... and i really like toned morgans.

baccaruda · May 19, 2003 11:58PM

the article in this week's coin world also shows pcgs giving lower grades than any other grading company. people say that this is because they are a "tough" grading company. i say, this is because they are cheating you.

you don't have to submit coins to them you know, there are many other services. It really doesn't matter what grade each company assigns as the market assigns value to each company's slabs to compensate. If you're concerned about having the coin assigned the proper ANA designation, submit them to ANACS.

bengals · May 20, 2003 12:09AM

baracuda, imo pcgs undergrades, usually by one point. what upsets me the most is that they do this on purpose so that people think of them as a "tough" grading company. i, also, think that they treat dealers differently than individual collectors...but can't prove that.

as far as the market assigning value to each company's slabs to compensate, i disagree. do dealers sell ngc/anacs graded coins for the "grade - 1" value? i don't think so.

hughesm1 · May 20, 2003 12:28AM

<< ...as far as the market assigning value to each company's slabs to compensate, i disagree. do dealers sell ngc/anacs graded coins for the "grade - 1" value? i don't think so. >>

On the contrary, the market does assign values to each company's slabs...an 81O Morgan in an ACG MS66 slab will sell for considerably less than it would in a PCGS slab. Why is that? The market has placed considerable value in the opinion of PCGS, but little in ACG.

I'm sure you know by now, if not heres a refresher. PCGS and NGC are considered first tier services. ANACS falls somewhere between, some consider it first tier while others consider it second tier, along with SEGS. Then of course you have PCI, NTC, ICG and ACG as thrid tier in terms of market acceptance. Along with market acceptance comes the value dealers place on the opinions given by these services.

Just remember: Buy the coin, not the holder and you'll be just fine.

baccaruda · May 20, 2003 12:30AM

I agree with you. I'm not interested in PCGS's will to become the "tightest grade". I want accurate grades.

i think NGC and ANACS graded coins can be had for a slight discount to PCGS on Ebay. This doesn't mean they're a "better company". It's the market perception that PCGS is the best service - market perceptions are not necessarily the truth.

I think you have to know who to submit to for each series of coins.

LegendSteve · May 20, 2003 12:50AM

Bengals,

No offense intended, but your grade comparison between the 82-O/S and the 81-S implies volumes about your grading knowledge of the Morgan series. No true Morgan expert would've made that mistake.

As for your assertion that they undergrade, are trying to take your money or whatever else was being thrown about ... All that may be true, or it may not. But, your assertion would carry more weight if you can demonstrate greater expertise or greater balance in your comments. Basically, you cried foul and expected everyone here to believe you. Yet, you've given no one here any reason to believe you. And, your comments towards PCGS were quite inflammatory.

Regards,

Steve

Dog97 · May 20, 2003 2:17AM

If anyone thinks PCGS is crazy...................
Take about 2 dozen DMPL Morgans, crack them out & send them in raw.
Then you'll be convinced.

dragon · May 20, 2003 2:22AM

bengals,

Your last statement regarding PCGS vs. ACG speaks volumes about your knowledge of grading Morgan dollars and your experience with that series, and the fact that you have a few Morgans in your collection does not translate that you're a proficient grader, sorry. Your other inflamatory statements regarding PCGS are also completely without basis.

dragon

ohbaby · May 20, 2003 2:28AM

Yet another person who expects humans to be like machines and grade every coin exactly the same. Sure if all coins had exactly the same wear, strike, etc. Don't expect objective results from a subjective exercise.

BTW, me I smell Greg on this one but will give the benefit of the 1% doubt.

jbsteven · May 20, 2003 2:30AM

bengals:

By using your standards what would this coin grade at ACG?

topstuf · May 20, 2003 2:40AM

After the personal attacks, rationalizations, and foofaraw, does this seem right?

My OPINION is that PCGS is not "tougher" but that they apply a DIFFERENT STANDARD (if "standard" has any meaning in numismatics) To me, it does not appear consistent. If a dealer will pay more for a PCGS coin than an NGC or ANACS, it speaks more to me of the desirability of getting a chance at a crackout. i.e. VF to XF..........and I plead guilty to that.

If a coin is XF, that is what it SHOULD be. Grading certification as it stands now is not quantitative.

I think it speaks volumes how so many desire ONLY PCGS slabs. If that desire stems from the grading being HIGHER to get a grade at PCGS then it is not grading at all but rather marketing or applying HIGHER requirements.

This compares to a situation where a job requires an MBA but only HARVARD MBA's are selected. Or considering a 100m runner to be a "better" runner if he holds the speed for 110 m. The MEASUREMENT should be the 100 meters.

As long as a PCGS VF has more detail or "eye appeal" than other companies, it is not a "standard."

It complicates the hobby and that isn't what grading should be about.

In my OPINION.

billiardmaster · May 20, 2003 3:20AM

Bengal,
Since you were nice I will try my best to help you. As a matter of fact most of the other services are often wrong. There is a reason
PCGS coins bring the most money. It is not that they are undergraded. It is because the are for the most part graded correctly. NGC
is very close, but again, even NGC coins are often crossed to PCGS, if they make the grade. My advice to you is look at as many PGCS
coins as you can and see if anything clicks. To be a grader, you have to put in a lot of time, spend a lot of money, and have a natural
ability to spot quality. My education cost me at least 50K, and that was in the early 70's. What has changed since I started out, you
no longer have to know as much. You can stick to PCGS coins and never have any real problems. I used to work with Hank Rogers, and
we bought the very highest quality coins of the day. You had to know what you were doing. You may not be aware, but many of the
biggest dealers in the country flunked the PCGS grading test when PCGS first came out. And most dealers would flunk it today. So don't
feel bad about having trouble getting this grading thing sorted out. Best of luck
Rusty

bengals · May 20, 2003 3:20AM

steve,

i also said that i have an 1882-o au58 that looks better than the 1882-o/s ms62. and, also, i have seen plenty of other 1882-o (s) in my life time ... just don't have any in my collection

funny, how you guys assume that i'm wrong and they are right... could it be that they've made a mistake? noooo; but how about the 1942 d mercury dime that i have in my collection which was labeled as 1942 (without the d) ...

MacCoin · May 20, 2003 3:26AM

I know what you mean. they do it to me all the time. I keep telling them all my coins are MS70 or PR70 and they never come back that way. sometimes they don't even come back mint state.

bengals · May 20, 2003 3:28AM

jbsteven, that picture doesn't tell me much about the grade ... beautiful coin though. without a loupe i couldn't tell you what this coin would grade.

btw, on the reverse at 3 o'clock is that a scratch (between the wreath and the writing)?

as far as ACG, like i said I only have one morgan. an 1879-s just like yours that is bright white graded ms67.... this weekend i'll take a picture of it (and mine we'll be from a closer range and will have more detail) and i'll post it here ... you guys would be amazed, it blows any pcgs ms-66 coin that i have.

Baley · May 20, 2003 3:29AM

I don't understand why bengals cares what the coins coins in question are graded (or under-graded)
do you like the COIN or what's printed on the holder?
the only time to care what's printed on the holder is when buying and selling.
do you intend to sell these coins bengals? are you trying to score upgrades? make a profit?
also, did you know that the OWNERS of coins, as a rule, typically view their coins a point higher than non-owner evaluators of the same coins?
bengals seems to imply that his coins are not being graded correctly because he's not paying pcgs enough (using "economy") and thinks that maybe a higher a level of service will "work" better than repeated resubmissions to get the coins into their "correct" holders.

bengals should consider the possibility that the coins just aren't the grades he thinks they are.
perhaps a picture of said coins posted here would help.

RELLA · May 20, 2003 3:38AM

<< without a loupe i couldn't tell you what this coin would grade >>

Put down the loupe when you grade a coin...learn to find out what you need to know about the coin to grade it with the naked eye. Use the loupe to "verify" your first impressions or just to study the coin in more detail for your own enjoyment. This will take a bit of getting used to but will make you a stronger grader in the long run IMO.

RELLA

Russ · May 20, 2003 3:38AM

<< i also said that i have an 1882-o au58 that looks better than the 1882-o/s ms62. >>

It's not at all unusual for an AU58 coin to look better than an MS62 coin. Start looking at graded gold, for example. Many, many AU58s look better than their MS counterparts. I have a hunch the same thing applies to Morgans, or just about any series.

Russ, NCNE

Baley · May 20, 2003 3:41AM

he's right. the SLQ below is an AU 58 (or 59) coin in my opinion and looks better than most 62s

EVillageProwler · May 20, 2003 3:45AM

as far as ACG, like i said I only have one morgan. an 1879-s just like yours that is bright white graded ms67.... this weekend i'll take a picture of it (and mine we'll be from a closer range and will have more detail) and i'll post it here ... you guys would be amazed, it blows any pcgs ms-66 coin that i have.

I am incredulous...

EVP

RELLA · May 20, 2003 3:50AM

<< perhaps a picture of said coins posted here would help. >>

I don't think that pictures of coins have no value...but when it comes to grading and to what the coins will look like in real life they are not always to be trusted. When I first started taking pictures of coins I could take pictures of several MS65 examples with some pictures looking MS63 and others looking MS67...some coins always looked worse in pictures than in real life and some always looked better. Now I can take quite a few single MS65 coins and produce "AU58" "MS63" "MS65" and sometimes even "MS67" pictures of the same coin. About the only time you can draw even reasonably solid grading conclusions from pictures is when you have another picture of a very similar coin from the same source plus the actual coin from that other picture to use for comparison.

RELLA

bengals · May 20, 2003 3:59AM

rusty, i thank you for the reply/advice.

and here are few comments or questions that anyone can elaborate on if so desired:
1. if a coin is between two grades, pcgs would assign the lower one
2. buy pcgs graded coins but do not submit any for grading ... unless you are a dealer?
3. why is there a presidential review that costs extra money?
4. why does the economy service only cover coins up to $300 in value?
5. what happens to a coin submitted via the economy service whose final value is greater than 300? do they downgrade it?

PCGS has ONCE AGAIN undergraded my coins

Comments

Leave a Comment