The trap of Provenance aka Pedigree

ANACONDA · February 22, 2003 1:16PM

I got to thinkin' about this topic today.

Here are my thoughts.

I'm a personal injury lawyer as some of you know. Quite a few of my competitors, maybe even most, wear Rolex watches.

Now I don't have any personal beef with Rolex but i have to tell you that a watch is a watch, to some degree.

They all keep time and most of them do it well.

My suspicions are that many guys who wear Rolex watches do so because they really don't have any taste. Everyone knows Rolex
watches are expensive. So, because they're expensive, and everybody knows about them, they must be good.

So, rather than come to their own conslusions about what watch to wear, they just buy the one that has a recognizeable seal of approval.

No real taste in watches, just unable or unwilling to develop a connoisseur's palatte.

Now, these are just my thoughts and opinions. I certainly can't read their minds. Maybe i'm wrong.

I would just be hesitant to buy anything because someone else says it is good or Lord of Mercy, just because someone else owned it.

Don't be seduced into thinking that coins with provenances are universally good.

littlewicher · February 22, 2003 1:24PM

I agree to some extent, but some collectors only obtained the most select pieces for their collections. Take for instance your coins. When someone says a coin was an ANACONDA coin, we all take for granted that the coin is a killer, superb coin, because that's the kind of coins you deal in. So pedigrees can be both good and bad. It really comes down to the taste and habit of the specific coin collector. Some may have bought any coins they could find just to complete a set, whereas other collectors may have took their time, only seeking out superb gem pieces.

ANACONDA · February 22, 2003 1:26PM

Good point. Maybe i should start getting "ANACONDA" put on the slabs of my best coins.

mbbiker · February 22, 2003 1:31PM

Yeah you should do that with a few of your "better" coins i think it would be interesting to see where the ANACONDA coins would end up in 15-20 years.

wingedliberty · February 22, 2003 1:36PM

I agree 100%. Real men wear WWII era Hamilton or Bulova and collect MS67FB Mercs

Brian.

cointoast · February 22, 2003 1:40PM

I have a fake "TAG" watch that I bought four years ago for $15 dollars, and that son of a ^%*& keeps perfect time.

When the battery went I brought it to the jewler to get it replaced.

Jewler says to me "Now here's a nice watch, all original...You would'nt believe how many fakes I see out there"

I have no idea what relevence if any this holds concerning the topic of this thread which somehow slips my mind at the moment.

jbsteven · February 22, 2003 1:44PM

I own and wear a Rolex as my daily watch. The reason I bought this watch is because when I was growing up I remember many of my fathers friends had these. They all made great money in the stock market when gold went up to $800+ and ounce. To me a Rolex is a milestone in my life. I am fairly young (32) and have created from scratch a fairly profitable business. I also own a new convertible Mercedes as this is also another milestone in my life. Am I materialistic with the items I have bought, maybe. Do these things make me feel better about myself and the things I have accomplished, you bet. Does buying a nice higher grade coin make me feel good, yes it does. Do I buy coins because the interest me , yep.

where was I heading with this post, not really sure but that is what comes to mind.

KlectorKid · February 22, 2003 1:47PM

I dont own or have ever owned in the past a watch of any kind.

agfox · February 22, 2003 1:53PM

Why in the world would small hamster type critters need a watch for anyways?

While the coin may not be more splendid because of a famous collection it was in, I do love the history of coins. I personally love to watch a coin go through collections in history. I may pay a little more for a coin to know where it's been the last 100 years or so, but it won't be a huge premium.

TomB · February 22, 2003 1:53PM

Hmmmmm...perhaps you might extend your Rolex watch analogy to coins in slabs, specifically PCGS slabs.

LucyBop · February 22, 2003 1:54PM

I have a Killer Betty Boop watch!

Boop Be Ba Doop!

Russ · February 22, 2003 2:02PM

I used to own a Rolex Oyster Perpetual Datejust in stainless/18Kt just like I used to own a Corvette. Sold them both, and am perfectly happy driving a van and wearing a Swiss Army.

The earlier me:

JB,

I was about your age at the time, and completely understand your reasoning and feelings about it.

Russ, NCNE

Dog97 · February 22, 2003 2:04PM

I carried a Timex Indiglo in my pocket for 2 years because the band broke. The little piece of canvas broke, not like I could just go get a new pin from one of my old watches. Everytime somebody at work asked me what time it was I'd say I dunno, my watch is in my pocket. Where's yours?
I never really wanted to pay a prem for a coin simply because some greedy banked owned it or one that some mutli-millionaire acquired simply because he had a million dollars to buy out some other multi-millionaire's collection.
I bid on some ugly $50 Canadian Pittman dimes one time but they sold for about $75. Nothing special, about $25 worth of coin with $50 of provanance.
I almost forgot, I do have a Morgan with the Gary Burghoff pedigree. I call it my Radar dollar. It was toned, cheap and ugly as hell. I can picture Radar O'Riley, with his teddy bear under his arm and his loupe in hand........

cointoast · February 22, 2003 2:04PM

Is it true what girls say about men that drive Corvettes?

agfox · February 22, 2003 2:05PM

You were about 12- 15 years to early on that vette Russ, if you had the new one, you'd never let it go.

Now, don't respond negatively until you drive one, they are incredible.

Bustman · February 22, 2003 2:08PM

Rolex is one of the few watches you can buy, then sell years later for nearly the same, if not more than what you paid for it. I own one, but don't wear it all that often due to the assumptions people make about you when they see you wearing it.

Russ · February 22, 2003 2:09PM

agfox,

I have driven the newer ones, and you're absolutely right. Mine was fast, but the late dates are mind-blowing. I just don't need that anymore. It's one of those things that everybody should do, though.

Russ, NCNE

cointoast · February 22, 2003 2:11PM

I drive a 1977 Ford Pinto...Light green.

Had to replace the floorboards with a used pallet a few times....And the there's the "fume" issue to deal with but hey.....she runs like a top!

Russ · February 22, 2003 2:11PM

<< <i>Rolex is one of the few watches you can buy, then sell years later for nearly the same >>

Bustman,

You are correct. If you keep them in pristine condition, they will and do retain their value extremely well. I sold mine for very close to what I paid for it. Very difficult to do with any other piece of what is essentially expensive jewelry.

Russ, NCNE

khayse · February 22, 2003 2:20PM

I don't have a problem with someone choosing something that has a good reputation when
they don't want to put in the time and effort to be a connesieur. You can't be a connesieur
at everything.

-KHayse

cointoast · February 22, 2003 2:20PM

Same with my fake TAG...Bet I could even get $20 for it.

Bustman · February 22, 2003 2:22PM

Since we are really talking about Pedigree I have to share this. I bought a Bust dollar last week that I liked because of its original tonning, great strike, lack of marks, just an all around great coin. During the major snowstorm I did a little research and discovered it is a Childs Bust Dollar. My coin is pictured right on the cover of the B&M auction catalog from 1999, seated just to the left of the infamous Childs 1804 dollar. I'll have to get PCGS to put the pedigree back on the holder.

stujoe · February 22, 2003 2:27PM

Timex Ironman triathalon here...for many years. Only reason I bought a new one a few years back was because I wanted the Indiglo. No pedigreed slabs either although I can see paying a small premium for one from a well known historical collector. Not particularly because I think he quality is a big issue issue but for the history aspect.

Adrian, you should look into that Anaconda slab thing. Might be worth looking into.

Baley · February 22, 2003 2:37PM

sure, a pedigree is another factor in a coin's history, and if it's an interesting and attractive pedigree, it makes the piece more desireable. but it should not be the sole, nor even majority factor; the coin should have sufficient merit on it's own. I guess the extent of the pedigree premium would depend on what an informed buyer and seller would agree to trade the item for.

I think it's great when someone buys a raw or slabbed but unattributed coin and later proves a provenance, especially a prominent one, like the coin being featured in print a long time ago....

anyway, also own, but rarely wear, a fake rolex my mom brought back from hong kong, looks real, sweep second hand and all, thing keeps perfect time too.

ANACONDA · February 22, 2003 2:42PM

Hey toast....that was funny "so many fakes out there...."

Hey jbsteven...your case is different. You have a connection to the watch.

What kind of Mercedes did you get?

I just got a S430. Never would have predicted that but man that car is made by people who care.

Very safe too, which is the thing that pushed me over to it. I believe it has 10 airbags.

ANACONDA · February 22, 2003 2:43PM

agfox....are you an aggie as in Texas A and M?

Yes, the history. That is cool. I love the history.

ANACONDA · February 22, 2003 2:46PM

khayse...i guess so.....

invest in a watch....keeps it's value....i can see that.

ANACONDA · February 22, 2003 2:47PM

Bustman....that is way cool. i love it when i discover links to previous owners....i just bought a bunch of old plated sales and auction catalogs in the Charles Davis sale for several reasons, one of which is i like to do the same kind of research on coins i own.

stman · February 22, 2003 2:51PM

<< <i>Hmmmmm...perhaps you might extend your Rolex watch analogy to coins in slabs, specifically PCGS slabs. >>

Tom, I agree, I took that as the point to this thread. I could be wrong though.

JML · February 22, 2003 3:09PM

I think that pedigrees add much to a coin and then to the new collection. I would certainly rather have a pedigree than not. It is a link with the past, rather than just a coin.

A couple of guys mentioned the Hayes 1866 $ on another thread. I sold that coin to Jimmy in 1972 or thereabouts for $725. Pedigrees add to a coin.

Keep the records if you have them. All the great sales of the past have been even greater because of the pedigrees. Unencapsulated, pedigreed collections are the absolute best!!

ANACONDA · February 22, 2003 3:11PM

Actually, i'm focused (in this thread) on provenance snobbery. I think holder elitism is a good second cousin that needs whoopin' too.

stman · February 22, 2003 3:45PM

<< <i>Actually, i'm focused (in this thread) on provenance snobbery. I think holder elitism is a good second cousin that needs whoopin' too. >>

Is this what happens when them Texans eat their wheaties?

gsaguy · February 22, 2003 3:48PM

GSA = provenance

GSAGUY

JohnButlerfromLV · February 22, 2003 5:01PM

I never chose to own a Rolex watch. The reason is because when I was a teenager flying around to the coin shows I seen way too many Rolex watches on Coin Dealer's wrists. I figured that I wouldn't want to own something that virtually everybody owned, except for coins. I always wanted to own those. Of course, I do have a distorted view of life having grown up in the coin business. Its always been hard for me to believe people could ask me "Can you make a living doing that?"

Thus far, I have never owned a watch. Really never cared much for knowing what time it was unless I was trying to catch a plane to go to a show or auction. I did miss a number of flights over the years because of that attitude.
Oh well, another day, another coin deal. Always plenty of coins to buy.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories

Singapore · February 22, 2003 9:51PM

Adrian -

I don't care what kind of car you drive, and I think your provenance snobbery angle is off the mark.

A pedigree can prove that the coin in question is not a newly dipped, doctored or whatevered coin that someone embellished in the last year to shove it into an MS66* holder - and lord knows there are a significant number of these newly created 'gems' out there.

My theory is that there should be the same number (or less) of gem mint state 19th or 18th century coins in existence today as there were 50 years ago. And it should be possible to trace all of these coins back to the last person that owned them. Pedigrees make that possible, verifiable and 'provable'.

If you can't trace back your 1815 quarter to where it was before 5 years ago, I believe thats because it didn't look like that 5 years ago.

I noticed also you were quite enthusiastic about the pedigree on your gem Wreath Cent when you were selling it -

jbsteven · February 22, 2003 10:20PM

Adrian

Since buying the car below (CLK320) I have made a decision to own a Mercedes from now on. the quality and workmanship is second to none (except when you get into cars costing $150k plus, but that is another thing). Even though mine is a little smaller than yours I do feel VERY safe in her. You must have just bought that car as I remember talking to you about my car a couple of months ago and you stated you did not have a Mercedes and have never owned one, good choice!

Oh yeah, BTW I have put some nicer non flashy wheels on her since the picture was taken , those stock wheels are ugly!

matteproof · February 22, 2003 10:47PM

Adrian you have made a great observation. Here is my take on it. All people crave affirmation. Most try to obtain it (mistakenly so) through ritualistic displays of POWER. A man who flashes a new (and tacky) Rolex watch is seeking affirmation from his peers and others. He wants to be recognized as having POWER. He does not want to own or wear the vintage and classic Rolex Prince Duo Dial (for example) because few people know what it is and his "power" would thus go unrecognized or unnoticed (he would have to explain the watch's value and significance; and true power, ideally, should be self-evident).

So, he turns to society's recognized symbols of power - often tasteless displays of Las Vegas style kitsch (tacky watches, 7000 sq ft homes, exotic cars, ms70 slabs, whatever) to voice this. He will point to ANYTHING that society calls worthy in order to make HIMSELF appear worthy. To point to the self ALONE runs the risk of revealing WEAKNESS and accordingly, potential rejection.

One quick example: look at the man who drives a new Porsche. He would NOT drive that Porsche if the Porsche were not a symbol of power or that OTHERS recognize that it is HIM driving it. Such a man reveals that he is seeking society's affirmation that he has POWER and significance. Yet, upon closer inspection, such men often reveal their folly when it is discovered that their Porsche has an automatic transmission.

matteproof

cosmicdebris · February 22, 2003 10:58PM

I drive one of these. Great looking, fun to drive, and I can fit a 32 inch TV inside of it. Got it for under $21,000 out the door fully loaded.

agfox · February 22, 2003 11:05PM

I'm from texas, Dallas, then San Antonio for a while, but ag is for silver in my name.

As for cars I have a 70 GTO 400 and a 71 Catalina Brougham 455 HO. Who needs to turn? Everything I do is in a straight line, a very fast straight line.

jbsteven · February 22, 2003 11:15PM

agfox

speaking of fast things, I have a 2001 Yamaha R1 with $13,000 worth of engine modifications. she now puts out 170-175 hp at the tire. 400 lb bike with 175 hp and a 145 LB rider makes for VERY fast straight lines. Me and some buddies are going riding today, my other hobby. I probably could find a few pics of me doing wheelies somewhere......

Sunnywood · February 22, 2003 11:48PM

Adrian,

I don't understand why you think Rolex watches are an example of "provenance snobbery," whereas you were quick to advertise that you just bought a Mercedes S430. Many of us would consider that boast to be a similar case of provenance snobbery. What is the difference between Rolex & Mercedes? Rolex actually produces a very fine watch, and Mercedes produces a very fine car. I fail to see the difference, other than that you own a Mercedes, but evidently choose not to own a Rolex.

I do however agree that buying name-brand items strictly because of the name is indefensible. I also agree that fads & trends don't suit me. For example, I wouldn't care if every other person in the country had "LV" Louis Vuitton luggage - I think it is incredibly ugly, and I don't want to advertise someone else's initials anyway.

Now, what does this have to do with coins? Pedigree or provenance (past ownership) can add a lot of historical interest and value to a coin. But I doubt I would ever buy an ugly coin just because of its pedigree. I also think your line of reasoning is VERY applicable to brand-name slab values. Why the #@($*^ should the same coin be worth twice as much in a PCGS holder as an NGC holder? I once consigned an NGC shield nickel to auction, and with a reserve of $1200 it couldn't sell. I got the coin crossed into a PCGS holder, and it realized over $6000 at auction. Now that is a perfect analogy ... nobody wanted the watch, until it got the Rolex name put on it. Same watch ...

Sunnywood

P.S. Julian .... Oh My God !!! $725 ???? I remember the Jimmy Hayes 1866 dollar not so much because of the provenance, but because of the incredible jaw-dropping quality. What a gorgeous coin. I didn't know what MS seated dollars could look like until I saw that coin. In the case of the Hayes collection, the provenance takes on additional import due to the amazing quality of his coins !!!! Too bad I was only 11 years old in 1972, what missed opportunities !!!

flaminio · February 23, 2003 12:03AM

I don't own a watch. It's extremely rare that I ever need to know exactly what time it is -- most of my life is sequential: do this, then do this, and so on.

Besides, there's a clock in my car

:

Bustman · February 23, 2003 12:12AM

IMO, most people buy a Rolex or Mercedes for status and quality. If thats what floats your boat, fine. Collectors should buy a pedigree for the added history and hopefully, quality. Big difference. Just be sure the coin stands on its own merit.

dwood · February 23, 2003 12:16AM

This thread is absolutely hilarious!

Adrian, this was a joke, right?

I mean, you start out talking about the foolishness of owning a Rolex simply because it's a Rolex, then move on to telling us about your Mercedes? As a personal injury lawyer, I'm sure in the courtroom you're never concerned with perception, right?

I want to change my vote (sorry Clankeye). Anaconda truly IS the funniest poster here!

For the record, I drive a Chevrolet tuck, have a Rolex in the nightstand, and primarily collect raw coins. Hope I'm not giving anyone false impressions?!?

CarlWohlforth · February 23, 2003 12:40AM

I just read "The Psychology of Influence" by Robert Cialdini. One chapter is titled "social proof". The point of that chapter is that people do (or like) what people around them are doing. It confirms their choices.

This is why they run canned laughter in all the TV sit coms. Even though we know it is canned it helps us to join in the laughter. Even fake laughter tells us it is OK for us to laugh also.

So it is probably easier to like a pedigreed coin because you know someone else liked it too. This is especially effective if we hold the previous owner in high esteem.

IrishMike · February 23, 2003 1:14AM

I purchased my first vette, a 1958 in 1968. I drove it out to my grandparents farm to show them (my grandfather used to make studebakers). I parked it next to my grandmother's Amish carriage. Their only comment was, only two people can ride in that? That comment burst my "material bubble" for the rest of my life. BTW I loved that car.

MacCoin · February 23, 2003 1:41AM

My watch is a $12.00 wal-mart job my car is 10 years old and my favorite coins mostly come from cheapslab store or the bargan box at the local dealers. Provenance aka Pedigree its all BS to me

agfox · February 23, 2003 1:46AM

jbsteven that's a bike I'd be scared to own. I test drove a friends Hiyabusa when he purchased it a year? ago or so. I've never been so scared in my life.

That experience turned me into a harley man. More laid back, enjoy things more. My Goat will do 160 with 3.01 highway gears.. Well 154 at least, but she was still pulling when I exited 465. On a bike 160 feels like 450. I've got children now, can't afford to be stupid.

Flamingo, nice nsx. The new model keeps getting delayed because they want it to be the best ever. And I think Honda can do it. For years they showed the big bad boys that a v6 is possible with the right engineering.

I couldn't knock a Mercedes if I tried. They do care about cars. That being said the whole Daimler-Chrysler corp thing is the biggest joke ever. Timewarner-AOL all over.

A rolex is a fine time keeper. But it's not going to save your life if you can't tell time. A Mercedes is safer than almost any other car out there. If you are hit, it has a better chance of doing it's job.

gsaguy · February 23, 2003 3:08AM

I own a Romex. If you don't believe me, check it out at LB.

GSAGUY

paigowjohnny · February 23, 2003 4:10AM

<< <i>I have made a decision to own a Mercedes from now on. >>

Chicks dig Saturns....

ANACONDA · February 23, 2003 4:24AM

Sunny...nuthin' like lettin' eveyone know what kinda watch you're sportin'

adrian

The trap of Provenance aka Pedigree

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