Cointoast, An apology would require a modicum of decency, class, and respect. I'm not expecting to see one anytime soon.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>Wow....Sounds like Lucy really HATES this guy........... >>
Huh? I don't hate anybody..... Even DCAMFrankie........ I am just on the side of the fence that believes these coins in question are one and the same.... and I fully leave open the door that I may be 100% wrong... as far as ebay and contacting people about awsimmers auctions, I am not part of that... I simply think the coins are the same... As far as Jullian, I have absolutely no reason on earth to hate or even dislike him..... He's not the first person to disagree with me, nor will he be the last... And, I can see his thinking about a proffessional opinion.... I just think that a non-proffessional also can have a higly regarded opinion as well....
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
What is wrong with you people? This has become a mob witch hunt - lets just burn him or hang him and get it over with.
That coin is more genuine than most of the trade dollars coming out of Singapore which is doing alot more damage to coin collecting than what appears to be an artificial toned Morgan selling for $40. Even if it is AT doesn't mean Aswimmer did it. It is very possible his grandfather bought color when MANY dealers were dipping coins to blast white or whizzing coins.
Some of you talk as if you want to prosecute this guy and send him to jail - for what I ask?
I feel because of the PL surfaces, light source, camera angle, photoshop editing, etc. NO definitive answer will be 100% that these ARE or ARE NOT the same coin.
Even if these are the same coin, and some of your accusations are correct - no one is forcing bidders to bid and buyers to buy - what happened to free market place in America? Also if these are the same coin - after eBay fees, PayPal fees, shipping, etc. less than $10 profit was made
I think the Hunt brothers did a major disservice to the coin industry in the early 80's when they played with the price of silver - turned collecting into a bad investment for many people - what happened to them? (I don't know)
Remember OJ - if both the glove AND shoe don't fit, let him go
You know me. I am a professional, full time dealer. It appears to me that the two photos are of the same coin. There are too many similarities between the two. Yes there are also dissimilarites, but remember, there were taken by two different photographers with different lighting and different equipment, as well as two different lighting angles.
I can take a photo of the same coin and in one photo the surface marks appear like major gouges and the other photo, taken from a different angle, may show them quite differently. Remember, this is with the SAME equipment and same light source, color balance, etc. Only difference would be the angle of the coin with respect to the lighting.
Now if you take many coin photographs, you'll know what I'm saying is correct. Stujoe has pointed our with his painstaking scrutiny that the coins appear to be the same. That's my preliminary opinion as well.
No, I don't think the seller should be defiled. It was wrong of the original poster to write his bidders...dead wrong! A few days ago a seller was using my exact photo in his auction of a 1955/55 DD Lincoln Cent. I wrote to seller but got no reply. I contacted Safe Harbor and they endedf the auction within a day!I never would contact his bidders!
Here's a story, however, that ALL should take into account.
A few years ago I was selling a raw, non-slabbed 1909 S VDB 1c on eBay that I described as Good in condition. One of the RCC forum members asked if people thought it was genuine. Many naysayers and skeptics jumped on the bandwagon and soon people were contacting my bidders. A well-known and well-respected Indian Head cent specialist voiced his opinion on RCC that it was bad. People were cancelling their bids left and right. I send the coin off to be certified by a fast route and it came back as genuine and a VG-8. I knew it was genuine all along and I carefully outlined the diagnostics in my eBay description. Nevertheless, I lost about $100 plus the grading fees. My reputation could have been SULLIED as a result of this incident. Yes, the IHC dealer later apologized and we have done much business since, both ways.
Nevertheless, there's a real danger in publicly disparaging a seller's item unless you know for sure that it is "BAD."
I think the two 1882-S Morgans SEEM to be the same coin. Perhaps one was improved in Photoshop, or maybe not. A private e-mail to seller might have been in order IF the original poster thought the coin was artificially toned, but his virtiolic e-mails and his subsequent posts on this forum to gain allies was ill-advised in my opinion.
We cannot be the guardians of all auctiions on eBay or elsewhere. It would be a frustrating and fruitless battle.
Dave- the standard with regard to "full disclosure" is a bit broader. It expands to "know or should have known." You ask fair questions and heck if the wrongdoers didn't have defenses, technical or not, a lot of my brothers and sisters in the bar would be out of work. Quite frankly this whole coin doctoring issue regarding toning has big implications and it is not surprising that many with vested interest in not rocking the boat would just as soon see it swept under the rug. There are big bucks to be made when you can turn a Morgan valued at $20 into a "monster" toned coin that sells for over a grand to unsuspecting consumers. Get one of those into a slabbed holder and the cash register really starts to ring. To Swimmers credit he apparently sells his as raw coins and the prices he gets seem to reflect that fact.
May the Lord have mercy for posting on this matter...
I think the two coins are not the same for 4 reasons:
1. In this country, we don't convict a person without proof. All other evidence, like the other questionable stuff that can be used to doctor coins, is moot to the assertion that the two coins are the same. (If the assertion is that ASwimmer A/T's his coins, then that other evidence is germane.) Moreover, the proof has to be affirmative; i.e., you cannot say that the coins are identical simply because he hasn't been able to prove that they are different.
2. The white coin that AS bought has far more marks than the toned one that he's trying to sell.
3. Some of the marks that Shylock, et al, use to assert that they are the same are clearly different to me. In particular, there is a mark on the bridge of the nose in both coins. The marks are different because they go in different directions.
(I think the evidence of similar marks is controvertible because one coin appears to have so many more marks than the other, and most bagmarks look the same.)
4. A couple of folks have said that the reverses are different. I haven't checked, and I'm just taking their word that these are two different VAM varieties.
Finally, let me make it perfectly clear that I am only addressing the assertion that the two coins are the same. To me, they are very different. I make no claim regarding ASWimmer's overall professional, ethical, or moral conduct. However, I would be highly reluctant to buy any coins from him. Call it a gut call.
I think the fact that we can't even agree on whether or not we're looking at pictures of the same, or sperate coins should show the absolute ludicracy of hanging this guy because "100% of his inventory is AT." If viewing photos over the Internet makes it so difficyult to determine if 2 photos are of 1 coin or 2, how can it be so hard to understand that perhaps not all of his coins are AT, or he isn't aware one way or the other.
I say hang him, after shooting him, then burn him at a stake. Give me 30 minutes notice and I'll have us a nice crowd to watch!
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>Stujoe has pointed our with his painstaking scrutiny that the coins appear to be the same. That's my preliminary opinion as well. No, I don't think the seller should be defiled. It was wrong of the original poster to write his bidders...dead wrong! >>
I agree completely. I don't think anyone should be interfering in this guy's auctions or with his bidders and I am certainly not advocating that and would never do it myself. I have also called the guy no names. I have just presented my opinion on the two coins from a purely photographic standpoint. As I have said, I could be wrong. I also know it is not 100% conclusive and have not said it is.
I know he is reading here and has been open to discussion on this forum. It is still my opinion tha the coins are the same but I would be more than happy to have him come back and convince me otherwise. A genuine picture of both coins on the newspaper would do it. If someone who really knows VAMS can line the pictures up and say conclusively which VAMS they are, that would be good too. I don't know VAMS.
Time sure flies when you don't know what you are doing...
<< <i>When another professional, such as Mark Feld, as well as my self, say that they are different coins, that is our professional opinions and should be valuable! >>
With all due respect Julian, that's known as an "Argument from Authority", and is a logical fallacy. You can't just say they're different have have it be accepted. However, when you tell why you think they are different, that opinion will carry more weight because of your expert status.
I am decidedly not an expert, and to my layperson eyes, they appear to be the same coin. The timing of the two auctions and the purchase of the various chemicals and implements also go against his case. I don't think it's reached "beyond a reasonable doubt" levels, but the preponderance of evidence so far goes against Mr Swimmer.
I recommend looking immediatly northwest of the "O" in "ONE" of "ONE DOLLAR". Please examine the pattern of three dings , their size and spread.
God help me for I am about to post again on this issue...
It is not difficult to find very similar-looking marks on two coins that typically come with bagmarks. Why not look at all the differences? Some would say that pictures can lie; those same lying pictures can make similar-looking marks look rather identical too.
How is it that the preponderance of the evidence supports the assertion that the two coins are the same? We have three pieces of evidence: that the two coins have similar-looking marks; that the coins have different marks in different places; and, that images lie.
That, folks, is 1-1-1. (One for "same", one for "different", and one that is neutral.) In our society, tie goes to the defendant.
The timing of the two auctions and the purchase of the various chemicals and implements also go against his case.
How is this relevent? The assertion is NOT that he A/T's his coins. The assertion is that the two coins are the same.
Folks around here want to prove that he A/T's his coins because they feel that they found a smoking gun. That smoking gun -- whether the two coins are the same or just similar-looking -- is what's at stake. If no smoking gun, then what???
But, you can't say that the smoking gun is "true" just because you found circumstantial evidence that he A/T's his coins. They are separate issues. You can use the "similar" issue to prove the "A/T" issue, but not vice versa.
Interesting thread! Some experts say it's the same coin, some experts say it's different coins. If I were a new guy I would be so confused!! Hey the marks on these 3 coins are similiar; are they the same coin or 3 different coins? (answer: if I had touched up the pictures by painting over the black spot you experts would probably say they were 3 different coins. They are the same coin, untweaked and straight from the scanner, only the top of the slab in the first picture is propped on a pencil, and the second picture has the left side of the slab is propped on a pencil, and the third the right side is propped up on a pencil.) True, some of us can't judge a coin from a pict but some us most certianly can.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
and somebody correct me if I wrong, but is not Dog a very respected Morgan collector whose opinion, not that its correct, but is a legitimate opinion concerning Morgan Dollars? Or is he dismissed as a non-professional wanna be?
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Pardon the O/T comment, but I must thank whoever got this started (Dragon?) for making the message board portion of my weekend interesting. I also found this issue to be educational...
I have not posted to this thread, and don't have a dog in this fight, but I do have one stupid question. Why would anyone buy a coin with similar marks, same year and mintmark as one they were left by their grandfather, and then sell their grandfather's coin that they know to be original?
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
It seems to me that the coins look very very similar however, just remember, really weird things do occur in this world we live in. There are coins that look very similar.
Having said that, it is not even a challenge for me to add or remove marks on images. It is the simplest of things.
And furthermore, changing images that appear in even closed auctions is no challenge for even a beginner in the world of digital photography.
Furthermore, I would be careful about calling anyone a liar but if i were the fellow being called a liar in this thread, i would do everything in my power to re-obtain both coins, submit them to Mark Feld for his examination and let him have the final word.
Those are two cheap coins The current owners (?) of the coins would, i imagine, have no problem selling them back to the accused under the current circumstances. Or loaning them.
Finally, if i did lie about something, got caught red-handed....i would fess up, ask for forgiveness and fly right. Most people would forgive if a contrite heart were possessed.
I would like to thank all the members who are looking out for members like myself who are not experts on AT or toned coins. I think I have learned a great deal about AT coins and Morgans in gerneral.
" I hoard coins, that's what I do, it's my nature" ____________________________
Just so there is no misunderstanding, I BELIEVE the coins to be different, but, of course, am not sure, as I don't have them in front of me to examine. That is the only way to know for certain, in my opinion.
I certainly respect the opinion of anyone who disagrees, but feel the benefit of the doubt should go to the party who has not yet been convicted in a court of law.
Adrain, you said:
<< <i>but if i were the fellow being called a liar in this thread, i would do everything in my power to re-obtain both coins, submit them to Mark Feld for his examination and let him have the final word >>
You, sir, are a LIAR - now send all of your coins to me for my examination!
Edited to add - thank you for what I take to be a very nice compliment.
Mrs. coinguy1 and I are leaving for the gym - I doubt it will be nearly as entertaining as this place.
They are the same coin, no question. If you think you see differences, look above at the pix by dog97. The least bit of change in camera angle, lighting, etc., can bring out drastic differences in images of the same coin. Aswimmer is busted, and is now the honorary president of the AT club. Way to screw your fellow collectors aswimmer. Tripled your money on buying a crap coin and converting it into a crap coin with crap toning. You are a cheat and a fraud.
As Dog's pictures suggest, the best way, if not the only way to tell with accuracy whether 2 different pictures are of the same coin is to compare similarities, not differences. The chemicals used to tone the AT coin plus the lighting are able to mask many of the marks on the original coin. In contrast, I was easily able to identify about 15 different marks that precisely coincide on both coins.
Calculating the remote possibility of this occurring by chance would be difficult. But, I venture to say that I would be happy to bet anyone even money that if they compared every Morgan dollar in existence, they could not find 2 which had as many similarities as these 2 coins.
So, even without the other abundant circumstantial evidence presented, and notwithstanding the opinions of Mark and Julian, which I would readily accept if they were to view the coins in person, I am very strongly persuaded that these are one and the same coin.
Don't know if the two are the same -- don't care if the two are the same, but here's some more legal advice on the issue and a response to an earlier post.
<< <i>Hypothetical question for the lawyers on the forum: If it could be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the two images are in fact of the same coin, and was knowingly and intentionally fraudulently represented by the seller would that be "actionable"? (That is the word you use isn't it?) >>
Here's the text from Swimmer's auctions; Part I
<< <i>Here is an MS 1882-s that is sure to turn heads. In person this coins pops. The obverse in rich golds and pinks with spots ob bright blue is great by itself, but when the reverse has DMPL qualities then it is really a fantastic coin. The cartwheel on the reverse is so strong and the mirror like characteristics are amazing. Strong lustre and strike. Trust me this baby is a great catch. It does have that one dotted scratch on the obverse but one guy said it gives her character, I guess if you like Madam Frankenstein. She came from my Grandfather's collection of toned US Coins that I have been selling on and off over the last few months. I am about getting close to being done with the Morgans with about 85 pcs to go. >>
Fraud is actionable, fraud is a mind set, mens rea, it is not what is directly said, but how it is said based upon the intent of the person making the statement. Puffing is not fraud and for the most part allowable in sales of just about anything -- see your local car dealer.
Well, Mr Swimmer seems to be puffing in his description -- the only place he steps over the line is when he states the coin is from his grandfather's collection of toned coins. If you could prove that Mr. Swimmer was coloring coins and then selling them with a disguise of originality and authenticity, you could probably win a small claims suit from him in Lafayette California. Good luck doing that unless he was your next door neighbor. One of the problems with Mr Swimmer's auctions is that they are low dollar coins, so if you did sue it would be in small claims court and really who is going to put that much troouble into recouping their $50? Now if Mr. Swimmer was selling $10,000 toned coins, now we get to Superior Court in California and maybe, but I've forgotten but I think its $75,000 we could get into Federal Court and Mr. Swimmer might have to come to your neck of the woods.
Otherwise forget the lawsuit thing, well, there's one other option -- class action. But that would be impossible to certify the class.
So, basically, he's going to keep doing what he's doing, unless someone really makes it goal to investigate this further -- my suggestion --- buy a coin and send it off to PCGS. If it comes back AT, go sue him in small claims court in Lafayette California.
OR, try using the Federal authorities, perhaps this is mail fraud. Anytime you use the US Postal service to defruad someone, they like to know about it. Perhaps contacting the Attorney General's Office in California might get you some help, but doubtful, we're out of $$ in this state.
It's unfortunate, but legally, unless someone want's to step up to the plate with big $$, like Laura @ Legend, there's little that can be done legally about coin doctors and AT artist on EBay.
The coins are the same, which means that not only is aswimmer a coin doctor, he is also a scan doctor. He not only added the toning but he cleaned up some of the hits and marks from his scan to try to make the coin look like a higher grade than it really is. Dog is right on the mark.
It boils down to this: The best protection against AT is education. If you feel a coin is AT, don't buy it. Simple as that. If you still can't tell the difference , then buy certified only. Its not a 100% guarantee against AT, but at least you're 99% safe. End of story.
WOOO HOOOOO! I've been waiting on a response from FRATTLAW since I started this silly tread so early this morning!!!!
Thanks for the info!! I'm not about to sue anyone but I think that this thread has opened the eyes of many who were in doubt out there!
#$%@ where is the spellcheck button on this forum!!!
I am so stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm Out!!
Chris
P.S. This thread has also greatly improved my post count!
"The last thing we want to see is a smoking gun. A gun smokes after it's been fired…. If someone waits for a smoking gun, it's certain we will have waited too long."
Being far from an expert, I nevertheless find it incredulous that with all the dead similar diagnostics in the two images and with even a rudimentary knowledge of computer manipulation that so many people seem be convinced [or even doubt] these images are not of the same coin.
When one looks at the ordered armamentarium by the seller in question [and listed in this thread] it seems obvious that a lab setup is being made for the production of something other than methamphetamine.
I have spent the last 15 minutes examining the photos and while I see some marks that may be nearly identical, I am not able to see how the majority of marks on the original have been eliminated. Additionallly, there appears to be the mark on the nose on the toned coin that is not on the original. I guess that the mark could have been added, and that the serious abrasions could have been filled in, but I would have to see the toned coin to really tell. I would very much like to examine the toned coin. I have contacted the seller and see if he will end this sale and produce both coins. It seems like it should be worth $100. to clear his name. We'll see.
PNG member, same identity as Julian, a veteran numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
I have not posted to this thread, and don't have a dog in this fight, but I do have one stupid question. Why would anyone buy a coin with similar marks, same year and mintmark as one they were left by their grandfather, and then sell their grandfather's coin that they know to be original?
If this question is ever answered it might be the most interesting post of this thread.
I've spent a couple of hours reading this and comparing the coins and it does look like the two coins are the same.
Really though I dont quite understand why the guy is getting blasted like he is. Far worse examples are present on Ebay and even in your own home town. So a coin has been AT'ed, so what, it happens every day.
I do not condone AT but a forum crusade against a single individual certainly is not going to solve the problem. The crusade by this forum should have happened when the Major Dealers would not give any names of the Major Doctors on this public forum. That would have been a worth while crusade instead of this crusade that is after a minor person that may or may not put a little color on a coin.
That is the exact reason I started this stupid thread! I was amazed by it! I wasn't even looking for what I found. It just kinda fell in my lap! I was just curious as to the post saying he had bought all those chemicals and stuff so I started looking at all his buying! I saw that he bought that 82 S and I said to myself I'll check his current auctions just to see if he's selling another 82 S. Sure enough!! I didn't even have to look at the coins very long to think that IMO they were the same! It just doesn't add up to me! It's funny how he was on here last night defending himself but has failed to really do anything today! Maybe he's at church!
Here is another point! I'm at work right now and not at home where I saved the original pictures but if you check out the picture I posted to start this tread and look at the neck gouge it's not as I remember it a 1:30 this morning. I can't prove that because I don't have the picture to compare but will have in a couple of hours! Maybe I'm loosing my mind with this thread but I think he may have "touched up" this photo again!
Just speculation of course! But if any of you saved my original post last night PLEASE check it with the new picture!
I'm Out
Chris
"The last thing we want to see is a smoking gun. A gun smokes after it's been fired…. If someone waits for a smoking gun, it's certain we will have waited too long."
Six bidders withdrew their bids and the auction was closed without a sale. It will be interesting to see if the coin is ever produced for an independent to examine. I could have been fooled by different methods and will certainly acknowledge it if I can see the coin in person.
PNG member, same identity as Julian, a veteran numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>The crusade by this forum should have happened when the Major Dealers would not give any names of the Major Doctors on this public forum. >>
Dear Mr. Fairlaneman, do you really believe that the witch burners and inquisitors would dare carry on a crusade against the big guys?
It' easy to persecute, condemn, and destroy the reputation of some "little person", why any coward can do that. But to seek real justice, to expose great wrong, that requires courage. So seriously, as with the Inquisition and the witch hunts of the past, expect the little people to go to the stake, while the big guys help fan the flames, stir the rabble, and increase their profits. Such has been the foolishness of humanity since the beginning of history. Now the forum can declare victory, congratulate itself on its futherance of education, look the other way at the burning ashes of its victims, and go to sleep in the comfort and security of its self-righteousness.
Be careful Mr. Fairlaneman, you too are being watched - what books have you been reading?
"The last thing we want to see is a smoking gun. A gun smokes after it's been fired…. If someone waits for a smoking gun, it's certain we will have waited too long."
<< <i>Here is another point! I'm at work right now and not at home where I saved the original pictures but if you check out the picture I posted to start this tread and look at the neck gouge it's not as I remember it a 1:30 this morning. I can't prove that because I don't have the picture to compare but will have in a couple of hours! Maybe I'm loosing my mind with this thread but I think he may have "touched up" this photo again! >>
Chris MAY have a good point, and it MAY have caused Julian and Mark, who came in later, to be mistaken. Take a look at the reverse of the auction now vs. the pic of the reverse of the auction coin saved on the first page. It seems that the marks in the left encircled section have changed.
Comments
I do have to give the guy credit for standing up for himself though after being attacked...
Here's just a few choice names he's been called on here......
fraudulent- slimball- his future suckers-dipsh!t- weenie sleazeball-complete idiot-
hippo mouth-hummingbird butt-rude
And I see some are even attacking "Southernbell"
Has anyone said sorry to Toadstool1 for attacking him because they thought he was Aswimmer?
I thought so.
An apology would require a modicum of decency, class, and respect. I'm not expecting to see one anytime soon.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>Wow....Sounds like Lucy really HATES this guy........... >>
Huh? I don't hate anybody..... Even DCAMFrankie........ I am just on the side of the fence that believes these coins in question are one and the same.... and I fully leave open the door that I may be 100% wrong... as far as ebay and contacting people about awsimmers auctions, I am not part of that... I simply think the coins are the same... As far as Jullian, I have absolutely no reason on earth to hate or even dislike him..... He's not the first person to disagree with me, nor will he be the last... And, I can see his thinking about a proffessional opinion.... I just think that a non-proffessional also can have a higly regarded opinion as well....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
That coin is more genuine than most of the trade dollars coming out of Singapore which is doing alot more damage to coin collecting than what appears to be an artificial toned Morgan selling for $40. Even if it is AT doesn't mean Aswimmer did it. It is very possible his grandfather bought color when MANY dealers were dipping coins to blast white or whizzing coins.
Some of you talk as if you want to prosecute this guy and send him to jail - for what I ask?
I feel because of the PL surfaces, light source, camera angle, photoshop editing, etc. NO definitive answer will be 100% that these ARE or ARE NOT the same coin.
Even if these are the same coin, and some of your accusations are correct - no one is forcing bidders to bid and buyers to buy - what happened to free market place in America? Also if these are the same coin - after eBay fees, PayPal fees, shipping, etc. less than $10 profit was made
I think the Hunt brothers did a major disservice to the coin industry in the early 80's when they played with the price of silver - turned collecting into a bad investment for many people - what happened to them? (I don't know)
Remember OJ - if both the glove AND shoe don't fit, let him go
You know me. I am a professional, full time dealer. It appears to me that the two photos are of the same coin. There are too many similarities between the two. Yes there are also dissimilarites, but remember, there were taken by two different photographers with different lighting and different equipment, as well as two different lighting angles.
I can take a photo of the same coin and in one photo the surface marks appear like major gouges and the other photo, taken from a different angle, may show them quite differently. Remember, this is with the SAME equipment and same light source, color balance, etc. Only difference would be the angle of the coin with respect to the lighting.
Now if you take many coin photographs, you'll know what I'm saying is correct. Stujoe has pointed our with his painstaking scrutiny that the coins appear to be the same. That's my preliminary opinion as well.
No, I don't think the seller should be defiled. It was wrong of the original poster to write his bidders...dead wrong! A few days ago a seller was using my exact photo in his auction of a 1955/55 DD Lincoln Cent. I wrote to seller but got no reply. I contacted Safe Harbor and they endedf the auction within a day!I never would contact his bidders!
Here's a story, however, that ALL should take into account.
A few years ago I was selling a raw, non-slabbed 1909 S VDB 1c on eBay that I described as Good in condition. One of the RCC forum members asked if people thought it was genuine. Many naysayers and skeptics jumped on the bandwagon and soon people were contacting my bidders. A well-known and well-respected Indian Head cent specialist voiced his opinion on RCC that it was bad. People were cancelling their bids left and right. I send the coin off to be certified by a fast route and it came back as genuine and a VG-8. I knew it was genuine all along and I carefully outlined the diagnostics in my eBay description. Nevertheless, I lost about $100 plus the grading fees. My reputation could have been SULLIED as a result of this incident. Yes, the IHC dealer later apologized and we have done much business since, both ways.
Nevertheless, there's a real danger in publicly disparaging a seller's item unless you know for sure that it is "BAD."
I think the two 1882-S Morgans SEEM to be the same coin. Perhaps one was improved in Photoshop, or maybe not. A private e-mail to seller might have been in order IF the original poster thought the coin was artificially toned, but his virtiolic e-mails and his subsequent posts on this forum to gain allies was ill-advised in my opinion.
We cannot be the guardians of all auctiions on eBay or elsewhere. It would be a frustrating and fruitless battle.
Ira Stein (it's ME, Julian!)
I think the two coins are not the same for 4 reasons:
1. In this country, we don't convict a person without proof. All other evidence, like the other questionable stuff that can be used to doctor coins, is moot to the assertion that the two coins are the same. (If the assertion is that ASwimmer A/T's his coins, then that other evidence is germane.) Moreover, the proof has to be affirmative; i.e., you cannot say that the coins are identical simply because he hasn't been able to prove that they are different.
2. The white coin that AS bought has far more marks than the toned one that he's trying to sell.
3. Some of the marks that Shylock, et al, use to assert that they are the same are clearly different to me. In particular, there is a mark on the bridge of the nose in both coins. The marks are different because they go in different directions.
(I think the evidence of similar marks is controvertible because one coin appears to have so many more marks than the other, and most bagmarks look the same.)
4. A couple of folks have said that the reverses are different. I haven't checked, and I'm just taking their word that these are two different VAM varieties.
Finally, let me make it perfectly clear that I am only addressing the assertion that the two coins are the same. To me, they are very different. I make no claim regarding ASWimmer's overall professional, ethical, or moral conduct. However, I would be highly reluctant to buy any coins from him. Call it a gut call.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I think the fact that we can't even agree on whether or not we're looking at pictures of the same, or sperate coins should show the absolute ludicracy of hanging this guy because "100% of his inventory is AT." If viewing photos over the Internet makes it so difficyult to determine if 2 photos are of 1 coin or 2, how can it be so hard to understand that perhaps not all of his coins are AT, or he isn't aware one way or the other.
I say hang him, after shooting him, then burn him at a stake. Give me 30 minutes notice and I'll have us a nice crowd to watch!
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>Stujoe has pointed our with his painstaking scrutiny that the coins appear to be the same. That's my preliminary opinion as well. No, I don't think the seller should be defiled. It was wrong of the original poster to write his bidders...dead wrong! >>
I agree completely. I don't think anyone should be interfering in this guy's auctions or with his bidders and I am certainly not advocating that and would never do it myself. I have also called the guy no names. I have just presented my opinion on the two coins from a purely photographic standpoint. As I have said, I could be wrong. I also know it is not 100% conclusive and have not said it is.
I know he is reading here and has been open to discussion on this forum. It is still my opinion tha the coins are the same but I would be more than happy to have him come back and convince me otherwise. A genuine picture of both coins on the newspaper would do it. If someone who really knows VAMS can line the pictures up and say conclusively which VAMS they are, that would be good too. I don't know VAMS.
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
Please examine the pattern of three dings , their size and spread.
Brian.
Does this look familiar to anyone?
Would have hated living in Salem in 1692 and having some of you as neighbors.
<< <i>When another professional, such as Mark Feld, as well as my self, say that they are different coins, that is our professional opinions and should be valuable! >>
With all due respect Julian, that's known as an "Argument from Authority", and is a logical fallacy. You can't just say they're different have have it be accepted. However, when you tell why you think they are different, that opinion will carry more weight because of your expert status.
I am decidedly not an expert, and to my layperson eyes, they appear to be the same coin. The timing of the two auctions and the purchase of the various chemicals and implements also go against his case. I don't think it's reached "beyond a reasonable doubt" levels, but the preponderance of evidence so far goes against Mr Swimmer.
Please examine the pattern of three dings , their size and spread.
God help me for I am about to post again on this issue...
It is not difficult to find very similar-looking marks on two coins that typically come with bagmarks. Why not look at all the differences? Some would say that pictures can lie; those same lying pictures can make similar-looking marks look rather identical too.
How is it that the preponderance of the evidence supports the assertion that the two coins are the same? We have three pieces of evidence: that the two coins have similar-looking marks; that the coins have different marks in different places; and, that images lie.
That, folks, is 1-1-1. (One for "same", one for "different", and one that is neutral.) In our society, tie goes to the defendant.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
How is this relevent? The assertion is NOT that he A/T's his coins. The assertion is that the two coins are the same.
Folks around here want to prove that he A/T's his coins because they feel that they found a smoking gun. That smoking gun -- whether the two coins are the same or just similar-looking -- is what's at stake. If no smoking gun, then what???
But, you can't say that the smoking gun is "true" just because you found circumstantial evidence that he A/T's his coins. They are separate issues. You can use the "similar" issue to prove the "A/T" issue, but not vice versa.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>Folks around here want to prove that he A/T's his coins because they feel that they found a smoking gun. >>
So now you speak for everbody?
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Some experts say it's the same coin, some experts say it's different coins.
If I were a new guy I would be so confused!!
Hey the marks on these 3 coins are similiar; are they the same coin or 3 different coins?
(answer: if I had touched up the pictures by painting over the black spot you experts would probably say they were 3 different coins. They are the same coin, untweaked and straight from the scanner, only the top of the slab in the first picture is propped on a pencil, and the second picture has the left side of the slab is propped on a pencil, and the third the right side is propped up on a pencil.)
True, some of us can't judge a coin from a pict but some us most certianly can.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
It's not so bad for bullseye toning either
They look like different coins to me also, BTW (sorry).
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Brian.
weird things do occur in this world we live in. There are coins that look very similar.
Having said that, it is not even a challenge for me to add or remove marks on images. It is the simplest of things.
And furthermore, changing images that appear in even closed auctions is no challenge for even a beginner in the
world of digital photography.
Furthermore, I would be careful about calling anyone a liar but if i were the fellow being called a liar in this thread, i would
do everything in my power to re-obtain both coins, submit them to Mark Feld for his
examination and let him have the final word.
Those are two cheap coins The current owners (?) of the coins would, i imagine, have no problem selling them back to the
accused under the current circumstances. Or loaning them.
Finally, if i did lie about something, got caught red-handed....i would fess up, ask for forgiveness and fly right. Most people
would forgive if a contrite heart were possessed.
adrian
____________________________
I certainly respect the opinion of anyone who disagrees, but feel the benefit of the doubt should go to the party who has not yet been convicted in a court of law.
Adrain, you said:
<< <i>but if i were the fellow being called a liar in this thread, i would do everything in my power to re-obtain both coins, submit them to Mark Feld for his examination and let him have the final word
>>
You, sir, are a LIAR - now send all of your coins to me for my examination!
Edited to add - thank you for what I take to be a very nice compliment.
Mrs. coinguy1 and I are leaving for the gym - I doubt it will be nearly as entertaining as this place.
Thanks
GSAGUY
It is not fair to assert that his victims are his fellows. I.e., that his victims are in any way like him...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Calculating the remote possibility of this occurring by chance would be difficult. But, I venture to say that I would be happy to bet anyone even money that if they compared every Morgan dollar in existence, they could not find 2 which had as many similarities as these 2 coins.
So, even without the other abundant circumstantial evidence presented, and notwithstanding the opinions of Mark and Julian, which I would readily accept if they were to view the coins in person, I am very strongly persuaded that these are one and the same coin.
Don't know if the two are the same -- don't care if the two are the same, but here's some more legal advice on the issue and a response to an earlier post.
<< <i>Hypothetical question for the lawyers on the forum: If it could be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the two images are in fact of the same coin, and was knowingly and intentionally fraudulently represented by the seller would that be "actionable"? (That is the word you use isn't it?) >>
Here's the text from Swimmer's auctions; Part I
<< <i>Here is an MS 1882-s that is sure to turn heads. In person this coins pops. The obverse in rich golds and pinks with spots ob bright blue is great by itself, but when the reverse has DMPL qualities then it is really a fantastic coin. The cartwheel on the reverse is so strong and the mirror like characteristics are amazing. Strong lustre and strike. Trust me this baby is a great catch. It does have that one dotted scratch on the obverse but one guy said it gives her character, I guess if you like Madam Frankenstein. She came from my Grandfather's collection of toned US Coins that I have been selling on and off over the last few months. I am about getting close to being done with the Morgans with about 85 pcs to go. >>
Fraud is actionable, fraud is a mind set, mens rea, it is not what is directly said, but how it is said based upon the intent of the person making the statement. Puffing is not fraud and for the most part allowable in sales of just about anything -- see your local car dealer.
Well, Mr Swimmer seems to be puffing in his description -- the only place he steps over the line is when he states the coin is from his grandfather's collection of toned coins. If you could prove that Mr. Swimmer was coloring coins and then selling them with a disguise of originality and authenticity, you could probably win a small claims suit from him in Lafayette California. Good luck doing that unless he was your next door neighbor. One of the problems with Mr Swimmer's auctions is that they are low dollar coins, so if you did sue it would be in small claims court and really who is going to put that much troouble into recouping their $50? Now if Mr. Swimmer was selling $10,000 toned coins, now we get to Superior Court in California and maybe, but I've forgotten but I think its $75,000 we could get into Federal Court and Mr. Swimmer might have to come to your neck of the woods.
Otherwise forget the lawsuit thing, well, there's one other option -- class action. But that would be impossible to certify the class.
So, basically, he's going to keep doing what he's doing, unless someone really makes it goal to investigate this further -- my suggestion --- buy a coin and send it off to PCGS. If it comes back AT, go sue him in small claims court in Lafayette California.
OR, try using the Federal authorities, perhaps this is mail fraud. Anytime you use the US Postal service to defruad someone, they like to know about it. Perhaps contacting the Attorney General's Office in California might get you some help, but doubtful, we're out of $$ in this state.
It's unfortunate, but legally, unless someone want's to step up to the plate with big $$, like Laura @ Legend, there's little that can be done legally about coin doctors and AT artist on EBay.
Michael
The coins are the same, which means that not only is aswimmer a coin doctor, he is also a scan doctor. He not only added the toning but he cleaned up some of the hits and marks from his scan to try to make the coin look like a higher grade than it really is. Dog is right on the mark.
Macqui
GC's DMPL Set
The best protection against AT is education. If you feel a coin is AT, don't buy it. Simple as that.
If you still can't tell the difference , then buy certified only. Its not a 100% guarantee against AT, but
at least you're 99% safe. End of story.
Brian.
Thanks for the info!! I'm not about to sue anyone but I think that this thread has opened the eyes of many who were in doubt out there!
#$%@ where is the spellcheck button on this forum!!!
I am so stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm Out!!
Chris
P.S. This thread has also greatly improved my post count!
When one looks at the ordered armamentarium by the seller in question [and listed in this thread] it seems obvious that a lab setup is being made for the production of something other than methamphetamine.
2 plus 2 generally equals 4.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
myurl
If this question is ever answered it might be the most interesting post of this thread.
Really though I dont quite understand why the guy is getting blasted like he is. Far worse examples are present on Ebay and even in your own home town. So a coin has been AT'ed, so what, it happens every day.
I do not condone AT but a forum crusade against a single individual certainly is not going to solve the problem. The crusade by this forum should have happened when the Major Dealers would not give any names of the Major Doctors on this public forum. That would have been a worth while crusade instead of this crusade that is after a minor person that may or may not put a little color on a coin.
JMHO
Ken
Here is another point! I'm at work right now and not at home where I saved the original pictures but if you check out the picture I posted to start this tread and look at the neck gouge it's not as I remember it a 1:30 this morning. I can't prove that because I don't have the picture to compare but will have in a couple of hours! Maybe I'm loosing my mind with this thread but I think he may have "touched up" this photo again!
Just speculation of course! But if any of you saved my original post last night PLEASE check it with the new picture!
I'm Out
Chris
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
myurl
<< <i>The crusade by this forum should have happened when the Major Dealers would not give any names of the Major Doctors on this public forum. >>
Dear Mr. Fairlaneman, do you really believe that the witch burners and inquisitors would dare carry on a crusade against the big guys?
It' easy to persecute, condemn, and destroy the reputation of some "little person", why any coward can do that. But to seek real justice, to expose great wrong, that requires courage. So seriously, as with the Inquisition and the witch hunts of the past, expect the little people to go to the stake, while the big guys help fan the flames, stir the rabble, and increase their profits. Such has been the foolishness of humanity since the beginning of history. Now the forum can declare victory, congratulate itself on its futherance of education, look the other way at the burning ashes of its victims, and go to sleep in the comfort and security of its self-righteousness.
Be careful Mr. Fairlaneman, you too are being watched - what books have you been reading?
<< <i>Here is another point! I'm at work right now and not at home where I saved the original pictures but if you check out the picture I posted to start this tread and look at the neck gouge it's not as I remember it a 1:30 this morning. I can't prove that because I don't have the picture to compare but will have in a couple of hours! Maybe I'm loosing my mind with this thread but I think he may have "touched up" this photo again! >>
Chris MAY have a good point, and it MAY have caused Julian and Mark, who came in later, to be mistaken. Take a look at the reverse of the auction now vs. the pic of the reverse of the auction coin saved on the first page. It seems that the marks in the left encircled section have changed.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter