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What can WE do about coin doctors?
gsaguy
Posts: 2,425 ✭
Tonight's thread about aswimmer is a perfect example. Here's a guy who's selling coins that are obviously artificially toned. Whether he's doing them himself or a buddy is doing them for him, he still knows he's fleecing unsuspecting collectors. How about all that BS about "grandpa's" collection? Give me a break.
With all the recent talk about coin doctors and how much they harm the hobby, what can we do? I'm certainly open to suggestions.
I find it very frustrating to see this kind of BS going on, especially knowing that he's profiting at the expense of unsuspecting collectors with every sale he makes.
GSAGUY
With all the recent talk about coin doctors and how much they harm the hobby, what can we do? I'm certainly open to suggestions.
I find it very frustrating to see this kind of BS going on, especially knowing that he's profiting at the expense of unsuspecting collectors with every sale he makes.
GSAGUY
0
Comments
Frank
I've been told on several occasions that the best way to stop the evildoers is by filing a ton of small claims court actions against the perpertrators. This involves finding one coin doctor at a time, each coin collector or coin buyer filing an action, possibly into the thousands, against the coin doctor for false representation. The action must be against one dealer at a time, possibly the most aggressive coin doctor. This procedure may actually bankrupt the coin doctor. Once the main doctor is out of commision, the focus shifts to the next. After a few of these course of events, many coin doctors will seek alternative employment. Just an idea, but worth a shot.
TRUTH
In this most recent case, no where in his auction does he state that the colors are artifically applied. Quite the contrary, he would have you believe that grandpa was a toning fan and put together the collection as he 'criss-crossed the country as a jewelry dealer'. Right.
I think we all need to be more pro-active....I just don't know how.....not yet anyway.
GSAGUY
I love toned coins. I enjoy buying and selling them. I enjoy the collectors I meet and the friendships I develop. But sleezeball coin doctors like this one give legitimate coin dealers a bad name.
GSAGUY
Legal liability concerns? Slander? Perhaps, but bring 'em on! These cooked coins cannot be defended in front of anyone who is a knowedgeble numismatist.
Do any of you really believe that these "doctors" are serious collectors? NOT!! They are scum and when I see them trying to sell their crud, I will flame and flame and flame. We who are serious and dedicated collectors can fight this junk and win!!
Please see my thread entitled "Declaring war..."
Edited to add the last line.
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
I think it is up to us to boycott those dealers who know of these coin doctors, and knowingly sell their wares,
until they reveal what they know and join/lead the fight.
C'mon magnanimous dealers. Who, among you, are really the "good guys"?
I imagine we could harass the seller to the point that still remains legal, and irritates him enough to stop his actions. I'm not sure it that would work though. Tough call.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
Knowledge seems to be the key to our hobby. Sharing that knowledge is the real tool/weapon/solution.
So how do we share the knowledge with other unsuspecting buyers on Ebay? Not really sure. But legally, before you can say that someone is a coin doctor and selling AT coins, you better have proof, not just a "feeling." I know, we can all see that his coins are AT, but a opinion from atleast one of the major grading companies would be important.
If someone, or a group of people were to band together and purchase 1/2/3 of these coins from different suspected doctors, and sent them off to PCGS for grading and they got BBed, you'd be in a much stronger position to assert the truth, as you know it. Perhaps a list can be sold on Ebay in each auction repeatedily exposing these coin doctors. The list could have a BIN of $1.00 and be mailed or emailed to the winners with the info on each doctor.
You can use an attention grabbing headline like "AT COINs - Coin Doctors on Ebay List" and then you can use the description area to lay out some facts but keep the real info as to who is doctoring in the report itself. I'm sure once a couple of people buy the list, it will also find it's way around the community for free.
Of course, this may result in some legal action against the group. But I doubt a small Ebayer seller will have the funds to litigate this issue. Average retainer for an attorney would be $5000 - $10000 for this type of work. And, if you did it right it would be hard to have a jury find slander/libel and award relief to the coin doctor.
If you go around and email his bidders and they cancel their bids, that might be a nice lawsuit for the seller -- Tortious Interference With Business Relations, and the whole AT thing is out the door. So I wouldn't recommend that.
If you wanted to be even safer, just put pics of the AT coins and sell the list as a informational tool, showing what to look for and leave out any references to who you bought the coin from.
Lastly, don't use other people's pics, they are also copyrighted along with their descriptions.
How that helps
Michael
But it was grandpa! Here's the proof straight from the doctor's, uh, I mean seller's, keyboard:
<< <i>Reply-To: "Alan Swimmer" <aswimmer@speakeasy.net>
From: "Alan Swimmer" <aswimmer@speakeasy.net>
To: "Russ" <russ@compucheap.com>
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #3007972243
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:17:02 -0800
Organization: Alan Swimmer Technolgy
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200
What do you mean create, these coins come from my late grandfather's
collection of colored coins he picked up over 20+ years as a traveling
jewelry salesman in the 50 and 60s. It was one of these that got me started
collecting in 1968. We do not know how much toning continued after he
procurred them, we think quite a but because coins stored in like fashion
toned similarly. He was not big on storing them properly, he was not a
collector as we know it but more for their beauty. Now if he was an artist
I have no knowledge of that but nobody in the family remembers him doing
anything to them to make them "artificial". He died in 1974 and he was a
great man. The perfect grandfather.
Regards,
Alan
======================
email: aswimmer@speakeasy.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Russ" <russ@compucheap.com>
To: "Alan Swimmer" <aswimmer@speakeasy.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #3007972243
> Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. Not what you use to take the pictures (which
> are great, BTW), but what do you use to create the artificial toning?
>
> Russ
>
> At 06:01 PM 2/13/03 -0800, you wrote:
> >I use a Fuji Finepix 4900, its has great settings for the type of
lighting
> >and whether its being monitored based on an average, the center or a area
of
> >your choosing. It really makes the color pop on these coins.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Alan
> >======================
> >email: aswimmer@speakeasy.net
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <sales@compucheap.com>
> >To: <aswimmer@speakeasy.net>
> >Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 5:58 PM
> >Subject: Question for seller -- Item #3007972243
> >
> >
> >> What do you use to tone these Morgans? They're very pretty...Russ
> >> --------------------
> >>
> >>
> >> Question from: compucheap
> >> Title of item: 1902-o BU MONSTER TONED MORGAN IS OUTSTANDING
> >> Seller: aswimmer
> >> Starts: Feb-13-03 11:00:27 PST
> >> Ends: Feb-16-03 11:00:27 PST
> >> Price: Currently $19.77
> >> To view the item, go to:
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3007972243
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Visit eBay, The World's Online Marketplace TM at http://www.ebay.com >>
You know, if I wasn't already so jaded and cynical, I might be hurt that he would lie to me.
Russ, NCNE
I would like to see eBay do something about picture doctors.. We have all seen them and they are very mis leading as to what the buyer will truely get.
I have talked to my rep at eBay regarding this, and so far they do not know how to handle this. They act like it is the buyer's who will handle it with negative feedback's. Offcourse this will be after the fact that the buyers has been misled, and in some case's ripped off..
As private Pile would say SHAME SHAME SHAME!
Gary
fairtraderz eBay auction's
The sharing and exchanging of informations is by far the best deterrant to coin doctors. When the market dissappears for their blantant cooking, so will the doctors.
I bought three AT coins last year, believing they were real...until I saw them with my own eyes and had doubts. I contacted a toning expert who informed me that he was 100% sure that they were AT. I joined this board some weeks later and the ability to detect AT coins shot up exponentially. I sold those three coins for triple what I paid, even telling the sellers in BOLD that I believed the coins were AT.
Buyers want rainbow toned coins. If they don't want to learn the basics about coins, the grading services, talk to experienced collectors etc, etc...then they will get burned. I hate to see coins ruined, but have little sympathy for those so fleeced. Coins delve into the realm of art a bit, and are not fixed assets that one has a right to buy or sell at a pre-determined price. If one doesn't learn the rules and understand the market, then that is just too bad.
Tyler
How about this one?
I know that ebay frowns on 'interference' with an auction...and they should. To write the bidders and tell them directly that the seller is selling AT'd crap and to beware, could get you in some trouble. But what about writing those that are bidding and just providing them with a link to threads like the one on aswimmer?
By doing that, you've not said anything negative about the seller, you've only pointed the bidders in a direction where they may learn something. And, who knows, we'd almost certainly pick up a few new members who could contribute to the forum.
What do you think?
GSAGUY
Gary
fairtraderz eBay auctions
The buyers who rely on doctored pictures will eventually learn to buy from a reputable seller offering a meaningfull guarantee, or will continue to throw their money down the toilet. I seem to recall something about a fool and his money....
Fairtraderz eBay auction's
<< <i>Well this A$$wimmer gent takes PeePal and credit cards so the obvious approach is for several members to buy his stuff and pay using one of those venues. After you get the coin start requesting chargebacks thru the payment services and tie up or screw up his account. If its anything like the thread about PeePal that was on here a few weeks ago he should have an industrial strength headache. >>
So, it was Bajjerfan that made the suggestion to buy coins, pay for them with Paypal, take possession of the coins and then request a chargeback through Paypal. How ethical.
<< <i>With all the recent talk about coin doctors and how much they harm the hobby, what can we do? I'm certainly open to suggestions. >>
Get a rope....
I agree with this. One of the best sources of information such as this is attending the summer ANA seminars in Colorado Springs where can you can get hands on experience with knowledgable numismatists. You are allowed to bring any coins you may have a question on and get a straight foward answer from the instructors in the grading courses.
Also, why not pressure the ANA to offer a course on "Coin Doctoring". They are suppose to be there to help collectors. If 1000 collectors start writing and calling the ANA for this course, they will likely offer it. A special fund could be created at the ANA for this educational course.
Former ANA President Bob Campbell frequently speaks out about artificial toning. You can reach him at All About Coins in Salt Lake City to find out when he will be giving his toning seminar at a coin show in the near future.
Frattlaw also makes some important legal points regarding this matter.
A very interesting thread is developing here that seems to be quite constructive.
Keep it up.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories
There are many good points being made on this thread.
I can only conclude that no one really wants the coin doctoring to go away based on the lack of interest in this thread.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories
Thanks for the bumps on this thread. Obviously it's a topic that I believe is important and I know that many forum members do as well.
However, it appears that the options are somewhat limited on just what can be done by an individual to help put a stop to the coin doctors. To me, education is the key. That's why I wondered out loud if sending a pleasant e-mail those who are bidding on a coin doctor's material with a link to a discussion of his work wasn't an option. If a bidder wants to own artificially toned coins, that's his right. But if he doesn't know that they're artificially toned, he might really appreciate knowing the views of others (both pro and con on a particular seller's material) who have more experience in that area.
Does that action fall into the category of auction interference? I don't know. But I do know that auction interference is wrong and no one should engage in it under any circumstances.
Unfortunately, there are those on the forum who scream bloody murder anytime anyone suggests that a seller is up to no good. Just because there's overwhelming evidence that the guy is intentionally deceiving buyers on ebay, he can't be judged in the court of public opinion. I think that's BS, pure and simple.
In just the last couple of weeks, I've seen one ebay seller STOP SELLING AT'd coins and another start posting that the coins he's selling MAY be artificially toned. That sure looks like progress to me.
Most people want to avoid controversy and would rather not be labeled as a vigilante, or nazis, or coin police just because they wish to inform a newbie collector that he may be stepping into a huge trap. I can't blame them. I don't like to be embroiled in controversy either.
But if I've got to choose between a seller intentionally deceiving buyers with artifically toned junk or a 'nazis' that wishes to point out his misdeeds, I'll side with the latter every time.
GSAGUY
most people who get heavily involved in coins learns the lessons either the easy way "a good mentor" or the "hard way" meaning they get burned a few times and then start buying smarter.
unfortunately, the catch-22 with trying to educate the newbies is that it's hard to put out any book or course on 'HOW TO DETECT COIN DOCTORING"
without some unscrupulous people using it as a book or course on "HOW TO DOCTOR COINS, AND THE BEST WAYS TO AVOID DETECTION" and then going after the annual flock of new collectors.
Like we used to say in grad school, "lets find some freshmen coeds and buy em beer!" just kidding.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
As far as the doctors, I don't know of any definitive group or measure that can be used to counter them. Word of mouth is one way, but without knowing who these guys and gals are its tough for a collector to get involved. I hope the new group that is forming as we speak is able to send out a loud and clear message that falls on ears of people willing to listen. But once again there is the group out there and in here that is ready, willing to take shots at this rather than become part of the solution. To me its amazing that people who love the hobby as much as these people obviousl do take this kind of shots from supposed collectors.
Where are the people who want to protect this hobby fixing this problem? Have any of these protectors called up CW and said, "I'm not going to advertise in your mag any more because of this."?
The big dealers want to protect us, then do this. The coin grading services want to protect us, then do this. The collectors here want to protect us, then write the editor a letter and tell him you are canceling your subscription until they make a step toward helping the collectors.
We need to educate the collectors. We need to pressure the "news outlets" to talk about the dangers of this hobby. We also need these outlets to stop promoting the scumbags that sell this crap.
I've dealt with "The Good Ole Boys" network in everything from speeding tickets in southern kangeroo courts to permits to build a doghouse & rezoning properties from swampland to commercial to build $20 million condos. Old money talks and BS walks so I'm leery of any group that secretly polices it's own. I can see the dealers at a anti doctor meeting amongst a lot of handshaking, back slapping & winking at each other as they say "Billy Rob the Revlon flaked of your last Bust Half and it cost me a lot of $$ because I had to buy it back-remember to put some biege base on the next ones."
Yeah it's easy to sit here and be sarcastic from my keyboard but you get the idea of what I'm saying right?
So what's my answer?
#1 More education in detecting doctored coins. Other than 1 example that Legend posted here and a few pictures in books that I can't even remember the names of I'm clueless as the next guy as what to look for and how to do it. Let's make examples & diagnostics as easy to find as if we were looking for the diagnostics of an authentic 3 legged Buffalo.
#2 Let's convince everybody that the raw toned or MS66 DMPL Morgans on eBay are not good deals even at $20 per coin nor are the chances great for a true cherrypick. We're worried about bad coins in slabs but the market is big for raw material too.
What about the raw doctored junk?
Actually if I were a doctor I would not sell a raw coin because unprotected by the slab the "improvements" will quickly go bad plus the buyers have the added bonus of being able to smell it, feel it, dip it in acetone, look at the rims, get a up close look at it, etc.
While I know it's not feasable to create a fund to buy up all the problem coins and destroy them I do know if nobody buys them then they sit in dealer's cases unsold-so if the dealers can't sell this junk then they don't buy it in the first place.
However, if you linked someone to a thread that discussed AT vs. natural toning without mentioning the coin he/she was bidding on, you might be okay. Then your intent is educational and you allow the prospective buyer to decide for himself whether to cancel his bid or not. Again, that would be tricky since you don't have control over what is posted. If someone else posted to the thread an answer that said "hey look @ coin dr. X's coin, that's without question AT and that happened to be the coin the prospective buyer was bidding on, you again, might have problems.
Again, I pose my idea about an educational website that a password can be sold on Ebay for $1. It's static, nothing can change and it's educational. People buy it of their own accord, so you have done nothing to interfere with a sale directly. But alas, it didn't seem like it was very popular when I posted it and I was actually condemned by "a big player" for having such a "crazy" idea.
Michael
plain as the nose on your face, ignore the coins and the sellers. why get your boxers in a bunch about the topic of AT coins and the makers/sellers of same??? unless you like to vent and discuss which is a somewhat fruitless endeavor.
if you see something you feel confident is AT, don't bid on it and bookmark the seller for future reference, avoiding them in any manner. likewise at a show, if you see a dealer selling questionable coins, avoid them in the future, no matter what they may have.
the difficult part of this whole AT bull equation is in the following through of convictions with action and not just talk.
and while were on the topic, why can't someone PLEASEEEEEEE start some type of a unified AT thread that can be used for posting related topics/auctions/sellers??? that way we could free up first page thread space for something other than this seemingly endless ongoing preoccupation with real/AT colored coins.
in the interim, why not let the wheels turn with regards to the Legend post of a conglommeration of professionals who are attacking this problem?? they seem better equipped in terms of knowledge and financial wherewithall to deal with it.
al h.