I do not believe the images to be of the same coin.
Without going into all of the specifics, there are many reverse abrasions above and below "IN GOD WE TRUST" on the toned example, that are not present on the untoned one. Unless the marks were somehow applied to the coin after the untoned image was shot, or unless some new trick photography procedure is being used to make abrasions show up on toned coins when they don't on untoned ones (it's usually the other way around!), it's not the same coin.
Also, comparing a few of the stars on the obverse - the one to the right of "UNUM' on the toned piece appears to be a bit sharper and have a ding on it that is not present on the untoned example. The first two stars to the left of the date appear to be sharper on the toned piece. There are many more things I could point to, but if I haven't already convinced the skeptics, chances are I never will.
Hey Swimmer is reportedly the owner of "both" of these coins so if they are really two separate coins lets see them photgraphed together with a copy of today's newspaper date across the top. Should be a snap to do since Swimmer photos his own coins on Ebay all the time.
The parts of the reverse that seem the same to me:
Look at the 3 ticks above and between the star and O in One The big mark above the star after the R in dollar. The mark in the field to the right of the 11th feather up on the right wing (as you look at it) The mark above the R in America 2 dings between T and E of United Scratch above the left upper corner of the second T in States. Scratch below and between the M and E of America. Single tick above and to the right of the R in Dollar
The lighting and the angle of the coins are different and that can make a drastic difference in looks as anyone who has taken a coin picture should know. I am still of the opinion that they are the same. If not, they are unbelievable twins.
Time sure flies when you don't know what you are doing...
I'd just like to add that the intentions of this post was to get a new perspective from everyone. I know that we have many, stress the word many, experts when it comes to this hobby and as a new collector that is why I read every post! I am glad that we are doing these types of posts weather Mr Swimmer turns out to be what some claim or does not! It helps collectors such as myself tremendously! I have a new awareness of my dealings and feel more comfortable about this hobby! Before I would have ran out to buy a piece such as the TONED Morgan Mr Swimmer has. Now I'm not sure I would without the advice from certain respected individuals on this forum! For that THANK YOU!!!!!! Next I would like to think NorthCoin for being the voice of reason. He has made many good points for Mr Swimmer! So I guess this next question or point is for you Alan because I know that you are reading this and I want to believe you as a member of our community!
PLEASE do as NorthCoin has suggested! Grab todays paper and set the 2 coins side by side not a big deal! I want to believe your in the right. It's just hard and very suspicous because it wasn't very difficult for me to start this thread! It took maybe 2 minutes to find the 2 coins! That's pretty sad!
That's all I wanted to say!
Where's FRATTLAW when you need him!!!!!
I'm Out!!
Chris
"The last thing we want to see is a smoking gun. A gun smokes after it's been fired…. If someone waits for a smoking gun, it's certain we will have waited too long."
With differant light angles it may look like there are some bag-marks that were not there in the first photo and some that seem to have just apeared but the chances of the coin having the exact same marks does make you wonder.
In addition to the other things mentioned purchased on Ebay by aswimmer, he has also purchased 2 dremel kits, 5 bottles of silver acid test, an industrial microscope, a coin conservation handbook, a book on detecting altered coins and coins that are the same date and denomination of ones he has for sell now that are toned. Mr. Swimmer care to address these purchases?
The items mentioned here could either alter a coin slightly or to a great extent.
Edited to add: Mark you are correct I don't think you can convince me other wise. I've loaned money to people for too many years, this is one seller that sends up more red flags than the entire Russian Olympic judging team.
Hey Mark Field if I am one of the skeptics you are refering to, no you don't convince me, nor am I trying to convince you or anyone else. I am simply on the side of the fence that says this is the same coin.
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>In addition to the other things mentioned purchased on Ebay by aswimmer, he has also purchased 2 dremel kits, 5 bottles of silver acid test, an industrial microscope, a coin conservation handbook, a book on detecting altered coins and coins that are the same date and denomination of ones he has for sell now that are toned. Mr. Swimmer care to address these purchases? >>
Dear Mr. SpanishMiguel, (this example is fiction to make a point - not a reference to any individual)
Would you like people running around checking out everything you have purchased? Perhaps a list of X-rated videos from Blockbuster? What about those purchases at the drug store, any jewelry store purchases that maybe your wife isn't aware of? Have you purchased any womens "intimate clothing" for personal use. What books have you been reading (perhaps you checked out Karl Marx from the library in 1983?). Mr. SpanishMiguel, would you care to address these purchases (in an open and public forum, of course)?
As a former file clerk, Mr. SpanishMiguel, you are now also an expert, qualified, licensed forensic detective; or is it wannabe Inquisitor?
With all respect, please go back and re-study the history of fascism Sir!
Even though there appears to be some minor inconsistancies in the two scans, I believe that they can be explained by the different angles and lighting. I also believe that there are enough exact marks to convince me that these two coins are the same. The clincher or final nail in the coffin for me is all the chemicals he has purchased. So for me, case closed.
Also, in reference to the post just before mine, I have nothing to hide ever. Please feel free to look up my entire purchase history or anything else that makes you more comfortable.
I don't believe it will ever be possible for the seller to photograph the two coins side by side with a copy of today's newspaper because they are the SAME coin. After all, if someone would doctor a coin is it so inconceivable that the photos could be doctored? It's a simple job in Photoshop or other image editing program to remove some imperfections on an image. Now, as has been pointed out, lighting angles as well as lighting sources, toning, etc can change the appearance of a coin, simple removal of some defectes from an altered coin would make it look like a diffrerent coin. Still several marks have apparently been misssed and I'm betting on the two coins being identical.
I'm a coin dealer, full time, and I have the utmost respect for Mark Feld of Pinnacle Rarities. However, that said, there's just too much evidence here to point to the coins not being doctored and artificially toned. Besides, what about the toning? Sure looks artificial to me from what I see in the photos.
What about the evidence of that seller's purchase of that specific date Morgan dollar as well as a myriad of equipment, burnishing tools, etc. on eBay. Does he need this for his computer sales? I don't think so. Does this mean he must be using it for coin alteration? Not necessarily, but sure LOOKS suspicious.
The main thrust, in fact the only thrust of my earlier post is that bidders in an auction should NOT be contacted by others. That IS auction interference, and it is simply NOT allowed, as it is auction interference. I don't believe Mr. Swimmer wants to sue anyone, and I think we should ALL take a deep breath, sit back and pay attention to the seller's auctions for a while.
He is certainly now aware that his auctions will be scrutinized.
These coins are ABSOLUTELY DIFFERENT coins. Take it from another very experienced numismatist.
PNG member, same identity as Julian, a veteran numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Maybe a good suggestion is simply this. Email bidders to come join our forum. Ask them to bring their knowledge to our group! Don't mention any wrong doings just simply ask them to show and join the crowd!
It could read like this:
Hello fellow collector! My name is _____ and I am a member of the PCGS Message Boards and we are always looking for new members! It costs nothing and you learn alot about whats going on with our hobby! Hope to hear from you soon!
Then you provide a link!!!
That can't be against the law or interference or whatever!!
I'm Out!!!
Chris
"The last thing we want to see is a smoking gun. A gun smokes after it's been fired…. If someone waits for a smoking gun, it's certain we will have waited too long."
Here is a PM I sent to a board member about these coins (I sent it about 2 hours ago).
<FONT face=Verdana size=1>I have been reading the posts about aswimmer this morning, very interesting.
</FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=1>http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=167297</FONT> <FONT face=Verdana size=1>in this post you place pics side by side and point out things that are the same. I look at the location of the mint mark and it looks different to me. Can you / would you research that? I am mearly eyeballing it and it looks like the one on the left (pre AT?) the mintmark is northwest of the post AT? coin. </FONT>
I too am thinking that these are two different coins.
When another professional, such as Mark Feld, as well as my self, say that they are different coins, that is our professional opinions and should be valuable!
PNG member, same identity as Julian, a veteran numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Julian, valuing your opinion is different from disagreeing with it. I don't know you, but I have spoken to, met and purchased a coin for Mr. Feld. Doesn't mean he and I are going to agree on everything. With all due respect to PNG and you being a long time member, what does that have to do with whether these coins are AT or whether or not we have the right to express an opinion on them?
Still waiting for the photo of the two coins side by side. Sure they could be photoshoped and "doctored" but at least Swimmer could make a good faith showing. And to my mind the sooner the photo is up the less liklihood there is that Swimmer went out and purchased photoshop and read through its multipage manual to master learning how to manipulate the pictures.
I'm still struck by the fact that no one has addressed my question about WHEN and HOW these coins were portrayed as "Genuine" or "Original." aswimmer added those descriptions after the fact, after howardw007@aol.com had harrassed the hell out of his bidders.
He NEVER portrayed them as original or genuine or investment pieces. Why shouldn't he be allowed to do whatever he wants to his coins and sell them to whomever he wants? Who here is the God of Numismatics, who has the right and ordained responsibility of telling a seller how and if he can sell his coins?
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
If you have the graphics know how and the program to do it, rotate the reverses to be the same and then line them up side by side. Greyscaling both images might be a little helpful too. While it is jut another opinion, my opinion remains the same. Others are free to disagree, of course.
The photos were taken by two different people with two different cameras with two different setups and with two different angles and two different sets of lights. I have seen the same person take the same picture of the exact same coin and have it not look as much alike as these two do to me.
Of course, if I could hold both coins in my hand and look at them, it would be much easier to tell.
Time sure flies when you don't know what you are doing...
OK, I recognize Swimmer has extensive experience with computers and I suppose it is correct that he could create a phony picture, but let's see him try first and then judge the results for what they appear to be. All I'm asking for is a good faith effort. The absence of a photo showing the two coins together with today's newspaper and date in a timely manner speaks louder than anything else at this point. Keep in mind that it isn't that easy to locate two PL or DMPL reverses for the same date coin - and hopefully we will get to see photos of both sides of the coins side by side.
Dave, read item 6 in his ebay ad, full disclosure as to items good and bad points. I suppose you could split some more hairs and say this doesn't have any bearing on whether he AT'd them or didn't. You are correct he has the right to sell whatever he wants on ebay as long as it is within their guidelines. No one has the right to email his buyers, it is interference. I got involved in this when he came on this forum and started blowing smoke up our collective beehives. Dave you can split hairs are you want, if he and I emphasize if he AT'd these coins then he hasn't given full disclosure about the coins good and bad points as he promised to do?
The coins have different patterns of abrasions on the obverse and reverse. There is nothing wrong with disagreement, but when there is defamation happening, listening to two identified professionals should be of some importance. I have not seen actual identities of any one saying that they are the same coin. Again, I am all for differing opinions and wholesome debate, but this has gone way too far.
PNG member, same identity as Julian, a veteran numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
You opinion is taking into consideration like everyone elses. No matter how professional you are its hard to know the same coin from 2 differant pictures, lighting, angles, cameras. Edited to remove opinion that should not have been stated.
<< <i>Just show me the pictures and I may be convinced too. >>
I am not going to post someone else's pictures without permission. However, if aswimmer gives me the ok, I would be happy to do it.
The pictures are slightly different sized and rotated from one anohter. I use Picture It. If you have it or something similar, take both photos in, make cutouts of each coin (and only the coin) and put each of them in a new picture. Make one transparent, lay it over the top of the other one. Rotate and resize the transparent one until the main devices line up. Undo the transparency and then line up. Look at things like the mint mark again.
Time sure flies when you don't know what you are doing...
<< <i>listening to two identified professionals should be of some importance. I have not seen actual identities of any one saying that they are the same >>
Then appearently you were too professional to notice iras4 post.... Simply because you come and make professional claims doesn't make me value your opinion as a diffinative end it all over some of the many experts on this board. I will counter and say there are plenty board members here that also have opinions of great importance...
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
PNG member, same identity as Julian, a veteran numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>The coins have different patterns of abrasions on the obverse and reverse. There is nothing wrong with disagreement, but when there is defamation happening, listening to two identified professionals should be of some importance. I have not seen actual identities of any one saying that they are the same coin. Again, I am all for differing opinions and wholesome debate, but this has gone way too far. >>
As I have said, it is just my opinion. I have done some fairly in depth looking at the pictures and have tried to correct them for size and rotation. Could my opinion be wrong? Sure, but right now I haven't seen much that would change my opinion. Others are obviously free to disagree and I respect their opinion in the matter.
Time sure flies when you don't know what you are doing...
IrishMike, Its either apples and apples, or it isn't. This guy gets RAILED because someone reads something into his description that perhaps he was very careful to omit. The promise of full disclosure could easily be reached even if the coins are AT. If he didn't apply the toning, would he have absolute knowledge of it beeing AT?
And if you're going to hold him to such a specific application of the wording, shouldn't we hold ourselves to that same standard, vis a vis, have DEFINITIVE PROOF before we go trashing a man's reputation and livelihood?
I hope he sues. He needs to sue. This is absolutely dispicable behavior by many on this forum.
ATing coins IS NOT AGAINST THE LAW. Defamation and interfering with commerce are. He never said they were original (and I think that can easily be proven in a court of law, even given the "full disclosure" statement. Full disclosure has a LEGAL definition, and evidently it differs from what many here wish it actually were).
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>don't believe it will ever be possible for the seller to photograph the two coins side by side with a copy of today's newspaper because they are the SAME coin. After all, if someone would doctor a coin is it so inconceivable that the photos could be doctored? >>
guess your wrong about that one... as a professional, you should read more carefully..
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
JML a/k/a Julian. Maybe you might want to edit what you just posted. Ira's first sentence in his post ends with the words ".... they are the same coin."
A little KMnO4 with a nice proof Indian head cent can result in beautiful purple envelope toning ... or was that tissue toning. Damn I can never keep my AT straight.
You are correct, Lucy. He did say that the coins were the same. I respectfully disagree with Ira, with whom I have done face to face business. These coins have drastically different marks and the fact that someone purchases the same date, where tens of thousands exist is not a valid point, in my opinion.
PNG member, same identity as Julian, a veteran numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Dave - yes "full disclosure" has a legal definition as the boys at Enron are just now fiinding out too. It means what it says. You don't omit relevant facts and you don't mislead.
Cool JML, and yes, you and Mark could very well be right... Mark, being a ex NGC grader surely has a great eye.... I am not convinced though that some type of photo enhancing has not taken place.... The whole thing is very suspicious to begin with...
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I don't need any new friends Kid, and if I did, an Internet messageboard is one of the last places I'd look.
But you've missed my point. He did not portray them as genuine or original until he reacted to the email attacks. He then put those words in there, I assume, as a sarcastic reaction to the attacks. So, if that is correct, what, pray tell, did he do wrong?
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
North, And since you're supporting the fact that he did not "fully disclose" you must have first hand knowledge that he did in fact know the coins were AT? In other words, you can prove, based on the evidence we've seen, that there is no other possible explanation for him having possession of AT coins other than he created them himself? Given his initial descriptions, how did he mislead?
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Comments
I have edited nothing in the posts.
Alan
Without going into all of the specifics, there are many reverse abrasions above and below "IN GOD WE TRUST" on the toned example, that are not present on the untoned one. Unless the marks were somehow applied to the coin after the untoned image was shot, or unless some new trick photography procedure is being used to make abrasions show up on toned coins when they don't on untoned ones (it's usually the other way around!), it's not the same coin.
Also, comparing a few of the stars on the obverse - the one to the right of "UNUM' on the toned piece appears to be a bit sharper and have a ding on it that is not present on the untoned example. The first two stars to the left of the date appear to be sharper on the toned piece. There are many more things I could point to, but if I haven't already convinced the skeptics, chances are I never will.
Look at the 3 ticks above and between the star and O in One
The big mark above the star after the R in dollar.
The mark in the field to the right of the 11th feather up on the right wing (as you look at it)
The mark above the R in America
2 dings between T and E of United
Scratch above the left upper corner of the second T in States.
Scratch below and between the M and E of America.
Single tick above and to the right of the R in Dollar
The lighting and the angle of the coins are different and that can make a drastic difference in looks as anyone who has taken a coin picture should know. I am still of the opinion that they are the same. If not, they are unbelievable twins.
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
PLEASE do as NorthCoin has suggested! Grab todays paper and set the 2 coins side by side not a big deal! I want to believe your in the right. It's just hard and very suspicous because it wasn't very difficult for me to start this thread! It took maybe 2 minutes to find the 2 coins! That's pretty sad!
That's all I wanted to say!
Where's FRATTLAW when you need him!!!!!
I'm Out!!
Chris
The items mentioned here could either alter a coin slightly or to a great extent.
Edited to add: Mark you are correct I don't think you can convince me other wise. I've loaned money to people for too many years, this is one seller that sends up more red flags than the entire Russian Olympic judging team.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>In addition to the other things mentioned purchased on Ebay by aswimmer, he has also purchased 2 dremel kits, 5 bottles of silver acid test, an industrial microscope, a coin conservation handbook, a book on detecting altered coins and coins that are the same date and denomination of ones he has for sell now that are toned. Mr. Swimmer care to address these purchases? >>
Dear Mr. SpanishMiguel, (this example is fiction to make a point - not a reference to any individual)
Would you like people running around checking out everything you have purchased? Perhaps a list of X-rated videos from Blockbuster? What about those purchases at the drug store, any jewelry store purchases that maybe your wife isn't aware of? Have you purchased any womens "intimate clothing" for personal use. What books have you been reading (perhaps you checked out Karl Marx from the library in 1983?). Mr. SpanishMiguel, would you care to address these purchases (in an open and public forum, of course)?
As a former file clerk, Mr. SpanishMiguel, you are now also an expert, qualified, licensed forensic detective; or is it wannabe Inquisitor?
With all respect, please go back and re-study the history of fascism Sir!
I'm a coin dealer, full time, and I have the utmost respect for Mark Feld of Pinnacle Rarities. However, that said, there's just too much evidence here to point to the coins not being doctored and artificially toned. Besides, what about the toning? Sure looks artificial to me from what I see in the photos.
What about the evidence of that seller's purchase of that specific date Morgan dollar as well as a myriad of equipment, burnishing tools, etc. on eBay. Does he need this for his computer sales? I don't think so. Does this mean he must be using it for coin alteration? Not necessarily, but sure LOOKS suspicious.
The main thrust, in fact the only thrust of my earlier post is that bidders in an auction should NOT be contacted by others. That IS auction interference, and it is simply NOT allowed, as it is auction interference. I don't believe Mr. Swimmer wants to sue anyone, and I think we should ALL take a deep breath, sit back and pay attention to the seller's auctions for a while.
He is certainly now aware that his auctions will be scrutinized.
Ira Stein
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
myurl
It could read like this:
Hello fellow collector! My name is _____ and I am a member of the PCGS Message Boards and we are always looking for new members! It costs nothing and you learn alot about whats going on with our hobby! Hope to hear from you soon!
Then you provide a link!!!
That can't be against the law or interference or whatever!!
I'm Out!!!
Chris
<FONT face=Verdana size=1>I have been reading the posts about aswimmer this morning, very interesting.
</FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=1>http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=167297</FONT>
<FONT face=Verdana size=1>in this post you place pics side by side and point out things that are the same. I look at the location of the mint mark and it looks different to me. Can you / would you research that? I am mearly eyeballing it and it looks like the one on the left (pre AT?) the mintmark is northwest of the post AT? coin. </FONT>
I too am thinking that these are two different coins.
<< <i>sothernbelle do you think I am stupid enough to believe your schtick? Give it up, try your act on someone else, like the neighborhood kids. >>
Spoken with the grace, intellect and dignity of a true gentlemen. Definitely a person worthy of our respect.
<< <i>These coins are ABSOLUTELY DIFFERENT coins. Take it from another very experienced numismatist. >>
Well, I guess that settles the whole issue. It was the very experience numismatist part that was the clincher for me.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
myurl
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
He NEVER portrayed them as original or genuine or investment pieces. Why shouldn't he be allowed to do whatever he wants to his coins and sell them to whomever he wants? Who here is the God of Numismatics, who has the right and ordained responsibility of telling a seller how and if he can sell his coins?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
The photos were taken by two different people with two different cameras with two different setups and with two different angles and two different sets of lights. I have seen the same person take the same picture of the exact same coin and have it not look as much alike as these two do to me.
Of course, if I could hold both coins in my hand and look at them, it would be much easier to tell.
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
<< <i>Of course, if I could hold both coins in my hand and look at them, it would be much easier to tell. >>
LoL!!!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>Who here is the God of Numismatics, who has the right and ordained responsibility of telling a seller how and if he can sell his coins? >>
I think it has been made clear that this title belongs soley to... who else? Coin doctors.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
myurl
<< <i>Just show me the pictures and I may be convinced too. >>
I am not going to post someone else's pictures without permission. However, if aswimmer gives me the ok, I would be happy to do it.
The pictures are slightly different sized and rotated from one anohter. I use Picture It. If you have it or something similar, take both photos in, make cutouts of each coin (and only the coin) and put each of them in a new picture. Make one transparent, lay it over the top of the other one. Rotate and resize the transparent one until the main devices line up. Undo the transparency and then line up. Look at things like the mint mark again.
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
<< <i>listening to two identified professionals should be of some importance. I have not seen actual identities of any one saying that they are the same >>
Then appearently you were too professional to notice iras4 post.... Simply because you come and make professional claims doesn't make me value your opinion as a diffinative end it all over some of the many experts on this board. I will counter and say there are plenty board members here that also have opinions of great importance...
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
myurl
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>The coins have different patterns of abrasions on the obverse and reverse. There is nothing wrong with disagreement, but when there is defamation happening, listening to two identified professionals should be of some importance. I have not seen actual identities of any one saying that they are the same coin. Again, I am all for differing opinions and wholesome debate, but this has gone way too far. >>
As I have said, it is just my opinion. I have done some fairly in depth looking at the pictures and have tried to correct them for size and rotation. Could my opinion be wrong? Sure, but right now I haven't seen much that would change my opinion. Others are obviously free to disagree and I respect their opinion in the matter.
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
Its either apples and apples, or it isn't. This guy gets RAILED because someone reads something into his description that perhaps he was very careful to omit. The promise of full disclosure could easily be reached even if the coins are AT. If he didn't apply the toning, would he have absolute knowledge of it beeing AT?
And if you're going to hold him to such a specific application of the wording, shouldn't we hold ourselves to that same standard, vis a vis, have DEFINITIVE PROOF before we go trashing a man's reputation and livelihood?
I hope he sues. He needs to sue. This is absolutely dispicable behavior by many on this forum.
ATing coins IS NOT AGAINST THE LAW. Defamation and interfering with commerce are. He never said they were original (and I think that can easily be proven in a court of law, even given the "full disclosure" statement. Full disclosure has a LEGAL definition, and evidently it differs from what many here wish it actually were).
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>don't believe it will ever be possible for the seller to photograph the two coins side by side with a copy of today's newspaper because they are the SAME coin. After all, if someone would doctor a coin is it so inconceivable that the photos could be doctored? >>
guess your wrong about that one... as a professional, you should read more carefully..
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
A little KMnO4 with a nice proof Indian head cent can result in beautiful purple envelope toning ... or was that tissue toning. Damn I can never keep my AT straight.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
myurl
<< <i>ATing coins IS NOT AGAINST THE LAW. >>
But AT'ing coins and selling them as reall is. Your not making any friends here by hoping people get sued you know.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
But you've missed my point. He did not portray them as genuine or original until he reacted to the email attacks. He then put those words in there, I assume, as a sarcastic reaction to the attacks. So, if that is correct, what, pray tell, did he do wrong?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
And since you're supporting the fact that he did not "fully disclose" you must have first hand knowledge that he did in fact know the coins were AT? In other words, you can prove, based on the evidence we've seen, that there is no other possible explanation for him having possession of AT coins other than he created them himself? Given his initial descriptions, how did he mislead?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman