We've BEGGED, congoled, prodded, pleaded, done about everything possible to get the big boys to come clean on who's doing what to coins. For whatever reason, and it probably has to do with fear of legal action and money, they won't.
Perhaps when you can't fumigate the entire room, stepping on one bug at a time is the only option.
<< <i>We've BEGGED, congoled, prodded, pleaded, done about everything possible to get the big boys to come clean on who's doing what to coins. For whatever reason, and it probably has to do with fear of legal action and money, they won't. >>
The entity that Laura mentioned, and greater care from the grading services is good, but does only get one coin at a time. The real "good" for the hobby can only be done by those "in the know". Trusting their integrity, I haven't yet given up on their help.
Not to be floating my own boat or anything but this is the kinda of stuff I do for a living! I'm an Air Traffic Controller so I am very aware of my surroundings and notice the very subtle changes! Like I said I may be mistaken but I started this post with the gouge in the neck as my ammo but I started doubting myself after seeing some pics from this morning. I know I'm not going crazy! Am I!!!!!!!!
"The last thing we want to see is a smoking gun. A gun smokes after it's been fired…. If someone waits for a smoking gun, it's certain we will have waited too long."
Southern Belle, I don't think anyone here opted to beat up on awimmer because he is a "little person." This thread was created to discuss a specific coin that within a span of about two weeks was transformed from into a toned morgan whose new color was obviously intended to excuse the coin's otherwise unattractive marks. The doctorng was then complicated by a suspicious story.
If you want to invite board scrutiny to another instance of suspected misconduct, bring it on. No one has invited any specific scrutiny, as far as I know, so there isn't anything before us on which to opine. It has nothing to do with a collector being big or small. One case has been made, the one against aswimmer, and forum members shave shared their opinions. It would be irresponsible to make general opinions about the "big" collectors in the absence of specifics.
As for aswimmer's auction ending early, anyone know why? I'm willing to give credit where credit is due, did he pull the plug or did retracting bidders do it for him?
Is it naive to hold out hope that history won't repeat itself?
When the topic of Coin Doctors can be brought up and then no clue given to the suspects that is just plain LAME in my book. Hell who wants to get the bottom of thier shoe dirty stepping on a Big Bug when little ones can be had easily ?
Hell this subject should just be dropped period untill someone with a "Set" comes forward. 30 Dealers in Las Vegas...who were they ?
If there had been the least bit of doubt in anyone's mind about what aswimmer did to his coin, that is gone after he changed the reverse photo to create doubt in response to our opinions. UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree completely, who was there? And while we should be careful to avoid guilt by association, I do think it would be informative to know who was invited to the private party.
It about drove me crazy to read about the 30 top dealers at that Trade & Grade and then read about Salzberg of NGC being so disgusted with the coins he saw that had been monkeyed with. And the insinuation was that the coins had been monkeyed with shortly before being brought there.
I'm sure Laura really went out on a limb to say what she said and I'm sure she took some serious heat, but at least we know that ONE major dealer is making the effort.
The obverse photo has had the tick on the bridge of the nose removed, the scratch on the cheek shortened, and the "mark" on the lower front of the neck removed (which is actually part of the Morgan design... oops ).
The reverse has had a number of field scuffs touched up, as well as a gouge on the eagle feathers at the shoulder-line.
Those are facts.
I'll also say that in my opinion the toned/untoned photos are of the same coin, after resizing/rotating them and comparing them. Obviously that could be readily refuted if the owner chose to, by simply producing the two coins.
...normally mild-mannered internet coin dealer jumps from his/more likely her safe. It's Testecles, the great god of both sensitivity and integrity to the rescue. Who is this masked numismatist who single handedly can disembowel the coin doctors? I know, it's a dirty business, but someone has to do it.
<< <i>Perhaps when you can't fumigate the entire room, stepping on one bug at a time is the only option. = GSAGUY >>
Bwhahahahah. This guy is a bug!
I hope you're not trying to defend him Belle. Perhaps you need to look at the things he's bought on ebay. Ovens and chemicals! Dremel Tools and lots of them ! The same coin he bought turns colors and he sells it in two weeks!!!
I voted for Sen. John McCain in the presidential primary because I believe he is a real hero and a real man. Unlike some politicians, as my dear Uncle Earl says (please excuse the expression) "who are just chicken hawk wimps" - Uncle Earl likes to use colorful language sometimes, but name calling and bullying should not be condoned.
I voted for Ralph Nader in the election because although Mr. Nader is not a nice person personally, and is known to be very rude sometimes, in general he does tell the truth - something my poor little lady's mind doesn't seem to see much of in politics or in the world of High Numismatics.
I don't believe either Mr. Nader or Sen. McCain have ever been accused of coin doctoring or selling AT'd coins, but I have no proof.
Concerning this thread, as my mother used to say, "a Man don't run with the mob, a Man stops the mob", or something like that. Perhaps I should be burned as a witch for not remembering the exact phrase?
My apologies if I disappointed you, Dear Mr. CThomas.
There is "No Guilt Implied" by just stating who was in Las Vegas. Period end of subject. Also I am sure that Laura was not the only dealer there that could comment. She did enough just to come forward with the subject....or did she ?
Again I'll say I do not condone what this thread is about but it just plain seems senseless to go after a "Small Cheese" like this when the "Real Problem" people are protected.
"The last thing we want to see is a smoking gun. A gun smokes after it's been fired…. If someone waits for a smoking gun, it's certain we will have waited too long."
<< <i>I hope you're not trying to defend him Belle. >>
Dearest Mr. Lee,
I don't know the man. If he is doing bad things and it can be proven (not conjectured), then I have no respect for him. But I have only seen circumstantial evidence, and much too much name calling.
Do you not, perhaps, understand that swatting flies and chasing roaches while the gorillas run amock may not be the best way to deal with a problem? I think you do - but it is not for me to judge. Uncle Earl once said something about "roasting a flea won't fill your belly, but catch an elephant, now there's a meal!" Sorry about the folksy expressions, but Earl had some mighty interesting ones, he was a colorful old Southern gentleman, even though he had a fondness for the liquor.
Some non-circumstantial evidence from which to draw your own conclusions. Here are the relevant portions of the obverse auction photos from last night and today:
As I noted previously, Mr. Morgan might not approve of the bottom touch-up, since that "dent" in the neck is part of his design.
Great job, Supercoin, and all those who saw the deception from the beginning.
Probably explains why Julian L and Mark Feld thought they were different coins. You may recall that I did mention that Photoshop could be used to make two images of the same coin look different by alteration of the photo. In aswimmer's auction, only HE could have made these alterations in his auction as only HE has access to his images directly.
No, I don't think you are going to see two 1882S Morgans side by side on today's newspaper by that seller, unless he is a true wizard at photomanipulation.
Supercoin. Can you post the whole original scan of the toned Morgan? I saw it last night but didn't copy it untill afterwards. I'd like to take a closer look at it.
you know he offers a guarentee on some of his coins????? Wonder why they dont all have the same guarentee?
"Here is an MS-64 1902-o that is one of my favorites. The obverse is is bright white while the reverse is just a rainbow of many colors and shades of. It is beautiful and will certify by PCGS or NGC natural or 155% of your money back. " 155% money back guarentee
Family, kids, coins, sports (playing not watching), jet skiing, wakeboarding, Big Air....no one ever got hurt in the air....its the sudden stop that hurts. I hate Hurricane Sandy. I hate FEMA and i hate the blasted insurance companies.
What a great educational thread. I "won" an MS-64 gold coin on eBay awhile back, and it came through with a really nasty mark on Liberty's face that just didn't show at all in the image. I wrote it off to lighting at the time (I returned the coin), but now I know how it may have been done. This is just another penalty for ignorance, computer ignorance in this case. It is obvious that any image posted is to be regarded as only a very rudimentary tool for judging a prospective purchase. Knowing what this thread has taught me, I find it unbelievable that so many auctions with "all sales final" stipulations are actively pursued by buyers. You might as well be looking at a "generic" image of a totally different coin.
No need to hang anybody in this forum, just give em' enough rope................................
Heh! He might as well have come on here and confessed by retouching the pictures. I saved them last night and had no doubt that they were from the same coin. Here is one of the reverse markers that was missed in the retouch.
Based upon some of the comments I have read and detective work I have seen, I have been pretty much swayed to thinking the coins are the same.
I would like to add, that I love a good debate, with people expressing their views in a polite and respectful fashion, while focusing on information and facts (not name calling and insults). For the most part, this has been an excellent debate - congratulations to the participants.
Could we possibly have had a more educational thread, given all the toning talk of late?
We learned of our many, many strengths, and that we can make some mistakes. We learned how we can effectively use our strengths, even within the law, if desired, and if desired, use them positively in the future, but with perhaps a bit more finesse.
We see that it takes a ton of effort to "make" one ATer.
I think we also see the importance of having an alternative to finding only ways to I.D. and pull one AT'd coin at a time.
I think we see the huge importance of having (a) stong, experienced, knowledgable, well-respected member(s) of the numismatic profession (the good guys) willing and able to lead this fight against the manufacturers of AT coins, for the general sake of the hobby.
Help us help the hobby now, please. Create your own non-profit org. Use the boards under an unknown name, etc., etc. The hobby is not so weak. There has to be a way to do the right thing, without a fear of litigation. You will get positive support.
Good thing PETA isn't monitoring this post, or we would be charged with beating a dead horse! It's pretty obvious what the guy is doing, but eBay states clearly that it's marketplace is ruled by "caveat emptor" and anybody who is really serious in purchasing quality coins will undertake due dilligence. If a novice approaches the board and asks for advice, by all means, opinions should be offered; but I think that any crusade to rid eBay (or the coin market for that matter) of questionable sellers is fruitless. As far as AT is concerned, I would suggest "T'was ever thus"...and many of the coins already snugly in plastic have been altered to some degree. I surely don't condone his practices, or consider them ethical, but it doesn't seem that he's breaking any laws...he's just been busted by people who know what they're doing, and a word to the wise is usually sufficient!
Don't you know that it's worth every treasure on Earth to be young at heart? And as rich as you are, it's much better by far, to be young at heart!
Until now, the word to the wise has always been: Lawsuit. Manipulating market makers through a perceived fear of litigation is not right and cannot be understated.
I didn't see the pic prior to today, and it's hard to tell between a "blur filter" and JPG compression sometimes. I've also got several examples of coins with seemingly identical bag marks... but Supercoin's "before and after" image makes it fairly obvious Doesn't change the fact that interfering with his auction can get you from 100% positive feedback to NARU in 6 seconds flat. eBay has it's own rules too, ya know. Still not sure if anything was actually misrepresented. Though doubt he'll be using the "grandpa hoard" story in future auctions
I'm glad that this thread has reached its conclusion! I never expected it to be such a heated topic! Like I've said to many members via PM's I am a new collector. I was fasinated with Toned coins and thats what got me into collecting. I came here as a guy looking for advice because I was clueless! I want to thank everyone who jumped in to provide that info! It was just odd that it was that easy for me to unveil this guy's crap!!! I'm glad that good guys won!!!!
So what's gonna be the next debate!!!
I'm Out
Chris
"The last thing we want to see is a smoking gun. A gun smokes after it's been fired…. If someone waits for a smoking gun, it's certain we will have waited too long."
Supercoin is a fine numismatist as well, but, IMHO, it is refreshing to see that the seasoned "amateurs" can spot altered coins, AT'ed coins right up there with the "super-experts". I would love to see Supercoin as one of the (3) expert Ike guys giving out the "PCGS MESSAGE BOARD SEAL OF APPROVAL" to Ike dollars. IMHO, you could assemble the greatest "dealers" on the bourse floor today and they could not compare to the grading/AT team I could assemble right from this coin forum to deal with grading/slabbing Ike dollars, as well as many other post-1931 coins!
Bravo - Supercoin. Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Thanks to all who did the work on the images, saved me a lot of work that I couldn't get to last night. The two coins are the same coin, to this there can be no doubt.
As someone else mentioned, this wasn't a witch hunt, it was a BUST.
Now add the fact that aswimmer has bought lab chemicals and heating equipment, bought a white coin and sold it as a toned coin, has manipulated scans, changed auction pictures and refused to answer direct questions here. It all adds up to a NUMISMATIC CON MAN
i pulled the auctions based on threats I read about attacks on my auctions. People were conspiring to win items from me and possibly reverse the paypal or Credit card charges causing me problems. This is why O pulled and/or canceled bids anr barred some others from bidding.
Comments
<< <i>Six bidders withdrew their bids and the auction was closed without a sale. >>
The auction was cancelled by the seller.
<< <i>Explanation:The seller ended the listing early and cancelled all bids. Bid:Feb-14-03 10:58:39 PST
CancelledFeb-16-03 11:12:30 PST [/q[
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We've BEGGED, congoled, prodded, pleaded, done about everything possible to get the big boys to come clean on who's doing what to coins. For whatever reason, and it probably has to do with fear of legal action and money, they won't.
Perhaps when you can't fumigate the entire room, stepping on one bug at a time is the only option.
GSAGUY
<< <i>We've BEGGED, congoled, prodded, pleaded, done about everything possible to get the big boys to come clean on who's doing what to coins. For whatever reason, and it probably has to do with fear of legal action and money, they won't. >>
The entity that Laura mentioned, and greater care from the grading services is good, but does only get one coin at a time.
The real "good" for the hobby can only be done by those "in the know". Trusting their integrity, I haven't yet given up on their help.
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
If you want to invite board scrutiny to another instance of suspected misconduct, bring it on. No one has invited any specific scrutiny, as far as I know, so there isn't anything before us on which to opine. It has nothing to do with a collector being big or small. One case has been made, the one against aswimmer, and forum members shave shared their opinions. It would be irresponsible to make general opinions about the "big" collectors in the absence of specifics.
As for aswimmer's auction ending early, anyone know why? I'm willing to give credit where credit is due, did he pull the plug or did retracting bidders do it for him?
Is it naive to hold out hope that history won't repeat itself?
Hell this subject should just be dropped period untill someone with a "Set" comes forward. 30 Dealers in Las Vegas...who were they ?
Ken
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Ken
<< <i>untill someone with a "Set" comes forward. >>
Rats! That leaves me out!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I agree completely, who was there? And while we should be careful to avoid guilt by association, I do think it would be informative to know who was invited to the private party.
It about drove me crazy to read about the 30 top dealers at that Trade & Grade and then read about Salzberg of NGC being so disgusted with the coins he saw that had been monkeyed with. And the insinuation was that the coins had been monkeyed with shortly before being brought there.
I'm sure Laura really went out on a limb to say what she said and I'm sure she took some serious heat, but at least we know that ONE major dealer is making the effort.
More can be done.
GSAGUY
Ken
The reverse has had a number of field scuffs touched up, as well as a gouge on the eagle feathers at the shoulder-line.
Those are facts.
I'll also say that in my opinion the toned/untoned photos are of the same coin, after resizing/rotating them and comparing them. Obviously that could be readily refuted if the owner chose to, by simply producing the two coins.
It's Testecles, the great god of both sensitivity and integrity to the rescue.
Who is this masked numismatist who single handedly can disembowel the coin doctors?
I know, it's a dirty business, but someone has to do it.
<< <i>Perhaps when you can't fumigate the entire room, stepping on one bug at a time is the only option. = GSAGUY >>
Bwhahahahah. This guy is a bug!
I hope you're not trying to defend him Belle. Perhaps you need to look at the things he's bought on ebay. Ovens and chemicals! Dremel Tools and lots of them ! The same coin he bought turns colors and he sells it in two weeks!!!
This isn't a Witch Hunt.......It's a BUST!!!!
<< <i>It's Testecles, >>
hmmmmm.... this thread is taking another interesting twist!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Dear Mr. CThomas,
I voted for Sen. John McCain in the presidential primary because I believe he is a real hero and a real man. Unlike some politicians, as my dear Uncle Earl says (please excuse the expression) "who are just chicken hawk wimps" - Uncle Earl likes to use colorful language sometimes, but name calling and bullying should not be condoned.
I voted for Ralph Nader in the election because although Mr. Nader is not a nice person personally, and is known to be very rude sometimes, in general he does tell the truth - something my poor little lady's mind doesn't seem to see much of in politics or in the world of High Numismatics.
I don't believe either Mr. Nader or Sen. McCain have ever been accused of coin doctoring or selling AT'd coins, but I have no proof.
Concerning this thread, as my mother used to say, "a Man don't run with the mob, a Man stops the mob", or something like that. Perhaps I should be burned as a witch for not remembering the exact phrase?
My apologies if I disappointed you, Dear Mr. CThomas.
Again I'll say I do not condone what this thread is about but it just plain seems senseless to go after a "Small Cheese" like this when the "Real Problem" people are protected.
Ken
<< <i>I hope you're not trying to defend him Belle. >>
Dearest Mr. Lee,
I don't know the man. If he is doing bad things and it can be proven (not conjectured), then I have no respect for him. But I have only seen circumstantial evidence, and much too much name calling.
Do you not, perhaps, understand that swatting flies and chasing roaches while the gorillas run amock may not be the best way to deal with a problem? I think you do - but it is not for me to judge. Uncle Earl once said something about "roasting a flea won't fill your belly, but catch an elephant, now there's a meal!" Sorry about the folksy expressions, but Earl had some mighty interesting ones, he was a colorful old Southern gentleman, even though he had a fondness for the liquor.
As I noted previously, Mr. Morgan might not approve of the bottom touch-up, since that "dent" in the neck is part of his design.
Probably explains why Julian L and Mark Feld thought they were different coins. You may recall that I did mention that Photoshop could be used to make two images of the same coin look different by alteration of the photo. In aswimmer's auction, only HE could have made these alterations in his auction as only HE has access to his images directly.
No, I don't think you are going to see two 1882S Morgans side by side on today's newspaper by that seller, unless he is a true wizard at photomanipulation.
Ira (no axe to grind here)
Thanks, Lee
this guy is soo busted!
so far, It's pretty obvious that:
he buys white coins on ebay
he buys laboratory heating equipment on ebay
he buys sulfer containing chemicals on ebay
he offers blatantly AT coins on ebay, often the same date/mintmark/bagmark/grade as those bought white
he claims they're from grampa's 30 year collection
he doctors the auction photos
he appears on here as at least 2 if not 3 personas: aswimmer, toadstool, and possibly southernbelle
wow that's quite a list, and just off the top of my head, have i missed anything!
this is truly classic!
LOL!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The hole keeps getting deeper.
GSAGUY
"Here is an MS-64 1902-o that is one of my favorites. The obverse is is bright white while the reverse is just a rainbow of many colors and shades of. It is beautiful and will certify by PCGS or NGC natural or 155% of your money back. " 155% money back guarentee
No need to hang anybody in this forum, just give em' enough rope................................
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
GSAGUY
Yes, I know, O.J. is actively looking for Nicole's murderer.
I would like to add, that I love a good debate, with people expressing their views in a polite and respectful fashion, while focusing on information and facts (not name calling and insults). For the most part, this has been an excellent debate - congratulations to the participants.
We learned of our many, many strengths, and that we can make some mistakes.
We learned how we can effectively use our strengths, even within the law, if desired, and if desired, use them positively in the future, but with perhaps a bit more finesse.
We see that it takes a ton of effort to "make" one ATer.
I think we also see the importance of having an alternative to finding only ways to I.D. and pull one AT'd coin at a time.
I think we see the huge importance of having (a) stong, experienced, knowledgable, well-respected member(s) of the numismatic profession (the good guys) willing and able to lead this fight against the manufacturers of AT coins, for the general sake of the hobby.
Help us help the hobby now, please. Create your own non-profit org. Use the boards under an unknown name, etc., etc.
The hobby is not so weak. There has to be a way to do the right thing, without a fear of litigation. You will get positive support.
As for name calling, sometimes you've just got to accept that the word liar applies.
GSAGUY
every treasure on Earth
to be young at heart?
And as rich as you are,
it's much better by far,
to be young at heart!
Manipulating market makers through a perceived fear of litigation is not right and cannot be understated.
So what's gonna be the next debate!!!
I'm Out
Chris
<< <i>So what's gonna be the next debate!!! >>
Chris, for what it's worth, it's usually "who's" gonna be the next debate, here.
Bravo - Supercoin.
Steve: I must admit, I am lost on this one too
Wondercoin
<< <i>It's Testecles, >>
I'm not lost Daddy-o, it sure put ideas in my head....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Thanks to all who did the work on the images, saved me a lot of work that I couldn't get to last night. The two coins are the same coin, to this there can be no doubt.
As someone else mentioned, this wasn't a witch hunt, it was a BUST.
Now add the fact that aswimmer has bought lab chemicals and heating equipment, bought a white coin and sold it as a toned coin, has manipulated scans, changed auction pictures and refused to answer direct questions here. It all adds up to a NUMISMATIC CON MAN
i pulled the auctions based on threats I read about attacks on my auctions. People were conspiring to win items from me and possibly reverse the paypal or Credit card charges causing me problems. This is why O pulled and/or canceled bids anr barred some others from bidding.
Alan