My initial thoughts watching this courtroom like drama unfold since this morning reminded me of the vintage Gregory Peck movie "To Kill a Mockingbird"... now after todays events conclude I think a better title sequel would read "To Kill a Morganburner"...
Witch hunt...First Toadstoll1 (remember him guys?) Then Aswimmer (Does selling AT coins really give the right to insult, threaten etc?) and now your attacking Southernbell......
To me it's not a matter of his coins being AT or if 2 pictures are the same anymore.....Watching the level of hatred that has risen out of this thread..... the threats..... the insults...... the name calling.........
To me that's just as bad. No, I'll take that back, it's worse.
Oh give me a break cointoast, you were wrong about swimmer and now you are trying to attack us on his alter egos toadstool and southernbelle. Please we are not so stupid as not to be able to see through you.
This is the reply that I received from Mr. Swimmer
I have taken your advice and ended the auction early. I know I have been reading the stuff for days now and spoke my peace earlier in a few long posts. I have already agreed to quit listing the remaining coins from my GFs collection
Regards,
Alan ====================== I very well may have been fooled by deceptive photography and computer enhancements. I am glad that no one was fiscally damaged, but the tone of many of the participants was unpleasant. It further illustrates that collectors should have the right of return on anything that they have not physically examined. For the record, PNG members offer 2 week return priveleges for any reason whatsoever, even if the coin has been physically examined.
PNG member, same identity as Julian, a veteran numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
I, for one, learned a great deal just by seeing what could be pulled over on JML and Coinguy1 by use of "doctored" images. The image just ain't the coin - and it doesn't matter who did the image.
Buy from reputable people - WITH return privileges. And use that privilege if you're not absolutely satisfied.
I gotta admit Julian (and Mark) when I read your opinions I wondered which coins you were looking at. To chalk this one up to photographic manipulation and deception is horrible, but I am happy to see you back. I didn't feel you were treated with due respect today, but it was a bizarre situation, and only an airtraffic controller had the "eye" this time. Good or bad, this is a story to remember to retell.
<<Have you sent a PM to Toadstoll1? Or do you believe there all the same person to?>>
I don't know. And, does it really matter?
From what I read, Toadstool was practicing the art of deceipt just like our other forum participant.
I've got no problem with anyone that comes here and tries to contribute, but doing so without lying to us right out of the shute would make the experience a lot more pleasurable.
Sorry, that's just my opinion.
If you don't mind people lying to you, then that's fine as well. We'll all entitled to our opinions.
His neighbors, his house? Heck, we have his soul. Bring him on down, in his strap-around lab coat, de-brief him, and force him underground to ferret out other coin doctors.
I won't say if they're the same but there're sure alot of simularities. Sir, my advice is, be sure you don't dump the chemicals down the toilet, into the cities drinking water, that would be doing a greater injustice. It's funny how I started to put these pics together back on page 5. Sometimes looking at the negatives can show a little more detail. And dip every coin that you MIGHT of doctored,,,,,,now hurry, dip dip dip away!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Good advice Toast! It shouldn't be 2 hard to find another scumbag! And maybe we can find another Toast to get his back!
Chris
"The last thing we want to see is a smoking gun. A gun smokes after it's been fired…. If someone waits for a smoking gun, it's certain we will have waited too long."
No way man........Never again, I've learned my lesson and learned it but GOOD!
Attack Attack Attack Attack That's my new motto!
Of course we mught have a little collateral damage here and there but what the hey...If we have to destroy a few good ones to get one bad one then its worth it!
Lets start with the Southerbelle lady.She had a mouth on her. I'll go and see what I can dig up on her...Bet she's a no good trailer trash welfare case.
I'll report back..Get the stones ready boyz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>Maybe we could even set up monitoring at his house.............. >>
His address is right on his listings and in an earlier post, he invited "us" over to see if he actually has the laboratory "we" say he does. I personally don't care if he tones coins for fun or as a hobby but when you start selling them as the real deal to unsuspecting buyers for much more then an untoned coin goes for them I have a problem with that.
It's not a witch hunt. The guy is flat out busted. And if eBay won't stop scammers, somebody needs too. How many of his buyers are going to quit collecting when they find out what they really bought? How many of them spent what they thought was good money and are only going to find out they have an average coin with AT on it?
I'd love to find out everything is on the up-and-up with his sale. Heck. I'D buy some. But so far I don't see anything but a scam and he's not convincing me differently.
As far as the level of anger here, just how should we treat those that are abusing the hobby?
I have a very good reason for being angry. Have you tried to sell any toned Morgans lately that were original buy not in slabs? It is nearly impossible unless you are good at hype, which I am not. It is guys like this that ruin the market. I have dozens of MS63ish Morgans with nice toning that I don't dare try to sell raw. I have to go to the expense of slabbing them because so many buyers have been burnt buying raw coins.
Yes, I am very angry, and when I can vent my anger at one of the perpetrators of AT garbage they will feel the heat.
I should admit that the weight of circumstantial evidence is pretty significant. And, that Don Heath pointed out incontrovertible evidence that the image has been played with today... I feel compelled to change my opinion regarding these two coins.
As for the passion, there's no denying that there was plenty of it. I am loath to paint the typical forum membership as hateful, enraged, irresponsible people who are swayed by a mob mentality. The lot of us are simply sick and tired of crooks trying to take advantage of unsuspecting collectors. That the lot of us responded vociferously and forcefully to the alleged swindler is a good thing; we should not simply lay there and just take it anymore. The "professionals" of this industry -- the dealers and the grading services -- have not done enough.
WE WANT TO TAKE BACK OUR HOBBY.
IrishMike PM'ed me to ask why the heck I've been defending him. I wasn't so much defending him as I was trying to defend a process. I am beyond that now. This is not a court of law, and this doesn't require a burden of proof of beyond a reasonable doubt. This is a court of a different sort, of ASwimmer's peers if you will, and we use a preponderance of the evidence and common sense as our protocol. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then ...
Where we go on from here I do not know. I surmise that there aren't many of us who can afford to be tied down in litigation. But, no litigation is no-cost to the plaintiff, even if the lawyer is a sister or a cousin. Do you honestly think that the sister or cousin can simply afford to spend much of his or her time doing his dirty work? For free?
Where do we go from here? I think just continuing to keep an ever watchful eye for the numismatic con artists that infest our hobby.
I would strongly advise people not to engage in auction interference no matter how sure you are of a counterfeit/altered/AT coin. The reason I say this is that I am sure with the amount of people here, most of us will ultimately know a bidder in one of these auctions and let the bidder know what is going on. As I said earlier, I personally rely on eBay for a source of my income and can not put my account in jeopardy by directly contacting any of the bidders. Auction interference is grounds for suspension on eBay.
We all should be thankful for the modern age of communication, i.e. the internet. Imagine if this were 20 years ago, the AT business never would have seen the light of day.
I am not on here under any other name. If you think I am you are flat out wrong and I am getting sick of this. You guys are like apack of wild animals. It just sad that my fellow collectors are so into the thrill of the hunt and kill.
Swimmer, why not adress our questions to to show us you are not lieing instead od just say no thats BS. Why did you edit the pic? Comes to mind first and the second one Why did you tell us you didnt edit it even though we all know you did?
Where do 'we' go from here? Perhaps it's better to ask where does 'he' go from here? It's like I said, if he were AT'ing his own coins and selling them as such on ebay, most forum members wouldn't care. A few of them would even commend him for being honest about it, even if they didn't like the fact that he was AT'ing coins.
Instead we get this:
1) In correspondence to forum members who have asked him about his AT'ing of coins, he says, "oh no, these are original in color...right out of grandpa's collection. 2) Then he comes on the forum and says he has no idea what we're talking about. ME, I'm not a coin doctor. I'm just a 'little guy'. 3) A member 'outs' him with a pic of a white coin that he buys on ebay, and then shows up two weeks later artifically toned.....out of grandpa's hoard no less. 4) Then a member shows how he's actually altering the scans to try to cover his actions!!!! 5) Then he's back on here, "who me, I didn't go into my ebay file and change the pic, must have been someone else".
I mean, come on. How much slack do you cut this guy?
If you've ever read any of my posts, then you know that I don't often get embroiled in battles on the board. I try to either be informative, or witty, and I usually fail at the latter.
But this one was just too much.
As much as I love toned coins and all they represent, I despise what I believe to be outright FRAUD, especially when toned coins are involved.
Cointoast... Your not even close to "up to speed".
I am greatful that the forum members have been able to expose people for who they are. I am glad they can expose a fraud when they see one. In my opinion, they do a great service for many of us newbies here in pointing out the frauds on ebay.
On the other hand, to try to make a point on a forum member who has done nothing to harm you is completely out of line. Russ will always be a friend to many of us on the forum and unfortunately, you just burned your bridges.
You can expose everyone in the forum if you please. In fact, feel free to PM me and I will give you my website link and you can dig up as much stuff as you please...unfortunately, you will still be an idiot in my book.
Cointoast- you just lost a load of credibility as far as I am concerned. What is your problem with Russ? And how much evidence do you need to see before you finally break down and realize a certain sleazeball is nothing more than a numismatic con artist?
Fraud... Do forum members really see it when it jumps up and smacks them between the eyes ? Everyone is on this AT kick which does cost collectors money but No One says a damn thing about the obvious blatant Picture Enhancement that is also done and costs Collectors dearly also. IMO Picture Enhancement is just as big of a problem as AT. Sure it does not destroy the coin but in the long run it will certainly destroy a persons pocket book and his out look on the hobby as a whole.
Dont shy away folks as many on these forumns have commented on how Beautiful a obviously enhanced coin is and said nothing.
If Fraud is spoken, address All of the problems and the Artists.
Wow.......I can't believe how many people have said it is a different coin. Morgans are not my area of expertise.....since I collect Lincolns. However......being an engineer with an MBA, I have had plenty of math classes, statisitical analyses classes, etc. I can tell you that the chances of two coins having identical marks is impossible (did you hear me....it isn't unlikely.....but impossible....ok?..even if you tried...it would be impossible...it just depends on how much magnification you would need to reveal it). It would be like two individuals having the identical DNA. Basically the marks on the surface of a coin can be altered......and marks can be removed....to the point you couldn't tell they were the same coin. This isn't the case here. These two coins possess identical marks.....and if that isn't enough.....they are the same date, etc. Anybody who thinks they are different coins.....either does not like conflict, are genuinely nice people who don't like to accuse others of wrong doing.....or else you got your head in the sand or up your *ss. That being said......I am not an expert on the different dies used on Morgans. But I do know....if it looks like a pig.....and smells like a pig......and goes sooooooey soooooooey.....than it is a frickin' pig! Lets put a stick in this thread and move on. Don't buy his cookies if you don't like the way they taste. He is going to deny it, change his user name.....and continue to shake and bake.
<< <i>Everyone is on this AT kick which does cost collectors money but No One says a damn thing about the obvious blatant Picture Enhancement >>
Geez. That would take a lifetime to check every coin on eBay. You get started and I'll be right there.
You're right that it is a problem. I was a victim of it myself but it would be hard to detect before hand. You need to have the coin in hand and then compare it to the scan. The enhancing done on the Morgan in question on this thread was first rate and unless we hadn't seen the previous scan, nobody would have known.
Do you have any suggestions on how to check otherwise?
<< <i>Fraud... Do forum members really see it when it jumps up and smacks them between the eyes ? Everyone is on this AT kick which does cost collectors money but No One says a damn thing about the obvious blatant Picture Enhancement that is also done and costs Collectors dearly also. IMO Picture Enhancement is just as big of a problem as AT. Sure it does not destroy the coin but in the long run it will certainly destroy a persons pocket book and his out look on the hobby as a whole.
Dont shy away folks as many on these forumns have commented on how Beautiful a obviously enhanced coin is and said nothing.
If Fraud is spoken, address All of the problems and the Artists.
Ken >>
Ken, you couldn't possibly be talking about bondman could you?
The Coin enhancement for sure is not confined to Ebay. Generally it is most blantant on Ebay but some of the National Dealers also seem to need a little enhancement to sell thier coins also. I have ran into this and I am positive others have also. I suppose a person that enjoys Toned Coins is much more susceptable to these practices than a person that just occasionally buys a Toned piece. Maybe that is the reason more is not said about Enhancement Fraud. Certainly a person has the right to try to sell a item for his price, but he does not have the right to deceive the potential buyer.
Probably I really blew it a couple of weeks ago when I brought up a certain coin that I had owned and then it was put up on Ebay. At the time I figured if the coin was just brought to the attention of the people here the point would be made. Most only could Ohh and Ahh about the coin and really missed the point of why it was shown on this forumn. Next time, if there is one, I will not be a meek little person and beat around the bush, I will come out and say something. Also at the time the Auction was current and it was my feeling that saying something would be interferring with the sellers auction as it was linked to this forum.
Maybe what is needed is a daily "Hey Take a Look at This" thread that is void of comments but just points out the abuses of our Hobby.
I do not believe the person you mentioned frequents my little corner of the Hobby. Others do though and it just plain makes the head shake in amazement.
DAKRA said to me "You can expose everyone in the forum if you please. In fact, feel free to PM me and I will give you my website link and you can dig up as much stuff as you please...unfortunately, you will still be an idiot in my book.
Folks - Great thread! I am not sure if it is the same coin or not. But, to my eye, it is AT (As are all the others he's selling, IMHO). To me, that's all I need to know.
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
You are wrong and I will state again I did not alter the photo nor have I ever colored a coin. You can say it all you want but when these coins come back in a slab then you better say your all sorry. And of course if they come back in BBs then I will be the first one to say that my coins were not naturally toned but I can and will never say that I doctored them for it is not true so get it through your heads. I did not alter nor doctor anything. PERIOD. AND BTW I never said someone else altered the picture. I can only say that I did not. You are concerned about the coins, great so I am submitting them, and let that settle this. I will never bow to pressure to confess to something I did not do and that is the final. It probably would be easier to say ok I made a mistake but I cannot admit to something I am innocent of. I may be guilty of unknowingly selling AT coins if they come back that way but that is it. I will confess to what I did if I did it but never be coerced into an admission of guilt when innocent. I think that is pretty clear.
I'm not sure about this place being compared to Salem! It is what it is, an open forum where collectors can freely share ideas without the constraints of political correctness or pending lawsuits. Some have an agenda and go a little overboard, others just enjoy a good coin mystery in the heart of winter.
I've been having intermittent server problems and wasn't able to post these additional close-ups yesterday morning. At the risk of beating a dead dog I'll add them to the mix of images. What strikes me most about them is the similarities in the details, like the dings and pimples on the lettering and devices, and even small cuds on the rim. These could be the result of coins struck at close intervals at the mint, but the sum of all similarities gets a little overwhelming. Either way, it's been a learning experience for me about some of the finer points of the Morgan design.
After watching the events unfold Saturday night (and after initially actually feeling that Swimmer was wronged after reading his earlier posts before he was exposed) I have purposely stepped aside from this thread. However, after reading Marcalan 84's post on p. 12 (the engineer with an MBA) I feel motivated to return.
If anyone has a lingering doubt about whether evidence presently exists sufficient to establish probable cause of fraud then I urge you to go back and read Marcalan 84's post. More to the point, however, and this is what has brought me back here, is Marcalan's closing comment that, "He [Swimmer] is going to deny it, change his user name, and continue to shake and bake."
Unfortunately that statement will prove to be true IF no one initiates legal action. We have a system of justice based upon laws in this country which only work when they are acted upon by the authorities. I urge anyone on this board who lives in the San Francisco area to contact the U.S. Attorney General's office and provide them a copy of this thread. A search warrant should issue ASAP before Swimmer destroys more evidence. (He has already cancelled multiple of his various auctions for the "toned" coins including the subject coin that exposed him.)
On the other hand this is fully fair to Mr. Swimmer as well because he will be entitled to all of the safeguards of our legal system and have the opportunity to have a grand jury of his peers review same to make sure there is in fact a basis for returning a true bill.
I have read the entire thread (WOW) and the thought that sticks in my mind is to be very careful of absolutes!!!
We have had members insist that these were different coins because of perceived differences or worse because of expertise.
It is kind of funny to say that the expert can tell you if the coins are the same if he (she) held them in their hand but looking at scans takes a different eye and expertise as I think this thread points out.
This is not to disparage the experts just a note to say that we all have things we need to learn.
Comments
You pulled the auctions because you've been nailed. Give it up.
Russ, NCNE
To me it's not a matter of his coins being AT or if 2 pictures are the same anymore.....Watching the level of hatred that has risen out of this thread..... the threats..... the insults...... the name calling.........
To me that's just as bad. No, I'll take that back, it's worse.
Assuming that 'we' first put him in a hole, would you not agree that he did nothing but continue to dig that hole deeper?
GSAGUY
I suppose now your saying that Atswimmer, Toadstool1 AND Southernbell are the same person?
The big question here is....Who's next?
Talk about paranoia.
GSA..Yup agree with you on that but not on the methods....Have you sent a PM to Toadstoll1? Or do you believe there all the same person to?
Do you believe that the end result could not have been obtained without the personal attacks?
I have taken your advice and ended the auction early. I know I have been
reading the stuff for days now and spoke my peace earlier in a few long
posts. I have already agreed to quit listing the remaining coins from my GFs
collection
Regards,
Alan
======================
I very well may have been fooled by deceptive photography and computer enhancements. I am glad that no one was fiscally damaged, but the tone of many of the participants was unpleasant. It further illustrates that collectors should have the right of return on anything that they have not physically examined. For the record, PNG members offer 2 week return priveleges for any reason whatsoever, even if the coin has been physically examined.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
myurl
Hot Plate
The temperature range on this is 100 to 700 degrees.
Now, for the same price, perhaps a bit cheaper, a microwave or toaster oven could have been purchased. Toaster Ovens
Not sure what snacks his daughter is making in her college dorm but at 700 degrees.... that pizza is toast
...I'm getting a kick out of this!
-Dave
I, for one, learned a great deal just by seeing what could be pulled over on JML and Coinguy1 by use of "doctored" images. The image just ain't the coin - and it doesn't matter who did the image.
Buy from reputable people - WITH return privileges. And use that privilege if you're not absolutely satisfied.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
To chalk this one up to photographic manipulation and deception is horrible, but I am happy to see you back.
I didn't feel you were treated with due respect today, but it was a bizarre situation, and only an airtraffic controller had the "eye" this time.
Good or bad, this is a story to remember to retell.
I don't know. And, does it really matter?
From what I read, Toadstool was practicing the art of deceipt just like our other forum participant.
I've got no problem with anyone that comes here and tries to contribute, but doing so without lying to us right out of the shute would make the experience a lot more pleasurable.
Sorry, that's just my opinion.
If you don't mind people lying to you, then that's fine as well. We'll all entitled to our opinions.
GSAGUY
We have had people e-mail anyone that bids on his auctions to get him there.
We've insulted him and his family.
Just for good measure we attacked a few other board members....
We got him to cancel his Auctions.
I suggest at this point we have him monitored very carefully..what he buys...what he sells etc.
Maybe we could even set up monitoring at his house and force him to undergo some type of "counseling" on a weekly basis.
Yea.dont let it stop here..lets get him and get him good..
Let's sue him and make him sell his house lol...We can all split the profit....He can live in a shelter for all we care lol!
Maybe if we get his address we can call all his neighbors and tell them what a scumbag he is..Yeh..that's it.
We are the force...we decide who's good and who's bad and most importantly who is who...
Now lets get out there and get us another one.....
Bring him on down, in his strap-around lab coat, de-brief him, and force him underground to ferret out other coin doctors.
It's funny how I started to put these pics together back on page 5. Sometimes looking at the negatives can show a little more detail.
And dip every coin that you MIGHT of doctored,,,,,,now hurry, dip dip dip away!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Chris
Attack Attack Attack Attack That's my new motto!
Of course we mught have a little collateral damage here and there but what the hey...If we have to destroy a few good ones to get one bad one then its worth it!
Lets start with the Southerbelle lady.She had a mouth on her. I'll go and see what I can dig up on her...Bet she's a no good trailer trash welfare case.
I'll report back..Get the stones ready boyz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>Maybe we could even set up monitoring at his house.............. >>
His address is right on his listings and in an earlier post, he invited "us" over to see if he actually has the laboratory "we" say he does. I personally don't care if he tones coins for fun or as a hobby but when you start selling them as the real deal to unsuspecting buyers for much more then an untoned coin goes for them I have a problem with that.
It's not a witch hunt. The guy is flat out busted. And if eBay won't stop scammers, somebody needs too. How many of his buyers are going to quit collecting when they find out what they really bought? How many of them spent what they thought was good money and are only going to find out they have an average coin with AT on it?
I'd love to find out everything is on the up-and-up with his sale. Heck. I'D buy some. But so far I don't see anything but a scam and he's not convincing me differently.
As far as the level of anger here, just how should we treat those that are abusing the hobby?
Yes, I am very angry, and when I can vent my anger at one of the perpetrators of AT garbage they will feel the heat.
As for the passion, there's no denying that there was plenty of it. I am loath to paint the typical forum membership as hateful, enraged, irresponsible people who are swayed by a mob mentality. The lot of us are simply sick and tired of crooks trying to take advantage of unsuspecting collectors. That the lot of us responded vociferously and forcefully to the alleged swindler is a good thing; we should not simply lay there and just take it anymore. The "professionals" of this industry -- the dealers and the grading services -- have not done enough.
WE WANT TO TAKE BACK OUR HOBBY.
IrishMike PM'ed me to ask why the heck I've been defending him. I wasn't so much defending him as I was trying to defend a process. I am beyond that now. This is not a court of law, and this doesn't require a burden of proof of beyond a reasonable doubt. This is a court of a different sort, of ASwimmer's peers if you will, and we use a preponderance of the evidence and common sense as our protocol. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then ...
Where we go on from here I do not know. I surmise that there aren't many of us who can afford to be tied down in litigation. But, no litigation is no-cost to the plaintiff, even if the lawyer is a sister or a cousin. Do you honestly think that the sister or cousin can simply afford to spend much of his or her time doing his dirty work? For free?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Where do we go from here? I think just continuing to keep an ever watchful eye for the numismatic con artists that infest our hobby.
I would strongly advise people not to engage in auction interference no matter how sure you are of a counterfeit/altered/AT coin. The reason I say this is that I am sure with the amount of people here, most of us will ultimately know a bidder in one of these auctions and let the bidder know what is going on. As I said earlier, I personally rely on eBay for a source of my income and can not put my account in jeopardy by directly contacting any of the bidders. Auction interference is grounds for suspension on eBay.
We all should be thankful for the modern age of communication, i.e. the internet. Imagine if this were 20 years ago, the AT business never would have seen the light of day.
Alan
That is flat out a false statement and I am getting sick of this repeated BS.
alan
<< <i>It just sad that my fellow collectors are so into the thrill of the hunt and kill. >>
It's sad that you are just into it for the money and could care less on what happens to the hobby.
Good post.
Toast,
Where do 'we' go from here? Perhaps it's better to ask where does 'he' go from here? It's like I said, if he were AT'ing his own coins and selling them as such on ebay, most forum members wouldn't care. A few of them would even commend him for being honest about it, even if they didn't like the fact that he was AT'ing coins.
Instead we get this:
1) In correspondence to forum members who have asked him about his AT'ing of coins, he says, "oh no, these are original in color...right out of grandpa's collection.
2) Then he comes on the forum and says he has no idea what we're talking about. ME, I'm not a coin doctor. I'm just a 'little guy'.
3) A member 'outs' him with a pic of a white coin that he buys on ebay, and then shows up two weeks later artifically toned.....out of grandpa's hoard no less.
4) Then a member shows how he's actually altering the scans to try to cover his actions!!!!
5) Then he's back on here, "who me, I didn't go into my ebay file and change the pic, must have been someone else".
I mean, come on. How much slack do you cut this guy?
If you've ever read any of my posts, then you know that I don't often get embroiled in battles on the board. I try to either be informative, or witty, and I usually fail at the latter.
But this one was just too much.
As much as I love toned coins and all they represent, I despise what I believe to be outright FRAUD, especially when toned coins are involved.
GSAGUY
Russ website link
Yea Russ ....I'd let you run my campaighn lol.BWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Lets burn-em first then make sure were 100% correct
I'm sure we will get it right 100% of the time........So like I said before...
Who's next.....I'm ready. ....I'm in.........
Lets get the pile of rocks ready cause SOMEONE out there is next.
Even if you just have a funny feeling about someone just let me know.........I'll burn the bast_rd!
We should set this up the the military so we have Generals, Captains etc.....
We have enough people to getem where ever they are.......
You an idiot.
-Dave
I'm just up to speed with everyone else now~!
Dave.are you hiding something? Hmmmmm
It's More Important To Be Nice!
<< <i>Like I said I'm a changed man. >>
Seems the same to me.
I am greatful that the forum members have been able to expose people for who they are. I am glad they can expose a fraud when they see one. In my opinion, they do a great service for many of us newbies here in pointing out the frauds on ebay.
On the other hand, to try to make a point on a forum member who has done nothing to harm you is completely out of line. Russ will always be a friend to many of us on the forum and unfortunately, you just burned your bridges.
You can expose everyone in the forum if you please. In fact, feel free to PM me and I will give you my website link and you can dig up as much stuff as you please...unfortunately, you will still be an idiot in my book.
-Dave
Dont shy away folks as many on these forumns have commented on how Beautiful a obviously enhanced coin is and said nothing.
If Fraud is spoken, address All of the problems and the Artists.
Ken
<< <i>Everyone is on this AT kick which does cost collectors money but No One says a damn thing about the obvious blatant Picture Enhancement >>
Geez. That would take a lifetime to check every coin on eBay. You get started and I'll be right there.
You're right that it is a problem. I was a victim of it myself but it would be hard to detect before hand. You need to have the coin in hand and then compare it to the scan. The enhancing done on the Morgan in question on this thread was first rate and unless we hadn't seen the previous scan, nobody would have known.
Do you have any suggestions on how to check otherwise?
<< <i>Fraud... Do forum members really see it when it jumps up and smacks them between the eyes ? Everyone is on this AT kick which does cost collectors money but No One says a damn thing about the obvious blatant Picture Enhancement that is also done and costs Collectors dearly also. IMO Picture Enhancement is just as big of a problem as AT. Sure it does not destroy the coin but in the long run it will certainly destroy a persons pocket book and his out look on the hobby as a whole.
Dont shy away folks as many on these forumns have commented on how Beautiful a obviously enhanced coin is and said nothing.
If Fraud is spoken, address All of the problems and the Artists.
Ken >>
Ken, you couldn't possibly be talking about bondman could you?
He is one of the worst photo doctors on ebay.
There.
Probably I really blew it a couple of weeks ago when I brought up a certain coin that I had owned and then it was put up on Ebay. At the time I figured if the coin was just brought to the attention of the people here the point would be made. Most only could Ohh and Ahh about the coin and really missed the point of why it was shown on this forumn. Next time, if there is one, I will not be a meek little person and beat around the bush, I will come out and say something. Also at the time the Auction was current and it was my feeling that saying something would be interferring with the sellers auction as it was linked to this forum.
Maybe what is needed is a daily "Hey Take a Look at This" thread that is void of comments but just points out the abuses of our Hobby.
Ken
I do not believe the person you mentioned frequents my little corner of the Hobby. Others do though and it just plain makes the head shake in amazement.
Ken
So I did.....Of course his reply was no.
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
I've been having intermittent server problems and wasn't able to post these additional close-ups yesterday morning. At the risk of beating a dead dog I'll add them to the mix of images. What strikes me most about them is the similarities in the details, like the dings and pimples on the lettering and devices, and even small cuds on the rim. These could be the result of coins struck at close intervals at the mint, but the sum of all similarities gets a little overwhelming. Either way, it's been a learning experience for me about some of the finer points of the Morgan design.
If anyone has a lingering doubt about whether evidence presently exists sufficient to establish probable cause of fraud then I urge you to go back and read Marcalan 84's post. More to the point, however, and this is what has brought me back here, is Marcalan's closing comment that, "He [Swimmer] is going to deny it, change his user name, and continue to shake and bake."
Unfortunately that statement will prove to be true IF no one initiates legal action. We have a system of justice based upon laws in this country which only work when they are acted upon by the authorities. I urge anyone on this board who lives in the San Francisco area to contact the U.S. Attorney General's office and provide them a copy of this thread. A search warrant should issue ASAP before Swimmer destroys more evidence. (He has already cancelled multiple of his various auctions for the "toned" coins including the subject coin that exposed him.)
On the other hand this is fully fair to Mr. Swimmer as well because he will be entitled to all of the safeguards of our legal system and have the opportunity to have a grand jury of his peers review same to make sure there is in fact a basis for returning a true bill.
(Oh, and I'm a die hard democrat lest anyone think I'm just taking political potshots!
I have read the entire thread (WOW) and the thought that sticks in my mind is to be very careful of absolutes!!!
We have had members insist that these were different coins because of perceived differences or worse because of expertise.
It is kind of funny to say that the expert can tell you if the coins are the same if he (she) held them in their hand but looking at scans takes a different eye and expertise as I think this thread points out.
This is not to disparage the experts just a note to say that we all have things we need to learn.
Joe.
<< <i>I did not alter the photo nor have I ever colored a coin. >>
<< <i>I did not alter nor doctor anything. PERIOD. >>
SO what you're saying is someone else did? Because those scans are of the exact same coin and you didn't buy it toned.
<< <i>I never said someone else altered the picture. I can only say that I did not. >>
That scan was altered. Period. And Ebay didn't do it. That leaves only someone with access to your password.
<< <i>I may be guilty of unknowingly selling AT coins >>
How could you not know?
<< <i>You are concerned about the coins, great so I am submitting them >>
Thank you.
<< <i>when these coins come back in a slab then you better say your all sorry. >>
I will but please take some nice, clear before and after pics. It will help the crow go down easier.