My take on AT, Cleaned, Problem coins, etc.

JohnButlerfromLV · February 22, 2003 8:07PM

I don't have a problem with AT coins because they do have a value. I am in business to buy and sell rare coins. There are many people who have bought material via mail order who bring their coins into our shop to sell. It would be foolish of me to turn away their coins because of cleaning or AT. I do not discriminate because what others may have done to the coins prior to the customer having brought the material into our coin shop.

That being said, all of my problem coins, cleaned or basically unattractive coins get wholesaled out to other dealers. I have built up a tremendous following amongst dealers throughout the country because I cast off many coins that the get sold as the "real deal" in the Ebay, Coin Show and Mail order markets. If you ever take the time to visit our store here in Las Vegas you will see that 98%+ of our inventory in our display cases are nice attractive "original" coins. I say 98% because I do make an occasional mistake or there are some coins still lurking from the person who I replaced. That person had very little numismatic experience. He certainly had very poor eyesight.
I do not want to have to make an excuse about buying a coin back cheaply in the future because I sold a problem coin. That truly is the worst feeling in the world when buying coins from the public or collectors. I have had to break the bad news to too many collectors or heirs of collectors who "got a good price" on their coins. I hate that part of the job. In fact, I would prefer to never have to buy coins from the public or other dealers' collectors. That isn't realistic though.

I personally do not sell coins to collectors that I do not want to buy back. You can ask Mark Scott the owner of Sahara Coins about that. Believe me, I have come close to being fired because of the positions I take on coins. If I do not like the coin, I will not hesitate to tell a customer. I have killed many sales of coins in my store because of my mouth. One of my best is regarding a CC morgan in a PCGS MS61 holder. A ebay customer called to get a better description. My comment was "The coin is white, but the face was hit by a train". Needless to say, the customer did not want the coin. I am sure Mark can tell you of other great gems that have come out of my mouth that has killed sales. Perhaps there is a reason I no longer have a desk in front of the store. I am now in a office in the back. If you want descriptions like that than I would be someone you would want to deal with. If you want salesmanship. Forget about calling me. Just last week Mark called me "the worst f***ing salesman in the world" as he angrily left my office. I am no doubt right up there amongst the worst. I also have no doubt that my writing this on the PCGS message board could also result in my termination. Fortunately for me, I know there are always plenty of rare coins or rare postcards to be bought and sold.

To address STman's concerns regarding my positions on AT/Doctored coins while I was at PCGS.

When I worked at PCGS I offered Rick M. to call some of the owners of the doctored coins to tell them what I thought they should do with their crap. He never let me do that because he preferred a more professional and business oriented approach. I believe Rick's approach was the correct one at the time. I would have told the submitting dealer what I did not like about his coin in a very unprofessional way. I have a habit of being unprofessional at times. (I thank Rick for having patience with me when I would get quite abit out of line with him. He was a great person to work with). I would have told the dealer to take the crap off the coin and leave them alone. My pet peeve is Blue Gold. Where in the world is Blue Gold mined? I know it was not here in Nevada. If only Ed Trompeter was here today to let us know where he was able to buy Blue haze colored gold. To me blue hazed gold should trade for less than half of blue sheet, but collectors still seem to flock to the stuff at strong prices.
The only reason I left PCGS and also why I am not currently back with PCGS is because I cannot afford to live in Orange County at what they pay their graders and they could not afford to pay what I need to leave Las Vegas.

Adrian or Joe O' Conner can price their pretty material at whatever price they choose. (That also includes Pinnacle, Legend, B & M and any other top notch retail coin dealer). If you need greysheets for material like they sell than you obviousily do not value their expertise. I believe that both Joe and Adrian have great eyes for rare coins. If either one wants to come work for us than please give us a call on Monday. We can use your experience and your great taste in coins.

Thanks,
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories
By the way, I follow the same principles in my vintage postcard business. I am without a doubt one of the priciest sellers of vintage postcards in the world, but I do have great stuff. And no, don't bother to try to negotiate with me on postcards either. I've told plenty collectors in that business to buy their postcards elsewhere if they do not like my take on the United States free market/Capitalism system.

cosmicdebris · February 22, 2003 8:50PM

I still think that if you feel so strongly about not selling junk to your customers these coins should not be sold to other dealers so they can sell them to their customers. Once a coin is known to be junk it should be taken off the market so no one winds up with it.

DHeath · February 22, 2003 10:14PM

Pretty good read John. Wish I'd looked the shop up on my last trip to LV. I left Fullerton and returned to the east coast 12 years ago, and I gotta tell you, I miss the SW Cuisine.

John, what percentage of the stuff you see being sold is messed with? Oh yeah, did the same folks keep sending the same junk when you were at PCGS?

IrishMike · February 22, 2003 10:19PM

John where are you located in Vegas, we will be there at the end of March.

nwcs · February 22, 2003 10:43PM

You're the type of dealer I'd enjoy working with. In my field of software development, we're much the same way. We don't take crap, tell it like it is, and often end up in trouble for what we say. And there is always a premium for top level skill. Too bad the world is run by C students who end up being the bosses...

JohnButlerfromLV · February 23, 2003 2:49AM

<< Pretty good read John. Wish I'd looked the shop up on my last trip to LV. I left Fullerton and returned to the east coast 12 years ago, and I gotta tell you, I miss the SW Cuisine.

John, what percentage of the stuff you see being sold is messed with? Oh yeah, did the same folks keep sending the same junk when you were at PCGS? >>

Its scary how high the percentage is.
The same kind of junk did not show up at PCGS until the collectors club was started.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories

JohnButlerfromLV · February 23, 2003 2:54AM

<< I still think that if you feel so strongly about not selling junk to your customers these coins should not be sold to other dealers so they can sell them to their customers. Once a coin is known to be junk it should be taken off the market so no one winds up with it. >>

Bill,
You are welcome to set up a "junk" coin trust to buy these items off the market.
You should be able to get by with an initial fund of $50,000,000 which should last at least the first year, I hope.
I would be happy to sign a supplier agreement with you so that you can verify these items are melted down to be sold in bullion bar form.
I would be interested in knowing how many millions you would be willing to lose to save the world of the cull silver dollars and type coins.
I may become your biggest supplier of cull silver dollars as they got pretty banged up here in Vegas because of the slot machines.
Thanks for your consideration,
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories

MacCoin · February 23, 2003 3:17AM

<< I personally do not sell coins to collectors that I do not want to buy back >>

What the hey guy just because you do want to buy it back, that do mean I don't want to buy it. well unless it was something off the net (thats a crap shop anytime). anyway what I asking if I come into your shop wanting to buy a coin you do like you won't sell it to me. wow its hard to beleive you make a living at this. My good old dealer ask me why I like or want the coin gives me the opption. but if its a coin he don't like sometime I get a hell of a deal.

stman · February 23, 2003 3:45AM

<< John, you seem like a nice guy so I really don't want to get into it with you. Having said that.... I hope you are not another one of those dealers that feels that just because a collector might not walk the boarse at all the major shows, or attend all the major auctions that they know nothing. Yes it's good experience but it doesn't always take that to judge a coin. I'm glad you would pay more than face for a doctored or AT coin.

What bothers me is some of your first comments on the board were like saying AT coins are OK, and they always have a value. And you stating you are an ex pcgs grader, that even bothers me more.

To me a dealer should have better ethics than to not care about buying and selling doctored or AT coins. Yes I know if there is a market for it than why not. Actually I think I have been in your shop before.

Anyway, these are just my opinions and welcome to the board. >>

A few things I responded to in another thread.

<< Why is it that just because we have these things, dealers feel like that's what us poor dumb uneducated collectors are going by? Yes I'm one of those that carry the blue and grey sheets. I use them as a guide so I have an idea what something might be trading for. For 20 years (yes John I've looked at a couple coins before) dealers would act like this was their Bible. Always hiding it and never letting me take a peak. So I pay my money for it just like you do. Like I said I use it as a guide.

I never have bought a great coin for sheet prices because I like nice coins and have nice coins. If you sell on Ebay I know we haven't done any business because I rarely even look on Ebay.

So tell me John, would you rather me look like an oakey and walk in with my Coin World Trends sheet, or my PCGS Price guide? will you pay those prices? OH, wait a minute, you would rather me have those guides in my hand when I'm buying. >>

Oh, nice try on the plug, but I will never do business with you.

ksteelheader · February 23, 2003 3:55AM

John Butler, you are what we need more of in the world!! Say what you have to say in your own way. That is how I am. I try not to step on toes, but some people take everything too personal. What a lot of people need to learn in this life is that opinions are like assh---s, everybody has one!!!! Thanks for speaking your true thoughts. Ken

stman · February 23, 2003 3:59AM

<< To address STman's concerns regarding my positions on AT/Doctored coins while I was at PCGS >>

Actually more of my concerns were your position on buying and selling AT and doctored coins as a dealer, and ethics I feel a dealer should have concerning this. All the talk on this board about trying to clean this up, then you come on here and state to a puplic forum that they have value and send them to you.

Why, so they can be sold again to the public. Good etics here.

Anyway John, it's been a pleasure meeting you, but this debate is taking too much time and energy for me. So I have said my opinions and will leave it at that.

Regards, stman

MacCoin · February 23, 2003 4:18AM

if we like it or not the TAs are out there I may even buy one.

we can't do anything about that but I ain't pay big money for it.

oh yes welcome to the board

don't worry about old stman he just tells it like he sees it.

chances are I'll never visit you shop but if your an ebay seller I'ld take a look at your auctions

it won't hurt to look and see how your coins compare to my dealers. may we can do a little busenss.

braddick · February 23, 2003 4:40AM

A highlight of our Las Vegas vacation awhile back (on the windiest day in LV's history!) was my visit with John. I was also able to pick up a couple of very pretty coins (one slabbed PCGS "R/B" Lincoln with intense GREEN/MAROON toning! and one raw, colorful Ike that has since also slabbed out).

I'd have bought more, but my wife was with me. Well, you know how that goes...

Honest Dealer running an honest shop.
Also, if I don't embarrass John by stating so, the nicest and cleanest shop I've ever been inside.
It's nice to visit a professional coin shop and not feel you need to take a hot shower afterward (for more reasons than one).

relayer · February 23, 2003 5:21AM

John,

I bought coins from you and was always happy with the coins and the service.

Now about this blue gold - I've never seen such a thing, but I'm afraid to admit I'm the kind of chucklehead that would buy it if I did see it.

jom · February 23, 2003 5:24AM

John: Nice post. Could you elaborate on "Blue" gold? Just curious.

jom

Russ · February 23, 2003 6:30AM

<< That being said, all of my problem coins, cleaned or basically unattractive coins get wholesaled out to other dealers. I have built up a tremendous following amongst dealers throughout the country because I cast off many coins that the get sold as the "real deal" in the Ebay, Coin Show and Mail order markets. >>

I think we could debate the merits of selling off these coins to other, obviously less honest, dealers forever and never make any headway. John has a very reasonable argument that these coins have to go somewhere.

But, this causes a question to pop in to my head: John, why are you buying these coins in the first place? Why not simply refuse to participate in the recycling of this material at all?

BTW, I should note for the record that I've done business with Sahara and have been absolutely thrilled. Perfect service.

Russ, NCNE

beartracks42 · February 23, 2003 6:50AM

John Butler,
Were you ever associated with Numismatics Wholesalers, Inc. of LV? If so, I have bought from you in the past and was always satisfied with our dealings.

JohnButlerfromLV · February 23, 2003 7:04AM

<< 

<< But, this causes a question to pop in to my head: John, why are you buying these coins in the first place? Why not simply refuse to participate in the recycling of this material at all?

Russ, NCNE >>

So what would you do in this case?
A couple comes in with a set of CC dollars. All of the coins have been cleaned in one way or another. Do I let the couple go ahead and sell them to a pawn shop for $5 per coin?
Let them sell them to another coin shop for a $1000 for the set?
Or pay them fair money based on my experience in handling such material?
My offer was well in excess of twice the next highest offer they had.

To me they seemed quite relieved and very happy that their coins had substantial value and that they did not have to lose money on a set they had built years ago from mail order dealers.
The melt value on the 13 coins would run about $46 which is what one the members will net once he buys the deal from me for a 20% profit then has to take a loss through his get rid of the "junk coin" trust fund. It'll be a shame to lose the 79CC, 80CC, 81CC, 85CC, 89CC, 93CC as an option for collectors that cannot afford a nice original coin.
I cannot wait until this fund starts buying up all the cleaned/AT Bust Dollars. An original problem free common date Bust Dollar in VG condition should be worth thousands once this fund removes 90% of the current existing population of circulated bust dollars.
That should really get the rare coin market going.
I can see it now, a problem free Shield nickel in Good trading for $150 because all the circulated shield nickels with problems have been removed from the market.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories

JohnButlerfromLV · February 23, 2003 7:24AM

<< I'ld take a look at your auctions

it won't hurt to look and see how your coins compare to my dealers. may we can do a little busenss. >>

We sell under Sahara Coins, however, I do not have anything to do with the auctions. That is Mark's area. We generally utilize ebay to get rid of slab coins we no longer want to inventory. We typically start them off at $1 and let them sell. I do not look at the auctions because some of these coins go for less than I am willing to pay for the coin. I have been trained by some of the world's best numismatists to buy anything that you can make a profit on.
Besides, I run average of around 2000 auctions per month for my other business. The last thing I want to do at the shop is sit there all day listing coins on ebay while at work. I get to do that virtually every night and most of the weekend.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories

JohnButlerfromLV · February 23, 2003 7:28AM

<< John Butler,
Were you ever associated with Numismatics Wholesalers, Inc. of LV? If so, I have bought from you in the past and was always satisfied with our dealings. >>

Yes, that was my company.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories

wondercoin · February 23, 2003 9:55AM

"I do have many happy customers who do place a value on my experience. One of those customers bought an incredible NGC MS68* Washington Quarter earlier this year before the run up in their prices. The quarter is one of the five nicest Washington Quarters I have ever seen. Believe me, he paid a strong price when he bought the coin. Needless to say, he is quite happy he did follow our advice on that coin."

John: I believe I was the underbidder on the 1941(p) Wash Quarter in the Heritage sale for the PCGS-MS67. You are referring to that coin? That darn "MS68" from out boards outbid me for the coin at auction and had his sights on making it an NGC-MS68*, which he did (I was simply thinking of adding it to my PCGS-MS67 collection). IMHO, there are dozens of monster PCGS-MS67 Wash Quarters out there (just like the 1941), as for years PCGS simply graded to a standard where MS67 was bascially as good as it got (what are your thoughts on this, as you must have seen a quarter or two worthy of an MS68, but never getting it when you were there?). Yes, in the past couple years, PCGS has released less than a dozen MS68 silver Wash quarters, many of which are super coins. So, there is progress. But, I wish PCGS was more comfortable using the ENTIRE MS grading scale when it comes to coins like silver Roosies and Wash quarters (lincoln cents, white Franklins, etc). If they did - "MS68" (Dave) might never have outbid me for that 1941 quarter in the firstplace!

Wondercoin.

JohnButlerfromLV · February 23, 2003 2:38PM

PCGS may be a little too tight on nicely toned high end Washington Quarters, however I do see many 66s and 67s that they have graded a tad too loose. Including some of the coins I made earlier this year. At least they finally started to think MS68 on some of the Washington Quarters, I do not believe that was possible a few years back.
The Roosevelts are definitely not as tough in MS68 as they are making them out to be, in my opinion, which really does not matter since I do not grade for PCGS. I believe Roosevelt dimes is an area that they should be rethinking their line for 67/68. By the way, I hate looking at large quantities of Roosevelt dimes for high grade coins. I very rarely look at the original rolls that come into our shop.

The good aspect about PCGS grading some coin series too tight is that they have forced collectors to seek other options on nice material. Fortunately the market for NGC high grade material is starting to catch up with PCGS because of the lack of PCGS material in the marketplace. This should benefit both the collectors who currently hold nice NGC material and the dealers who submit coins to NGC.
We do not submit much to NGC ourselves because our client base is focused on PCGS material.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories

Bear · February 23, 2003 2:49PM

John, while I cant say I agree with everything you have to say, I like you blunt straight

kind of talk. I welcome you to our family and look foward to your views and opinions on

all aspects of the coin collecting field. We can all benefit from your experience and are

fortunate you have joined us. Regards Bear

JohnButlerfromLV · February 23, 2003 5:21PM

Thanks Bear.
I'll try to be better in the future.
John

mbbiker · February 23, 2003 5:29PM

<< Once a coin is known to be junk it should be taken off the market so no one winds up with it. >>

If he did this in the next 5 years their would be almost nothing left to buy, Coin shows forget it, most of the coins at a coin show are "junk".

FrattLaw · February 23, 2003 5:31PM

John

I'll be in Vegas next weekend. Wheres your store and what, if any, weekend hours do you have?
By the way, got any toned Peace $?

Thanks
Michael

Dog97 · February 23, 2003 5:36PM

In case Joe or Adrain don't want the job can I have it?

cosmicdebris · February 23, 2003 7:17PM

When I said:

<< Once a coin is known to be junk it should be taken off the market so no one winds up with it. >>

I am reffering to obviously AT'd crap along with cleaned and whizzed stuff. Not all coins can be MS65 +++++

kranky · February 23, 2003 9:03PM

John, I like your straight-talking style.

I'm one of those people who would have a graysheet with me if I visited your shop. It has nothing to do with disrepecting your time and expertise, though. It's so I have some idea what a coin should go for. I don't want to pay $500 for a $100 coin. And I also don't want to waste someone's time by asking to look at $5,000 coins that I can't afford.

Your discussion on the CC dollar purchase reminded me of when I used to work for a place that did video duplication. Like coins, it can be a very price-sensitive business. When people want thousands of copies, a few cents difference per copy can make or break the deal. I found that "there's a market for every dub" - if people want the cheapest possible duplication, they get off-brand tape (possibly used once and erased) and little quality control. People who want quality pay more, and get new, name-brand tape and each tape checked end-to-end for quality. I guess there's a market for every coin, as well.

Baley · February 23, 2003 11:24PM

<< Once a coin is known to be junk it should be taken off the market so no one winds up with it. >>

heh, and who is going to be doing all this "taking of junk off the market"??

and does the same concept apply to all the junk cars, antiques, and every other collectible out there?

where is the stuff supposed to go, and who takes the financial hit for the good deed?

whoever made that statement needs to qualify it, or at least tell us what color the sky is in their world.

tjkillian · February 24, 2003 12:57AM

Mr. Butler, I like your style. I'm going to make it a point everytime I go to Las Vegas to stop by your store. About greysheet though: I'm with Kranky as I carry a greysheet to make sure I don't ask to see a coin a clearly cannot afford. I have not memorized every coin that interests me and I take a quick peek at the greysheet to have a ballpark idea of its value. Just because you price a coin at twice greysheet does not offend me a all. I just don't want to ask to see a $5,000 coin I cannot possibly afford.

Welcome

Tom

JohnButlerfromLV · February 24, 2003 1:05AM

One of the ways we mark our pricier coins is by placing a red dot on coins that we are asking over $500 for. Unfortunately, we do not mark our currency that way. Our raw coins very seldom will run more than $500 since most of those coins are sent in to be graded.

Yes, I did get too carried away by the greysheet thing. You are welcome to bring in your sheets.
I was recently tainted by a collector who wanted to buy a PQ white PCGS MS65 1885-CC for back of greysheet.
We typically pay up to grey sheet ask for coins like that.
I should have not let his bargain hunting cloud my thoughts.
Thanks for pointing out my stupidity on the grey sheet position.
Sorry,
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories

Saturday we are open from 10-2.
2580 south decatur
This is on the Southeast corner of Sahara & Decatur.
Chili's, Starbucks and Einstein Bagels are in our shopping center.

My take on AT, Cleaned, Problem coins, etc.

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