Well I am overjoyed that this had a happy ending. I hope the whole ordeal sends the message to all grading services that reneging on guarantees creates enormous push back in the numismatic community.
@jt88 said:
This is from the NGC site, it did not even mention only 2026 graded coins.
Yes. They either tried it and back peddled or truly have incompetent people working for them. After numerous NGC employees made contradictory claims and some prodding from Mark, they have announced they will edit it in a few days to remove the limitation language about the 10 year date. I'm still not excited about the language claiming that you waive all legal claims against them whether through arbitration or litigation, but we are making some progress.
I don't understand. You're a wholesale dealer and your wholesale supplier says OK we are going to only warranty our services from July on for X years, and so you say OK thanks and turn around and walk away?
It takes a message board to change a policy? What?!
@fathom said:
I don't understand. You're a wholesale dealer and your wholesale supplier says OK we are going to only warranty our services from July on for X years, and so you say OK thanks and turn around and walk away?
It takes a message board to change a policy? What?!
While bulk submitters make up the bulk of their revenue, my guess is that were realizing that there would be enormous push back that would hurt the demand for NGC coins. This would, in time, cause some of the bulk submitters to potentially walk away as NGC coins become arguably less liquid. That's my guess. It certainly is what I think would have happened if not for the news from Mark. And I am still not completely convinced that they haven't caused lasting damage due to their delayed response to the consternation from collectors. I still hope they clean up the waiver of arbitration and all legal claims language as well. This hobby needs more viable grading services, not fewer. Collectors benefit when there are multiple worthy competitors.
@fathom said:
I don't understand. You're a wholesale dealer and your wholesale supplier says OK we are going to only warranty our services from July on for X years, and so you say OK thanks and turn around and walk away?
It takes a competitor's message board to change a policy? What?!
@P0CKETCHANGE said:
I hope they keep the “date of grading” field on the cert lookup page. It’s useful information.
Why doesn't PCGS and CACG also do this?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@P0CKETCHANGE said:
I hope they keep the “date of grading” field on the cert lookup page. It’s useful information.
Why doesn't PCGS and CACG also do this?
Probably because of the marketing fantasy the TPGs have historically tried to sell us that grading is consistent so why on earth would you need to know when a coin was graded?
@P0CKETCHANGE said:
I hope they keep the “date of grading” field on the cert lookup page. It’s useful information.
Why doesn't PCGS and CACG also do this?
Probably because of the marketing fantasy the TPGs have historically tried to sell us that grading is consistent so why on earth would you need to know when a coin was graded?
Once upon a time, I think PCGS even had in their terms of service that member dealers were forbidden from inferring value from when a coin may have been encapsulated.
Yay! Can we get the language in gray at the end of the sentence removed too? If not, the revision may not matter especially in light of the statute of limitations comment made by another poster as relayed on the NGC Forums. It could effect the same policy sub silentio and you've waived your right to litigation and arbitration.
WARNING: THIS GUARANTEE IS LIMITED. By making a claim under this Guarantee, Owner (as defined below) agrees to be bound by all of the terms, conditions, limitations, and EXCLUSIVE remedies provided below and waives its right to all other remedies including, without limitation, any and all legal claims asserted through litigation or arbitration.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
No different then the arbitration clause in your brokerage agreement. An unless you talking a 6 figure claim, legal litigation is a waste of time.
I've never read a brokerage agreement where your remedy is to say "pretty please" and I waive any right to either sue or arbitrate. I would never deal with any brokerage firm with that provision in their contract. This is different from the arbitration clauses that are common in commercial contracts (despite my disdain for them). This says you cannot even arbitrate OR sue. Nothing.
Seems to me if this is a change from some previous "guarantee policy" that it should only apply to anything graded after the new policy. In other words, if I have coin grade 25 years ago and it was covered under a guarantee forever it doesn't make sense that NGC should be able to revoke that and now make it be only for 10 years. Didn't we pay for the original one??
I have had my concerns about NGC for awhile now and mainly use their service(s) for things which PCGS doesn't do, that may change now.. This may now mean they need to change their name:
--- Numismatic non-Guaranty Company, abbreviated NnGC.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
@Maywood said:
Seems to me if this is a change from some previous "guarantee policy" that it should only apply to anything graded after the new policy. In other words, if I have coin grade 25 years ago and it was covered under a guarantee forever it doesn't make sense that NGC should be able to revoke that and now make it be only for 10 years. Didn't we pay for the original one??
I have had my concerns about NGC for awhile now and mainly use their service(s) for things which PCGS doesn't do, that may change now.. This may now mean they need to change their name:
--- Numismatic non-Guaranty Company, abbreviated NnGC.
The change to a 10-year time limit for the guarantee (that took effect on June 2’d) was a large part of this thread’s focus. And as I posted a short time ago “The NGC guarantee has been revised to do away with the 10-year time limit.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I had an inclining NGC upon reflection would change their policy.
Glad to see it didn't take tons of time and good to see they did so probably having to swallow their pride.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
No different then the arbitration clause in your brokerage agreement. An unless you talking a 6 figure claim, legal litigation is a waste of time.
I've never read a brokerage agreement where your remedy is to say "pretty please" and I waive any right to either sue or arbitrate. I would never deal with any brokerage firm with that provision in their contract. This is different from the arbitration clauses that are common in commercial contracts (despite my disdain for them). This says you cannot even arbitrate OR sue. Nothing.
Guess you do not read all the way down to the bottom of the agreements. Been like this for the past 40 years I've been in the brokerage world. A brokerage firm had gotten into trouble years ago because they included this clause where you certify your TIN # with your signature. Had to separate the W-9 from the arbitration clause. But even if you do not sign for the arbitration clause, if you report to FINRA an issue, they stick you with their arbitration. Not that you cannot sue if you sign otherwise, but their lawyers will say you signed in advance of opening the account.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
No different then the arbitration clause in your brokerage agreement. An unless you talking a 6 figure claim, legal litigation is a waste of time.
I've never read a brokerage agreement where your remedy is to say "pretty please" and I waive any right to either sue or arbitrate. I would never deal with any brokerage firm with that provision in their contract. This is different from the arbitration clauses that are common in commercial contracts (despite my disdain for them). This says you cannot even arbitrate OR sue. Nothing.
Guess you do not read all the way down to the bottom of the agreements. Been like this for the past 40 years I've been in the brokerage world. A brokerage firm had gotten into trouble years ago because they included this clause where you certify your TIN # with your signature. Had to separate the W-9 from the arbitration clause. But even if you do not sign for the arbitration clause, if you report to FINRA an issue, they stick you with their arbitration. Not that you cannot sue if you sign otherwise, but their lawyers will say you signed in advance of opening the account.
Yes. That is an arbitration clause that makes you arbitrate RATHER than sue in Court. The NGC guarantee language says you CANNOT even arbitrate. That is a VERY different thing.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
No different then the arbitration clause in your brokerage agreement. An unless you talking a 6 figure claim, legal litigation is a waste of time.
Yes. That is an arbitration clause that makes you arbitrate RATHER than sue in Court. The NGC guarantee language says you CANNOT even arbitrate. That is a VERY different thing.
I guess, but who can you arbitrate with if you disagree with NGC, bringing it to PCGS or CACG for a final decision. There is no industry body that agrees to 1 set of rules and opinions like brokerage. The FINRA arbitrators are just other B/D folks who have the same background and a need to preserve the industry. Now if an egregious situation occurs because of a bad apple, they will fine and censure the Rep and maybe firm for lack of oversight.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
No different then the arbitration clause in your brokerage agreement. An unless you talking a 6 figure claim, legal litigation is a waste of time.
Yes. That is an arbitration clause that makes you arbitrate RATHER than sue in Court. The NGC guarantee language says you CANNOT even arbitrate. That is a VERY different thing.
I guess, but who can you arbitrate with if you disagree with NGC, bringing it to PCGS or CACG for a final decision. There is no industry body that agrees to 1 set of rules and opinions like brokerage. The FINRA arbitrators are just other B/D folks who have the same background and a need to preserve the industry. Now if an egregious situation occurs because of a bad apple, they will fine and censure the Rep and maybe firm for lack of oversight.
But again, your comparison is not apt. There are limited circumstances, but some do indeed exist, in many jurisdictions for setting aside an arbitration award. With the guarantee you won't even have the option of arbitrating if you want. And if the denial is frivolous, under AAA rules (I'd have to double check JAMS), you can get an award of attorney's fees and costs. For the record, I am not defending arbitration clauses either. I think these are disgusting and meant to shield large corporations from their misdeeds especially with smaller consumers (for lower value cases, litigation in small claims court can be cheaper than arbitration). Those severely restrict consumer rights. But at least it is something.
As for your question, in arbitration you could have expert witnesses who routinely deal with NGC certified coins. Many large dealers or maybe even ex-NGC graders could be retained. Again, it's not an ideal situation. But it is possible to hold their feet to the fire. The testimony would be that NGC on the coin of interest deviated from its normal operating standards based on their expert opinion and experience in handling thousands of NGC coins. There are other angles, but the point of this is not how to pursue a guarantee claim by force when frivolously denied. It is about limiting the onerous language that prevents you from even getting to the door.
One thing to consider is civil arbitration needs to occur in the state where the 'contract' was executed. That would mean going to NGC's home state to file. As I also noted in my 1st response, unless the damages are 6 figure and above, is it really worth going to arbitration if you have to bring in experts to support your case. I would think in most cases of NGC's obvious mistakes, you can recoup most of your losses.
Corporations should not hide behind legalese in their guarantees to strip the guarantee of any real teeth. Doing so renders it worthless. If you are hoping a large private equity firm is going to keep its word, you're being naive.
But look at the flip side. Someone bought an Morgan 81-S MS 65 for $175. They look at it and feel it is a 64 worth $100. They send it in and NGC says it qualifies for a 65. The collector disagrees and files an arbitration claim for the $75. Its a nuisance claim. If this was allowed to occur, NGC would probably be charging a lot more for their holdering and guarantee to offset this cost of all these minor arbitration claims. The buyer should know how to grade and accept the consequences of their purchase.
If there was an egregious NGC mistake, believe 99% they make the collector whole. But if there is ongoing over-grading and errors, and they fail to correct, they lose their reputation and business. My last $.02.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
But look at the flip side. Someone bought an Morgan 81-S MS 65 for $175. They look at it and feel it is a 64 worth $100. They send it in and NGC says it qualifies for a 65. The collector disagrees and files an arbitration claim for the $75. Its a nuisance claim. If this was allowed to occur, NGC would probably be charging a lot more for their holdering and guarantee to offset this cost of all these minor arbitration claims. The buyer should know how to grade and accept the consequences of their purchase.
If there was an egregious NGC mistake, believe 99% they make the collector whole. But if there is ongoing over-grading and errors, and they fail to correct, they lose their reputation and business. My last $.02.
Whether it is worthwhile to pursue a claim or not misses the point entirely. The company should not be absolved of its responsibility because it is a small claim. A guaranty company is only as good as its word. And if it is willing to avoid a legitimate claim because it can get away with it (either practically or legally), its word is worthless. And by your logic, those buying more expensive coins (especially 5, 6, or 7 figure coins) should have been even more diligent. if not an expert by that point, they should have retained one. By that logic, what good is NGC? It is completely worthless as I am becoming increasingly aware that most TPG guarantees are.
You again seem fixated on arbitration, but you missed the point entirely. My point was that the sweeping language in the agreement (if upheld) strips any scintilla of a chance you would have any recourse of them regardless of value. That should raise eyebrows in any contract. I'm not defending arbitration or arbitration clauses at all. I think those are also unfair, and any time I have been offered a warranty with an arbitration clause, I don't buy it. It's not worth the paper it is printed on. It is not clear that NGC would always be on the hook for the arbitration fees either. (This isn't like the finance field where the customary practice is for the financial entity to end up on the hook after the consumer pays a small filing fee). And arbitration would only become an issue if NGC made it an issue by including an arbitration clause. Neither party can force a party to arbitrate unless it is written into the contract which NGC draft here. No TPG I am aware of has an arbitration clause (PCGS does not).
And we can debate over coins at the extreme end all day, but a dispute isn't going to arise under a claim that small simply because no one is going to waste their postage and insurance on less than a $100 difference. Even if they honor the guarantee, you are still taking a hit. A prospective submitter would likely just sell those to minimize further loses.
Something needs to be added to the title and 1st post, like, decision reversed or recanted. Page 5.
I’ve made revisions to the title and original post, but I am leaving the thread intact for posterity. There is nothing to suggest as of the date this is posted that the original revisions constituted anything other than a blatant attempt to silently kill off the guarantee retroactively and limit it for new coins. Moreover, the October 29, 2026 revision keeps the language claiming that you waive all rights and legal/equitable claims against them regardless of whether the claims are asserted by lawsuit or through arbitration. That my friend is a warranty with no teeth whatsoever.
Guarantees on grade are only good if they are efficient and timely.
My own experience is that our hosts will take 90 days or so to address the problem and then minimize any monetary compensation. NGC only offered credits on future grading. On a $16K coin that was degraded by their "conservation" 10 plus years ago they offered to meet with me at Baltimore to discuss the coin, and their reps. said they could darken or lighten it if I wanted. I was worn out by the process and did not file a complaint with oversight but blew it out at a $3K loss. The dealer I bought it from told me that now NGC will give me their best possible grades, lol. Apparently they think that dealers are made of money and can absorb considerable losses, for many of us this is a hobby business with minimal profits. When NGC got bought out their business plan changed and I know dealers who just cannot justify their annual fee so lost their dealer accounts. At least our hosts are owned by people who have the hobby in mind.
@logger7 said:
Guarantees on grade are only good if they are efficient and timely.
My own experience is that our hosts will take 90 days or so to address the problem and then minimize any monetary compensation. NGC only offered credits on future grading. On a $16K coin that was degraded by their "conservation" 10 plus years ago they offered to meet with me at Baltimore to discuss the coin, and their reps. said they could darken or lighten it if I wanted. I was worn out by the process and did not file a complaint with oversight but blew it out at a $3K loss. The dealer I bought it from told me that now NGC will give me their best possible grades, lol. Apparently they think that dealers are made of money and can absorb considerable losses, for many of us this is a hobby business with minimal profits. When NGC got bought out their business plan changed and I know dealers who just cannot justify their annual fee so lost their dealer accounts. At least our hosts are owned by people who have the hobby in mind.
Wait, they offered to doctor a coin (I.e. darken or lighten it)? How long ago was this? Do they routinely doctor coins? I’m not talking about about a light dip or acetone bath.
@logger7 said:
Guarantees on grade are only good if they are efficient and timely.
My own experience is that our hosts will take 90 days or so to address the problem and then minimize any monetary compensation. NGC only offered credits on future grading. On a $16K coin that was degraded by their "conservation" 10 plus years ago they offered to meet with me at Baltimore to discuss the coin, and their reps. said they could darken or lighten it if I wanted. I was worn out by the process and did not file a complaint with oversight but blew it out at a $3K loss. The dealer I bought it from told me that now NGC will give me their best possible grades, lol. Apparently they think that dealers are made of money and can absorb considerable losses, for many of us this is a hobby business with minimal profits. When NGC got bought out their business plan changed and I know dealers who just cannot justify their annual fee so lost their dealer accounts. At least our hosts are owned by people who have the hobby in mind.
Also there is no guarantee on conservation work in most cases. I’m confused.
@logger7 said:
Guarantees on grade are only good if they are efficient and timely.
My own experience is that our hosts will take 90 days or so to address the problem and then minimize any monetary compensation. NGC only offered credits on future grading. On a $16K coin that was degraded by their "conservation" 10 plus years ago they offered to meet with me at Baltimore to discuss the coin, and their reps. said they could darken or lighten it if I wanted. I was worn out by the process and did not file a complaint with oversight but blew it out at a $3K loss. The dealer I bought it from told me that now NGC will give me their best possible grades, lol. Apparently they think that dealers are made of money and can absorb considerable losses, for many of us this is a hobby business with minimal profits. When NGC got bought out their business plan changed and I know dealers who just cannot justify their annual fee so lost their dealer accounts. At least our hosts are owned by people who have the hobby in mind.
Also there is no guarantee on conservation work in most cases. I’m confused.
PCGS also does conservation work on coins. What kind of guarantee do they give?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@logger7 said:
Guarantees on grade are only good if they are efficient and timely.
My own experience is that our hosts will take 90 days or so to address the problem and then minimize any monetary compensation. NGC only offered credits on future grading. On a $16K coin that was degraded by their "conservation" 10 plus years ago they offered to meet with me at Baltimore to discuss the coin, and their reps. said they could darken or lighten it if I wanted. I was worn out by the process and did not file a complaint with oversight but blew it out at a $3K loss. The dealer I bought it from told me that now NGC will give me their best possible grades, lol. Apparently they think that dealers are made of money and can absorb considerable losses, for many of us this is a hobby business with minimal profits. When NGC got bought out their business plan changed and I know dealers who just cannot justify their annual fee so lost their dealer accounts. At least our hosts are owned by people who have the hobby in mind.
Also there is no guarantee on conservation work in most cases. I’m confused.
Now that NGC recognizes how poor of a decision it was to impose that 10 year limit, does anyone think the people involved in originating that idea and approving it should have any consequences, regardless of how high it goes? This is right up there with the bone head’s at Budweiser and Cracker Barrel!!! Would you hire any of those specific decision makers at NGC, Budweiser or Cracker Barrel to make important decisions for YOUR company?
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set! Winner of the 2026 PCGS Registry Award for “The Best U.S. Type Set”!
@winesteven said:
Now that NGC recognizes how poor of a decision it was to impose that 10 year limit, does anyone think the people involved in originating that idea and approving it should have any consequences, regardless of how high it goes? This is right up there with the bone head’s at Budweiser and Cracker Barrel!!! Would you hire any of those specific decision makers at NGC, Budweiser or Cracker Barrel to make important decisions for YOUR company?
Steve
I give NGC credit for admitting their mistake and revising their ill conceived policy. This policy was probably proposed by one of their lawyers or accountants who are totally clueless concerning coin collecting and coin collectors.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@winesteven said:
Now that NGC recognizes how poor of a decision it was to impose that 10 year limit, does anyone think the people involved in originating that idea and approving it should have any consequences, regardless of how high it goes? This is right up there with the bone head’s at Budweiser and Cracker Barrel!!! Would you hire any of those specific decision makers at NGC, Budweiser or Cracker Barrel to make important decisions for YOUR company?
Steve
I give NGC credit for admitting their mistake and revising their ill conceived policy. This policy was probably proposed by one of their lawyers or accountants who are totally clueless concerning coin collecting and coin collectors.
I give NGC credit too for reversing the bone head’s decision, just like Cracker Barrel reversed the decision of the bone heads who made their initial bad decision. But my point is, should the bone heads involved in originating and approving those poor decisions escape with no consequence???
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set! Winner of the 2026 PCGS Registry Award for “The Best U.S. Type Set”!
@winesteven said:
Now that NGC recognizes how poor of a decision it was to impose that 10 year limit, does anyone think the people involved in originating that idea and approving it should have any consequences, regardless of how high it goes? This is right up there with the bone head’s at Budweiser and Cracker Barrel!!! Would you hire any of those specific decision makers at NGC, Budweiser or Cracker Barrel to make important decisions for YOUR company?
Steve
I give NGC credit for admitting their mistake and revising their ill conceived policy. This policy was probably proposed by one of their lawyers or accountants who are totally clueless concerning coin collecting and coin collectors.
I give NGC credit too for reversing the bone head’s decision, just like Cracker Barrel reversed the decision of the bone heads who made their initial bad decision. But my point is, should the bone heads involved in originating and approving those poor decisions escape with no consequence???
Steve
As a minimum, they should be put in PCGS jail for at least a month.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@winesteven said:
Now that NGC recognizes how poor of a decision it was to impose that 10 year limit, does anyone think the people involved in originating that idea and approving it should have any consequences, regardless of how high it goes? This is right up there with the bone head’s at Budweiser and Cracker Barrel!!! Would you hire any of those specific decision makers at NGC, Budweiser or Cracker Barrel to make important decisions for YOUR company?
Steve
I give NGC credit for admitting their mistake and revising their ill conceived policy. This policy was probably proposed by one of their lawyers or accountants who are totally clueless concerning coin collecting and coin collectors.
I give NGC credit too for reversing the bone head’s decision, just like Cracker Barrel reversed the decision of the bone heads who made their initial bad decision. But my point is, should the bone heads involved in originating and approving those poor decisions escape with no consequence???
Steve
As a minimum, they should be put in PCGS jail for at least a month.
Cruel and unusual...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@winesteven said:
Now that NGC recognizes how poor of a decision it was to impose that 10 year limit, does anyone think the people involved in originating that idea and approving it should have any consequences, regardless of how high it goes? This is right up there with the bone head’s at Budweiser and Cracker Barrel!!! Would you hire any of those specific decision makers at NGC, Budweiser or Cracker Barrel to make important decisions for YOUR company?
Steve
I give NGC credit for admitting their mistake and revising their ill conceived policy. This policy was probably proposed by one of their lawyers or accountants who are totally clueless concerning coin collecting and coin collectors.
But did they really? They removed the 10 year language but left the language removing your right to sue or arbitrate. They decide the remedy and I’ve heard from many that is just grading credits. That’s not much of a warranty and the trust has been broken.
This will not stop me from buying NGC but the non-CACed ones are basically now raw coins with a fancy holder. The NGC guarantee is meaningless.
@dlmtorts said:
Will anyone stop buying NGC coins because of this? I suspect that they will experience significant backlash.
I seriously doubt it. If I see a nice coin that I want in an NGC slab that's fairly priced, I won't hesitate to buy it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Comments
Private equity has a soul?
Well I am overjoyed that this had a happy ending. I hope the whole ordeal sends the message to all grading services that reneging on guarantees creates enormous push back in the numismatic community.
This is from the NGC site, it did not even mention only 2026 graded coins.
Yes. They either tried it and back peddled or truly have incompetent people working for them. After numerous NGC employees made contradictory claims and some prodding from Mark, they have announced they will edit it in a few days to remove the limitation language about the 10 year date. I'm still not excited about the language claiming that you waive all legal claims against them whether through arbitration or litigation, but we are making some progress.
I don't understand. You're a wholesale dealer and your wholesale supplier says OK we are going to only warranty our services from July on for X years, and so you say OK thanks and turn around and walk away?
It takes a message board to change a policy? What?!
While bulk submitters make up the bulk of their revenue, my guess is that were realizing that there would be enormous push back that would hurt the demand for NGC coins. This would, in time, cause some of the bulk submitters to potentially walk away as NGC coins become arguably less liquid. That's my guess. It certainly is what I think would have happened if not for the news from Mark. And I am still not completely convinced that they haven't caused lasting damage due to their delayed response to the consternation from collectors. I still hope they clean up the waiver of arbitration and all legal claims language as well. This hobby needs more viable grading services, not fewer. Collectors benefit when there are multiple worthy competitors.
Fixed it for you.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I hope they keep the “date of grading” field on the cert lookup page. It’s useful information.
Superb collections are built more by omission than by addition.
Why doesn't PCGS and CACG also do this?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Probably because of the marketing fantasy the TPGs have historically tried to sell us that grading is consistent so why on earth would you need to know when a coin was graded?
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Once upon a time, I think PCGS even had in their terms of service that member dealers were forbidden from inferring value from when a coin may have been encapsulated.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Not sure when this one was graded however I'm confident it would crossover to CACG at a minimum MS63 submission.
-
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
I don't know. CACG might call it a 62 unless that photo has been photoshopped.
The 1880-S in a 67 holder is a good candidate for them to declare an "obvious" mechanical error.
The NGC guarantee has been revised to do away with the 10-year time limit.
See here: https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/ngc-guarantee/
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yay! Can we get the language in gray at the end of the sentence removed too? If not, the revision may not matter especially in light of the statute of limitations comment made by another poster as relayed on the NGC Forums. It could effect the same policy sub silentio and you've waived your right to litigation and arbitration.
No different then the arbitration clause in your brokerage agreement. An unless you talking a 6 figure claim, legal litigation is a waste of time.
I've never read a brokerage agreement where your remedy is to say "pretty please" and I waive any right to either sue or arbitrate. I would never deal with any brokerage firm with that provision in their contract. This is different from the arbitration clauses that are common in commercial contracts (despite my disdain for them). This says you cannot even arbitrate OR sue. Nothing.
Seems to me if this is a change from some previous "guarantee policy" that it should only apply to anything graded after the new policy. In other words, if I have coin grade 25 years ago and it was covered under a guarantee forever it doesn't make sense that NGC should be able to revoke that and now make it be only for 10 years. Didn't we pay for the original one??
I have had my concerns about NGC for awhile now and mainly use their service(s) for things which PCGS doesn't do, that may change now.. This may now mean they need to change their name:
--- Numismatic non-Guaranty Company, abbreviated NnGC.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
The change to a 10-year time limit for the guarantee (that took effect on June 2’d) was a large part of this thread’s focus. And as I posted a short time ago “The NGC guarantee has been revised to do away with the 10-year time limit.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I had an inclining NGC upon reflection would change their policy.
Glad to see it didn't take tons of time and good to see they did so probably having to swallow their pride.
Guess you do not read all the way down to the bottom of the agreements. Been like this for the past 40 years I've been in the brokerage world. A brokerage firm had gotten into trouble years ago because they included this clause where you certify your TIN # with your signature. Had to separate the W-9 from the arbitration clause. But even if you do not sign for the arbitration clause, if you report to FINRA an issue, they stick you with their arbitration. Not that you cannot sue if you sign otherwise, but their lawyers will say you signed in advance of opening the account.
Yes. That is an arbitration clause that makes you arbitrate RATHER than sue in Court. The NGC guarantee language says you CANNOT even arbitrate. That is a VERY different thing.
I guess, but who can you arbitrate with if you disagree with NGC, bringing it to PCGS or CACG for a final decision. There is no industry body that agrees to 1 set of rules and opinions like brokerage. The FINRA arbitrators are just other B/D folks who have the same background and a need to preserve the industry. Now if an egregious situation occurs because of a bad apple, they will fine and censure the Rep and maybe firm for lack of oversight.
But again, your comparison is not apt. There are limited circumstances, but some do indeed exist, in many jurisdictions for setting aside an arbitration award. With the guarantee you won't even have the option of arbitrating if you want. And if the denial is frivolous, under AAA rules (I'd have to double check JAMS), you can get an award of attorney's fees and costs. For the record, I am not defending arbitration clauses either. I think these are disgusting and meant to shield large corporations from their misdeeds especially with smaller consumers (for lower value cases, litigation in small claims court can be cheaper than arbitration). Those severely restrict consumer rights. But at least it is something.
As for your question, in arbitration you could have expert witnesses who routinely deal with NGC certified coins. Many large dealers or maybe even ex-NGC graders could be retained. Again, it's not an ideal situation. But it is possible to hold their feet to the fire. The testimony would be that NGC on the coin of interest deviated from its normal operating standards based on their expert opinion and experience in handling thousands of NGC coins. There are other angles, but the point of this is not how to pursue a guarantee claim by force when frivolously denied. It is about limiting the onerous language that prevents you from even getting to the door.
One thing to consider is civil arbitration needs to occur in the state where the 'contract' was executed. That would mean going to NGC's home state to file. As I also noted in my 1st response, unless the damages are 6 figure and above, is it really worth going to arbitration if you have to bring in experts to support your case. I would think in most cases of NGC's obvious mistakes, you can recoup most of your losses.
@coastaljerseyguy said
Great. As I said, I would like to see the waiver of litigation and waiver of arbitration language all removed.
Corporations should not hide behind legalese in their guarantees to strip the guarantee of any real teeth. Doing so renders it worthless. If you are hoping a large private equity firm is going to keep its word, you're being naive.
But look at the flip side. Someone bought an Morgan 81-S MS 65 for $175. They look at it and feel it is a 64 worth $100. They send it in and NGC says it qualifies for a 65. The collector disagrees and files an arbitration claim for the $75. Its a nuisance claim. If this was allowed to occur, NGC would probably be charging a lot more for their holdering and guarantee to offset this cost of all these minor arbitration claims. The buyer should know how to grade and accept the consequences of their purchase.
If there was an egregious NGC mistake, believe 99% they make the collector whole. But if there is ongoing over-grading and errors, and they fail to correct, they lose their reputation and business. My last $.02.
Whether it is worthwhile to pursue a claim or not misses the point entirely. The company should not be absolved of its responsibility because it is a small claim. A guaranty company is only as good as its word. And if it is willing to avoid a legitimate claim because it can get away with it (either practically or legally), its word is worthless. And by your logic, those buying more expensive coins (especially 5, 6, or 7 figure coins) should have been even more diligent. if not an expert by that point, they should have retained one. By that logic, what good is NGC? It is completely worthless as I am becoming increasingly aware that most TPG guarantees are.
You again seem fixated on arbitration, but you missed the point entirely. My point was that the sweeping language in the agreement (if upheld) strips any scintilla of a chance you would have any recourse of them regardless of value. That should raise eyebrows in any contract. I'm not defending arbitration or arbitration clauses at all. I think those are also unfair, and any time I have been offered a warranty with an arbitration clause, I don't buy it. It's not worth the paper it is printed on. It is not clear that NGC would always be on the hook for the arbitration fees either. (This isn't like the finance field where the customary practice is for the financial entity to end up on the hook after the consumer pays a small filing fee). And arbitration would only become an issue if NGC made it an issue by including an arbitration clause. Neither party can force a party to arbitrate unless it is written into the contract which NGC draft here. No TPG I am aware of has an arbitration clause (PCGS does not).
And we can debate over coins at the extreme end all day, but a dispute isn't going to arise under a claim that small simply because no one is going to waste their postage and insurance on less than a $100 difference. Even if they honor the guarantee, you are still taking a hit. A prospective submitter would likely just sell those to minimize further loses.
Something needs to be added to the title and 1st post, like, decision reversed or recanted. Page 5.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
P> @leothelyon said:
I’ve made revisions to the title and original post, but I am leaving the thread intact for posterity. There is nothing to suggest as of the date this is posted that the original revisions constituted anything other than a blatant attempt to silently kill off the guarantee retroactively and limit it for new coins. Moreover, the October 29, 2026 revision keeps the language claiming that you waive all rights and legal/equitable claims against them regardless of whether the claims are asserted by lawsuit or through arbitration. That my friend is a warranty with no teeth whatsoever.
Guarantees on grade are only good if they are efficient and timely.
My own experience is that our hosts will take 90 days or so to address the problem and then minimize any monetary compensation. NGC only offered credits on future grading. On a $16K coin that was degraded by their "conservation" 10 plus years ago they offered to meet with me at Baltimore to discuss the coin, and their reps. said they could darken or lighten it if I wanted. I was worn out by the process and did not file a complaint with oversight but blew it out at a $3K loss. The dealer I bought it from told me that now NGC will give me their best possible grades, lol. Apparently they think that dealers are made of money and can absorb considerable losses, for many of us this is a hobby business with minimal profits. When NGC got bought out their business plan changed and I know dealers who just cannot justify their annual fee so lost their dealer accounts. At least our hosts are owned by people who have the hobby in mind.
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All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Wait, they offered to doctor a coin (I.e. darken or lighten it)? How long ago was this? Do they routinely doctor coins? I’m not talking about about a light dip or acetone bath.
Also there is no guarantee on conservation work in most cases. I’m confused.
PCGS also does conservation work on coins. What kind of guarantee do they give?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That's exactly where they want you CONFUSED
Mike
My Indians
Dansco Set
Now that NGC recognizes how poor of a decision it was to impose that 10 year limit, does anyone think the people involved in originating that idea and approving it should have any consequences, regardless of how high it goes? This is right up there with the bone head’s at Budweiser and Cracker Barrel!!! Would you hire any of those specific decision makers at NGC, Budweiser or Cracker Barrel to make important decisions for YOUR company?
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set! Winner of the 2026 PCGS Registry Award for “The Best U.S. Type Set”!
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I give NGC credit for admitting their mistake and revising their ill conceived policy. This policy was probably proposed by one of their lawyers or accountants who are totally clueless concerning coin collecting and coin collectors.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I give NGC credit too for reversing the bone head’s decision, just like Cracker Barrel reversed the decision of the bone heads who made their initial bad decision. But my point is, should the bone heads involved in originating and approving those poor decisions escape with no consequence???
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set! Winner of the 2026 PCGS Registry Award for “The Best U.S. Type Set”!
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
As a minimum, they should be put in PCGS jail for at least a month.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Cruel and unusual...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Will anyone stop buying NGC coins because of this? I suspect that they will experience significant backlash.
Because they made a change and then retracted it? 90% of their customers probably don't even know the change was ever even suggested.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
But did they really? They removed the 10 year language but left the language removing your right to sue or arbitrate. They decide the remedy and I’ve heard from many that is just grading credits. That’s not much of a warranty and the trust has been broken.
This will not stop me from buying NGC but the non-CACed ones are basically now raw coins with a fancy holder. The NGC guarantee is meaningless.
I seriously doubt it. If I see a nice coin that I want in an NGC slab that's fairly priced, I won't hesitate to buy it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire