In my opinion, trying to quantify quality with any # is never going to be the answer. Can you imagine using a # to describe artworks or antiques? The only use that #'s really have in numismatics is as a shorthand for annotation. That is what I use it for.
If the coin can be examined, there is no need for numerical grades, in fact there is no need for grades at all. The coin can be appreciated by the viewer and if commerce is involved then the buyer and seller can negotiate a price.
The main reason that numerical grading has become popular is because most people have a monetary focus on their collection and want to be able to evaluate it constantly without examination.
Experienced collectors do not have that need. Numismatics need more real collectors, which are unfortunately a small percentage of people that own coins. Collecting is a passion. Registry collections, without the passion, is only ego boosting.
The collectors passion and enthusiasm is the most important part of any collection.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Oh, they'd still be just as inconsistent. But equally inconsistent on a tighter scale. And the averaging of the grade takes out some of the inherent inconsistency. Believe you me, there are some no brainer PQ coins out there that don't quite meet PCGS standards for the next grade up. Don't they deserve the extra half point? Of course, David Hall has stated there's no such thing as a PQ coin. But at FUN he said the Vermuele 73CC was "nicer" than the PCGS MS64. Does that mean he was wrong in his first statement or that the coin is a MS65???
People will ALWAYS debate some grades. People see attributes differently. Personally, a bit of a weak strike has never been an issue for me. I'd grade some coins higher than someone who is anal about strike. But by averaging the grade given by three graders, some of that is taken care of mathematically.
I'm not a statistician but I believe unless the methods for evaluation and determing a grade are improved tightening the scale increases the inconsistency.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
people, you just got to get over this bizarre notion that a grade is inherent to a coin! that it's a stable number. IT IS JUST NOT GONNA HAPPEN! NOT NOW, NOT EVER! why? because a grade is an opinion & NOBODY IS GOD-LIKE ENOUGH that their opinion is "right"! end of story, case closed!
well, I think that the degree of wear, the number of marks, the level of the luster, the state of surface preservation ARE inherent characteristics of a coin. only the overall eye appeal is subjective, and only because different people prefer different balances of the first 4 factors, and probably have several others they use to judge coins.
and I think you CAN form a consistent opinion of a coin by comparing it to other coins, the average looks of each ARE agreed upon by EXPERTS in coin grading, and that THAT value, on a scale of 1-70, IS inherent to the coin and that whatever additional premium a "special" coin earns for eye appeal is the most subjective thing in coin grading, and is always up to an informed buyer and seller.
this is all I will be able to say on the subject until Sunday as there's an out of town wedding, but I want to thank everyone for your insightful replies to this thread, my longest one I ever started! I will look forward to reading everyone's intelligent thoughts when we get back!
<< <i>well, I think that the degree of wear, the number of marks, the level of the luster, the state of surface preservation ARE inherent characteristics of a coin. >>
yes, physical manifestation of the coin is obviously inherent to the coin. but 2 coins can easily have precisely the same metal displacement - & be valued very differently.
<< <i>only the overall eye appeal is subjective >>
... & it is THE most important characteristic! it is the factor that is comprised of the inherent wear & marks, PLUS the location of said marks, color, luster, striking force, etc. etc.
<< <i>you CAN form a consistent opinion of a coin by comparing it to other coins, the average looks of each ARE agreed upon by EXPERTS in coin grading >>
it's the VALUE of the coins that they agree is similar! the grade comes next! that's why it's called "market grading".
there is absolutely no value inherent to a coin whatsoever, other than the face-value. ALL other premiums are purely subjective. SUBJECTIVE!
K S
edited: actually "face value" is subjetive too, but that can-of-worms is labeled "economics"
<< <i>So the ONLY reason for market grading is to get a price from an expert and to make it easy to look up it's price in a guide. >>
I believe Julian said: "If the coin can be examined, there is no need for numerical grades, in fact there is no need for grades at all"
Now you use the term "market grading" that is what Karl just described below. As far as I can tell, today's grading is to simply PRICE the coin. What other reason is there?
thank you dorkkarl and others for continuing to make my point for me, that the grade is derived from the value.
So back to my original question, which was, If we're going to grade coins, in order to measure their "value", and use a number scale, shouldn't there be a more precise way to value coins in that high state, like an in-between grade? MS-65.5's and 67.3's and MS 68.7's? because..,
When an MS66 is "worth" say, $1000 (on the market) and an MS67 sells for, say, $10,000, when one surfaces (because, if the spread is that high, and the next higher whole point causes an exponential price increase, the higher grade must be very rare, right?) how does one judge? by the internet picture? By what the internet dealer tells you?
Yes, I know, it's preferable to inspect each coin in person before making your decision, and yes it's best to be able to grade coins yourself, and yes that's great if you have relationships with dealers you trust who know these things and do the work for you and don't charge you too much (in the form of markups) for the service.
But is that realistic, the way things are going? more and more trades are done sight picture-seen, of slabbed coins, and for the higher end material, it seems that a more precise third party opinion of the grade would add value.
Wouldn't "half-grades" help with the constant crack-out/resubmission/second-guessing/complaining about not crossing/upgrading/getting the points that the submitters want?
Wouldn't it be better to be able to use the whole range between 66.0 and 67.0 do describe such a coin. And doesn't that caliber of coin deserve a better evaluation and analysis of it's strike, luster, marks, surface preservation and originality, and overall eye appeal than a whole number?
baley, a most invaluable post, i would like to take a stab at answering.
the problem w/ your premise of such precision in grades is that the grade of a particular coin DOES CHANGE over time. ie. your trying to hit a randomly moving target w/ precision, & it just can't be done.
look at it this way, in an ideal numismatic world:
supose a coin has only 2 known uncs, a pop 1 in ms-63 @ value of $1000 & pop 1 in ms-65 @ $10,000. suddenly, a hoard of 1000 of the same coin is found, & 99% of them look exactly like the ms-65 coin. the value in ms-65 drops to $300, ms-63 drops back to $100.
what has happened here? yes, the GRADES of the 2 original coins has changed!!! because the coin's values have changed. the old standard for "ms-65" needs to be revised so that such a disproporitonate number of the coins no longer grade ms-65, otherwise, the ms-63's would be far, far more rare than the ms-65's.
so the fundamental problem w/ any kind of precision of grading coins is two-fold:
(1) grading is an opinion, it is purely, 100% w/out question, no doubt about it, SUBJECTIVE (2) grades are TIME-SENSITIVIE, what grades ms-65 may well grade different tomorrow.
<< <i>Yes, I know, it's preferable to inspect each coin in person before making your decision >>
the decision involves (or SHOULD involve) much more than that. not only must you inspect the coin in person, you need a body of past experience to know how the coin in question falls within the population of coins known to you!
<< <i>... and yes it's best to be able to grade coins yourself, and yes that's great if you have relationships with dealers you trust who know these things and do the work for you and don't charge you too much (in the form of markups) for the service. But is that realistic >>
YES, absolutely! that is why i am an eac member, because i can rely on certain friends' experience in deciding whether a certain coin is PQ (truly PQ, not the way "PQ" is abused by advertisers).
bottom line is, slabs are fine, great for "generic" grading, coins etc. the real key to numismatic success is viewing literally thousands upon thousands of coins, forming a mental picture of what is average for a series, & what is really, truly premium quality. you could have a hundred common-date seated quarters in XF, but there'll be that one XF coin that is just so mark-free, so evenly colored & so sharply struck that it just stands out, it's the right 1 to pick up, it's the 1 that's worth well over retail, because it is special. i contend that all it takes to be able to seek out such coins is patience.
<< <i>Wouldn't "half-grades" help with the constant crack-out/resubmission/second-guessing/complaining about not crossing/upgrading/getting the points that the submitters want? >>
absolutley not, it would worsen the problem considerabley. instead of having 10 unc grades to complain about, there woudl be 20.
here's the real bottom line: when you like a coin, really really like it, the price does not matter.. i've repeated this statement many times, & it never fails to hold for me. if you are true to yourself, honest & willing to have patience to view thousands of coins, & learn what you really, really like, the appreciation you will have for the really, really NICE coins (the ones you really really like!) will pay you dividends that far exceed the values in pricing structures, grey-sheets, blue-sheets, etc.
BUY THE COINS YOU REALLY LIKE, the grade is a very secondary issue.
Yes, grading a coin is "appraising" a coin. You are giving it a value. BUT the problem lies in the accuracy of who is grading. How many zillions of times have we seen a coin taken from dealer to dealer to collector etc etc and get numerous different grades from each? With the "opinion" all over the place (ie the accuracy) you CANNOT use a more precise scale.
Think of it this way. If you measured some quantity (say, temperature) that is well known to be something you can't measure more accurately than to the nearest 5 degrees. What would be the point of using a scale that had a one-tenths of a decimal place? Calling the measurement 78.2 degrees is meaningless if you can't tell if the measurement is 80 degrees or 75 degrees. This is something I learned in chemistry and physics classes years ago. Accruacy and precision are NOT the same thing....
when you like a coin, really really like it, the price does not matter
with this I do happen to disagree, because the price is a factor in how much I really really like it!
<--------- this coin, I really, really like (even love!) at $5,000, think is pretty nice at $7,500, just ok at $10k, and a terrible coin at $20K, and I absolutely hate this coin at $30K, so much that I must sell it immediately if (when) offered that price!
thank you for your thoughtful comments, please understand that I am hoping for a more detailed breakdown from my third party grader, for my high end coins, as to what their expert opinion is to the coin's strike, luster, marks, state of surface preservation, and eye appeal, that's all. I would find that more useful for my grading fee than a simple holder and one whole number between 1 and 70.
I believe I'll get it someday, in the form of a higher level of service, and I will use that opinion as a tool (not the only one) for forming my own opinion and collecting choices. And when the time comes to sell, I hope that my best coins will be in these premium holders, and allow me to receive top dollar.
Hi Jom, i like your reference to accuracy vs precision, and let me clarify, I'm not looking for JUST more decimal places, such as MS-64.875.
Rather, I'd like to see a slab that says, for example:
1893-S.................S$1 Net........MS-64.8 Strike MS 64 Luster MS 65 Marks MS 63 Wear MS 64 Toning MS 67 Eye Appeal MS 66
or
1793.........Chain.......1c. Net...... VF-37 Wear/Details......VF30 Strike.....80% full Marks ...consistent VF/EF Surfaces: smooth brown Originality: 95% Eye appeal: EF
I don't miss the decimal in the MS grades- some of those splits are too tiny as it is.
It's on the other end of the scale that we need an additional decimal place. I just got an 1806 quarter that's almost a Good. Can't quite call it G4, though, and plain ol' AG3 doesn't sound fair. "AG3 PQ" is a bit of an oxymoron. What do you do for a coin that's on the borderline between these two grades? What sounds better, "a strong AG", or "a weak Good"? Then there are coins on the border between Fair and AG... or Poor and Fair... but maybe nobody cares.
<< <i>"when you like a coin, really really like it, the price does not matter" with this I do happen to disagree, because the price is a factor in how much I really really like it! this coin, I really, really like ... at $5,000 ... and I absolutely hate this coin at $30K >>
the key is, that you happen to like keeping your money MORE than you like the coin. that's the "be honest w/ yourself" part of the philosophy.
consider: when you think you'd really like to buy a certain widget, but decide the price is too "high" , are you now saying you don't like the widget? no, what you are saying is that, at that point in time, you like your money more.
i tell ya, the philosophy works for me, & it is only when i've tried to work around it, or in spite of it, that ive gotten hosed.
I don't think the time has come. They will/won't do it not based on what I say, though. If they do it will make MS grading a whole lot more complicated. Grading may also cost more because it takes longer to determine MS 64.2 vs 64.3. If they don't spend extra time on that determination you won't have gotten anything for your money except an extra decimal point that doesn't mean anything.
once again, no one is advocating splitting hairs for common coins in common grades.
the decimal point is only needed when there is a HUGE spread between grades, such as MS65-MS66 for $20 libs and rare date morgans, and high MS grades of early type.
If they're willing to do it and you're willing to pay for it, whatever. It just seems that there is enough inconsistancy in grading that it would get worse with an extra decimal. The fact that the crackout game works means that the grading is somewhat inconsistant. Put the question on the ask HRH forum.
I think a lot of the perceived "inconsistency" is due to the fact that the graders are forced to make a decision based on whole integers, and sometimes it's a 65 and sometimes it's a 66.
Maybe if 65.5 was allowed, there'd be more consistency!
I think a simple solution for PCGS would be to use the "star" system that NGC has started using for "high-end" for the grade coins. If a coin is high end for the grade a knowledgable collector/dealer will know this. But an inexperienced collector will not. But changing the Sheldon system from its current use would probably just cause alot of confusion. Where as the star system would let the inexperienced know that they have a high end coin for the designated grade, and when they go to sell the coin they should expect a premium. Also they should expect to pay a premium. Possibly the premium for a high end "star" graded coin would be set by the market at maybe 10%?
But this is just a thought, and my personal opinion.
<< <i>The NGC star is for outstanding eye appeal, not to designate high end for the grade. There is a distinct difference between the two concepts. >>
Like I said in my original post, I don't collect NGC coins, and wasn't aware that their "star" system was just for coins with eye appeal.
I was just trying to think of a simple way to help the "new" collectors, (or those that are not very good at grading), and don't know a high end coin from one that just barely made the assigned grade, without trying to make it even more expensive to have a coin graded.
If you used the "10" people grading system that has been suggested here it would cost you 5-10x what it does now to submit a coin for grading, and you could forget about having some of the coins that have populations in th e "billions" of being graded at all. Someone, (PCGS/NGC), would have to pay those extra 6-7 graders a decent salary. That would raise the cost of submissions substantially. That is why I suggested something "similar" to the star system. But I wouldn't want the star system that I am suggesting to just use that system for grading on "eye appeal" alone. I would want it to take in all factors of grading a coin. But again this is just my humble opinion!
If you used the "10" people grading system that has been suggested here it would cost you 5-10x what it does now to submit a coin for grading, and you could forget about having some of the coins that have populations in th e "billions" of being graded at all. Someone, (PCGS/NGC), would have to pay those extra 6-7 graders a decent salary. That would raise the cost of submissions substantially
Exactly. Once again, it only makes sense to do it for very expensive high grade coins, where there are huge price differences for one whole point, not your run of the mill coins where grading to a whole point is just fine. And yes, the submission would be expensive, probably $250, so it would only make sense if the coin was valued at, say $2000 or more, or if the half point differential was more than the grading fee.
I was just trying to think of a simple way to help the "new" collectors, (or those that are not very good at grading), and don't know a high end coin from one that just barely made the assigned grade, without trying to make it even more expensive to have a coin graded.
And these are not the kind of coins newbies are buying (or should be buying) we are talking about very high end coins that would be a lot more liquid if they were accurately graded.
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
Anyway, isn't this just another way for people to try to add value to their coins so they can ask more for them like grade designations ?
Example; if a 65 barber half is worth $2500 and a 64 is worth $1000 a 64.6 should easily be worth $1600 if it says 64.6 on the slab ??? BLAH!!!
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
I'd rather take my chances trying to cherry pick a dealer then getting a good deal from a coin that squeezes the last tenth out in the grade on the slab.
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
But once you cherry pick your dealer, and buy, say, a PQ 65+ coin in a 65 slab, what good does that do you unless, when you go to sell it, you can convince the potential buyer that is is not a run-of-the-mill 65?
if you could submit the coin under this $250 tier, get that half point that's worth $600, why on earth would you not?
I think it is a great idea. I especially like Adrian's input and could see a larger average grade being assigned from 8 to ten independent graders.
As for the decimal system only PCGS is in a position to do anything now as NGC and ANACS still miss grades by leaps and bounds. Giving the lesser services an option to use decimals between say a 64 and a 65 is irrelevant, as they would still call it a 66! LOL
Quality, accuracy and consistency is only possible when the criteria and standards are precisely defined and where tools (equally sensitive and identically calibrated) are available to accurately measure those precisely defined criteria. There are no such precisely defined criteria (standards) with respect to grading and the tools used to "make the measurements" are not equally sensitve or identically calibrated. Toss in the subjective factors and you are woefully short of accuracy on the level of tens of points as far as grading is concerned (IMHO).
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
<< <i>If you used the "10" people grading system that has been suggested here it would cost you 5-10x what it does now to submit a coin for grading, and you could forget about having some of the coins that have populations in th e "billions" of being graded at all. Someone, (PCGS/NGC), would have to pay those extra 6-7 graders a decent salary. That would raise the cost of submissions substantially
Exactly. Once again, it only makes sense to do it for very expensive high grade coins, where there are huge price differences for one whole point, not your run of the mill coins where grading to a whole point is just fine. And yes, the submission would be expensive, probably $250, so it would only make sense if the coin was valued at, say $2000 or more, or if the half point differential was more than the grading fee.
I was just trying to think of a simple way to help the "new" collectors, (or those that are not very good at grading), and don't know a high end coin from one that just barely made the assigned grade, without trying to make it even more expensive to have a coin graded.
And these are not the kind of coins newbies are buying (or should be buying) we are talking about very high end coins that would be a lot more liquid if they were accurately graded. >>
That makes since if your just talking about coins like this one.
Comments
If the coin can be examined, there is no need for numerical grades, in fact there is no need for grades at all. The coin can be appreciated by the viewer and if commerce is involved then the buyer and seller can negotiate a price.
The main reason that numerical grading has become popular is because most people have a monetary focus on their collection and want to be able to evaluate it constantly without examination.
Experienced collectors do not have that need. Numismatics need more real collectors, which are unfortunately a small percentage of people that own coins. Collecting is a passion. Registry collections, without the passion, is only ego boosting.
The collectors passion and enthusiasm is the most important part of any collection.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Oh, they'd still be just as inconsistent. But equally inconsistent on a tighter scale. And the averaging of the grade takes out some of the inherent inconsistency. Believe you me, there are some no brainer PQ coins out there that don't quite meet PCGS standards for the next grade up. Don't they deserve the extra half point? Of course, David Hall has stated there's no such thing as a PQ coin. But at FUN he said the Vermuele 73CC was "nicer" than the PCGS MS64. Does that mean he was wrong in his first statement or that the coin is a MS65???
People will ALWAYS debate some grades. People see attributes differently. Personally, a bit of a weak strike has never been an issue for me. I'd grade some coins higher than someone who is anal about strike. But by averaging the grade given by three graders, some of that is taken care of mathematically.
<< <i>If the coin can be examined, there is no need for numerical grades, in fact there is no need for grades at all. >>
Exactly....
jom
"But equally inconsistent on a tighter scale."
I'm not a statistician but I believe unless the methods for evaluation and determing a grade are improved tightening the scale increases the inconsistency.
K S
and I think you CAN form a consistent opinion of a coin by comparing it to other coins, the average looks of each ARE agreed upon by EXPERTS in coin grading, and that THAT value, on a scale of 1-70, IS inherent to the coin and that whatever additional premium a "special" coin earns for eye appeal is the most subjective thing in coin grading, and is always up to an informed buyer and seller.
this is all I will be able to say on the subject until Sunday as there's an out of town wedding, but I want to thank everyone for your insightful replies to this thread, my longest one I ever started! I will look forward to reading everyone's intelligent thoughts when we get back!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>If the coin can be examined, there is no need for numerical grades, in fact there is no need for grades at all. >>
Exactly....
jom >>
So the ONLY reason for market grading is to get a price from an expert and
to make it easy to look up it's price in a guide.
<< <i>well, I think that the degree of wear, the number of marks, the level of the luster, the state of surface preservation ARE inherent characteristics of a coin. >>
yes, physical manifestation of the coin is obviously inherent to the coin. but 2 coins can easily have precisely the same metal displacement - & be valued very differently.
<< <i>only the overall eye appeal is subjective >>
... & it is THE most important characteristic! it is the factor that is comprised of the inherent wear & marks, PLUS the location of said marks, color, luster, striking force, etc. etc.
<< <i>you CAN form a consistent opinion of a coin by comparing it to other coins, the average looks of each ARE agreed upon by EXPERTS in coin grading >>
it's the VALUE of the coins that they agree is similar! the grade comes next! that's why it's called "market grading".
there is absolutely no value inherent to a coin whatsoever, other than the face-value. ALL other premiums are purely subjective. SUBJECTIVE!
K S
edited: actually "face value" is subjetive too, but that can-of-worms is labeled "economics"
<< <i>So the ONLY reason for market grading is to get a price from an expert and to make it easy to look up it's price in a guide.
>>
I believe Julian said: "If the coin can be examined, there is no need for numerical grades, in fact there is no need for grades at all"
Now you use the term "market grading" that is what Karl just described below. As far as I can tell, today's grading is to simply PRICE the coin. What other reason is there?
jom
<< <i>As far as I can tell, today's grading is to simply PRICE the coin. What other reason is there? >>
There's that blasted registry as well.
So back to my original question, which was, If we're going to grade coins, in order to measure their "value", and use a number scale, shouldn't there be a more precise way to value coins in that high state, like an in-between grade? MS-65.5's and 67.3's and MS 68.7's? because..,
When an MS66 is "worth" say, $1000 (on the market) and an MS67 sells for, say, $10,000, when one surfaces (because, if the spread is that high, and the next higher whole point causes an exponential price increase, the higher grade must be very rare, right?) how does one judge? by the internet picture? By what the internet dealer tells you?
Yes, I know, it's preferable to inspect each coin in person before making your decision, and yes it's best to be able to grade coins yourself, and yes that's great if you have relationships with dealers you trust who know these things and do the work for you and don't charge you too much (in the form of markups) for the service.
But is that realistic, the way things are going? more and more trades are done sight picture-seen, of slabbed coins, and for the higher end material, it seems that a more precise third party opinion of the grade would add value.
Wouldn't "half-grades" help with the constant crack-out/resubmission/second-guessing/complaining about not crossing/upgrading/getting the points that the submitters want?
Wouldn't it be better to be able to use the whole range between 66.0 and 67.0 do describe such a coin. And doesn't that caliber of coin deserve a better evaluation and analysis of it's strike, luster, marks, surface preservation and originality, and overall eye appeal than a whole number?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
the problem w/ your premise of such precision in grades is that the grade of a particular coin DOES CHANGE over time. ie. your trying to hit a randomly moving target w/ precision, & it just can't be done.
look at it this way, in an ideal numismatic world:
supose a coin has only 2 known uncs, a pop 1 in ms-63 @ value of $1000 & pop 1 in ms-65 @ $10,000. suddenly, a hoard of 1000 of the same coin is found, & 99% of them look exactly like the ms-65 coin. the value in ms-65 drops to $300, ms-63 drops back to $100.
what has happened here? yes, the GRADES of the 2 original coins has changed!!! because the coin's values have changed. the old standard for "ms-65" needs to be revised so that such a disproporitonate number of the coins no longer grade ms-65, otherwise, the ms-63's would be far, far more rare than the ms-65's.
so the fundamental problem w/ any kind of precision of grading coins is two-fold:
(1) grading is an opinion, it is purely, 100% w/out question, no doubt about it, SUBJECTIVE
(2) grades are TIME-SENSITIVIE, what grades ms-65 may well grade different tomorrow.
<< <i>Yes, I know, it's preferable to inspect each coin in person before making your decision >>
the decision involves (or SHOULD involve) much more than that. not only must you inspect the coin in person, you need a body of past experience to know how the coin in question falls within the population of coins known to you!
<< <i>... and yes it's best to be able to grade coins yourself, and yes that's great if you have relationships with dealers you trust who know these things and do the work for you and don't charge you too much (in the form of markups) for the service. But is that realistic >>
YES, absolutely! that is why i am an eac member, because i can rely on certain friends' experience in deciding whether a certain coin is PQ (truly PQ, not the way "PQ" is abused by advertisers).
bottom line is, slabs are fine, great for "generic" grading, coins etc. the real key to numismatic success is viewing literally thousands upon thousands of coins, forming a mental picture of what is average for a series, & what is really, truly premium quality. you could have a hundred common-date seated quarters in XF, but there'll be that one XF coin that is just so mark-free, so evenly colored & so sharply struck that it just stands out, it's the right 1 to pick up, it's the 1 that's worth well over retail, because it is special. i contend that all it takes to be able to seek out such coins is patience.
<< <i>Wouldn't "half-grades" help with the constant crack-out/resubmission/second-guessing/complaining about not crossing/upgrading/getting the points that the submitters want? >>
absolutley not, it would worsen the problem considerabley. instead of having 10 unc grades to complain about, there woudl be 20.
here's the real bottom line: when you like a coin, really really like it, the price does not matter.. i've repeated this statement many times, & it never fails to hold for me. if you are true to yourself, honest & willing to have patience to view thousands of coins, & learn what you really, really like, the appreciation you will have for the really, really NICE coins (the ones you really really like!) will pay you dividends that far exceed the values in pricing structures, grey-sheets, blue-sheets, etc.
BUY THE COINS YOU REALLY LIKE, the grade is a very secondary issue.
K S
Think of it this way. If you measured some quantity (say, temperature) that is well known to be something you can't measure more accurately than to the nearest 5 degrees. What would be the point of using a scale that had a one-tenths of a decimal place? Calling the measurement 78.2 degrees is meaningless if you can't tell if the measurement is 80 degrees or 75 degrees. This is something I learned in chemistry and physics classes years ago. Accruacy and precision are NOT the same thing....
jom
with this I do happen to disagree, because the price is a factor in how much I really really like it!
<--------- this coin, I really, really like (even love!) at $5,000, think is pretty nice at $7,500, just ok at $10k, and a terrible coin at $20K, and I absolutely hate this coin at $30K, so much that I must sell it immediately if (when) offered that price!
thank you for your thoughtful comments, please understand that I am hoping for a more detailed breakdown from my third party grader, for my high end coins, as to what their expert opinion is to the coin's strike, luster, marks, state of surface preservation, and eye appeal, that's all. I would find that more useful for my grading fee than a simple holder and one whole number between 1 and 70.
I believe I'll get it someday, in the form of a higher level of service, and I will use that opinion as a tool (not the only one) for forming my own opinion and collecting choices. And when the time comes to sell, I hope that my best coins will be in these premium holders, and allow me to receive top dollar.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Rather, I'd like to see a slab that says, for example:
1893-S.................S$1
Net........MS-64.8
Strike MS 64
Luster MS 65
Marks MS 63
Wear MS 64
Toning MS 67
Eye Appeal MS 66
or
1793.........Chain.......1c.
Net...... VF-37
Wear/Details......VF30
Strike.....80% full
Marks ...consistent VF/EF
Surfaces: smooth brown
Originality: 95%
Eye appeal: EF
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
It's on the other end of the scale that we need an additional decimal place. I just got an 1806 quarter that's almost a Good. Can't quite call it G4, though, and plain ol' AG3 doesn't sound fair. "AG3 PQ" is a bit of an oxymoron. What do you do for a coin that's on the borderline between these two grades? What sounds better, "a strong AG", or "a weak Good"? Then there are coins on the border between Fair and AG... or Poor and Fair... but maybe nobody cares.
Anybody want an AG3.5 1806 quarter?
whenever there's a spread, and a coin falls in between, it's up to the seller to point it out!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>"when you like a coin, really really like it, the price does not matter" with this I do happen to disagree, because the price is a factor in how much I really really like it! this coin, I really, really like ... at $5,000 ... and I absolutely hate this coin at $30K >>
the key is, that you happen to like keeping your money MORE than you like the coin. that's the "be honest w/ yourself" part of the philosophy.
consider: when you think you'd really like to buy a certain widget, but decide the price is too "high" , are you now saying you don't like the widget? no, what you are saying is that, at that point in time, you like your money more.
i tell ya, the philosophy works for me, & it is only when i've tried to work around it, or in spite of it, that ive gotten hosed.
K S
WH
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
the decimal point is only needed when there is a HUGE spread between grades,
such as MS65-MS66 for $20 libs and rare date morgans, and high MS grades of early type.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Maybe if 65.5 was allowed, there'd be more consistency!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
If I am not mistaken this thread is older than I am on here and I have never seen it.... hmmmmmmm
Just goes to show how most of my ideas have been thought of already.... good and bad.....
It is better to dwell in the corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman and in a wide house. - Proverbs 25:24
But this is just a thought, and my personal opinion.
<< <i>The NGC star is for outstanding eye appeal, not to designate high end for the grade. There is a distinct difference between the two concepts. >>
Like I said in my original post, I don't collect NGC coins, and wasn't aware that their "star" system was just for coins with eye appeal.
I was just trying to think of a simple way to help the "new" collectors, (or those that are not very good at grading), and don't know a high end coin from one that just barely made the assigned grade, without trying to make it even more expensive to have a coin graded.
If you used the "10" people grading system that has been suggested here it would cost you 5-10x what it does now to submit a coin for grading, and you could forget about having some of the coins that have populations in th e "billions" of being graded at all. Someone, (PCGS/NGC), would have to pay those extra 6-7 graders a decent salary. That would raise the cost of submissions substantially. That is why I suggested something "similar" to the star system. But I wouldn't want the star system that I am suggesting to just use that system for grading on "eye appeal" alone. I would want it to take in all factors of grading a coin. But again this is just my humble opinion!
Exactly. Once again, it only makes sense to do it for very expensive high grade coins, where there are huge price differences for one whole point, not your run of the mill coins where grading to a whole point is just fine. And yes, the submission would be expensive, probably $250, so it would only make sense if the coin was valued at, say $2000 or more, or if the half point differential was more than the grading fee.
I was just trying to think of a simple way to help the "new" collectors, (or those that are not very good at grading), and don't know a high end coin from one that just barely made the assigned grade, without trying to make it even more expensive to have a coin graded.
And these are not the kind of coins newbies are buying (or should be buying) we are talking about very high end coins that would be a lot more liquid if they were accurately graded.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Anyway, isn't this just another way for people to try to add value to their coins so they can ask more for them like grade designations ?
Example; if a 65 barber half is worth $2500 and a 64 is worth $1000 a 64.6 should easily be worth $1600 if it says 64.6 on the slab ??? BLAH!!!
Les
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Les
But once you cherry pick your dealer, and buy, say, a PQ 65+ coin in a 65 slab, what good does that do you unless, when you go to sell it, you can convince the potential buyer that is is not a run-of-the-mill 65?
if you could submit the coin under this $250 tier, get that half point that's worth $600, why on earth would you not?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
As for the decimal system only PCGS is in a position to do anything now as NGC and ANACS still miss grades by leaps and bounds. Giving the lesser services an option to use decimals between say a 64 and a 65 is irrelevant, as they would still call it a 66! LOL
Tyler
<< <i>If you used the "10" people grading system that has been suggested here it would cost you 5-10x what it does now to submit a coin for grading, and you could forget about having some of the coins that have populations in th e "billions" of being graded at all. Someone, (PCGS/NGC), would have to pay those extra 6-7 graders a decent salary. That would raise the cost of submissions substantially
Exactly. Once again, it only makes sense to do it for very expensive high grade coins, where there are huge price differences for one whole point, not your run of the mill coins where grading to a whole point is just fine. And yes, the submission would be expensive, probably $250, so it would only make sense if the coin was valued at, say $2000 or more, or if the half point differential was more than the grading fee.
I was just trying to think of a simple way to help the "new" collectors, (or those that are not very good at grading), and don't know a high end coin from one that just barely made the assigned grade, without trying to make it even more expensive to have a coin graded.
And these are not the kind of coins newbies are buying (or should be buying) we are talking about very high end coins that would be a lot more liquid if they were accurately graded. >>
That makes since if your just talking about coins like this one.