OT: Jadecoin responds to each of Doug's points
jadecoin
Posts: 422
The thread that DMWJR started became cluttered, so to make this simple, here are our responses to DMWJR's points. These are unedited quotes, but I do note that DMWJR recently went back and edited some of his own posts. NOTE: It's a very long thread - sorry!
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(1) DMWJR SAID: I would have taken this issue into PM format, but there are SEVERAL members who are interested in finding out the truth of past events related to Jadecoin since they have decided to post regularly on the boards.
JADE REPLY: We find it extremely interesting that these "SEVERAL members" have never, ever contacted us about these issues, but decided to contact you instead. Why you? It seems to me that if these "SEVERAL members" were truly interested, they would have gone to the source of the issue, or at least with someone who has done business with us But instead, went to an unrelated third party. Isn't that odd? Even if you can't back up your claim that "SEVERAL members" have an interest in this, we'll still address your points. But before you edited this post, you had claimed that these "SEVERAL members" had PM'd you, did you not?
I note that we have received a few threatening, and downright disgusting phone calls and emails from anonymous sources. Is it possible that the forum members wish to remain anonymous so they can't be connected to the threats? Or is it possible that Doug himself sent us such emails? Giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, we will not check the IP addresses of those emails (which we saved), but be aware that since the phone calls came to our cellular phones, they can easily be traced.
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(2) DMWJR SAID: The facts that started this issue in August, 2002: A board member recognized the 1795 dollar sold at a coin show to Jadecoin, as being doctored and appearing in an Ebay auction with no mention of the doctoring. This auction was under the seller name "earlycoins" and was purportedly a little old lady (Deb) who knew nothing about coins and was selling off her husband's coin collection after he died (Harold). Jadecoin admitted to buying the coin from the board member, having the coin repaired and/or cleaned, and AT'ing it. At this point in time, Jadecoin alleges that they traded the coin to "Deb" and she sold it on Ebay. Jadecoin admitted selling this coin to "earlycoins," and claims he described the "doctoring" to her.
JADE REPLY: Here are the correct facts: (1) We bought the 1795 dollar knowing it was obviously damaged and badly cleaned (as disclosed by the board member), and paid to have it artificially toned so as to be presentable. (The damage was NOT repaired, as that would have required removal of detail, ie. tooling). (2) The coin was in our case for some time, with it's holder clearly labeled as "cleaned/artificially retoned" and priced $50 above the original cost plus the cost of the artificial toning (as I recall). It is, and has always been our policy to disclose any known problems, and anyone on this board who has seen our display at a show can vouch that damaged or altered coins are clearly labeled as being "NET" graded. (3) The problems of the 1795 dollar were described to the recipient, and how it is advertised after that point is something we have no control over. But all problems were duly disclosed, per our policy. (4) The 1795 dollar was part of a cash-plus-coins trade for a portion of coins in the estate, consisting almost exclusively of Colonials. We did this because we were just starting out, and did not have nearly the cash outlay necessary to buy the coins outright. Again, anybody who has seen us regularly at shows realizes that at some point, we suddenly had a lot of Colonials. That his how we got them.
(2a) Regarding the issue of whether or not we disclose problems with coins, allow me to reiterate what I said in another thread:
Here are four real live examples of how we stand behind our commitment:
In the listing of the Fugio, we said this:
"We grade this coin as VG-8"
"There are some natural planchet flaws and the coin has, in our opinion been cleaned at one time"
For the 1806 half, certified by ANACS as F-12, we said this:
"ANACS, while usually accurate with their grading, will occasionally make a mistake."
"This coin should be removed from the holder and labeled ..........a VG coin that has been cleaned."
These comments are in reference to a coin certified by a top service!
For the 1823 half, we said:
"While the coin has EF details there are a couple of distractions that warrant a lower grade."
"The biggest flaw is the gouge in the field in front of Ms. Liberty"
And finally, for the 1825 half, we said this:
"we grade as F-12. It has strong VF details, but it has been polished and probably retoned to hide the cleaning"
"trust me, this is a damaged coin"
You can verifiy this by looking at this link: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=earlyus&include=0&since=30
Furthermore, if you look through our website, you will find several examples of coins with their problems clearly disclosed. If you think this is a sign of dishonesty, then the rest of this discussion won't even matter to you.
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(3) DMWJR SAID: Dennis Tarrant of Jadecoin lives practically in the same neighborhood of Grand Rapids, MI with Deb Greenman. And they obviously know each other because of the transaction listed above.
JADE REPLY: Obviously, this is true, since "Deb" contacted Dennis through his yellow-pages ad, which is the largest one in the Grand Rapids phone book. Technically, Dennis lives some distance from "Deb", but the phone book is distributed throughout the G. R. metro area.
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(4) DMWJR SAID: James Garcia of Jadecoin admits that he enhances coins alot of the time, hires a coin doctor to do some repairs, and AT's the coins himself to make them look right. The people behind "earlycoins" are in serious doubt as to credibility, and whether are not they are in cahoots with Jadecoin.
JADE REPLY: This statement contains a blatant lie, which we consider slanderous. Doug has made a false accusation with nothing whatsoever to support this claim. There is a single instance that I can remember when we had a coin sent in for repair, and it came back somewhat too dark from the artificial toning. A simple wipe removed some of the dark crud, but to accuse James Garcia of "enhances coins alot of the time" is an outrageous lie that you should be ashamed of. Again, we repeat that we will always disclose any known problem with a coin, including repairs and artificial tone. That has been our policy since day one.
It is certainly true that we have sent coins in for repair, and we'll continue to do so, but such repairs are always disclosed.
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(5) DMWJR SAID: When asked, Deb Greenman admitted that the coin wasn't really a part of dead Harold's "collection," but a part of his "estate" since allegedly traded some of dead Harold's coins for the coin in question.
JADE REPLY: We cannot answer to this issue. Can you support this? Did you communicate with "Deb"?
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(6) DMWJR SAID: As of March, 2003, "earlycoins" is still selling the same type of coins in the same manner, as a little old lady who alleges to know nothing about coins. All coins sold by Jadecoin and Earlycoins were of the same genre and uncertified.
JADE REPLY: Again, this is a false statement. We sell many certified coins, and again, any forum member who has seen us at recent shows can vouch that approximately 1/4 of our inventory is certified coins. Practically all of what we stock is Colonials or pre-Civil War material, which most often is not certified anyway. We do not generally deal in paper money, high-grade Lincoln cents, gold bullion type coins, or foreign coins, which is what most of "Earlycoin's" feedback seems to be comprised of.
If you look under our recent ebay listings, you will see that one of the coins is certified by ANACS. It is a lie to claim that "All coins sold by Jadecoin ... were uncertified". It just isn't reasonable to look through Earlcoin listings, which also seem to contain non-coin items, and draw a parallel to our coin listings, even if such a parallel existed.
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(7) DMWJR SAID: Jadecoin said they have no relationship with Earlycoins, but now Jadecoin's website is www.earlyUScoins.com.
JADE REPLY: Again, both of these statements are false. Please show where we disclaimed any relationship with Earlycoins! We freely admit to buying and trading coins with "Earlycoin". Our website is EarlyUS.com (not "earlyUScoins"), and has been so only for some months. For the prior 3 years, though, it was "www.cjade.com", a very different name.
Again, there is just no parallel here.
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(8) DMWJR SAID: Quote by Dennis Tarrant and James Garcia from the dispute last August: Finally, it's laughable to imply that we've hidden our selling activity on ebay! We originally sold under two separate handles and our individual feedback is perfect! Dennis and I merged companies a couple of years ago, thus the merged feedback that someone mentioned. AND we voluntarily unregistered our account per ebay procedures. To put it bluntly, we LOST money selling on ebay, which is why we bailed on it.
Jadecoin History of ID's on Ebay:
James Garcia operating under "Wildorchyd" from 2-22-99 to 8-30-99, "user merged with Jadecoin"
Dennis Tarrant operating under "Jadecoin" from 3-15-99 to 3/9/02 (user suspended)
Dennis Tarrant also operating under "Jadecoins" from 4-7-99 to 11-11-99; user merged, but don't know with whom
Gap of activity from 3-9-02 to 12-12-02 (suspension period maybe?)
Tarrant and Garcia currently operating under "earlyUS" from 12-12-02 to present
Latest Quote from Garcia andTarrant:
Eventually we decided to meet at a Chicago area show for a formal reunion and we started buying and selling coins together. Rather quickly, we decided that we should start a coin company. We formed Jade Coin Co, LLC in 1999. James came up with the name: "JA" for James and "DE" for Dennis. It could have been "Deja Coin Co", but that had a funny ring to it.. We merged our personal collections together to form our initial stock. It was a very modest and unpretentious inventory, to say the least!
You were using the "Jadecoin" Ebay handle as of 3-15-00, which means "James and Dennis," so you knew that you were doing business together.
Further, you didn't set up Jade Coin Company, LLC as a registered Michigan LLC until August 29, 2000, a year and a half after you were doing business on Ebay as "jadecoin."
Between March 15, 1999 and August 3, 1999, you guys left the following feedback to yourselves:
Apr-20-99 1:18:37 PST
Praise: quick transaction, coins were much better than described, recommended very highly!
Apr-26-99 03:43:25 PST 91488600
Praise : Top gentleman, scholar, businessman. Much depth/breadth of numismatic knowledge!
Apr-26-99 08:23:59 PST 91488600
Praise: SUPERIOR customer, extraordinary coin savvy, a definite pleasure to deal with
May-12-99 02:58:18 PST
Praise: Truly a phenomenal customer, recognizes excellence in coin quality and packaging
Aug-03-99 05:49:46 PST
Praise: delivered coin in person, PHENOMENAL SELLER, eBay's BEST, Thanks Dennis!
Before you go nuts, this is all public information gained through your selling pages on EBay, and the public records on-line from the State of Michigan.
Please explain, and clarify any points I have gotten wrong.
JADE REPLY: Everything you stated in this point seems absolutely true, as were our responses. But it just doesn't seem real condemning, even af first glance. At the time when James was using "Wildorchyd" and Dennis was using "MisterT5" to buy and sell coins on ebay, they had had no contact since graduating from the same high school - IN 1986! In fact, contact was not re-established until 1999 - when James sold a coin to Dennis, and they realized upon exchanging addresses that they knew each other. This is a completely true story.
We decided to start a coin company - a dream we had both had in high school. "wildorchyd" became "jadecoin", and "mistert5" became "jadecoins". For a while, we used one handle to buy coins, and the other handle to sell. We later merged our feedback (which took nearly a year on ebay) and continued to buy and sell coins as a merged "jadecoins". Not mentioned in DMWJR's research is that James had another handle, "jade_cc", which was also merged.
When the "EarlyUS" website became available, all of our handles were voluntarily un-register, and we registered a new name, "EarlyUS". The only reason we did this was to create a "clean break" for our new company. The gap of activity from 3/9/02 to 12/12/02 surprises me, but I guess that we were so busy with shows and getting the company going that we just didn't have time for ebay. Even now, we do very little volume there, and it is not a significant source of revenue for us. Overall, we definitely lose money on ebay.
What is most ironic of all is that ALL of the feedback our accounts shows is postive (except a couple converted to "neutral" due to unregistered sellers). That's 550 postives, and zero negatives! In short, there is nothing shocking at all about our ebay activity, and frankly, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
(8a) In addition, I would like to point out something regarding ebay. We both very often receive phone calls from people who have small collections or material that does not fit out niche in the market. In many instances, these people do not trust coin dealers, or it's a situation where that person will end up getting a very small value for the collection after the dealer takes out his commission. We have no qualms about suggesting that they sell the coins on ebay themselves. Usually, this happens during actual appraisal of an estate, where we realize that the client's best interest lies in selling the coins himself.
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JADE NOTE: The following are additional accusations posted by DMWJR in other threads.
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(9) DMWJR SAID: DEB GREENMAN DEB GREENMAN DEB GREENMAN Jadecoin, I pulled this off your site on the Q&A page: Q: What if I send one of your coins in and it gets body-bagged?
As long as you're within the twenty-five day window, you'll be just fine. We'll gladly refund the price of the coin. Unfortunately, we cannot possibly refund certification fees, but let's face it. Certification services make mistakes either way. We don't demand additional money in the case where one of our coins comes back to certified to a higher grade! In actuality, even if it falls some time after the twenty-five days, we would buy the coin back if it just obviously has a problem that we missed out on. We can honestly say that, to our knowledge, we have never "stuck" a collector with a coin he didn't want.
If you sold an altered, colored, or tooled coin that was not "obvious," would it be your mistake? If it was your mistake, would you only make good on it within 25 days? I seem to recall you were selling coins under bogus stories last August, and several members came forward and provided proof that the coins you were selling had been altered and the auctions made no mention of it. Do those people only have 25 days to uncover the truth about a coin you sell?
It really makes it hard for me to sit here and read your "high road" posts, and your self lauding posts by two people under the same username.
JADE REPLY: We quote this because it was the post that initiated this whole controversy. Doug, please show where "several members came forward and provided proof that the coins you were selling had been altered and the auctions made no mention of it". Again, you act like there is some secret society of forum members who are investigating Jadecoin for criminal activity - yet you never provided a shred of evidence! If there are some board members who just don't like, or don't trust Jadecoin, that is something that we can't control, nor would we try. I don't think you can name one single dealer in the whole country where somebody on this board doesn't like them.
To the "several board members" that Doug is referring to, now is the time and place to come forward and back up these claims with some kind of proof.
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(10) DMWJR SAID: Typically businesses use a Q&A format to answer "common" questions that customers ask, so that they don't have to respond to that question everytime it is asked, i.e., "common."
What reputable coin dealer would be interested in posting a Q&A on the following questions?
Q: I only like certified coins, PCGS, NGC. All of your coins are raw. What about that?
Q: What if a coin I buy from you turns color, or has a problem that doesn't show up until months later? What then?
Q: I saw a coin on your sight where the grade is way off!
Q: What if I send one of your coins in and it gets body-bagged?
I don't know of another dealer who asks and answers themselves about these types of questions. I certainly didn't find this on the DLRC site.
JADE REPLY: We are trying to set ourselves apart from the "typical, common" dealers you talked about, by formatting our information in an engaging format. I do not see how this format makes up unreputable! Are you trying to claim that customers do not ask these questions? Again, what are you attempting to prove here?
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(11) DMWJR SAID: there are certain implied warranties that are beyond the scope of return periods and "buyer beware" theories. Those should be "honored" even if beyond a stated return period. What Jade's policy says is that they won't do it.
JADE REPLY: Here is another quote directly from our website: [a problem] actually has happened to a high-dollar Lincoln cent we sold. After several months, it turned dark. We bought the coin back. In a situation like that, it was obvious that we failed to recognize a problem with the coin, so it was not a problem for us to want to do the right thing.
And another direct quote from the same page is this: In actuality, even if it falls some time after the twenty-five days, we would buy the coin back if it just obviously has a problem that we missed out on
The fact (which in all fairness, DMWJR had no awareness of) is that of the six coins that have ever been returned to us, all six returns were accepted AFTER the 25 day return period had been exhausted. But Doug has tried to claim that we would lock our customers into faulty coins, and that is totally untrue. We would go to great lengths to right a wrong that we've committed, if a coin turned out to have an unknown problem.
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(12) DMWJR SAID: Jadecoin, you have sold coins and bought from yourself under four different usernames on EBay. This last one you point out is new started less than six months ago. You have been doing business for several years on EBay and constantly change your seller ID. Why is that?
JADE REPLY: It's explained above in point (8). But to say that we "constantly" change our seller ID's is, again, a false statement, just an outright lie. We have only ever changed 2 ID's (wildorchyd to "jadecoin" and mistert5 to "jadecoins") in four years. How do you constitute 2 changes in 4 years as a "constant" change?
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(13) DMWJR SAID: I will certainly admit when I am wrong, and apologize. I didn't think your explanations were enough last August, but I dropped it. Seeing you two guys on that last post attempting to independently verify a situation at a coin show, while sharing the same username, just brought back all of the feelings of duplicitous dealings that I remember from last fall.
So give me some proof. The facts about your user ID's and feedback came right off your feedback pages. The quotes came right off these boards. The date of formation of your LLC came of the State of Michigan's web page. "Part" of your relationship with "earlycoin" came right off of your posts on these boards.
Everytime I read a post you make, I can't help but think about the issues that have been raised in the past regarding your conduct. According to PM's that I have gotten, I'm not alone. That's why I decided to make this post, tell you why I questioned what you do, and give you the opportunity to change my opinion.
So here's your chance whether it is your final post on this or not. I hope you get it all cleared up in one post.
JADE REPLY: We will continue to post on this forum (unless invited to leave by Coin Universe!), but some of your accusations, as explained above, are completely false. I wonder what your true motives are behind libeling our company, and even though you have elsewhere given your full name, it tells nothing about who you are associated with. I just think that anyone reviewing this must question your ulterior motives, which don't seem to have anything to do with proving Jadecoin to be a malicious and deceitful company.
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(14) DMWJR SAID: If one lives in Grand Rapids, Mi and the other lives in St. Louis, MO, what exactly constitutes "out of town"???
JADE REPLY: James was in Kansas City, visiting his brother, and it turns out that Dennis was actually not out of town, but was forbidden from getting on the computer or taking phone-calls from his family during the Easter break!
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(15) FINAL POINT: Jadecoin is currently engaged in fairly large transactions with forum members, both buying and selling. We would like to point out that baseless accusations, especially as shown in points (4), (6), and (11), could easily be seen as slanderous and subject to legal action. It is fine to make accusations, but blatant lies that damage someone's reputation and result in demonstrable financial loss are considered libel.
It's not that we intend to take legal action, but the point is that Doug, like "SEVERAL members", has abused the privilege of posting on this forum by posting lies and dishonest accusations. And in no case do we believe he has given any credible evidence that Jadecoin has participated in any inappropriate activities. None!
We believe many forum members would like to see Doug's presentation of credible evidence that the Jadecoin company is the malicious and deceitful company which he describes. So with that in mind, we offer the next point.
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(16) CONCLUDING PROPOSAL: Our responses are honest and straightforward, and we leave it up to you to decide what to believe. As far as we are concerned, Doug has made several wild accusations which are slanderous in nature, being untruthful and damaging to our reputation. These accusations have been made with no supporting evidence!
The lack of any support for DMWJR's implications that Jade is doing something dishonest or harmful to customers is what is most disturbing to us.
Here is what Jade Coin Co. would like to propose. If anyone is able to provide any credible evidence that Jade Coin Co. has taken advantage of or harmed a customer in any way, we feel some effort on our part at compensation is necessary. Therefore, we would first post a public apology on the first page of our website, and second make out a check in the amount of $500 to the RSH Memorial Foundation in support of pancreatic cancer research, and mail the check to DMWJR Wright, Jr. to be forwarded by him to the Foundation. On the other hand, if such proof cannot be procured within some reasonable amount of time (say 60 days), DMWJR Wright, Jr. will send a like check, made out to RSH Memorial Foundation, to Jade Coin Co., and we will forward his check to the foundation.
This is not an attempt to bribe anyone in any way, and regardless of the outcome, we derive no personal benefit from it, but a worth cause will benefit. But at least, it will give Doug an opportunity to produce some shred of credible evidence that Jadecoin has been involved in any wrongdoing, either legally or ethically. RSH Memorial Foundation is endorsed by other board members in good standing.
Finally, we do not know why Doug and the alleged "SEVERAL members" have targeted Jadecoin for these reckless accusations, but when all is said and done, we hold no grudges against anyone. We just want to show how easy it is to make wild accusations with no support, and it seems to happen a lot on this board. Sorry for the very lengthy post, but Doug brought many issues to the table, practically all of which are false or misleading, and we don't know of any other way to address them.
Sincerely,
jadecoin
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(1) DMWJR SAID: I would have taken this issue into PM format, but there are SEVERAL members who are interested in finding out the truth of past events related to Jadecoin since they have decided to post regularly on the boards.
JADE REPLY: We find it extremely interesting that these "SEVERAL members" have never, ever contacted us about these issues, but decided to contact you instead. Why you? It seems to me that if these "SEVERAL members" were truly interested, they would have gone to the source of the issue, or at least with someone who has done business with us But instead, went to an unrelated third party. Isn't that odd? Even if you can't back up your claim that "SEVERAL members" have an interest in this, we'll still address your points. But before you edited this post, you had claimed that these "SEVERAL members" had PM'd you, did you not?
I note that we have received a few threatening, and downright disgusting phone calls and emails from anonymous sources. Is it possible that the forum members wish to remain anonymous so they can't be connected to the threats? Or is it possible that Doug himself sent us such emails? Giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, we will not check the IP addresses of those emails (which we saved), but be aware that since the phone calls came to our cellular phones, they can easily be traced.
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(2) DMWJR SAID: The facts that started this issue in August, 2002: A board member recognized the 1795 dollar sold at a coin show to Jadecoin, as being doctored and appearing in an Ebay auction with no mention of the doctoring. This auction was under the seller name "earlycoins" and was purportedly a little old lady (Deb) who knew nothing about coins and was selling off her husband's coin collection after he died (Harold). Jadecoin admitted to buying the coin from the board member, having the coin repaired and/or cleaned, and AT'ing it. At this point in time, Jadecoin alleges that they traded the coin to "Deb" and she sold it on Ebay. Jadecoin admitted selling this coin to "earlycoins," and claims he described the "doctoring" to her.
JADE REPLY: Here are the correct facts: (1) We bought the 1795 dollar knowing it was obviously damaged and badly cleaned (as disclosed by the board member), and paid to have it artificially toned so as to be presentable. (The damage was NOT repaired, as that would have required removal of detail, ie. tooling). (2) The coin was in our case for some time, with it's holder clearly labeled as "cleaned/artificially retoned" and priced $50 above the original cost plus the cost of the artificial toning (as I recall). It is, and has always been our policy to disclose any known problems, and anyone on this board who has seen our display at a show can vouch that damaged or altered coins are clearly labeled as being "NET" graded. (3) The problems of the 1795 dollar were described to the recipient, and how it is advertised after that point is something we have no control over. But all problems were duly disclosed, per our policy. (4) The 1795 dollar was part of a cash-plus-coins trade for a portion of coins in the estate, consisting almost exclusively of Colonials. We did this because we were just starting out, and did not have nearly the cash outlay necessary to buy the coins outright. Again, anybody who has seen us regularly at shows realizes that at some point, we suddenly had a lot of Colonials. That his how we got them.
(2a) Regarding the issue of whether or not we disclose problems with coins, allow me to reiterate what I said in another thread:
Here are four real live examples of how we stand behind our commitment:
In the listing of the Fugio, we said this:
"We grade this coin as VG-8"
"There are some natural planchet flaws and the coin has, in our opinion been cleaned at one time"
For the 1806 half, certified by ANACS as F-12, we said this:
"ANACS, while usually accurate with their grading, will occasionally make a mistake."
"This coin should be removed from the holder and labeled ..........a VG coin that has been cleaned."
These comments are in reference to a coin certified by a top service!
For the 1823 half, we said:
"While the coin has EF details there are a couple of distractions that warrant a lower grade."
"The biggest flaw is the gouge in the field in front of Ms. Liberty"
And finally, for the 1825 half, we said this:
"we grade as F-12. It has strong VF details, but it has been polished and probably retoned to hide the cleaning"
"trust me, this is a damaged coin"
You can verifiy this by looking at this link: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=earlyus&include=0&since=30
Furthermore, if you look through our website, you will find several examples of coins with their problems clearly disclosed. If you think this is a sign of dishonesty, then the rest of this discussion won't even matter to you.
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(3) DMWJR SAID: Dennis Tarrant of Jadecoin lives practically in the same neighborhood of Grand Rapids, MI with Deb Greenman. And they obviously know each other because of the transaction listed above.
JADE REPLY: Obviously, this is true, since "Deb" contacted Dennis through his yellow-pages ad, which is the largest one in the Grand Rapids phone book. Technically, Dennis lives some distance from "Deb", but the phone book is distributed throughout the G. R. metro area.
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(4) DMWJR SAID: James Garcia of Jadecoin admits that he enhances coins alot of the time, hires a coin doctor to do some repairs, and AT's the coins himself to make them look right. The people behind "earlycoins" are in serious doubt as to credibility, and whether are not they are in cahoots with Jadecoin.
JADE REPLY: This statement contains a blatant lie, which we consider slanderous. Doug has made a false accusation with nothing whatsoever to support this claim. There is a single instance that I can remember when we had a coin sent in for repair, and it came back somewhat too dark from the artificial toning. A simple wipe removed some of the dark crud, but to accuse James Garcia of "enhances coins alot of the time" is an outrageous lie that you should be ashamed of. Again, we repeat that we will always disclose any known problem with a coin, including repairs and artificial tone. That has been our policy since day one.
It is certainly true that we have sent coins in for repair, and we'll continue to do so, but such repairs are always disclosed.
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(5) DMWJR SAID: When asked, Deb Greenman admitted that the coin wasn't really a part of dead Harold's "collection," but a part of his "estate" since allegedly traded some of dead Harold's coins for the coin in question.
JADE REPLY: We cannot answer to this issue. Can you support this? Did you communicate with "Deb"?
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(6) DMWJR SAID: As of March, 2003, "earlycoins" is still selling the same type of coins in the same manner, as a little old lady who alleges to know nothing about coins. All coins sold by Jadecoin and Earlycoins were of the same genre and uncertified.
JADE REPLY: Again, this is a false statement. We sell many certified coins, and again, any forum member who has seen us at recent shows can vouch that approximately 1/4 of our inventory is certified coins. Practically all of what we stock is Colonials or pre-Civil War material, which most often is not certified anyway. We do not generally deal in paper money, high-grade Lincoln cents, gold bullion type coins, or foreign coins, which is what most of "Earlycoin's" feedback seems to be comprised of.
If you look under our recent ebay listings, you will see that one of the coins is certified by ANACS. It is a lie to claim that "All coins sold by Jadecoin ... were uncertified". It just isn't reasonable to look through Earlcoin listings, which also seem to contain non-coin items, and draw a parallel to our coin listings, even if such a parallel existed.
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(7) DMWJR SAID: Jadecoin said they have no relationship with Earlycoins, but now Jadecoin's website is www.earlyUScoins.com.
JADE REPLY: Again, both of these statements are false. Please show where we disclaimed any relationship with Earlycoins! We freely admit to buying and trading coins with "Earlycoin". Our website is EarlyUS.com (not "earlyUScoins"), and has been so only for some months. For the prior 3 years, though, it was "www.cjade.com", a very different name.
Again, there is just no parallel here.
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(8) DMWJR SAID: Quote by Dennis Tarrant and James Garcia from the dispute last August: Finally, it's laughable to imply that we've hidden our selling activity on ebay! We originally sold under two separate handles and our individual feedback is perfect! Dennis and I merged companies a couple of years ago, thus the merged feedback that someone mentioned. AND we voluntarily unregistered our account per ebay procedures. To put it bluntly, we LOST money selling on ebay, which is why we bailed on it.
Jadecoin History of ID's on Ebay:
James Garcia operating under "Wildorchyd" from 2-22-99 to 8-30-99, "user merged with Jadecoin"
Dennis Tarrant operating under "Jadecoin" from 3-15-99 to 3/9/02 (user suspended)
Dennis Tarrant also operating under "Jadecoins" from 4-7-99 to 11-11-99; user merged, but don't know with whom
Gap of activity from 3-9-02 to 12-12-02 (suspension period maybe?)
Tarrant and Garcia currently operating under "earlyUS" from 12-12-02 to present
Latest Quote from Garcia andTarrant:
Eventually we decided to meet at a Chicago area show for a formal reunion and we started buying and selling coins together. Rather quickly, we decided that we should start a coin company. We formed Jade Coin Co, LLC in 1999. James came up with the name: "JA" for James and "DE" for Dennis. It could have been "Deja Coin Co", but that had a funny ring to it.. We merged our personal collections together to form our initial stock. It was a very modest and unpretentious inventory, to say the least!
You were using the "Jadecoin" Ebay handle as of 3-15-00, which means "James and Dennis," so you knew that you were doing business together.
Further, you didn't set up Jade Coin Company, LLC as a registered Michigan LLC until August 29, 2000, a year and a half after you were doing business on Ebay as "jadecoin."
Between March 15, 1999 and August 3, 1999, you guys left the following feedback to yourselves:
Apr-20-99 1:18:37 PST
Praise: quick transaction, coins were much better than described, recommended very highly!
Apr-26-99 03:43:25 PST 91488600
Praise : Top gentleman, scholar, businessman. Much depth/breadth of numismatic knowledge!
Apr-26-99 08:23:59 PST 91488600
Praise: SUPERIOR customer, extraordinary coin savvy, a definite pleasure to deal with
May-12-99 02:58:18 PST
Praise: Truly a phenomenal customer, recognizes excellence in coin quality and packaging
Aug-03-99 05:49:46 PST
Praise: delivered coin in person, PHENOMENAL SELLER, eBay's BEST, Thanks Dennis!
Before you go nuts, this is all public information gained through your selling pages on EBay, and the public records on-line from the State of Michigan.
Please explain, and clarify any points I have gotten wrong.
JADE REPLY: Everything you stated in this point seems absolutely true, as were our responses. But it just doesn't seem real condemning, even af first glance. At the time when James was using "Wildorchyd" and Dennis was using "MisterT5" to buy and sell coins on ebay, they had had no contact since graduating from the same high school - IN 1986! In fact, contact was not re-established until 1999 - when James sold a coin to Dennis, and they realized upon exchanging addresses that they knew each other. This is a completely true story.
We decided to start a coin company - a dream we had both had in high school. "wildorchyd" became "jadecoin", and "mistert5" became "jadecoins". For a while, we used one handle to buy coins, and the other handle to sell. We later merged our feedback (which took nearly a year on ebay) and continued to buy and sell coins as a merged "jadecoins". Not mentioned in DMWJR's research is that James had another handle, "jade_cc", which was also merged.
When the "EarlyUS" website became available, all of our handles were voluntarily un-register, and we registered a new name, "EarlyUS". The only reason we did this was to create a "clean break" for our new company. The gap of activity from 3/9/02 to 12/12/02 surprises me, but I guess that we were so busy with shows and getting the company going that we just didn't have time for ebay. Even now, we do very little volume there, and it is not a significant source of revenue for us. Overall, we definitely lose money on ebay.
What is most ironic of all is that ALL of the feedback our accounts shows is postive (except a couple converted to "neutral" due to unregistered sellers). That's 550 postives, and zero negatives! In short, there is nothing shocking at all about our ebay activity, and frankly, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
(8a) In addition, I would like to point out something regarding ebay. We both very often receive phone calls from people who have small collections or material that does not fit out niche in the market. In many instances, these people do not trust coin dealers, or it's a situation where that person will end up getting a very small value for the collection after the dealer takes out his commission. We have no qualms about suggesting that they sell the coins on ebay themselves. Usually, this happens during actual appraisal of an estate, where we realize that the client's best interest lies in selling the coins himself.
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JADE NOTE: The following are additional accusations posted by DMWJR in other threads.
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(9) DMWJR SAID: DEB GREENMAN DEB GREENMAN DEB GREENMAN Jadecoin, I pulled this off your site on the Q&A page: Q: What if I send one of your coins in and it gets body-bagged?
As long as you're within the twenty-five day window, you'll be just fine. We'll gladly refund the price of the coin. Unfortunately, we cannot possibly refund certification fees, but let's face it. Certification services make mistakes either way. We don't demand additional money in the case where one of our coins comes back to certified to a higher grade! In actuality, even if it falls some time after the twenty-five days, we would buy the coin back if it just obviously has a problem that we missed out on. We can honestly say that, to our knowledge, we have never "stuck" a collector with a coin he didn't want.
If you sold an altered, colored, or tooled coin that was not "obvious," would it be your mistake? If it was your mistake, would you only make good on it within 25 days? I seem to recall you were selling coins under bogus stories last August, and several members came forward and provided proof that the coins you were selling had been altered and the auctions made no mention of it. Do those people only have 25 days to uncover the truth about a coin you sell?
It really makes it hard for me to sit here and read your "high road" posts, and your self lauding posts by two people under the same username.
JADE REPLY: We quote this because it was the post that initiated this whole controversy. Doug, please show where "several members came forward and provided proof that the coins you were selling had been altered and the auctions made no mention of it". Again, you act like there is some secret society of forum members who are investigating Jadecoin for criminal activity - yet you never provided a shred of evidence! If there are some board members who just don't like, or don't trust Jadecoin, that is something that we can't control, nor would we try. I don't think you can name one single dealer in the whole country where somebody on this board doesn't like them.
To the "several board members" that Doug is referring to, now is the time and place to come forward and back up these claims with some kind of proof.
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(10) DMWJR SAID: Typically businesses use a Q&A format to answer "common" questions that customers ask, so that they don't have to respond to that question everytime it is asked, i.e., "common."
What reputable coin dealer would be interested in posting a Q&A on the following questions?
Q: I only like certified coins, PCGS, NGC. All of your coins are raw. What about that?
Q: What if a coin I buy from you turns color, or has a problem that doesn't show up until months later? What then?
Q: I saw a coin on your sight where the grade is way off!
Q: What if I send one of your coins in and it gets body-bagged?
I don't know of another dealer who asks and answers themselves about these types of questions. I certainly didn't find this on the DLRC site.
JADE REPLY: We are trying to set ourselves apart from the "typical, common" dealers you talked about, by formatting our information in an engaging format. I do not see how this format makes up unreputable! Are you trying to claim that customers do not ask these questions? Again, what are you attempting to prove here?
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(11) DMWJR SAID: there are certain implied warranties that are beyond the scope of return periods and "buyer beware" theories. Those should be "honored" even if beyond a stated return period. What Jade's policy says is that they won't do it.
JADE REPLY: Here is another quote directly from our website: [a problem] actually has happened to a high-dollar Lincoln cent we sold. After several months, it turned dark. We bought the coin back. In a situation like that, it was obvious that we failed to recognize a problem with the coin, so it was not a problem for us to want to do the right thing.
And another direct quote from the same page is this: In actuality, even if it falls some time after the twenty-five days, we would buy the coin back if it just obviously has a problem that we missed out on
The fact (which in all fairness, DMWJR had no awareness of) is that of the six coins that have ever been returned to us, all six returns were accepted AFTER the 25 day return period had been exhausted. But Doug has tried to claim that we would lock our customers into faulty coins, and that is totally untrue. We would go to great lengths to right a wrong that we've committed, if a coin turned out to have an unknown problem.
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(12) DMWJR SAID: Jadecoin, you have sold coins and bought from yourself under four different usernames on EBay. This last one you point out is new started less than six months ago. You have been doing business for several years on EBay and constantly change your seller ID. Why is that?
JADE REPLY: It's explained above in point (8). But to say that we "constantly" change our seller ID's is, again, a false statement, just an outright lie. We have only ever changed 2 ID's (wildorchyd to "jadecoin" and mistert5 to "jadecoins") in four years. How do you constitute 2 changes in 4 years as a "constant" change?
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(13) DMWJR SAID: I will certainly admit when I am wrong, and apologize. I didn't think your explanations were enough last August, but I dropped it. Seeing you two guys on that last post attempting to independently verify a situation at a coin show, while sharing the same username, just brought back all of the feelings of duplicitous dealings that I remember from last fall.
So give me some proof. The facts about your user ID's and feedback came right off your feedback pages. The quotes came right off these boards. The date of formation of your LLC came of the State of Michigan's web page. "Part" of your relationship with "earlycoin" came right off of your posts on these boards.
Everytime I read a post you make, I can't help but think about the issues that have been raised in the past regarding your conduct. According to PM's that I have gotten, I'm not alone. That's why I decided to make this post, tell you why I questioned what you do, and give you the opportunity to change my opinion.
So here's your chance whether it is your final post on this or not. I hope you get it all cleared up in one post.
JADE REPLY: We will continue to post on this forum (unless invited to leave by Coin Universe!), but some of your accusations, as explained above, are completely false. I wonder what your true motives are behind libeling our company, and even though you have elsewhere given your full name, it tells nothing about who you are associated with. I just think that anyone reviewing this must question your ulterior motives, which don't seem to have anything to do with proving Jadecoin to be a malicious and deceitful company.
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(14) DMWJR SAID: If one lives in Grand Rapids, Mi and the other lives in St. Louis, MO, what exactly constitutes "out of town"???
JADE REPLY: James was in Kansas City, visiting his brother, and it turns out that Dennis was actually not out of town, but was forbidden from getting on the computer or taking phone-calls from his family during the Easter break!
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(15) FINAL POINT: Jadecoin is currently engaged in fairly large transactions with forum members, both buying and selling. We would like to point out that baseless accusations, especially as shown in points (4), (6), and (11), could easily be seen as slanderous and subject to legal action. It is fine to make accusations, but blatant lies that damage someone's reputation and result in demonstrable financial loss are considered libel.
It's not that we intend to take legal action, but the point is that Doug, like "SEVERAL members", has abused the privilege of posting on this forum by posting lies and dishonest accusations. And in no case do we believe he has given any credible evidence that Jadecoin has participated in any inappropriate activities. None!
We believe many forum members would like to see Doug's presentation of credible evidence that the Jadecoin company is the malicious and deceitful company which he describes. So with that in mind, we offer the next point.
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(16) CONCLUDING PROPOSAL: Our responses are honest and straightforward, and we leave it up to you to decide what to believe. As far as we are concerned, Doug has made several wild accusations which are slanderous in nature, being untruthful and damaging to our reputation. These accusations have been made with no supporting evidence!
The lack of any support for DMWJR's implications that Jade is doing something dishonest or harmful to customers is what is most disturbing to us.
Here is what Jade Coin Co. would like to propose. If anyone is able to provide any credible evidence that Jade Coin Co. has taken advantage of or harmed a customer in any way, we feel some effort on our part at compensation is necessary. Therefore, we would first post a public apology on the first page of our website, and second make out a check in the amount of $500 to the RSH Memorial Foundation in support of pancreatic cancer research, and mail the check to DMWJR Wright, Jr. to be forwarded by him to the Foundation. On the other hand, if such proof cannot be procured within some reasonable amount of time (say 60 days), DMWJR Wright, Jr. will send a like check, made out to RSH Memorial Foundation, to Jade Coin Co., and we will forward his check to the foundation.
This is not an attempt to bribe anyone in any way, and regardless of the outcome, we derive no personal benefit from it, but a worth cause will benefit. But at least, it will give Doug an opportunity to produce some shred of credible evidence that Jadecoin has been involved in any wrongdoing, either legally or ethically. RSH Memorial Foundation is endorsed by other board members in good standing.
Finally, we do not know why Doug and the alleged "SEVERAL members" have targeted Jadecoin for these reckless accusations, but when all is said and done, we hold no grudges against anyone. We just want to show how easy it is to make wild accusations with no support, and it seems to happen a lot on this board. Sorry for the very lengthy post, but Doug brought many issues to the table, practically all of which are false or misleading, and we don't know of any other way to address them.
Sincerely,
jadecoin
0
Comments
- jadecoin
I've met these guys at shows and although I haven't yet bought a coin from them I hope I get the chance someday.
fixed linkie for jade's ebay auctions
These guys have always treated me right, and several of my collector friends. Sorry Doug, hate to ruin your day by not jumping on your ridiculous bandwagon of negativity!
There was blood in the water again, and jadecoin just DESSIMATED it!
We haven't had a good witch hunt in some time people. Someone find us a seller who can't defend themself with experince, fact and history as jadecoin has done here. It was a good try, but obviously, this was a bad choice for burning at the stake. We need someone clueless, deceptive, or just plain defenseless....not an honest, reputable dealer like jadecoin.
Come on people, I know you have it in you. I've seen it before....DIG DEEP!!!! We need BLOOD!!!!!
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>Someone find us a seller who can't defend themself >>
Lets go after Wondercoin, he has a Frankie he wont sell me!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I made no material edits to the post. They did PM me. If the other board members want to PM you or post, I’m sure they will. I certainly can’t do it for them.
I note that we have received a few threatening, and downright disgusting phone calls and emails from anonymous sources. Is it possible that the forum members wish to remain anonymous so they can't be connected to the threats? Or is it possible that Doug himself sent us such emails? Giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, we will not check the IP addresses of those emails (which we saved), but be aware that since the phone calls came to our cellular phones, they can easily be traced.
Check or trace whatever you want, I never e-mailed you or made any telephone calls to you
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(2) DMWJR SAID: The facts that started this issue in August, 2002: A board member recognized the 1795 dollar sold at a coin show to Jadecoin, as being doctored and appearing in an Ebay auction with no mention of the doctoring. This auction was under the seller name "earlycoins" and was purportedly a little old lady (Deb) who knew nothing about coins and was selling off her husband's coin collection after he died (Harold). Jadecoin admitted to buying the coin from the board member, having the coin repaired and/or cleaned, and AT'ing it. At this point in time, Jadecoin alleges that they traded the coin to "Deb" and she sold it on Ebay. Jadecoin admitted selling this coin to "earlycoins," and claims he described the "doctoring" to her.
JADE REPLY: Here are the correct facts: (1) We bought the 1795 dollar knowing it was obviously damaged and badly cleaned (as disclosed by the board member), and paid to have it artificially toned so as to be presentable. (The damage was NOT repaired, as that would have required removal of detail, ie. tooling). (2) The coin was in our case for some time, with it's holder clearly labeled as "cleaned/artificially retoned" and priced $50 above the original cost plus the cost of the artificial toning (as I recall). It is, and has always been our policy to disclose any known problems, and anyone on this board who has seen our display at a show can vouch that damaged or altered coins are clearly labeled as being "NET" graded. (3) The problems of the 1795 dollar were described to the recipient, and how it is advertised after that point is something we have no control over. But all problems were duly disclosed, per our policy. (4) The 1795 dollar was part of a cash-plus-coins trade for a portion of coins in the estate, consisting almost exclusively of Colonials. We did this because we were just starting out, and did not have nearly the cash outlay necessary to buy the coins outright. Again, anybody who has seen us regularly at shows realizes that at some point, we suddenly had a lot of Colonials. That his how we got them.
You can check the thread here: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=114975&STARTPAGE=4
Some of the comments on that thread from OTHER board members about the 1795 “Deb” auction:
TomB:
Additionally, Shiroh is 100% correct in that the coin he has an image of and the one that is for sale are one in the same. There is absolutely no doubt about that. The only difference is that now the coin has been worked on to make it look less cleaned and to simulate wear patterns. There was nothing innocent about that auction, that was manipulation.
Goose3:
that IS the coin I sold at Central States to a dealer. I think their name was JADE COIN or something like that. I am curious now if this seller is Jade Coin or if someone bought from him!!!!!!!!!
Shiro:
I think I offered $550 and the other guy, I mean, "Deb" offered $625. She, I mean, "he" sold it for over $1150, so I think he, or "she", did OK. I thought $625 was a bit high for the coin, but, then again, I wasn't planning on "de-cleaning" it and offering it on eBay as part of an estate hoax.
Coindaughter:
I must admit that the verbosity in Jade Coin's website is similar to earlycoin's.
Petescorner:
The return address sticker for Deb on the package says it's from zip code 49316, BUT the post mark on the box says it was sent from zip code 49588. When I went back to Jade's web site this morning, all of the Michigan contact information is no longer there (hmm.) But then I remembered that I copied and pasted the Michigan contact info earlier in this thread and the zip code for the Michigan store was 49588, the same as the postmark on Deb's package to me.
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(3) DMWJR SAID: Dennis Tarrant of Jadecoin lives practically in the same neighborhood of Grand Rapids, MI with Deb Greenman. And they obviously know each other because of the transaction listed above.
JADE REPLY: Obviously, this is true, since "Deb" contacted Dennis through his yellow-pages ad, which is the largest one in the Grand Rapids phone book. Technically, Dennis lives some distance from "Deb", but the phone book is distributed throughout the G. R. metro area.
admitted
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(4) DMWJR SAID: James Garcia of Jadecoin admits that he enhances coins alot of the time, hires a coin doctor to do some repairs, and AT's the coins himself to make them look right. The people behind "earlycoins" are in serious doubt as to credibility, and whether are not they are in cahoots with Jadecoin.
JADE REPLY: This statement contains a blatant lie, which we consider slanderous. Doug has made a false accusation with nothing whatsoever to support this claim. There is a single instance that I can remember when we had a coin sent in for repair, and it came back somewhat too dark from the artificial toning. A simple wipe removed some of the dark crud, but to accuse James Garcia of "enhances coins alot of the time" is an outrageous lie that you should be ashamed of. Again, we repeat that we will always disclose any known problem with a coin, including repairs and artificial tone. That has been our policy since day one.
It is certainly true that we have sent coins in for repair, and we'll continue to do so, but such repairs are always disclosed.
Maybe “alot” was too general. How about “some.”
Quote from a “coin conservator’s” site:
Thank you, Allen, for performing such an outstanding job on the detail restoration of the 1800 bust dollar. Ive touched up the toning just a bit to suit the look of the rest of my coins.
James Garcia
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(5) DMWJR SAID: When asked, Deb Greenman admitted that the coin wasn't really a part of dead Harold's "collection," but a part of his "estate" since allegedly traded some of dead Harold's coins for the coin in question.
JADE REPLY: We cannot answer to this issue. Can you support this? Did you communicate with "Deb"?
No, but Dorkkarl did:
1st, she asked me how my dog was doing. i don't have a dog (???) and have never mentioned such a thing to her! then, she apologized and said that "I must admit, Karl, that the final lot of four coins indeed were not from Harold's estate" (no kidding) blah blah, and that they actually belonged to a dealer in DETROIT. "Cliff" allegedly is friends with this dealer and goes to detroit about once a month on business. he told the dealer/friend how well ebay was going, & the dealer asked her to list the dollar with her coins. "deb" rambled on to say that she had not intended for the listing to mislead readers into thinking that it was H's coin, but that in retrospect, she wishes she would have mentioned they it was not actually from his estate. she also claims it was the first time she's listed a coin other than Harold's.
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(6) DMWJR SAID: As of March, 2003, "earlycoins" is still selling the same type of coins in the same manner, as a little old lady who alleges to know nothing about coins. All coins sold by Jadecoin and Earlycoins were of the same genre and uncertified.
JADE REPLY: Again, this is a false statement. We sell many certified coins, and again, any forum member who has seen us at recent shows can vouch that approximately 1/4 of our inventory is certified coins. Practically all of what we stock is Colonials or pre-Civil War material, which most often is not certified anyway. We do not generally deal in paper money, high-grade Lincoln cents, gold bullion type coins, or foreign coins, which is what most of "Earlycoin's" feedback seems to be comprised of.
When all of this was going in August, the first line on your website said:
Welcome to the jädé Coin Company website! We have no signature coins, no colorized coins, no state quarters, no reject coins, no slabs, no grocery carts
Pushkin:
If you go back to her earlier auctions of colonials and early copper, and then look at the Jade Coin Company's early copper offerings - well it sure hints that Harold left a lot of similar copper to Deb and Jade?
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(7) DMWJR SAID: Jadecoin said they have no relationship with Earlycoins, but now Jadecoin's website is www.earlyUScoins.com.
JADE REPLY: Again, both of these statements are false. Please show where we disclaimed any relationship with Earlycoins! We freely admit to buying and trading coins with "Earlycoin". Our website is EarlyUS.com (not "earlyUScoins"), and has been so only for some months. For the prior 3 years, though, it was "www.cjade.com", a very different name.
These were posted on one of the earlier threads from August 2002:
Petescorner:
OK, now the cheese is getting more binding (as they say!) Did you see the email addresses for the jade Coin Company? (both)@earlyUScoins.com?? And what is Deb's ebay id? earlycoins
Hoosierdaddy:
Obviously the Jade guys read the board, since their website had several changes made to it regarding addresses and e-mail addy's over the past 24-hours. All of the "@earlyUScoins.com" addresses have been changed to new "@excite" addresses.
Dakra:
I'm probably going a little overboard but I have to admit This Is Scary! in which Jade Coin says "Dennis suggested that maybe if he wore a grey wig and put on some grandma bifocal glasses..."
She mentioned "ozarks" in the second paragraph "Ozarks" and Jade mentions it too: Ozarks-First Paragraph
Jadecoin – this is feedback from “Deb” . Note the reference “always enjoy buying from this seller”
This feedback was left for Jadecoins by a buyer using the handle of Earlycoins.
"earlycoins (161) Jun-01-00 09:31:25 PST 334187417
Praise : SUPER-SONIC shipping, always enjoy buying from this seller!!!
Response by jadecoin - J-1825-02: 1825 Bust quarter, AG-3"
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(8) Jadecoin History of ID's on Ebay:
James Garcia operating under "Wildorchyd" from 2-22-99 to 8-30-99, "user merged with Jadecoin"
Dennis Tarrant operating under "Jadecoin" from 3-15-99 to 3/9/02 (user suspended)
Dennis Tarrant also operating under "Jadecoins" from 4-7-99 to 11-11-99; user merged, but don't know with whom
Gap of activity from 3-9-02 to 12-12-02 (suspension period maybe?)
Tarrant and Garcia currently operating under "earlyUS" from 12-12-02 to present
You were using the "Jadecoin" Ebay handle as of 3-15-00, which means "James and Dennis," so you knew that you were doing business together. Further, you didn't set up Jade Coin Company, LLC as a registered Michigan LLC until August 29, 2000, a year and a half after you were doing business on Ebay as "jadecoin."
Between March 15, 1999 and August 3, 1999, you guys left the following feedback to yourselves:
Apr-20-99 1:18:37 PST
Praise: quick transaction, coins were much better than described, recommended very highly!
Apr-26-99 03:43:25 PST 91488600
Praise : Top gentleman, scholar, businessman. Much depth/breadth of numismatic knowledge!
Apr-26-99 08:23:59 PST 91488600
Praise: SUPERIOR customer, extraordinary coin savvy, a definite pleasure to deal with
May-12-99 02:58:18 PST
Praise: Truly a phenomenal customer, recognizes excellence in coin quality and packaging
Aug-03-99 05:49:46 PST
Praise: delivered coin in person, PHENOMENAL SELLER, eBay's BEST, Thanks Dennis!
JADE REPLY: Everything you stated in this point seems absolutely true, as were our responses. But it just doesn't seem real condemning, even af first glance. At the time when James was using "Wildorchyd" and Dennis was using "MisterT5" to buy and sell coins on ebay, they had had no contact since graduating from the same high school.
These feedbacks were to Jadecoin and Jadecoins BEFORE your ID’s were merged. You didn’t form “Jadecoin” without knowing the two of you were in business together. That’s an admission. Wildorchyd was James Garcia leaving feedback to “Jadecoin”, which is “JA”mes and “DE”nnis. So James was leaving feedback to himself.
Not mentioned in DMWJR's research is that James had another handle, "jade_cc", which was also merged.
Now, you admit to other IDs: Jade_cc and Mistert5.. That’s six id’s since 99.
Overall, we definitely lose money on ebay.
Why would you continue to do it then?
(12) DMWJR SAID: Jadecoin, you have sold coins and bought from yourself under four different usernames on EBay. This last one you point out is new started less than six months ago. You have been doing business for several years on EBay and constantly change your seller ID. Why is that?
JADE REPLY: It's explained above in point (8). But to say that we "constantly" change our seller ID's is, again, a false statement, just an outright lie. We have only ever changed 2 ID's (wildorchyd to "jadecoin" and mistert5 to "jadecoins") in four years. How do you constitute 2 changes in 4 years as a "constant" change?
That’s six changes, and leaving feedback to and from yourselves.
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JADE REPLY: We will continue to post on this forum (unless invited to leave by Coin Universe!), but some of your accusations, as explained above, are completely false. I wonder what your true motives are behind libeling our company, and even though you have elsewhere given your full name, it tells nothing about who you are associated with. I just think that anyone reviewing this must question your ulterior motives, which don't seem to have anything to do with proving Jadecoin to be a malicious and deceitful company.
You said it was your final post on the issue, and BTW I’m not affiliated with anyone
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(14) DMWJR SAID: If one lives in Grand Rapids, Mi and the other lives in St. Louis, MO, what exactly constitutes "out of town"???
JADE REPLY: James was in Kansas City, visiting his brother, and it turns out that Dennis was actually not out of town, but was forbidden from getting on the computer or taking phone-calls from his family during the Easter break!
So why didn’t you say that instead of lying and saying you were out of town?
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What do you mean by this post?
Wednesday March 12, 2003 10:56 AM
Hi! Here's an image of an 1803 Draped Bust Half that barely grades EF-40, in my opinion. In fact, it really grades only VF-35, but I think the market is ahead of the price guides on coins like this, so we have it priced a bit strongly.
And what’s wrong with the coin?
what's important to me is this: dmwjr is a good guy, & i believe he's sincere. & i also believe jadecoin is a good company, & also sincere.
i think dmwjr really is trying to substantiate that something unethical is going on, but i don't find myself convinced. creepy, probably, unethical, i doubt it. i'm very happy w/ the coins i got, but what happened behind the scenes before they came to me, i don't know, nor do i necessarily care.
the jade boys are trying to show they're completely innocent, again, i don't find myself convinced. sincere, probably, unethical, again, i doubt it.
but i have never met a single coin dealer yet that i thought was immune to scrutiny. i could say the same thing about car dealers, doctors, lawyers, accountants, v-p's, senators, the list goes on & on
1 last point, i don't care much when someone starts tossing about "i'll bet 500 bucks that you can't prove me wrong", blah blah blah. it's like when dragon was trying to prove that i didn't know what i was talking about - because i wouldn't take him up on a bet. get over it, you made your point. time to move on. the old "put up ($) or shut up" just doesn't buy it for me
K S
1) I was very supportive of Deb being legitimate early on. I even put my money where my mouth was and bought over $200 worth of coins from her. My personal check made out to Deb Greenman was cashed accordingly.
2) When Shiro question the doctored coin she was selling, I again stood up for Deb and tried to prove the coins were different. Alas, some very respected forum members PMed me and helped me realize that I was obviously mistaken: the coins were the same, no doubt.
3) Maybe I was feeling a little embarassed by my mistaken belief on the doctored coin, or maybe (like others) I just like it when a good mystery unravels, but I started joining the "Deb is a scam" crowd and even threw in what I now found to be strange similarities.
4) I have since learned more about how Jade Coins operates and have even purchased a coin from them at the FUN show this year.
5) As it stands now, I would do business with Jadecoins in a heartbeat. If Deb had something for sale on eBay (story, or no story) I would still feel comfortable bidding on it.
6) I still like DMWJR and appreciate the others who stick their necks out trying to protect newbies on the internet. (Where were you guys when I bought that 1925-S Buffalo Nickel in an ACG slab?
Sorry, to drag this all out again, but I wouldn't want you all to think I still feel now, the way I did when I posted some things a while back.)
What everyone really wants to know is what Jade did to Doug Jr. to warrant such slanderous allegations.
Doug Jr.: what did Jade do to you. Maybe if you tell us then you won't look like a fool.
I read your post and you made me realize that I should not be so quick to judge and insult Doug. I think, as you do, that Doug is just trying, however feabily, to protect unknowledgeable collectors. You can't fault the guy for that. (sorry for insulting you Doug) In fact, I learned a lot over the past few days. In the past, I was quick to join the witch hunts to destroy dealers. Human nature? More like animal instinct.
I just hope that I have not caused any financial harm to dealers whom I have flamed on this forum in the past. If so.........
I also hope that Doug did not cause any financial losses for Jade Coin Co., Inc. by his allegations that have, in my opinion, been proven false. I have met and really like the guys at Jade Coin. They are some of the good guys out there, like many other dealers on this forum. The scumball dealers would never dare set foot in this forum for fear of being ravaged.
1. Jadecoin admittedly had others tool and repair coins, and that they "retone" coins themselves.
2. Jadecoin admittedly associates with Earlycoins and admits advising them that one particular coin had been "doctored", and that Earlycoins did not disclose this fact when they sold the coin on EBay.
3. Jadecoin says that they only bought and traded with Earlycoin, yet Earlycoins gave them feedback on an auction where Jadecoin SOLD a coin to Earlycoins.
4. No, I didn't say that Jadecoin sells "doctored" coins and doesn't tell their customer.
5. There is an association here between Jadecoin and Earlycoins that bears upon the credibility of Jadecoin.
6. If they want to cast aside the shadow of doubt. Let them refute it.
7. Jadecoin has admitted to using six different EBay seller ID's in the last few years. Why so many ID's?
8. Jadecoin has left positive feedback for themselves using multiple ID's, even after the dates where they formed their business association.
The auction you reference for the1806 is a crappy coin, and crappier than they say it is.
1. The coin has VG details, only on a good day (yes I have photograde and know what a VG half looks like).
2. The coin is damaged, cleaned etc., which makes it less than a VG.
3. From the photo, there is active PVC growing around the stars and LIBERTY (not mentioned in the description).
4. Clearly ANACS had a bad day when they graded this coin. You could never get it in another legitimate slab.
5. This coin is not worth the $175.00 that someone paid for it, so they got "top dollar" for it.
(edited point #2 above for a typo)
I never said that.
Read a couple of posts above....I apologized to you for insulting you, but you sure make it hard not to get mad at you. Just let it go.
Give it a rest - you're giving me a headache.
If you find numismatics too stressful, may I suggest you get yourself a big net and run through a meadow collecting pretty butterflies.
Ok, the Jadecoin threads are dead to me. Believe what you want.
Man! I would love to do that!