@logger7 said:
"Right now, the 10-year period can be extended by submitting a collectible for regrade before the Guarantee expires. Well before this date approaches, however, we'll introduce simple mechanisms for collectors and dealers to extend the coverage."
My guess is ante up; the insurance covering the guarantee needs to be fed into due to their increased liability.
"Well before the date approaches" literally means they are telling us this only applies to coins graded from June 2026 forward, given that they already have tens of millions of coins graded more than 10 years ago.
1) The whole retroactive thing should be completely moot. A contract must follow the "mirror image rule", which requires that both parties agree to the express terms. What matters is that you agreed to the contract at the time of submission, not necessarily the current one that NGC has. Therefore, all previous coins graded by NGC follow the old version of the Guarantee and will most likely be upheld by the courts to be guaranteed for the extent that guarantee controls.
2) The NGC guarantee is notably less scary contract-wise than other guarantees in the hobby.
So, should NGC start adding the date it was certified on the label to let collectors know when the 10 years is up?
Members I have done business with: Silverman68, jfoot13, GAB, ricman, Smittys, scrapman1077, RyGuy, Connecticoin, Meltdown, VikingDude, Peaceman, Patches and more.
One of the guarantees I've seen, though I haven't checked recently, is to replace a problem coin with a comparable coin of the same grade, etc.. That assumes they can lay their hands on a suitable replacement which would be complicated for a major tier one service.
@MFeld said:
I emailed Scott Schechter at NGC and asked for clarification regarding the effective date of the 10-year time limit for their guarantee. Here’s his answer that he posted on the NGC forum:
“Mark Feld emailed me asking for clarification on the Guarantee.
The 10-year time limit applies only to collectibles graded on June 2, 2026, or later. It does not apply retroactively.
Right now, the 10-year period can be extended by submitting a collectible for regrade before the Guarantee expires. Well before this date approaches, however, we'll introduce simple mechanisms for collectors and dealers to extend the coverage. I understand the concerns about this change as I am also a collector. In practical terms, its impact will be limited for at least the next decade, and coverage for those graded subsequently can be extended, with some collector-forward innovations forthcoming to enable this.”
I thanked him and let him know that, as written, the revision to the guarantee and the 10-year time limit appears to be retroactive.
Mark,
Thank you for getting and posting clarification!
Autism Awareness: There is no limit to the good you can do, if you don't care who gets the credit.
@MFeld said:
I emailed Scott Schechter at NGC and asked for clarification regarding the effective date of the 10-year time limit for their guarantee. Here’s his answer that he posted on the NGC forum:
“Mark Feld emailed me asking for clarification on the Guarantee.
The 10-year time limit applies only to collectibles graded on June 2, 2026, or later. It does not apply retroactively.
Right now, the 10-year period can be extended by submitting a collectible for regrade before the Guarantee expires. Well before this date approaches, however, we'll introduce simple mechanisms for collectors and dealers to extend the coverage. I understand the concerns about this change as I am also a collector. In practical terms, its impact will be limited for at least the next decade, and coverage for those graded subsequently can be extended, with some collector-forward innovations forthcoming to enable this.”
I thanked him and let him know that, as written, the revision to the guarantee and the 10-year time limit appears to be retroactive.
I don't doubt his word or his sincere belief that is the case, but it is incredible that NGC meant anything other than what the guarantee plainly says. How hard is it to write the "10 years from the later of either the date of grading or June 2,2026?" NGC surely is aware of the backlash and it doesn't take long to update a website. I think they are trying to back peddle to save face. As you know, guarantees and terms of use from TPGs and corporations are always reviewed by corporate attorneys.
Also, regardless of the guarantee 10 year period, the language in the guarantee about waiving all legal claims whether through litigation or arbitration is extremely onerous and enough to undermine the value of the NGC guarantee. That's an extreme position even for a PE firm.
In short, it is too little and far too late. As another poster phrased it, you cannot un-ring that bell.
@SimonW said:
Ancients don’t carry any kind of guarantee with NGC, I don’t think they ever have. I don’t like it, but where else can you go?
I’m sure they’re just following suit, realizing how much money and liability is saved by not guaranteeing.
Guarantee is literally in the name.
They don’t seem to care do they?
No, but I do wonder whether the FTC would care about a guarantee corporation that refuses to honor the guarantee that it advertised.
NGC has never had a real guarantee, not a full one that supports and financially backs up the claim, that’s what PCGS had that nobody else had. For a long time NGC has only been the “NOP” Numismatic Opinion People. (It's convenient that it also sounds like “Nope!)
You mean they’ve been lying to me??!! 😳
They don’t cover any kind of guarantee with ancients, but I was also under the impression that they severely limited their guarantee across the board a few years back to not guarantee the grade, just the authenticity. It looks like I’m wrong though. Happy to be, hopefully they don’t implement the ten year thing.
I have very few NGC coins, so I’m not terribly worried about it, but I do worry about the impact on the hobby.
1) The whole retroactive thing should be completely moot. A contract must follow the "mirror image rule", which requires that both parties agree to the express terms. What matters is that you agreed to the contract at the time of submission, not necessarily the current one that NGC has. Therefore, all previous coins graded by NGC follow the old version of the Guarantee and will most likely be upheld by the courts to be guaranteed for the extent that guarantee controls.
2) The NGC guarantee is notably less scary contract-wise than other guarantees in the hobby.
By that logic some of the older NGC copper coins are still under the guarantee of the time. I'm not sure NGC would agree.
@OwenSeymour said: @MFeld there is nothing in their current posted terms suggesting it is not retroactive.
One of their top execs went on their forum and said it was NOT retroactive:
"...the 10-year time limit applies only to collectibles graded on June 2, 2026, or later. It does not apply retroactively.
Right now, the 10-year period can be extended by submitting a collectible for regrade before the Guarantee expires. Well before this date approaches, however, we'll introduce simple mechanisms for collectors and dealers to extend the coverage. I understand the concerns about this change as I am also a collector. In practical terms, its impact will be limited for at least the next decade, and coverage for those graded subsequently can be extended, with some collector-forward innovations forthcoming to enable this. "
1) The whole retroactive thing should be completely moot. A contract must follow the "mirror image rule", which requires that both parties agree to the express terms. What matters is that you agreed to the contract at the time of submission, not necessarily the current one that NGC has. Therefore, all previous coins graded by NGC follow the old version of the Guarantee and will most likely be upheld by the courts to be guaranteed for the extent that guarantee controls.
There was mutual assent. NGC, if applying it retroactively, would just be thumbing its nose at the contract. It would be ordinary breach of contract case perhaps with a tort element if you can prove certain things factually.
2) The NGC guarantee is notably less scary contract-wise than other guarantees in the hobby.
Usually big corporations hide behind arbitration clauses. The guarantee purports to waive your right to all legal claims (regardless of whether arising under law or equity) through arbitration or litigation. Although I doubt it is enforceable, it essentially means your only real remedy is to show it to NGC and ask pretty please. That is alarming.
As for your argument about the guarantee that you edited, let's assume that we are all experts (doubtful). The perception of a lack of guarantee will hurt resale value in the larger market; thus, the issue affects everyone.
1) The whole retroactive thing should be completely moot. A contract must follow the "mirror image rule", which requires that both parties agree to the express terms. What matters is that you agreed to the contract at the time of submission, not necessarily the current one that NGC has. Therefore, all previous coins graded by NGC follow the old version of the Guarantee and will most likely be upheld by the courts to be guaranteed for the extent that guarantee controls.
There was mutual assent. NGC, if applying it retroactively, would just be thumbing its nose at the contract. It would be ordinary breach of contract case perhaps with a tort element if you can prove certain things factually.
2) The NGC guarantee is notably less scary contract-wise than other guarantees in the hobby.
Usually big corporations hide behind arbitration clauses. The guarantee purports to waive your right to all legal claims (regardless of whether arising under law or equity) through arbitration or litigation. Although I doubt it is enforceable, it essentially means your only real remedy is to show it to NGC and ask pretty please. That is alarming.
As for your argument about the guarantee that you edited, let's assume that we are all experts (doubtful). The perception of a lack of guarantee will hurt resale value in the larger market; thus, the issue affects everyone.
Breach almost certainly.
There is a clause in a major TPG's guarantee (not NGC) that says the following: "This Guarantee does not apply to the Owner of the coin at the time of original submission, including the original submitter’s agent or representative." - effectively, if you submitted the coin, you're out of luck and the Guarantee does not apply to you.
1) The whole retroactive thing should be completely moot. A contract must follow the "mirror image rule", which requires that both parties agree to the express terms. What matters is that you agreed to the contract at the time of submission, not necessarily the current one that NGC has. Therefore, all previous coins graded by NGC follow the old version of the Guarantee and will most likely be upheld by the courts to be guaranteed for the extent that guarantee controls.
2) The NGC guarantee is notably less scary contract-wise than other guarantees in the hobby.
By that logic some of the older NGC copper coins are still under the guarantee of the time. I'm not sure NGC would agree.
That's easy. There was NO guarantee on copper and copper-nickel initially. The guarantee was amended and made more liberal retroactively. Ten years has been the most generous, and those coins definitely are not under the guarantee any more.
The issue is not that a company limits a grading guarantee prospectively for new grading events. That's perfectly legitimate. The argument is that it cannot do so retroactively to undermine what the original submitter bargained for in the submission contract/guarantee at the time it was graded (and who subsequent owners claim as third party beneficiaries). I hope that the information Mark received from a NGC finalizer is accurate. If so, it eliminates much of the controversy. The market and economics will decide whether submitters will tolerate a 10 year guarantee limitation. Only time will tell.
1) The whole retroactive thing should be completely moot. A contract must follow the "mirror image rule", which requires that both parties agree to the express terms. What matters is that you agreed to the contract at the time of submission, not necessarily the current one that NGC has. Therefore, all previous coins graded by NGC follow the old version of the Guarantee and will most likely be upheld by the courts to be guaranteed for the extent that guarantee controls.
There was mutual assent. NGC, if applying it retroactively, would just be thumbing its nose at the contract. It would be ordinary breach of contract case perhaps with a tort element if you can prove certain things factually.
2) The NGC guarantee is notably less scary contract-wise than other guarantees in the hobby.
Usually big corporations hide behind arbitration clauses. The guarantee purports to waive your right to all legal claims (regardless of whether arising under law or equity) through arbitration or litigation. Although I doubt it is enforceable, it essentially means your only real remedy is to show it to NGC and ask pretty please. That is alarming.
As for your argument about the guarantee that you edited, let's assume that we are all experts (doubtful). The perception of a lack of guarantee will hurt resale value in the larger market; thus, the issue affects everyone.
Breach almost certainly.
There is a clause in a major TPG's guarantee (not NGC) that says the following: "This Guarantee does not apply to the Owner of the coin at the time of original submission, including the original submitter’s agent or representative." - effectively, if you submitted the coin, you're out of luck and the Guarantee does not apply to you.
Yes. If you submit a proof 1964 quarter worth slightly more than melt at PF69 and it comes back in a MS slab, you cannot claim for thousands of dollars. Stuff like that use to happen. That's why the mechanical error language was updated. This is more of the same. The guarantee is to protect you from financial harm and not to provide a financial windfall. That's hardly shocking. I also don't find it controversial. The only possible exception might be if you submitted a coin like 10 years ago, reacquired it at a higher cost, and then sustained damages. That would be interesting to see how that plays out.
I honestly don't think the guarantee will matter too much, at least for me. While I agree that it's not great that the NGC guarantee will be void, but I really don't care since an NGC graded coin was (likely) the same compared to the day it was graded to how it is 10+ years after it was graded. Counterfeits exist but as long as you're savvy enough then it doesn't matter unless they just suddenly go mass-market. Not hating on the new NGC change necessarily, but I don't think it's really that big of a roadblock to a typical collector, though that obviously depends entirely on what the NGC guarantee means to an individual. To me, I don't really think about it.
"Another day, another Collectors Universe forum scrolling session."
- Someone, probably
@Goob said:
I honestly don't think the guarantee will matter too much, at least for me. While I agree that it's not great that the NGC guarantee will be void, but I really don't care since an NGC graded coin was (likely) the same compared to the day it was graded to how it is 10+ years after it was graded. Counterfeits exist but as long as you're savvy enough then it doesn't matter unless they just suddenly go mass-market. Not hating on the new NGC change necessarily, but I don't think it's really that big of a roadblock to a typical collector, though that obviously depends entirely on what the NGC guarantee means to an individual. To me, I don't really think about it.
Remember the recent thread about the 1877 IHC in a PCGS OGH MS64 RB that had PF markers? What if that was a dime instead? Would the original submitter be out of luck after 10 years? Not everything is as crystal clear as everyone assumes. The guarantee was never about consensus coins - those for which everyone agrees. It is those where there is a significant element of subjectivity and for grading errors.
@Goob said:
I honestly don't think the guarantee will matter too much, at least for me. While I agree that it's not great that the NGC guarantee will be void, but I really don't care since an NGC graded coin was (likely) the same compared to the day it was graded to how it is 10+ years after it was graded. Counterfeits exist but as long as you're savvy enough then it doesn't matter unless they just suddenly go mass-market. Not hating on the new NGC change necessarily, but I don't think it's really that big of a roadblock to a typical collector, though that obviously depends entirely on what the NGC guarantee means to an individual. To me, I don't really think about it.
Remember the recent thread about the 1877 IHC in a PCGS OGH MS64 RB that had PF markers? What if that was a dime instead? Would the original submitter be out of luck after 10 years? Not everything is as crystal clear as everyone assumes. The guarantee was never about consensus coins - those for which everyone agrees. It is those where there is a significant element of subjectivity and for grading errors.
That's 100% true although while it's less likely now than back then, these errors still happen today! Of course I'm not trying to overrule what you said--it's true, though wouldn't the mechanical/grading errors be in the vast minority?
"Another day, another Collectors Universe forum scrolling session."
- Someone, probably
@Goob said:
I honestly don't think the guarantee will matter too much, at least for me. While I agree that it's not great that the NGC guarantee will be void, but I really don't care since an NGC graded coin was (likely) the same compared to the day it was graded to how it is 10+ years after it was graded. Counterfeits exist but as long as you're savvy enough then it doesn't matter unless they just suddenly go mass-market. Not hating on the new NGC change necessarily, but I don't think it's really that big of a roadblock to a typical collector, though that obviously depends entirely on what the NGC guarantee means to an individual. To me, I don't really think about it.
Remember the recent thread about the 1877 IHC in a PCGS OGH MS64 RB that had PF markers? What if that was a dime instead? Would the original submitter be out of luck after 10 years? Not everything is as crystal clear as everyone assumes. The guarantee was never about consensus coins - those for which everyone agrees. It is those where there is a significant element of subjectivity and for grading errors.
That's 100% true although while it's less likely now than back then, these errors still happen today! Of course I'm not trying to overrule what you said--it's true, though wouldn't the mechanical/grading errors be in the vast minority?
The problems with a retroactive voiding of the guarantee would be two fold: (1) obviously it would leave you without a remedy in a situation where you have a dud piece (unlikely but not 100% impossible with many here) and (2) it affects the market perception of guarantee and chills a willingness of other market participants to bid stronger money knowing there is a guarantee potentially hurting your resale value.
1) The whole retroactive thing should be completely moot. A contract must follow the "mirror image rule", which requires that both parties agree to the express terms. What matters is that you agreed to the contract at the time of submission, not necessarily the current one that NGC has. Therefore, all previous coins graded by NGC follow the old version of the Guarantee and will most likely be upheld by the courts to be guaranteed for the extent that guarantee controls.
2) The NGC guarantee is notably less scary contract-wise than other guarantees in the hobby.
By that logic some of the older NGC copper coins are still under the guarantee of the time. I'm not sure NGC would agree.
That's easy. There was NO guarantee on copper and copper-nickel initially. The guarantee was amended and made more liberal retroactively. Ten years has been the most generous, and those coins definitely are not under the guarantee any more.
Thank you. I was unaware copper was not initially included, but that's also part of the point. How is a collector supposed to know the terms that were in place when a coin was submitted? Any new collector is only going to see the current guarantee and be very unlikely to see an ammendmun posted to an online forum stating that the 10 year limit is not retroactive to June 2, 2026. The way NGC went about this does not instill much confidence in the company.
1) The whole retroactive thing should be completely moot. A contract must follow the "mirror image rule", which requires that both parties agree to the express terms. What matters is that you agreed to the contract at the time of submission, not necessarily the current one that NGC has. Therefore, all previous coins graded by NGC follow the old version of the Guarantee and will most likely be upheld by the courts to be guaranteed for the extent that guarantee controls.
2) The NGC guarantee is notably less scary contract-wise than other guarantees in the hobby.
By that logic some of the older NGC copper coins are still under the guarantee of the time. I'm not sure NGC would agree.
That's easy. There was NO guarantee on copper and copper-nickel initially. The guarantee was amended and made more liberal retroactively. Ten years has been the most generous, and those coins definitely are not under the guarantee any more.
Thank you. I was unaware copper was not initially included, but that's also part of the point. How is a collector supposed to know the terms that were in place when a coin was submitted? Any new collector is only going to see the current guarantee and be very unlikely to see an ammendmun posted to an online forum stating that the 10 year limit is not retroactive to June 2, 2026. The way NGC went about this does not instill much confidence in the company.
I agree with you. You can use the internet sometimes to find older TPG guarantees. Sometimes there are press announcements from the company buried in their websites that can also date changes. Unfortunately there isn't one repository of old TPG guarantees (someone should create one), and it would be on any would be plaintiff to produce the text or obtain other evidence of the agreement to prevail if litigation were to arise.
1) The whole retroactive thing should be completely moot. A contract must follow the "mirror image rule", which requires that both parties agree to the express terms. What matters is that you agreed to the contract at the time of submission, not necessarily the current one that NGC has. Therefore, all previous coins graded by NGC follow the old version of the Guarantee and will most likely be upheld by the courts to be guaranteed for the extent that guarantee controls.
There was mutual assent. NGC, if applying it retroactively, would just be thumbing its nose at the contract. It would be ordinary breach of contract case perhaps with a tort element if you can prove certain things factually.
2) The NGC guarantee is notably less scary contract-wise than other guarantees in the hobby.
Usually big corporations hide behind arbitration clauses. The guarantee purports to waive your right to all legal claims (regardless of whether arising under law or equity) through arbitration or litigation. Although I doubt it is enforceable, it essentially means your only real remedy is to show it to NGC and ask pretty please. That is alarming.
As for your argument about the guarantee that you edited, let's assume that we are all experts (doubtful). The perception of a lack of guarantee will hurt resale value in the larger market; thus, the issue affects everyone.
Breach almost certainly.
There is a clause in a major TPG's guarantee (not NGC) that says the following: "This Guarantee does not apply to the Owner of the coin at the time of original submission, including the original submitter’s agent or representative." - effectively, if you submitted the coin, you're out of luck and the Guarantee does not apply to you.
Yes. If you submit a proof 1964 quarter worth slightly more than melt at PF69 and it comes back in a MS slab, you cannot claim for thousands of dollars. Stuff like that use to happen. That's why the mechanical error language was updated. This is more of the same. The guarantee is to protect you from financial harm and not to provide a financial windfall. That's hardly shocking. I also don't find it controversial. The only possible exception might be if you submitted a coin like 10 years ago, reacquired it at a higher cost, and then sustained damages. That would be interesting to see how that plays out.
This is not a mechanical error clause, that is covered at length elsewhere.
If you submit the coin, you do not have the guarantee at all for that TPG.
1) The whole retroactive thing should be completely moot. A contract must follow the "mirror image rule", which requires that both parties agree to the express terms. What matters is that you agreed to the contract at the time of submission, not necessarily the current one that NGC has. Therefore, all previous coins graded by NGC follow the old version of the Guarantee and will most likely be upheld by the courts to be guaranteed for the extent that guarantee controls.
There was mutual assent. NGC, if applying it retroactively, would just be thumbing its nose at the contract. It would be ordinary breach of contract case perhaps with a tort element if you can prove certain things factually.
2) The NGC guarantee is notably less scary contract-wise than other guarantees in the hobby.
Usually big corporations hide behind arbitration clauses. The guarantee purports to waive your right to all legal claims (regardless of whether arising under law or equity) through arbitration or litigation. Although I doubt it is enforceable, it essentially means your only real remedy is to show it to NGC and ask pretty please. That is alarming.
As for your argument about the guarantee that you edited, let's assume that we are all experts (doubtful). The perception of a lack of guarantee will hurt resale value in the larger market; thus, the issue affects everyone.
Breach almost certainly.
There is a clause in a major TPG's guarantee (not NGC) that says the following: "This Guarantee does not apply to the Owner of the coin at the time of original submission, including the original submitter’s agent or representative." - effectively, if you submitted the coin, you're out of luck and the Guarantee does not apply to you.
Yes. If you submit a proof 1964 quarter worth slightly more than melt at PF69 and it comes back in a MS slab, you cannot claim for thousands of dollars. Stuff like that use to happen. That's why the mechanical error language was updated. This is more of the same. The guarantee is to protect you from financial harm and not to provide a financial windfall. That's hardly shocking. I also don't find it controversial. The only possible exception might be if you submitted a coin like 10 years ago, reacquired it at a higher cost, and then sustained damages. That would be interesting to see how that plays out.
This is not a mechanical error clause, that is covered at length elsewhere.
If you submit the coin, you do not have the guarantee at all for that TPG.
It’s the same principle. If they made an error in that scenario, the only thing you’re out of is the original grading fees and postage/insurance.
No, but the problem is if I consign my lifetime (30+ year) collection to auction, the auction company terms say the TPG has the authenticity liability and the TPG terms say they do not.
Thus, if modern detection methods (AI?) determine one of the coins is now fake or altered, nobody is responsible.
@Goob said:
I honestly don't think the guarantee will matter too much, at least for me. While I agree that it's not great that the NGC guarantee will be void, but I really don't care since an NGC graded coin was (likely) the same compared to the day it was graded to how it is 10+ years after it was graded. Counterfeits exist but as long as you're savvy enough then it doesn't matter unless they just suddenly go mass-market. Not hating on the new NGC change necessarily, but I don't think it's really that big of a roadblock to a typical collector, though that obviously depends entirely on what the NGC guarantee means to an individual. To me, I don't really think about it.
Remember the recent thread about the 1877 IHC in a PCGS OGH MS64 RB that had PF markers? What if that was a dime instead? Would the original submitter be out of luck after 10 years? Not everything is as crystal clear as everyone assumes. The guarantee was never about consensus coins - those for which everyone agrees. It is those where there is a significant element of subjectivity and for grading errors.
The original submitter can't collect on the guarantee anyway.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Goob said:
I honestly don't think the guarantee will matter too much, at least for me. While I agree that it's not great that the NGC guarantee will be void, but I really don't care since an NGC graded coin was (likely) the same compared to the day it was graded to how it is 10+ years after it was graded. Counterfeits exist but as long as you're savvy enough then it doesn't matter unless they just suddenly go mass-market. Not hating on the new NGC change necessarily, but I don't think it's really that big of a roadblock to a typical collector, though that obviously depends entirely on what the NGC guarantee means to an individual. To me, I don't really think about it.
Remember the recent thread about the 1877 IHC in a PCGS OGH MS64 RB that had PF markers? What if that was a dime instead? Would the original submitter be out of luck after 10 years? Not everything is as crystal clear as everyone assumes. The guarantee was never about consensus coins - those for which everyone agrees. It is those where there is a significant element of subjectivity and for grading errors.
The original submitter can't collect on the guarantee anyway.
@WiscKau said:
Confusion rein's here for me. People say one thing and others say the opposite.
So coins graded today do not have a guarantee?
Coins graded after June 2, 2026 have a 10 year guarantee that expires on the anniversary of the grading event. The guarantee language on the NGC website suggests this applies to all NGC coins, even those certified prior to June 2, 2026. At least one NGC employee has taken to the NGC Forums and expressed his understanding that NGC only intended the change to apply to coins certified on or after June 2, 2026.
In short, coins grading before June 2, 2026 are in a state of limbo with conflicting statements from the company. Coins after June 2, 2026 do have a guarantee that expires in 10 years.
@WiscKau said:
Confusion rein's here for me. People say one thing and others say the opposite.
So coins graded today do not have a guarantee?
Coins graded after June 2, 2026 have a 10 year guarantee that expires on the anniversary of the grading event. The guarantee language on the NGC website suggests this applies to all NGC coins, even those certified prior to June 2, 2026. At least one NGC employee has taken to the NGC Forums and expressed his understanding that NGC only intended the change to apply to coins certified on or after June 2, 2026.
In short, coins grading before June 2, 2026 are in a state of limbo with conflicting statements from the company. Coins after June 2, 2026 do have a guarantee that expires in 10 years.
Below are statements from two different NGC employees. However, unless or until the language of the NGC guarantee is edited, it reads as being retroactive.
On the NGC forum:
My post: I emailed Scott Schechter at NGC and asked for clarification regarding the effective date of the 10-year time limit for their guarantee.
Reply
“Mark Feld emailed me asking for clarification on the Guarantee.
The 10-year time limit applies only to collectibles graded on June 2, 2026, or later. It does not apply retroactively.
Right now, the 10-year period can be extended by submitting a collectible for regrade before the Guarantee expires. Well before this date approaches, however, we'll introduce simple mechanisms for collectors and dealers to extend the coverage. I understand the concerns about this change as I am also a collector. In practical terms, its impact will be limited for at least the next decade, and coverage for those graded subsequently can be extended, with some collector-forward innovations forthcoming to enable this.”
I thanked him and let him know that, as written, the revision to the guarantee and the 10-year time limit appears to be retroactive.”
On this forum:
jesbroken Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭ October 27, 2026 8:22AM
If this has already been answered, here is the answer to a request for coin graded warranty previous to this new announcement and it is a new policy for newly graded coins. A copy of their answer is below. FYI.
Jim
Morey B (Certified Collectibles Group)
Oct 27, 2026, 00:18 GMT-12
Hi Jim,
Thank you for raising these concerns. We would like to clarify that the time limit applies to coins graded on June 2, 2026, and later. It does not apply retroactively, although it is important to understand the different jurisdictions have statutes of limitations for warranty claims that would otherwise apply. We will be updating the verbiage of our guarantee to make this distinction clearer in the near future.
If you have any other questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Morey B.
Customer Service Manager
Certified Collectibles Group“
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@WiscKau said:
Confusion rein's here for me. People say one thing and others say the opposite.
So coins graded today do not have a guarantee?
Coins graded after June 2, 2026 have a 10 year guarantee that expires on the anniversary of the grading event. The guarantee language on the NGC website suggests this applies to all NGC coins, even those certified prior to June 2, 2026. At least one NGC employee has taken to the NGC Forums and expressed his understanding that NGC only intended the change to apply to coins certified on or after June 2, 2026.
In short, coins grading before June 2, 2026 are in a state of limbo with conflicting statements from the company. Coins after June 2, 2026 do have a guarantee that expires in 10 years.
Below are statements from two different NGC employees. However, unless or until the language of the NGC guarantee is edited, it reads as being retroactive.
On the NGC forum:
My post: I emailed Scott Schechter at NGC and asked for clarification regarding the effective date of the 10-year time limit for their guarantee.
Reply
“Mark Feld emailed me asking for clarification on the Guarantee.
The 10-year time limit applies only to collectibles graded on June 2, 2026, or later. It does not apply retroactively.
Right now, the 10-year period can be extended by submitting a collectible for regrade before the Guarantee expires. Well before this date approaches, however, we'll introduce simple mechanisms for collectors and dealers to extend the coverage. I understand the concerns about this change as I am also a collector. In practical terms, its impact will be limited for at least the next decade, and coverage for those graded subsequently can be extended, with some collector-forward innovations forthcoming to enable this.”
I thanked him and let him know that, as written, the revision to the guarantee and the 10-year time limit appears to be retroactive.”
On this forum:
jesbroken Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭ October 27, 2026 8:22AM
If this has already been answered, here is the answer to a request for coin graded warranty previous to this new announcement and it is a new policy for newly graded coins. A copy of their answer is below. FYI.
Jim
Morey B (Certified Collectibles Group)
Oct 27, 2026, 00:18 GMT-12
Hi Jim,
Thank you for raising these concerns. We would like to clarify that the time limit applies to coins graded on June 2, 2026, and later. It does not apply retroactively, although it is important to understand the different jurisdictions have statutes of limitations for warranty claims that would otherwise apply. We will be updating the verbiage of our guarantee to make this distinction clearer in the near future.
If you have any other questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Morey B.
Customer Service Manager
Certified Collectibles Group“
Yet they still refuse to update the guarantee on their website despite the obvious confusion it has caused to everyone. It is gross incompetence at best.
@MFeld I also find the statute of limitations comments terrifying to throw in there as it implicitly suggests a willingness to back out of the guarantee (e.g. "we'll only screw you as much as the law allows us to get away with regardless of what we promised in our agreement..."). And to my knowledge, the statute of limitations for breach of contract begins from the date of breach in all 50 states. The time of breach begins when they refuse to honor the guarantee when submitted under the appearance review tier or is otherwise triggered (e.g. regrade). Each time a coin is submitted under the appearance review tier and they refuse to honor it, it could potentially constitute a separate breach.
Edited:
Reading between the lines here, the statute of limitations for an unwritten contract is four years and written contract is five years for monetary damages in Florida (choice of law provision in guarantee). If you are seeking specific performance it drops to one year. And in Florida, the breach begins from the date of breach, not when you discover the full extent of the damage or when consequential losses happens.
Watch them argue that the breach is their announcement regardless of whether you know about it, and try to drag you through months of litigation if you try to sue them. They are still trying to weasel out of the guarantee albeit silently.
In regard to post's original question, I would not expect a mass cross-over on the older holders since they have the guarantee. Going forward, I expect folks who were on the fence whether to use PCGS or NGC will select PCGS or even ANACs.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
In regard to post's original question, I would not expect a mass cross-over on the older holders since they have the guarantee. Going forward, I expect folks who were on the fence whether to use PCGS or NGC will select PCGS or even ANACs.
Have you heard of CACG?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
In regard to post's original question, I would not expect a mass cross-over on the older holders since they have the guarantee. Going forward, I expect folks who were on the fence whether to use PCGS or NGC will select PCGS or even ANACs.
Have you heard of CACG?😉
Poor ANACS can't catch a break.
So does this mean that PCGS is like the new NGC and NGC is like... ICG or even old ANACS before the ownership change?
@coastaljerseyguy said:
In regard to post's original question, I would not expect a mass cross-over on the older holders since they have the guarantee. Going forward, I expect folks who were on the fence whether to use PCGS or NGC will select PCGS or even ANACs.
Have you heard of CACG?😉
Poor ANACS can't catch a break.
So does this mean that PCGS is like the new NGC and NGC is like... ICG or even old ANACS before the ownership change?
Very good update - I’ve been told by an NGC representative that they will be removing the 10-year time limit from their guarantee. And that they hope to have it posted on their site by the end of the week.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
Very good update - I’ve been told by an NGC representative that they will be removing the 10-year time limit from their guarantee. And that they hope to have it posted on their site by the end of the week.
@MFeld said:
Very good update - I’ve been told by an NGC representative that they will be removing the 10-year time limit from their guarantee. And that they hope to have it posted on their site by the end of the week.
Does NGC answer their phone when a customer calls them?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@MFeld said:
Very good update - I’ve been told by an NGC representative that they will be removing the 10-year time limit from their guarantee. And that they hope to have it posted on their site by the end of the week.
Thanks Mark, that’s great news!
And thank you for all your efforts to gather and post the facts for us.
Although from the early tone from some of the posters, I was kinda looking forward to buying coins in fatty holders at blow out raw coin prices 😉
@MFeld said:
Very good update - I’ve been told by an NGC representative that they will be removing the 10-year time limit from their guarantee. And that they hope to have it posted on their site by the end of the week.
Yes! Thank you! There is no doubt that your internal messaging helped point out what should have been obvious to NGC. Hopefully all the TPGs are watching and will never try something like that again.
@MFeld said:
Very good update - I’ve been told by an NGC representative that they will be removing the 10-year time limit from their guarantee. And that they hope to have it posted on their site by the end of the week.
Thanks Mark, that’s great news!
And thank you for all your efforts to gather and post the facts for us.
Although from the early tone from some of the posters, I was kinda looking forward to buying coins in fatty holders at blow out raw coin prices 😉
Honestly I was hoping it was going to be open season. I too had planned to buy up as much as I could with the goal of crossing to PCGS or CACG.
Comments
"Well before the date approaches" literally means they are telling us this only applies to coins graded from June 2026 forward, given that they already have tens of millions of coins graded more than 10 years ago.
A few more notes on this:
1) The whole retroactive thing should be completely moot. A contract must follow the "mirror image rule", which requires that both parties agree to the express terms. What matters is that you agreed to the contract at the time of submission, not necessarily the current one that NGC has. Therefore, all previous coins graded by NGC follow the old version of the Guarantee and will most likely be upheld by the courts to be guaranteed for the extent that guarantee controls.
2) The NGC guarantee is notably less scary contract-wise than other guarantees in the hobby.
Coin Photography
So, should NGC start adding the date it was certified on the label to let collectors know when the 10 years is up?
Silverman68, jfoot13, GAB, ricman, Smittys, scrapman1077, RyGuy, Connecticoin, Meltdown, VikingDude, Peaceman, Patches and more.
One of the guarantees I've seen, though I haven't checked recently, is to replace a problem coin with a comparable coin of the same grade, etc.. That assumes they can lay their hands on a suitable replacement which would be complicated for a major tier one service.
Mark,
Thank you for getting and posting clarification!
That information has recently been added to their online cert verification pages.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don't doubt his word or his sincere belief that is the case, but it is incredible that NGC meant anything other than what the guarantee plainly says. How hard is it to write the "10 years from the later of either the date of grading or June 2,2026?" NGC surely is aware of the backlash and it doesn't take long to update a website. I think they are trying to back peddle to save face. As you know, guarantees and terms of use from TPGs and corporations are always reviewed by corporate attorneys.
Also, regardless of the guarantee 10 year period, the language in the guarantee about waiving all legal claims whether through litigation or arbitration is extremely onerous and enough to undermine the value of the NGC guarantee. That's an extreme position even for a PE firm.
In short, it is too little and far too late. As another poster phrased it, you cannot un-ring that bell.
They don’t cover any kind of guarantee with ancients, but I was also under the impression that they severely limited their guarantee across the board a few years back to not guarantee the grade, just the authenticity. It looks like I’m wrong though. Happy to be, hopefully they don’t implement the ten year thing.
I have very few NGC coins, so I’m not terribly worried about it, but I do worry about the impact on the hobby.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
If I > @FlyingAl said:
By that logic some of the older NGC copper coins are still under the guarantee of the time. I'm not sure NGC would agree.
One of their top execs went on their forum and said it was NOT retroactive:
"...the 10-year time limit applies only to collectibles graded on June 2, 2026, or later. It does not apply retroactively.
Right now, the 10-year period can be extended by submitting a collectible for regrade before the Guarantee expires. Well before this date approaches, however, we'll introduce simple mechanisms for collectors and dealers to extend the coverage. I understand the concerns about this change as I am also a collector. In practical terms, its impact will be limited for at least the next decade, and coverage for those graded subsequently can be extended, with some collector-forward innovations forthcoming to enable this. "
There was mutual assent. NGC, if applying it retroactively, would just be thumbing its nose at the contract. It would be ordinary breach of contract case perhaps with a tort element if you can prove certain things factually.
Usually big corporations hide behind arbitration clauses. The guarantee purports to waive your right to all legal claims (regardless of whether arising under law or equity) through arbitration or litigation. Although I doubt it is enforceable, it essentially means your only real remedy is to show it to NGC and ask pretty please. That is alarming.
As for your argument about the guarantee that you edited, let's assume that we are all experts (doubtful). The perception of a lack of guarantee will hurt resale value in the larger market; thus, the issue affects everyone.
Breach almost certainly.
There is a clause in a major TPG's guarantee (not NGC) that says the following: "This Guarantee does not apply to the Owner of the coin at the time of original submission, including the original submitter’s agent or representative." - effectively, if you submitted the coin, you're out of luck and the Guarantee does not apply to you.
Coin Photography
I understand the concern about a guarantee of authenticity, but how do you guarantee a subjective assessment like grade….
Other passions include golf, Moto Guzzi motorcycles, and Euro motorcycles in general.
Chris
That's easy. There was NO guarantee on copper and copper-nickel initially. The guarantee was amended and made more liberal retroactively. Ten years has been the most generous, and those coins definitely are not under the guarantee any more.
The issue is not that a company limits a grading guarantee prospectively for new grading events. That's perfectly legitimate. The argument is that it cannot do so retroactively to undermine what the original submitter bargained for in the submission contract/guarantee at the time it was graded (and who subsequent owners claim as third party beneficiaries). I hope that the information Mark received from a NGC finalizer is accurate. If so, it eliminates much of the controversy. The market and economics will decide whether submitters will tolerate a 10 year guarantee limitation. Only time will tell.
Happy I decided to only buy PCGS graded coins since starting to collect US coins this year. Will only buy PCGS moving forward as well.
Liberty Seated Half Dollars
(G-04 to F-12)
Yes. If you submit a proof 1964 quarter worth slightly more than melt at PF69 and it comes back in a MS slab, you cannot claim for thousands of dollars. Stuff like that use to happen. That's why the mechanical error language was updated. This is more of the same. The guarantee is to protect you from financial harm and not to provide a financial windfall. That's hardly shocking. I also don't find it controversial. The only possible exception might be if you submitted a coin like 10 years ago, reacquired it at a higher cost, and then sustained damages. That would be interesting to see how that plays out.
I honestly don't think the guarantee will matter too much, at least for me. While I agree that it's not great that the NGC guarantee will be void, but I really don't care since an NGC graded coin was (likely) the same compared to the day it was graded to how it is 10+ years after it was graded. Counterfeits exist but as long as you're savvy enough then it doesn't matter unless they just suddenly go mass-market. Not hating on the new NGC change necessarily, but I don't think it's really that big of a roadblock to a typical collector, though that obviously depends entirely on what the NGC guarantee means to an individual. To me, I don't really think about it.
"Another day, another Collectors Universe forum scrolling session."
- Someone, probably
Remember the recent thread about the 1877 IHC in a PCGS OGH MS64 RB that had PF markers? What if that was a dime instead? Would the original submitter be out of luck after 10 years? Not everything is as crystal clear as everyone assumes. The guarantee was never about consensus coins - those for which everyone agrees. It is those where there is a significant element of subjectivity and for grading errors.
That's 100% true although while it's less likely now than back then, these errors still happen today! Of course I'm not trying to overrule what you said--it's true, though wouldn't the mechanical/grading errors be in the vast minority?
"Another day, another Collectors Universe forum scrolling session."
- Someone, probably
The problems with a retroactive voiding of the guarantee would be two fold: (1) obviously it would leave you without a remedy in a situation where you have a dud piece (unlikely but not 100% impossible with many here) and (2) it affects the market perception of guarantee and chills a willingness of other market participants to bid stronger money knowing there is a guarantee potentially hurting your resale value.
Thank you. I was unaware copper was not initially included, but that's also part of the point. How is a collector supposed to know the terms that were in place when a coin was submitted? Any new collector is only going to see the current guarantee and be very unlikely to see an ammendmun posted to an online forum stating that the 10 year limit is not retroactive to June 2, 2026. The way NGC went about this does not instill much confidence in the company.
I agree with you. You can use the internet sometimes to find older TPG guarantees. Sometimes there are press announcements from the company buried in their websites that can also date changes. Unfortunately there isn't one repository of old TPG guarantees (someone should create one), and it would be on any would be plaintiff to produce the text or obtain other evidence of the agreement to prevail if litigation were to arise.
This is not a mechanical error clause, that is covered at length elsewhere.
If you submit the coin, you do not have the guarantee at all for that TPG.
Coin Photography
It’s the same principle. If they made an error in that scenario, the only thing you’re out of is the original grading fees and postage/insurance.
What is your wager on NGC coin sales with this situation?
No, but the problem is if I consign my lifetime (30+ year) collection to auction, the auction company terms say the TPG has the authenticity liability and the TPG terms say they do not.
Thus, if modern detection methods (AI?) determine one of the coins is now fake or altered, nobody is responsible.
The original submitter can't collect on the guarantee anyway.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
It was a typo. I meant purchaser.
Confusion rein's here for me. People say one thing and others say the opposite.
So coins graded today do not have a guarantee?
Coins graded after June 2, 2026 have a 10 year guarantee that expires on the anniversary of the grading event. The guarantee language on the NGC website suggests this applies to all NGC coins, even those certified prior to June 2, 2026. At least one NGC employee has taken to the NGC Forums and expressed his understanding that NGC only intended the change to apply to coins certified on or after June 2, 2026.
In short, coins grading before June 2, 2026 are in a state of limbo with conflicting statements from the company. Coins after June 2, 2026 do have a guarantee that expires in 10 years.
Below are statements from two different NGC employees. However, unless or until the language of the NGC guarantee is edited, it reads as being retroactive.
On the NGC forum:
My post: I emailed Scott Schechter at NGC and asked for clarification regarding the effective date of the 10-year time limit for their guarantee.
Reply
“Mark Feld emailed me asking for clarification on the Guarantee.
The 10-year time limit applies only to collectibles graded on June 2, 2026, or later. It does not apply retroactively.
Right now, the 10-year period can be extended by submitting a collectible for regrade before the Guarantee expires. Well before this date approaches, however, we'll introduce simple mechanisms for collectors and dealers to extend the coverage. I understand the concerns about this change as I am also a collector. In practical terms, its impact will be limited for at least the next decade, and coverage for those graded subsequently can be extended, with some collector-forward innovations forthcoming to enable this.”
I thanked him and let him know that, as written, the revision to the guarantee and the 10-year time limit appears to be retroactive.”
On this forum:
jesbroken Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭ October 27, 2026 8:22AM
If this has already been answered, here is the answer to a request for coin graded warranty previous to this new announcement and it is a new policy for newly graded coins. A copy of their answer is below. FYI.
Jim
Morey B (Certified Collectibles Group)
Oct 27, 2026, 00:18 GMT-12
Hi Jim,
Thank you for raising these concerns. We would like to clarify that the time limit applies to coins graded on June 2, 2026, and later. It does not apply retroactively, although it is important to understand the different jurisdictions have statutes of limitations for warranty claims that would otherwise apply. We will be updating the verbiage of our guarantee to make this distinction clearer in the near future.
If you have any other questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Morey B.
Customer Service Manager
Certified Collectibles Group“
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This is nothing more than a money grab from Blackstone to squeeze more profit out the company they own.
Expect more nickel and diming from them.
Why did it take me so long to do this?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Yet they still refuse to update the guarantee on their website despite the obvious confusion it has caused to everyone. It is gross incompetence at best.
@MFeld I also find the statute of limitations comments terrifying to throw in there as it implicitly suggests a willingness to back out of the guarantee (e.g. "we'll only screw you as much as the law allows us to get away with regardless of what we promised in our agreement..."). And to my knowledge, the statute of limitations for breach of contract begins from the date of breach in all 50 states. The time of breach begins when they refuse to honor the guarantee when submitted under the appearance review tier or is otherwise triggered (e.g. regrade). Each time a coin is submitted under the appearance review tier and they refuse to honor it, it could potentially constitute a separate breach.
Edited:
Reading between the lines here, the statute of limitations for an unwritten contract is four years and written contract is five years for monetary damages in Florida (choice of law provision in guarantee). If you are seeking specific performance it drops to one year. And in Florida, the breach begins from the date of breach, not when you discover the full extent of the damage or when consequential losses happens.
Watch them argue that the breach is their announcement regardless of whether you know about it, and try to drag you through months of litigation if you try to sue them. They are still trying to weasel out of the guarantee albeit silently.
In regard to post's original question, I would not expect a mass cross-over on the older holders since they have the guarantee. Going forward, I expect folks who were on the fence whether to use PCGS or NGC will select PCGS or even ANACs.
Have you heard of CACG?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Poor ANACS can't catch a break.
So does this mean that PCGS is like the new NGC and NGC is like... ICG or even old ANACS before the ownership change?
I guess the new hierarchy is:
Tier 1: PCGS/CACG
Tier 2 : ANACS
Tier 3: ICG/NGC
"Subprime" Level: Everything else
All I can say is this is very disappointing. Thankfully most all of my coins are PCGS graded.
I’m not going to list tiers, but I don’t think NGC will fall to the extent that you apparently do.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think i would care for a $10k coin. I don't care at all about the guarantee for anything under $1000.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Very good update - I’ve been told by an NGC representative that they will be removing the 10-year time limit from their guarantee. And that they hope to have it posted on their site by the end of the week.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Any update on NGC's search for its soul?
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
This made me laugh out loud! 🤣
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Does NGC answer their phone when a customer calls them?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thanks Mark, that’s great news!
And thank you for all your efforts to gather and post the facts for us.
Although from the early tone from some of the posters, I was kinda looking forward to buying coins in fatty holders at blow out raw coin prices 😉
Yes! Thank you! There is no doubt that your internal messaging helped point out what should have been obvious to NGC. Hopefully all the TPGs are watching and will never try something like that again.
Honestly I was hoping it was going to be open season. I too had planned to buy up as much as I could with the goal of crossing to PCGS or CACG.