cleaned---conserved----but still original?

CLASSICS · February 22, 2003 5:09AM

original....in its original state as made, if at anytime the surface of a coin has been cleaned, wiped, dipped, lightly cleaned, call it what you want....the surface has been altered from its original state as made......the surface is no longer original...... it has been changed.......would like to here what some of the other forum members think.....

dwood · February 22, 2003 5:11AM

Couldn't agree more!

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 5:14AM

If any of that stuff had been done to it then it's no longer original. Plain & simple.

ksteelheader · February 22, 2003 5:30AM

ksteelheader · February 22, 2003 5:34AM

I agree with all you have said. HOWEVER, let me ask you a question. A coin is in its original state the instant it comes off of the coin press. I do not recall a coin coming off of the presses with a piece of plastic surrounding the coin with the letters PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ACG, etc. Does this then make the coin NOT ORIGINAL?

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 5:35AM

The coin's surfaces have not been altered by the slab so yes, it's still original even though it's holdered.

DHeath · February 22, 2003 5:38AM

Ron, I agree that it would not be original. I also think it is only possible to say with certainty that a coin is original if it has been in your posession since issue. In other words, with a 100 year old coin, it is only possible to know with certainty that a coin is not original. It is not possible to know with certainty that it is original.

Cam40 · February 22, 2003 6:10AM

So if a Jeff tones blue in a mint set it not in original condition?The surfaces have been altered though.
What does original mean really.
Remember the Millenium Sacies that were burnished? Remember the disgust of hobbyists to find they may have been burnished POST-STRIKE.Wow Thats a cardinal sin to a collector of MS coins.We cant have no post-strike alterations on own coins ,no way,no how.

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 6:20AM

Burnished Sacs are original because that's the way the Mint manufactured them. It was part of the minting process so it cannot be considered a post mint alteration.

Zerbe · February 22, 2003 6:25AM

Should'nt we make the remaining 'original' coins a 'protected species', as they seem to be nearing extinction. I wish the services could spend an extra minute when they grade a coin they think is original and put the letter 'O' on the slab. I think the "O" coins would command a premium. Just a thought.

dwood · February 22, 2003 6:40AM

Good suggestion Zerbe. That would sort of make it a win/win while still leaving a viable market for the "non-O" stuff.

ClausUrch · February 22, 2003 6:43AM

So when coins tone they are no longer original.....outside elements have reacted with the metal to oxidize a layer, thus spoiling the original surfaces????

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 6:52AM

If they tone in their original Mint issued holders, ie, Morgans in mint sacks, or other series in their Proof or Mint Set packaging that's makes it original to ME.
American Historical Society velvet lined cases, Dansco & Whitman albums, Wyatt Raymond holders, paper coin envelopes and other after market holders do not make original toning to ME.

CLASSICS · February 22, 2003 8:13AM

<< So when coins tone they are no longer original.....outside elements have reacted with the metal to oxidize a layer, thus spoiling the original surfaces???? >>

...............if the tone was natural, like from being in a mint set, yes that coin i beleive to still be original, however, iam taliking about coins that have been dipped, cleaned.

coinkat · February 22, 2003 10:19AM

Zerbe:

Not too long ago on this very forum, I made a very compelling case for the grading services to adopt a designation for original surfaces "o/s" on coins that graders could use to separate original coins from the others. Unfortunately, this concept was met with resistance which to this date is still alittle tough for me to understand.

The grading and preservation of coins is still somewhat of an evolutionary process... 30 years ago, who would have thought that slabs would have developed to the point that the grading services combined have probably graded in excess of 15 million coins. We know that original uncleaned, undipped type coins, including gold, are highly sought after but the enhancing and other nonsense continues because there is a well founded perception that the enhanced coin will get a higher grade and sell for more $$$. As I have said in the past and will say again, it is time for the grading services to take a stand and do something extra to not just protect original coins, but help those collectors that want original coins instead of the typical dipped garbage that has been scrubbed and stripped of any originality or natural look. Again, I will use the 1892-s Morgan as an example...how many truly original coins exist that have been slabbed that grade AU50 or higher? Not too many and I'll leave it at that. Further, I will not even mention all the other examples that would be appropriate to mention

I had expectations for this forum. It was not just to exchange knowledge with respect to coins, but to make this a better hobby for everyone, including future generations. It is unfortunate that issues such as this(i.e. a designation used by the grading services for original coins) will be ignored again, and again, and again... If you doubt the manner in which I have raised this issue, please refer to previous posts on this issue. Frankly, talk is cheap and the time for action is long overdue.

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 10:34AM

coinkat-
The services can't even decide what's AT, doctored, DMPL or even a numerical grade consistantly so they can't identify an original coin either. That would be just another worm in the can.

stman · February 22, 2003 10:45AM

To make my reply short, Coinkat I agree with your thoughts, and agree with Dog97's reply to them.

coinkat · February 22, 2003 11:44AM

There are numerous issues associated with grading that is a challenge for the services as well as the collector. Most of these issues, AT, whether a coin is a DMPL, and lets not forget the appropriate numerical grade are going to continue to exist. However, the services have standards to determine whether a coin is a DMPL, full head, steps, bands, bell lines etc.. Even with these standards, there is a subjective component to grading that impacts the final determination. That is not going to change. Because that is not going to change, do we get rid of the grading services? Not likely... The real solution is for collectors tell the services what service is needed and why.

The whole purpose behind the creation of an original surfaces "o/s" designation is to provide a service to those collectors that want original coins. I have seen too many coins that I would never even consider buying because they have been stripped of their original appearance to the point that it is disgraceful. There are many series ranging from Seated Dollars to no motto $10 Libs where original ef45 to au58 coins are almost extinct. I have been told that the coin should speak for itself and while I generally agree with this, I can not help but believe that if professional graders are able to determine if the coin is ef45 or au58, they should be able to determine whether the coin is deserving of an o/s designation as part of their opinion. Further, considering the volume of coins traded on the sight unseen market as well as on the net, this designation is long overdue.

How would this work? A coin that is clearly original would get the o/s designation. If there is a doubt, the coin would not be assigned an o/s designation, but would still qualify for slabbing at the appropriate grade. The need for this designation is primarily for circulated type coins, including gold, Seated Dollars, etc. I still don't see much use for this with most modern coins. Will it work 100% of the time? No, again grading is subjective and opinions may vary. But as it stands now, are the services always right? Not if you read about 35-50% of the threads on this forum. Someone always always finds something to complain about... I am ready to hear less complaining and collectors taking a more pro-active voice in terms of the future of this hobby, including what the grading services do and currently don't do.

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 12:05PM

It's a good idea coinkat, but with all the subjective components of what makes an original surface I don't think the grading companies could properly attribute an original surface.
We would pay a prem for a holder with a big O on it and later find out it really wasn't original after but rather "Market Acceptable Original" which like toned coins in holders may in fact not be original but "Market Acceptable."
I though NGC was on to something with their star designation because a really pq surface would be as near as original as you could get, but after seeing the AT Peace dollar stman had that was in a star holder my confidence is gone.
I'll settle for my own judgement in the matter and determine if it's original myself.
Mind you I'm not saying you're wrong with your idea, I'm just saying the services couldn't do it.

stujoe · February 22, 2003 12:12PM

I can't see PCGS doing it. I think having an o/s designation would go against what PCGS does...namely distill an entire coin down into a single number that is accepted in the marketplace. I don't think a grade and other designations qualifying or adding to the grade is what they are all about. They won't even holder a problem coin as such with a designation of the problem. Of course, I could be wrong.

coinkat · February 22, 2003 12:40PM

Dog97:

I respect your opinion and I am pleased that you are a collector who obviously is capable of making decisions based on your own knowledge and experience. I have been at this for 30 years and have also learned afew things along the way, including mistakes that were not too terribly costly. My concern is too many original coins are being enhanced and something should be done to discourage or even prevent it before its too late. Further, the way in which coins are now bought and sold requires further clerification as to the quality (originality) of the coin when possible, other than just a numerical grade, and that clerification can and should be done by the grading services.

Our generation of collectors will be judged by furture generations. While it can be said that significant efforts were made by our generation to develop better and uniform grading standards as well as third party grading, but what was the price paid by the hobby in the process? Those that enhance original coins chasing after the top possible grade to get that extra buck... without much thought as to the originality. Thats where I have trouble and I suspect so will future collectors.

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 12:50PM

Haha, another grumpy old time collector!

Very few of us are actually hardcore collectors, most are investors or simply coin buyers or worse yet plastic buyers. Few actually care what the heck an original coin is. Most think it means simply nice & shiny.
I agree coinkat. I mainly do Morgans and I own very few that I can say with a great certianly are original.

pmh1nic · February 22, 2003 1:00PM

I would take exception to the definition of original at the start of this thread, the part about "its original state as made." It would be a very, very, very rare situation that a 200 year old coin would be in "its original state as made" since the chances that some degree of toning would have occurred during a period of history that did not have the type of climate control technology that exist today. I consider a Mint State coin that has naturally toned as being original in fact the toning is in some sense a signature of its originality.

coinkat · February 22, 2003 1:08PM

Dog97:

I also enjoy Morgans and I have some that I feel are original and unfortunately others that are not. Some of the VAMs are fun.

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 1:13PM

Ahhh, pmh1nic, another grumpy old time collector that likes a good originality discussion. pmh1nic wouldn't you just like to get your hands on that handful of 1790 something Large Cents that grade 67-69 just to see how original they are? True they're brown but I wonder how much stuff has been wiped & cleaned off them to maintain that high grade.

coinkat · February 22, 2003 1:17PM

Copper is tough... I will leave that one to the real copper experts.

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 1:38PM

I'd still like to see one because that old in that grade & metal just amazes me. Try to get a penny 5 years old to grade higher than 66.

Baley · February 22, 2003 2:14PM

yes, when the coin pops out of the dies it is original. then, what ever happens to it after that changes it, makes it less original. the more that happens to it, the less original it gets. if a coin popped out of the dies, and into a gloved hand, and into a plastic holder, and has been there its whole "life", well, then it's pretty safe from handling. pretty original. think of a new proof coin. the more its handled, the lower the grade goes.

OK, business strikes: different story

if it goes into the channels of commerse, and starts getting spent, if it gets normal wear, it just goes down the range of circulated coins. some wear almost smooth, some get scratched, holed, cut, engraved, whatever, they get ruined, ok

but for high grade coins, the older it is, the more time and chance it had for something to happen to it. so if it "got kinda dirty" and then was "cleaned up some" sure, it's less original. depending on how bad it was, maybe its a LOT less original.

depends on the coin, depends on what all "happened" to it, depends on how it looks now.

Baley · February 22, 2003 2:23PM

oh, wouldn't you love to go back in time to the late 1790's, early 1800's, go to the mint, put on yer white gloves, take a couple freshies right from the dies, drop em in a flip, bring em back to the present, wrap em up and send em in to PCGS!

or if you couldn't bring em back, but could only send a message back in time to an ancestor, tell them to go the the mint, get the coins, stack em, wrap them up in rolls and put the rolls in a glass jar, and bury the jar on the land that ends up being your backyard today.

now that would be original.

ok, so we don't have time travel.

the best we got is some very very few coins that were handled minimally.

and that's what it comes down to... if it looks like it was treated gently or harshly, that's how you value it on the scale from perfection down to the most foul worn out slug.

at the top it's very rarefied, and thats truer the farther you go back. recent coins are easy to find in perfect condition.

so in my opinion, the question is not original or not, but to what degree.

OneYearTypes · February 22, 2003 4:03PM

Baley...
I dream about doing just that, nearly ever night

oh what i would give to be able to move in time.

stman · February 22, 2003 4:27PM

<< though NGC was on to something with their star designation because a really pq surface would be as near as original as you could get, but after seeing the AT Peace dollar stman had that was in a star holder my confidence is gone. >>

The star designation by NGC is for eye appeal that sets itself apart from others. That coin sure did that. Hey did you know that besides the Binion Hoard ( which they were very lenient with, wonder why? ) that Peace$ was a pop1 for that date, and grade with a star? But remember Dog, think positive thoughts and everything will be fine.

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 4:54PM

Think positive huh? Yeah, that's what the ex-PCGS grader posted the other night. He said look for the good in a coin. The dealers already do that to make us buy their coins. If I do that then we might all get that warm fuzzy feeling and start looking at our coins through rose colored glasses. I prefer to look at the negative; the defects; the ticks, dings, hits; the brown dip retone, the fingerprints. Call a problem a problem. Call junk junk. If collectors will open their eyes & see these things then they will be better collectors for it. As sincerly micheal says, they will be "astute."

stman · February 22, 2003 5:07PM

I knew the look positive would get you going Dog. I think I'm gonna get grumpier myself if that can be done.

From now on I'm with you, if a Morgan isn't bag toned from the canvas bags, and if the classic proofs are not toned from the tissue paper from the mint, and if other coins aren't toned from their original holders.................. THEY ARE NOT ORIGINAL!!!!!

Even the Binion Hoard I'm not so sure about, they might have been in bags, but I'm not so sure about canvas bags from the mint. Maybe some kind of cloth or something. Some of them look odd. Oh yea, for a while I was starting to go along some with current grading standards, but I'm sticking with the way I learned and be tough and grumpy. You can't go wrong that way. We can't give in and wimp out can we? Are you with me Dog?

JohnButlerfromLV · February 22, 2003 5:11PM

<< original....in its original state as made, if at anytime the surface of a coin has been cleaned, wiped, dipped, lightly cleaned, call it what you want....the surface has been altered from its original state as made......the surface is no longer original...... it has been changed.......would like to here what some of the other forum members think.....

>>

The coin starts changing from its original state a micro second after it is struck. Once it is exposed to molecules in the air the surfaces are being assaulted by the environment.
Again, like Andy Lustig, Eureka Trading Andy, told me 19+ years ago. Look for the good in every coin. The downside on U.S. coins and currency is that they can always be spent whether they are original, toned, cleaned, tooled, etc.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories

JohnButlerfromLV · February 22, 2003 5:15PM

Sorry, there are no original coins left in this world.
Now can we all play coins nicely?
At least all U.S. Coins & Currency have a value.
Anyone who does not want their "doctored", "dipped", or otherwise destroyed coin is welcome to ship them to me for a fair offer.
I could always use them in my widget factory.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories

JohnButlerfromLV · February 22, 2003 5:21PM

<< Think positive huh? Yeah, that's what the ex-PCGS grader posted the other night. He said look for the good in a coin. The dealers already do that to make us buy their coins. If I do that then we might all get that warm fuzzy feeling and start looking at our coins through rose colored glasses. I prefer to look at the negative; the defects; the ticks, dings, hits; the brown dip retone, the fingerprints. Call a problem a problem. Call junk junk. If collectors will open their eyes & see these things then they will be better collectors for it. As sincerly micheal says, they will be "astute." >>

Hey Dog97, Please send me your junk.
I'm the ex-PCGS grader that said that the other night. I'm happy you quoted me. I did not think anyone cared for coins anymore.
Thanks,
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories

stman · February 22, 2003 5:25PM

<< At least all U.S. Coins & Currency have a value >>

Yeah, you are right. I feel it's no big deal either to pay some big money for a AT coin or doctored coin. Because after all they still might bring a dollar or something. Is that what you would pay?

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 5:26PM

The Binion coins do have a color that you don't see in the GSA or other bag coins. I assume they were stored in the same vault in Washington DC as the GSAs were till Binion bought them for his casino? Maybe they were stored locally in Nevada banks from the time they were minted? Nah, if that were the case the Binion coins would have been CC mints.

stman · February 22, 2003 5:29PM

Actually I think the Binion coins got some of their odd colors from being stored underground in the hot Nevada climate.

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 5:39PM

And the GSA coins got their color from the alternating hot & cold of the damp salty DC ocean climate.

stman · February 22, 2003 5:45PM

Shoot I don't know, but like John says (I hope he don't mind me calling him John) if anything they are still worth a Dollar.

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 5:51PM

And why do you not see any Monster toned Redfield coins? They were stored in the desert in Nevada. Out of ½ million coins you would think at least a couple would be monsters.

JohnButlerfromLV · February 22, 2003 5:57PM

<< 

<< At least all U.S. Coins & Currency have a value >>

Yeah, you are right. I feel it's no big deal either to pay some big money for a AT coin or doctored coin. Because after all they still might bring a dollar or something. Is that what you would pay?

>>

In the past, I have paid many thousands for doctored/AT coins, even 5 figures+. Heck, most people cannot tell the difference. Not dealers, graders, Collectors, lawyers, PCGS Forum members or myself could figure out every coin.
All you have to do is start attending 30+ major auctions per year and go to a coin show virtually every weekend. Anyone could eventually figure out what is "Original", not that any coin once its minted is still in its orignal form. After 30+ years of looking at millions of coins I am still learning.
You can send me your doctored/AT coins, I am not a scared buyer. I would happily pay more than face for rare coins no matter what their condition is. They all have a value.

stman · February 22, 2003 5:58PM

So what's your point, if it's the Nevada climate has nothing to do with it you might be right. I was just meaning them being underground might make a difference. I would like to find out what kind of bags the Binion coins were stored in.

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 6:05PM

Think man! Think! Vault, root celler, what's the difference? None
Why do the Redfield coins have no sign of bag tone but plenty have the dark brown periph tone?

stman · February 22, 2003 6:09PM

John, you seem like a nice guy so I really don't want to get into it with you. Having said that.... I hope you are not another one of those dealers that feels that just because a collector might not walk the boarse at all the major shows, or attend all the major auctions that they know nothing. Yes it's good experience but it doesn't always take that to judge a coin. I'm glad you would pay more than face for a doctored or AT coin.

What bothers me is some of your first comments on the board were like saying AT coins are OK, and they always have a value. And you stating you are an ex pcgs grader, that even bothers me more.

To me a dealer should have better ethics than to not care about buying and selling doctored or AT coins. Yes I know if there is a market for it than why not. Actually I think I have been in your shop before.

Anyway, these are just my opinions and welcome to the board.

JohnButlerfromLV · February 22, 2003 7:15PM

I don't have a problem with AT coins because they do have a value. I am in business to buy and sell rare coins. There are many people who have bought material via mail order who bring their coins into our shop to sell. It would be foolish of me to turn away their coins because of cleaning or AT. I do not discriminate because what others may have done to the coins prior to a customer having brought them into the shop.

That being said, all of my problem coins, cleaned or basically unattractive coins get wholesaled out to other dealers. I have built up a tremendous following amongst dealers throughout the country because I cast off many coins that the get sold as the "real deal" in the Ebay, Coin Show and Mail order markets. If you ever take the time to visit our store here in Las Vegas you will see that 98%+ of our inventory in our display cases are nice attractive "original" coins. I say 98% because I do make an occasional mistake or there are some coins still lurking from the person who I replaced. That person had very little numismatic experience. He certainly had very poor eyesight.
I personally do not sell coins to collectors that I do not want to buy back. You can ask Mark Scott the owner about that. Believe me, I have come close to being fired because of the positions I take on coins. If I do not like the coin, I will not hesitate to tell a customer. I have killed many sales of coins in my store because of my mouth. One of my best is regarding a CC morgan in a PCGS MS61 holder. A ebay customer called to get a better description. My comment was "The coin is white, but the face was hit by a train". Needless to say, the customer did not want the coin. If you want description like that than I would be someone you would want to deal with. If you want salesmanship. Forget about calling me. Just last week Mark called me "the worst f***ing salesman in the world" as he angrily left my office. I am no doubt right up there amongst the worst.

I also do not want to have to make an excuse about buying a coin back cheaply in the future because I sold a problem coin. That truly is the worst feeling in the world when buying coins from the public or collectors.

In addition to be a bad salesman, I am one of the world's worst negotiators. The collectors that walk in with their grey sheets or blue sheets will have very little luck at our place. To me they are making the statement that they do not value my time or expertise. I've spent 30 years learning numismatics. I have no problem with that as long as they go buy the material at coin shows, auctions or ebay. I do, in fact, place a value on that experience. I price my material fairly based on what I feel my replacement cost will be on each coin if I have to go out into the market to buy the coin. I know that's bad business but I feel I will survive besides my many limitations. I do have many happy customers who do place a value on my experience. One of those customers bought an incredible NGC MS68* Washington Quarter earlier this year before the run up in their prices. The quarter is one of the five nicest Washington Quarters I have ever seen. Believe me, he paid a strong price when he bought the coin. Needless to say, he is quite happy he did follow our advice on that coin.
By the way, I follow the same principles in my vintage postcard business. I am without a doubt one of the priciest sellers of vintage postcards in the world, but I do have good stuff.

Thanks,
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories

dorkkarl · February 22, 2003 10:14PM

<< original....in its original state as made... >>

<< A coin is in its original state the instant it comes off of the coin press >>

a good 1st attempt, but then, circulated coins could never be original.

1st suggested change to your def'n: for uncirc'd coins, should be its original state as it left the mint, not "as made". post-strike mint processing of coins is part of the original manufacturing process. ie. speciall dipping or burnishing processes by the mint for certain coins does occur after striking, & the coins must still be considered original

2nd sugested change: any inherent change to the coin as a result of it's intended environment does not detract from originality. ie. a vf barber quarter that only ever circ'd normally, & nothing else has changed it's appearance, is "original".

changes to a coin's appearance outside it's intended environment should, imo, be called "altered surfaces".

K S

BAJJERFAN · February 23, 2003 12:01AM

I would say that coins stored in the desert would be less likely to tone because of the low or extremely low levels of humidity usually present. Toning is a chemical reaction and for the most part these need a solvent medium (in this case surface moisture) to occur.
If you want to get picky technical then toned coins are not original because they were not minted that way and the coins surface has been chemically altered over time. The chemical makeup of the coin's surface is not the same as it was 125 years ago. Then again I would say that the air pollution in 1878 was not the same ( in degree or compostion) as it is now. The only true way to get an original surface IMHO is to seal a coin in a vacuum immediately after it was struck.
If a dipping treatment removes a surface layer of atoms then one can say the coin has altered surfaces. On the other hand if a dipping treatment reduces the surface atoms back to their original zero oxidation state (without removing the atoms) then one could argue that the coin has original surfaces.

Dog97 · February 23, 2003 2:22AM

<<<"The coin is white, but the face was hit by a train". <<<
ROF
And that's when the boss chewed your ass and you started looking for the good in the coin? **Original white surfaces, typical for the grade**

<<<The collectors that walk in with their grey sheets or blue sheets will have very little luck at our place. To me they are making the statement that they do not value my time or expertise.<<<
If you ever see me hunched over in the corner of your shop talking into my shoe it's because I have a radio built into my shoe and I'm talking to my buddy driving the getaway car outside who's looking at the graysheet. Sometimes I tape the Morgan page of the RedBook under the bill of my hat. Just thought I'd share that with you. Might make you a better dealer if you know how us collectors think & operate too.

So now we know you suck as a salesman and can't deal and the boss chews you out for buying AT coins and you make shameless plugs for your postcards but your comments on problem coins are most interesting.

stman · February 23, 2003 3:02AM

<< The collectors that walk in with their grey sheets or blue sheets will have very little luck at our place. >>

Why is it that just because we have these things, dealers feel like that's what us poor dumb uneducated collectors are going by? Yes I'm one of those that carry the blue and grey sheets. I use them as a guide so I have an idea what something might be trading for. For 20 years (yes John I've looked at a couple coins before) dealers would act like this was their Bible. Always hiding it and never letting me take a peak. So I pay my money for it just like you do. Like I said I use it as a guide.

I never have bought a great coin for sheet prices because I like nice coins and have nice coins. If you sell on Ebay I know we haven't done any business because I rarely even look on Ebay.

So tell me John, would you rather me look like an oakey and walk in with my Coin World Trends sheet, or my PCGS Price guide? will you pay those prices? OH, wait a minute, you would rather me have those guides in my hand when I'm buying.

cleaned---conserved----but still original?

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