A guy setup next to my table at show sent almost a dozen coins to CAC. None stickered. I was astounded, had not seen them but considering the odds ……scratched my head. Wish had asked to see them. Did they go out to auction?
@Cougar1978 said:
I am not a TPG grader so that is not my problem.
A guy setup next to my table at show sent almost a dozen coins to CAC. None stickered. I was astounded, had not seen them but considering the odds ……scratched my head. Wish had asked to see them. Did they go out to auction?
How could you be astounded that none of the coins stickered if you didn’t even see them to know what they looked like? Do you think that CAC automatically stickers a certain % of coins in each order?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I find is impossible to grade heavily toned coins from pictures. They have to be really studied from all angles to try to evaluate the surface conditions and what marks the toning is hiding. In general the industry seems to be OK with toning that hides surface conditions and rewards those coins with higher grades than they would get if the toning was removed.
@Cougar1978 said:
I am not a TPG grader so that is not my problem.
A guy setup next to my table at show sent almost a dozen coins to CAC. None stickered. I was astounded, had not seen them but considering the odds ……scratched my head. Wish had asked to see them. Did they go out to auction?
How could you be astounded that none of the coins stickered if you didn’t even see them to know what they looked like? Do you think that CAC automatically stickers a certain % of coins in each order?
Of course not, but the likelihood of NONE of them stickering is quite low, statistically.
In my experience JA is pretty tough on toned coins of certain series’. Franklins come to mind.
@Cougar1978 said:
I am not a TPG grader so that is not my problem.
A guy setup next to my table at show sent almost a dozen coins to CAC. None stickered. I was astounded, had not seen them but considering the odds ……scratched my head. Wish had asked to see them. Did they go out to auction?
How could you be astounded that none of the coins stickered if you didn’t even see them to know what they looked like? Do you think that CAC automatically stickers a certain % of coins in each order?
Of course not, but the likelihood of NONE of them stickering is quite low, statistically.
In my experience JA is pretty tough on toned coins of certain series’. Franklins come to mind.
I have dealt with two clients who had me walk-through submissions for them at CAC. In both cases I told them that the vast majority of their coins would not sticker, in my opinion only, prior to doing this for them. However, in both cases they insisted I do the walk-through. So, one client went something like two green stickers out of 29-coins and the other went like three green stickers out of nearly 50-coins. The one who submitted 29-coins purchased them all from leading auction houses in the prior couple years and the one who submitted nearly 50-coins purchased them from well-known, specialist dealers who had (and might still have) a reputation for saying CAC was not needed.
So, I agree that statistically if you take a dozen truly random coins and submit them to CAC that you would expect some success, but you also have to consider where and when the coins were purchased, too, as this introduces selection bias or otherwise taints the pool.
I have dealt with two clients who had me walk-through submissions for them at CAC. In both cases I told them that the vast majority of their coins would not sticker, in my opinion only, prior to doing this for them. However, in both cases they insisted I do the walk-through. So, one client went something like two green stickers out of 29-coins and the other went like three green stickers out of nearly 50-coins.
What did you think would be the biggest reason the almost 74 coins would not sticker?
For the 29-coin submission it was absolutely over-grading, but for the nearly 50-coin submission it was surfaces that had been previously altered and I could see that before CAC took a look at them.
The bulk of my CAC fails are not due to grading but spots, abrasions, cleaning/hairlines, PVC, or not meeting a designation (cent not red enough or turning brown, mirrors not deep enough).
@TomB said:
For the 29-coin submission it was absolutely over-grading...
"The one who submitted 29-coins purchased them all from leading auction houses in the prior couple years."
That's sobering, an argument for having a trusted, knowledgeable person preview coins for you.
@TomB said:
For the 29-coin submission it was absolutely over-grading...
"The one who submitted 29-coins purchased them all from leading auction houses in the prior couple years."
That's sobering, an argument for having a trusted, knowledgeable person preview coins for you.
If you are relying on auction staff to have you find unstickered coins that you can then send to CAC for a bean, you will be disappointed.
@ProofCollection said:
The bulk of my CAC fails are not due to grading but spots, abrasions, cleaning/hairlines, VPC, or not meeting a designation (cent not red enough or turning brown, mirrors not deep enough).
What is VPC?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I know it sounds statistically impossible to send 79 PCGS/NGC coins and only get 5 stickers (6%), but I think you need to look at the buyers business model. If they're bargain hunters who feel they are successful because they get coins at or below wholesale market prices, I'd place my bet their coins won't sticker and will come out a winner 94% of the time.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
I know it sounds statistically impossible to send 79 PCGS/NGC coins and only get 5 stickers (6%), but I think you need to look at the buyers business model. If they're bargain hunters who feel they are successful because they get coins at or below wholesale market prices, I'd place my bet their coins won't sticker and will come out a winner 94% of the time.
Exactly. There are plenty of collectors that self-select their entire collection into "C" coins because they are more concerned with getting a "deal" relative to price guides than in understanding/buying nice coins.
Superb collections are built more by omission than by addition.
@ProofCollection . I hope your statement is wrong. My collection will be sold off by Great Collections and I have one group of about 15 coins I am hoping they will submit to CAC, (and or tell me in advance if they are worth being looked at.) James
@P0CKETCHANGE said:
Eye appeal is an inherent component of grading. CAC may lean towards the technicals, but they do not ignore eye appeal and have explicitly rejected coins for it.
Here's indisputable proof that CAC rejects coins for eye appeal. Just back from CAC today. Both technical 67s.
Superb collections are built more by omission than by addition.
The black discoloration is the color of silver sulfide. Not for me. I would unload it from my holdings wondering what was going on in my head when I acquired it. Might benefit from a pro level bright dip.
I would add that I think the piece is undeserving of a CAC sticker. I would peel the sticker off and save. Crack and treat coin with a favorite brand of bright dip. DOUBLE rinse in distilled water and allow to thoroughly dry on a soft cloth. NO RUBBING. This piece will be much easier to get rid off if bright,not toned ugly like it is now.
@Cougar1978 said:
I am not a TPG grader so that is not my problem.
A guy setup next to my table at show sent almost a dozen coins to CAC. None stickered. I was astounded, had not seen them but considering the odds ……scratched my head. Wish had asked to see them. Did they go out to auction?
Might be a concerted effort at CAC headquarters to not be handing out green beans like they're candy. The beans have been a good thing for the slabbed coin market. Let's not screw it up.
@P0CKETCHANGE said:
Eye appeal is an inherent component of grading. CAC may lean towards the technicals, but they do not ignore eye appeal and have explicitly rejected coins for it.
Here's indisputable proof that CAC rejects coins for eye appeal. Just back from CAC today. Both technical 67s.
>
Is it accurate to say that, above a certain grade (MS63 or so) eye appeal DOES figure into the grade. That was my understanding.
@ms71 said:
Looks like it spent a few months folded in carbon paper. (Only those of us of advanced age even remember carbon paper).
Interesting thought. Acetone dip might be tried before a bright dipping. If acetone doesn't remove the black, no harm has been done to the piece, at the least.
My thoughts on the matter. I assume the coins that are getting stickered nowadays are those that the submitter wants the coin to remain in the holder for one reason or another. Most of what I submit are old holders. If you’re buying old holders, currently, especially from auction houses or eBay, there’s a huge probability it’s already been to CAC.
Looks like it came straight out of an original mint set cardboard holder. I've had several 55 mint sets that the quarters and halves looked to have identical toning.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Comments
I am not a TPG grader so that is not my problem.
A guy setup next to my table at show sent almost a dozen coins to CAC. None stickered. I was astounded, had not seen them but considering the odds ……scratched my head. Wish had asked to see them. Did they go out to auction?
How could you be astounded that none of the coins stickered if you didn’t even see them to know what they looked like? Do you think that CAC automatically stickers a certain % of coins in each order?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I find is impossible to grade heavily toned coins from pictures. They have to be really studied from all angles to try to evaluate the surface conditions and what marks the toning is hiding. In general the industry seems to be OK with toning that hides surface conditions and rewards those coins with higher grades than they would get if the toning was removed.
Unpopular opinion apparently, I don’t mind them. I’ll happily buy CAC’ed franklins (ideally in older holders) that have that kind of toning.
Of course not, but the likelihood of NONE of them stickering is quite low, statistically.
In my experience JA is pretty tough on toned coins of certain series’. Franklins come to mind.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I would like it with if it has blazing luster. I am thinking the pic is not very flattering.
I have dealt with two clients who had me walk-through submissions for them at CAC. In both cases I told them that the vast majority of their coins would not sticker, in my opinion only, prior to doing this for them. However, in both cases they insisted I do the walk-through. So, one client went something like two green stickers out of 29-coins and the other went like three green stickers out of nearly 50-coins. The one who submitted 29-coins purchased them all from leading auction houses in the prior couple years and the one who submitted nearly 50-coins purchased them from well-known, specialist dealers who had (and might still have) a reputation for saying CAC was not needed.
So, I agree that statistically if you take a dozen truly random coins and submit them to CAC that you would expect some success, but you also have to consider where and when the coins were purchased, too, as this introduces selection bias or otherwise taints the pool.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
What did you think would be the biggest reason the almost 74 coins would not sticker?
For the 29-coin submission it was absolutely over-grading, but for the nearly 50-coin submission it was surfaces that had been previously altered and I could see that before CAC took a look at them.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The bulk of my CAC fails are not due to grading but spots, abrasions, cleaning/hairlines, PVC, or not meeting a designation (cent not red enough or turning brown, mirrors not deep enough).
"The one who submitted 29-coins purchased them all from leading auction houses in the prior couple years."
That's sobering, an argument for having a trusted, knowledgeable person preview coins for you.
If you are relying on auction staff to have you find unstickered coins that you can then send to CAC for a bean, you will be disappointed.
What is VPC?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I know it sounds statistically impossible to send 79 PCGS/NGC coins and only get 5 stickers (6%), but I think you need to look at the buyers business model. If they're bargain hunters who feel they are successful because they get coins at or below wholesale market prices, I'd place my bet their coins won't sticker and will come out a winner 94% of the time.
PVC, with a typo.
Superb collections are built more by omission than by addition.
Exactly. There are plenty of collectors that self-select their entire collection into "C" coins because they are more concerned with getting a "deal" relative to price guides than in understanding/buying nice coins.
Superb collections are built more by omission than by addition.
@ProofCollection . I hope your statement is wrong. My collection will be sold off by Great Collections and I have one group of about 15 coins I am hoping they will submit to CAC, (and or tell me in advance if they are worth being looked at.) James
Here's indisputable proof that CAC rejects coins for eye appeal. Just back from CAC today. Both technical 67s.
Superb collections are built more by omission than by addition.
The black discoloration is the color of silver sulfide. Not for me. I would unload it from my holdings wondering what was going on in my head when I acquired it. Might benefit from a pro level bright dip.
I would add that I think the piece is undeserving of a CAC sticker. I would peel the sticker off and save. Crack and treat coin with a favorite brand of bright dip. DOUBLE rinse in distilled water and allow to thoroughly dry on a soft cloth. NO RUBBING. This piece will be much easier to get rid off if bright,not toned ugly like it is now.
I don’t think it’s attractive. But if that CAC sticker makes a collector feel safe and that PCGS holder gives him warm fuzzies, I’m happy.
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody and be perfect !
Might be a concerted effort at CAC headquarters to not be handing out green beans like they're candy. The beans have been a good thing for the slabbed coin market. Let's not screw it up.
A Franklin doesn't have to be stunning or even attractive to grade 65. Perhaps it's otherwise a 66 that got dinged a point for negative eye appeal.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
>
Is it accurate to say that, above a certain grade (MS63 or so) eye appeal DOES figure into the grade. That was my understanding.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Interesting thought. Acetone dip might be tried before a bright dipping. If acetone doesn't remove the black, no harm has been done to the piece, at the least.
I suspect it’s a factor at every grade level to some extent, with increasing importance as you move up the Sheldon scale.
Superb collections are built more by omission than by addition.
My thoughts on the matter. I assume the coins that are getting stickered nowadays are those that the submitter wants the coin to remain in the holder for one reason or another. Most of what I submit are old holders. If you’re buying old holders, currently, especially from auction houses or eBay, there’s a huge probability it’s already been to CAC.
Fresh to the market, good idea to send them in.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Looks like it came straight out of an original mint set cardboard holder. I've had several 55 mint sets that the quarters and halves looked to have identical toning.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain