Ira Stein responds to his first Negative (Beware of this bidder)

K6AZ · May 15, 2003 7:27PM

Ira Stein posted the following in RCC. Apparently, he has issues signing in here. I am crossing this over here because I know a lot of you sell high end material. This bidder sounds like one to avoid at all costs.
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Yep, got my first neg out of about 1700 positives.

The bidder, CCCoins, buys a NGC AU-53 1916-D 10c for a Buy It Now price of
$4350, pays using an eCheck on Pay Pal which takes 4-5 business days to clear
into my PayPal acc't.

I write buyer back and tell him (this was on a Monday) that I was leaving town
for a vacation on the following Sat and funds didn't clear into my PayPal acct
by Friday of that week then I would ship upon my return on May 14.

Bidder says not acceptable, trust him and ship immediately as his customer
(bidder is a coin dealer) will not wait. I call him tell him I'll accept his
company check and if he sends via Priority Mail I will have it on Thursday at
latest and will ship the dime before I leave and will cancel his payment on my
PayPal acc't. Next day he pays via a credit card on PayPal and I ship
immediately. On May 9 bidder writes that coin is horrible with a huge scratch
completely across obverse. How dare I send him a piece of garbage like that and
people like me make him sick.

Here's the photo..no such scratch..but, he doesn't need a reason to return it.

Photo:

1916-D Mercury Dime

I write him back that I was sorry the customer didn't like it, I could remember
no scratch but to please send it back and I would issue a refund less a 2.4%
restocking fee since it was a PayPal charge and that restocking fee is not only
mentioned in all my auctions but also in his winning notification. (PayPal
charges me a non-refundable 2.9%, so this is not a winning situation for me).

He writes back that he decided to keep it as he has millions of dollars in such
flawed key dates and he doesn't want me to profit yet again from its sale but
will enter negative feedback on eBay and also on all the professional coin
exchanges warning others of my horrible & dishonest way of doing business!

*************************************************************

Now if I paid $4350 for a coin and hated it AND used the convenience of PayPal
to charge to my credit card, I'd be delighted to return it and lose only the
2.4% restocking fee, wouldn't you? After all, the vast majority of coin
auctions on eBay don't offer any return privilege. I gave the bidder the option
of paying by check and he chose to charge to a credit card using PayPal. His
choice, not mine.

I know he appears to be buying coins graded by ACG, NTC and PCI and he says he
has a shop so my guess is that he's selling them to his store customers and
telling them what great buys they are. I don't think there's any conspiracy
with the Hagers and he's NOT a Florida dealer.

His eBay id is: cccoins and he's on my short list of blocked bidders. Monday
I'll contact Safe Harbor and send them all the correspondence between the two
of us, including his threats and see if they can do anything about the neg. I'm
not hopeful, but in dealing with so many folks ones is bound to run into a few
that are totally unreasonable.

Ira Stein

abmluce · May 15, 2003 8:47PM

Is the bidder the east coast coin company that sells raw coins with discriptions like " BU ++" ?

MadMarty · May 15, 2003 9:17PM

It most likely got scratched as he was cracking it out to sell it as BU++!!!

jbsteven · May 15, 2003 9:32PM

sounds like a punk kid that has no idea how the coin business works.

ccrdragon · May 15, 2003 10:00PM

Don't think I have much to worry about, but this turd is on my blocked list also!

Dog97 · May 16, 2003 12:06AM

OK so the buyer is a jerk but how that justify Ira Stein penalizing him almost $100 just for returning the coin?

dorkkarl · May 16, 2003 12:10AM

why was ira stein asking so much for the 16-d?

K S

tgilliams · May 16, 2003 12:26AM

aweful high restocking fee. if you wanted restocking fee plus the net amount you received from paypal. i'd neg you also. that restocking fee is a almost all pure profit to you. hard to believe it costs you close to $100 to take a coin out of an envelope and put it back in your vault. neg is not bad in this case.

jamesfsm · May 16, 2003 12:30AM

Paypal, I believe, does let you reverse a credit card transaction w/o incurring the fees if done early on. Maybe, another seller can comment.

Ira gave the bidder a retaliatory negative feedback. IMO, that is bad form as the bidder paid right away. I like Ira alot but retaliation is unneeded here.

wondercoin · May 16, 2003 12:32AM

I was under the impression PAYPAL returns the 2.4% or whatever the fee is as well, so long as the deal is cancelled within 30 days. Was I wrong on my understanding?

Wondercoin

tjkillian · May 16, 2003 12:34AM

The restocking fee was only to cover part of the fee Ira had to pay to Paypal. Ira would have lost money on it, even if the buyer paid the restocking fee. If the buyer had paid with a check or money order, he would have received his whole amount back.

Tom

Tonekiller · May 16, 2003 12:37AM

<< aweful high restocking fee. if you wanted restocking fee plus the net amount you received from paypal. i'd neg you also. that restocking fee is a almost all pure profit to you. hard to believe it costs you close to $100 to take a coin out of an envelope and put it back in your vault. neg is not bad in this case. >>

How can you say this?

The buyer bid on the coin and the seller had his policies posted in English. It’s the buyer who is reneging after the deal on the policies he agreed to when he bid. The seller did not force the buyer to bid!

If you do not like a sellers POSTED policies, then don't bid. It’s a simple choice.

Your opinions are just that….your personal feelings about restocking charges. It’s not up to a buyer to dictate a sellers return policy after the fact. It is a buyer’s prerogative to pass on the deal.

This seller did nothing wrong.

Pushkin · May 16, 2003 12:42AM

If Ira's Terms of Sale were clearly stated, and he adhered to them and the buyer did not, then Ira should not be penilized. Whatever one may think of restocking fees, return no-return policies, and so on, if they are adhered to, then the NEG was not justified. It appears that Ira was up front with the buyer and tried to accommodate him.

At the same time, NEGs happen, it's nice to strive for a "perfect score" but almost impossible to achieve. Ira is a great dealer, but I don't think spending a lot of time over a NEG is warranted. Move on, use the information to block the buyer, if you think he is someone you don't want to deal with, but this example is hardly the end of the world for Ira or anyone else.

dbldie55 · May 16, 2003 12:42AM

When did PayPal change it's policy of refunding it's charges on a return? Who would accept PayPal if you lose when you have a return?

RNCHSN · May 16, 2003 12:51AM

The "restocking fee" ALMOST covers the Paypal fee that he gets charged for accepting the payment! This a fair practice if he lists it in the auction page. READ THE FINE PRINT AND DO NOT BID IF YOU CANNOT ACCEPT THE TERMS AS ADVERTISED!!!!!!!!

dbldie55 · May 16, 2003 12:55AM

From the PayPal site:

If a Business or Premier Account provides a refund without using the refund link, PayPal cannot reimburse the transaction fee assessed when the payment was received.

You are not charged a fee if you refund the PayPal payment (correctly).

jeffnpcb · May 16, 2003 1:07AM

When he decided to "Buy it now" option, funds should be there before the key is hit on the computer by the buyer. Picture looks great and would never make AU with a huge scratch on the reverse.
Well, what do you expect with a feedback of 23!!

Dog97 · May 16, 2003 1:07AM

ALSO FROM THE PAYPAL SITE: When you send a refund using the refund link, PayPal will also refund the fees charged for the transaction.

You guys seem to think just because it's one dealer sticking it to another it's acceptable but if it were YOU who had to pay over $100 just to return a coin + the shipping back you would be complaining about this double dipping dealer who got his fees back then charged the buyer another $100 plus for the fees he just got back.

wondercoin · May 16, 2003 1:20AM

"ALSO FROM THE PAYPAL SITE: When you send a refund using the refund link, PayPal will also refund the fees charged for the transaction. "

Dog: Thanks for pulling that up. I continue to operate under the assumption that if someone wants to return a coin who paid me with PAYPAL, that I can comfortably return 100% of their money, because PAYPAL will give me back the fees.

Wondercoin

Tonekiller · May 16, 2003 1:21AM

Come on Dog. The buyer did not have to bid. He did, so the restocking is fair as stated.

Wrong or right it was the terms of the sale. If you bid you agree.

TBT

K6AZ · May 16, 2003 1:24AM

Dog, there is something you and some others are missing here. That is, to use the refund option with PayPal, the entire amount must be refunded. This includes the shipping, which for a $4350 coin is a hefty amount. Should the seller eat the shipping because the buyer doesn't like an accurately described coin?

By the way, Ira's problem issue is logging in here. He has never avoided dealing with criticism in the past. And Ira has no idea that this was posted here, I did it on my own.

jbsteven · May 16, 2003 1:24AM

I agree with TBT on that one

done deal

K6AZ · May 16, 2003 1:26AM

One more thing Dog- there is a regular poster here who lists a 10% restocking fee and I don't see anyone complaining about that individual.

wondercoin · May 16, 2003 1:32AM

"(PayPal charges me a non-refundable 2.9%, so this is not a winning situation for me)."

KGAZ: My only question about this is whether this comment was correct in the original comments you made? I was concerned about how I would treat a return.

Wondercoin

Dog97 · May 16, 2003 1:33AM

K6AZ it either boils down to the seller eating $18 or the buyer eating $100+ so you know where I stand.
Post a thread about the dealer you speak of charging 10% and I'll voice my dissapproval on him too.
Everytime a "restocking fee" is mentioned here the boards opinion is that it is a bad thing. My, my, how opinion changes.
If you think I erred about the issue thing just tell me and I'll cheerfully and promptly edit my post.

K6AZ · May 16, 2003 1:54AM

Dog, my opinion hasn't changed. Go back and look at my auction you bid on. You will find virtually the identical terms, no questions asked returns minus shipping and PayPal fees.

It looks like you expect sellers to take the hit on shipping and fees, which isn't going to happen with the amount of people out there who like to cherry pick and return 90% of what they buy. If you are really picky, and return a good percentage of what you buy, you shouldn't be using PayPal.

As far as the issue thing, are you calling me a liar?

joejeweler · May 16, 2003 1:55AM

Dog.....you "erred" on this one. I have no problem with following thru on terms that are stated UPFRONT. To make excuses for this buyer is ludicrous.......he didn't have to bid, and he certainly didn't honor the terms of that bid.

I've bought 3 coins from Ira Stein in the past (my gorgeous PCGS MS64RB 1877 Indian, PCGS MS64RB 1955 Double Die Lincoln that's 85% red, and a buffalo nickel i've since sold) .......and currently have a nice PCGS MS66RB 1909-S VDB on 90 day layaway with him that looks full red but with a touch of woodgraining. I knew going in that if i return THAT coin.......i'll have to eat much more than a lowsy $100 , (around $800+ actually) as the coin has been taken off the market for an extended period of time. I know the terms going in, accept them, ........and commit to a coin. What's the problem in holding a buyer to the original terms?

Ira's a good dealer and didn't deserve the "neg" here.......

Dog.......better make an edit.....

ohbaby · May 16, 2003 1:56AM

Why do people insist on making these disagreements public?

Reminds me of my kids: "He hit me first"!

Grow up and move on.

K6AZ · May 16, 2003 2:08AM

This isn't about a disagreement. This is about an unreasonable bidder on eBay. I posted this to warn other sellers. Read the title of the thread.

flaminio · May 16, 2003 2:27AM

<< The bidder, CCCoins, buys a NGC AU-53 1916-D 10c for a Buy It Now price of
$4350, pays using an eCheck on Pay Pal which takes 4-5 business days to clear
into my PayPal acc't. >>

One clarification from K6AZ's report of Ira's -- the butthead bidder is "cccoin" (no s).

RYK · May 16, 2003 3:49AM

As an ebay buyer, I would not hesitate to purchase a coin from someone on ebay with the feedback profile of Mr. Stein's. If you have enough transactions, there is bound to be some disappointments. Particularly if some loon is involved, as in this case, I would give the neg no credence whatsoever. I suspect that most reasonable buyers probably feel the same.

Robert

abuell · May 16, 2003 4:01AM

cccoin - 218 positive feedsbacks, 28 are from unique users. Check out who has left nearly 200 positive feedbacks for this name! Doesn't everyone have a shill account or two?

roadrunner · May 16, 2003 10:06AM

As per his email: ccc states that he has "millions" of flawed better date pieces in his inventory. I guess he either must be a coinaholic or just a poor businessman.

Teletrade also subscribes to the 3% return restock fee. That would be $130 on this 16d dime. How about $300 on a $10,000 coin?

roadrunner

sinin1 · May 16, 2003 10:12AM

ccoin has alot of feedback from centsles

Does that mean they are the same? or maybe one is the shill and purchasing account? or maybe ccoin just likes the stuff they get from centsles?

lordmarcovan · May 16, 2003 12:23PM

Sounds like a tough customer to deal with.

mbbiker · May 16, 2003 12:31PM

I'm surprised no one told him to put a link to the auction in his feedback and then have someone report him and get the neg deleted.

joejeweler · May 16, 2003 12:36PM

mbbiker.....i was going to recommend that to Ira but he had already posted a response to his neg feedback. Had it been unused, that might have worked.

<< I'm surprised no one told him to put a link to the auction in his feedback and then have someone report him and get the neg deleted. >>

iras4 · May 16, 2003 12:51PM

<< aweful high restocking fee. if you wanted restocking fee plus the net amount you received from paypal. i'd neg you also. that restocking fee is a almost all pure profit to you. hard to believe it costs you close to $100 to take a coin out of an envelope and put it back in your vault. neg is not bad in this case. >>

I've been out of town for a few days at a coin show and just returned a couple of hours ago. Since I am the subject of this thread, I feel I must respond to this post and others.

It is true that if I leave the funds in my PayPal account when received and do NOT transfer them out of the PayPal account into my personal account thast I have 30 days in which to issue a refund if bidder returns an item.

Since it takes at least 7 days typically for a coin sent by Registered Mail to reach a bidder and then 7 days longer for the bidder to decide to keep it or not, I would have to leave funds in my PayPal account for about 20 days running just to be safe. In that time period, I may have in excess of $40,000 stuck in that account. I will not allow PayPal to keep those funds out of my operating account for that long. Why? In the nearly 5 years I've been on eBay only 5 items have been returned and only ONE so far has incurred the 2.4% restocking fee. I don't profit in ANY WAY from that fee as I am charged more than that.

These are the terms that are clearly stated in ALL my auctions:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Full 7 day return privilege if not delighted. Immediate refund less s,h,i costs. There will be a 2.4% restocking charge ONLY for purchases NOT made by personal check, money order or bank check.

In the case of this particular bidder, cccoin, a self-professed professional coin dealer, he complained that the coin had a horrible deep scratch on the obverse (it doesn't) and what was I going to do about it. I explained he could return it but since he used PayPal to pay there would be a 2.4% restocking charge. He knew that going in! I believe it was simply an attempt to get me to make a big price concession.

Someone wrote here asking "why I was charging so much for an AU 1916D dime?" Well, wholesale bid for an AU50 is $3900 and wholesale asked between dealers is $4300. The final price was $4350 using Buy It Now. Think important key dates can be bought, certified, at bid OR asked these days? Try it.

This is not the end of the world for me. I try to accomodate all bidders and offer only very high end material certified by PCGS or NGC for the most part. Now and then I will run into someone who, like this bidder, was surly and demanding.

Ira Stein ( iras4 on eBay)

coinlieutenant · May 16, 2003 1:04PM

Have to agree with Texas on this one. A 2.4% restocking fee IF described in the auction is acceptable if paid by paypal. I have real issues with some return fees that charge a restocking fee no matter what. I have seen them as high as 10%. That is ridiculus but iras seem to be in the right on this one.

I will most certainly cancel any bids that this guy puts on my coins.

John

ElectricEye · May 16, 2003 1:28PM

The auction terms as stated are pretty ez to understand and should be abided by. Plenty of dealers list restocking fees. Some reputable dealers do it to protect themselves from "on approval" bidders, some less than reputable do it to make money by circulating garbage. It's simple to tell which is which by the seller feedback and description or lack there of. This Ira guy seems like a pretty straight up guy.

"bust a deal, face the wheel"

Bear · May 16, 2003 1:30PM

I would not have posted this issue, naming names without the express permission of Ira.

While the intentions were good, I believe it was bad form to do so. I personally do not like

restocking fees, but if they are so stated in the bidding contract, then they stand without comment

or argument.

JoyofCollecting · May 16, 2003 1:51PM

It's hard to believe how such an incredibly simple issue can be so controversial. Mr. Stein clearly stated the terms.

Think what you want to about the terms (I happen to think they're very fair)....but nonetheless, don't bid unless you intend to abide by the terms.

I've run into a number of coin dealers that I won't ever do business with again. Like every profession, there are a number of losers intent on praying on the uninformed. That's life in any profession. I only deal with a few good coin dealers, attorneys, CPA's, real estate brokers, insurance agents etc. for that reason.

But pray tell me why do such a large number of members of this board consistently bash coin dealers....especially some that are obviously well-respected?

They're coin dealers....you're not...get over it!!! And guess what? Some of them make a whole lot of money doing it!! Get over it!!

ANACONDA · May 16, 2003 3:42PM

I blocked him. Thanks, guys.

My list of blocked people, unlike Ira's, isn't short.

Ira is a good guy. No doubt about it. We've done business and never a single problem.

Incidentally, someone once gave me a neutral, by mistake. He thought i was somone else and left "????????" as a neutral.

I did't retaliate but just called him (you can get the phone number of buyers, usually) and said "Hey buddy, wanna die?"

Just kidding.

But i did call him and got the scoop, and we got it removed, because it was an accident and he cooperated with me because i was
decent to him. But, it would have doubled my work and increased the liklihood that he would just stop taking me phone calls had i
negged him.

I make mistakes. To live is to err.

Someone is going to neg me eventually.

And i will treat them well, at least initially, and try to make them happy and get it removed with their cooperation.
But that won't happen if i retaliate right out of the starting gate and lose my advantage. The advantage you lose is your ability
to neg him. That is a valuable tool. But you exchange it for revenge when you retaliate. By the way, you can always retaliate
should revenge be the only desert on the menu.

And, saying "What do you think about me giving you the following negative feedback:

......'Buyer has stolen identity...is using counterfeit checks/stolen credit cards. Has now threatened safety of my children"...

or something like that may elicit some cooperation.
adrian

ANACONDA · May 16, 2003 3:53PM

By the way, if i believed that somone was truly upset about a re-stocking fee, i'd probably waive it or offer to share it.

Not because i had to but because it would be best for me. Most people if treated well will bend.
But there are some people who have defective brains or were raised by unevolved humans and thus have bad wiring and can't be
reasoned with. They are to be pitied, although a kind and patient attempt at education is sometimes helpful.

(Terms are often not read - i must confess i don't always read them carefully, so "the deal", while constructively known,
may sometimes contain draconian provisions. Some terms at auction houses require almost an entire day to read and to digest.)

adrian

zenny · May 16, 2003 4:08PM

the thing that got me about the buyer, in Ira's case, was that he never mentioned a problem with the coin. the only specifics mentioned by the buyer was whining in the response to Ira's negative feedback that he wanted his coin faster than he could have legitimately have expected it. He made arrangements to have it paid for by paypal, then had a problem with a disclosed policy.

Anyone who can afford a 4k plus coin who is in that much of a hurry has a little growin up to do, imo.

z

ps. kind of surprised none of those ntc coins from centsles have had to be returned and moaned about.

Strat · May 16, 2003 5:44PM

A few differing viewpoints in this thread, but I'll also vouch for Ira, having won a couple auctions from him, and he sent a quality coin both times. Wouldn't hesitate to bid with him again. I also usually shy away from restocking fees, but realize Paypal charges can add up, especially with more expensive items. Certainly that's an issue a seller has to think about when posting items for sale. Who should pay the fees, or should a compromise be struck? In this case, Ira encountered a difficult individual who apparently had a desire to place blame. Having accomplished that, and having received a retaliatiory neg in return, it's time to move on. Hopefully Ira has heard the last of this fellow.

JR · May 16, 2003 5:47PM

The auction terms are every bit as much a part of an auction as the merchandise being auctioned. If you bid on an auction, then you (by default) accept the terms listed by the seller. End of story.

If you don’t agree with a restocking charge, then don’t bid on auctions where restocking charges are listed. You can show your objection to restocking charges by not bidding on auctions, which have them. It’s too late to decide that you are against restocking charges - after placing a bid.

In this particular situation, the seller was very much up front with his policy. With too many auctions, the terms are often unclear. That is clearly not the case here.

K6AZ · May 16, 2003 10:34PM

Bear wrote:

<< I would not have posted this issue, naming names without the express permission of Ira.
While the intentions were good, I believe it was bad form to do so. I personally do not like
restocking fees, but if they are so stated in the bidding contract, then they stand without comment
or argument. >>

Bear, your playing board cop here never ceases to amaze me. Who are you to tell another board member what they should post here, especially something that has already been publicly posted? Ira publicly posted this on the usenet newsgroup rec.collecting.coins. Here is the link if you want to see it for yourself:

Ira's Original Post

What we have here is an unreasonable bidder who is costing sellers of high end material a lot of money by buying on approval. And what makes this so interesting is all the NTC and PCI gold label garbage he buys at 10% of greysheet and is perfectly happy with. Apparently he must think he can buy accurately graded NGC material at the same price.

I posted this to let the other posters here know there was an unreasonable bidder on eBay who is playing this game with high end coins. And looking over the responses by some of these sellers here, I am satisfied that I accomplished this goal, and a lot of the sellers have blocked this guy from bidding on their auctions.

So, the bottom line here is, if I see another similar situation I would do it again.

And please, spare me your usual condescending philosophical dissertation.

ANACONDA · May 16, 2003 10:48PM

Bear is only expressing himself, not writing a ticket which is what a cop does. He's doing the same thing as you are, communicating. Bear's a good guy and he was just sharing his angle on the deal. I don't think he was being unnecessarily unkind, just participating. I don't think he meant anything personal by it. You are certainly free to display your displeasure at it, as i have now retroactively given you permission to do so. Please try to slow down next time before you kill yourself or someone else. Carry on.

(iwh)

adrian

K6AZ · May 16, 2003 11:00PM

Adrian, you are a regular wiseguy.

ANACONDA · May 16, 2003 11:03PM

...actually, extra large.

Ira Stein responds to his first Negative (Beware of this bidder)

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