Since the inception of CACG, have other TPGs tightened their grading?
Since the inception of CACG, have other TPGs tightened their grading?
Comments
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Yes.
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It’s hard to say for sure. Grading can vary by TPG and coin series, so I’m not sure it’s directly related to CACG.
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Maybe subconsciously.
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not all of them.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
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I don't think so. Grading has been consistent from PCGS and NGC. I can't imaging PCGS having an executive meeting with all the graders to say "our business is at risk, now we need to grade harsh to compete with CACG!"
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #16068 -
Would be nice to see customer service tighten up.
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If that’s Skip Fazaris actual finger print, I’d be proud to own it.
@privatecoin said:
not all of them.8 -
I don’t know how that generalization could be really verified.
Investor0 -
One could look pre and post at the distribution of grades for major series. It wouldn’t be proof due to outside factors, but would be directionally interesting.
Casual collector: Morgans & Peace Dollars & 20th Century Type Set. Successful BST transactions with ProofCollection, Morgan13, CoinFinder, CoinHunter4, Bretsan.
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@jacrispies said:
I don't think so. Grading has been consistent from PCGS and NGC. I can't imaging PCGS having an executive meeting with all the graders to say "our business is at risk, now we need to grade harsh to compete with CACG!"There was and is plenty of room for PCGS and NGC to tighten up without grading harshly.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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@MFeld said:
@jacrispies said:
I don't think so. Grading has been consistent from PCGS and NGC. I can't imaging PCGS having an executive meeting with all the graders to say "our business is at risk, now we need to grade harsh to compete with CACG!"There was and is plenty of room for PCGS and NGC to tighten up without grading harshly.
Fill in any adjective you would like.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #16064 -
No, same dartboard market grading as usual.
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I can't see how anyone; except an indivdual with access to thousands of coins, both pre CACG and post , could make such a determination. James
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we need to remind ourselves that grading is an opinion, not yet a science.
Brian2 -
@jayPem said:
If that’s Skip Fazaris actual finger print, I’d be proud to own it.@privatecoin said:
not all of them.Why the heck is it blue?
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If there weren’t consistency in grading then, I don’t see how another company would affect their inability now.
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@jayPem said:
If that’s Skip Fazaris actual finger print, I’d be proud to own it.We should message him and ask. I think he posts on Coin Talk.
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@cameonut2011 said:
@jayPem said:
If that’s Skip Fazaris actual finger print, I’d be proud to own it.We should message him and ask. I think he posts on Coin Talk.
They're getting a lot more "guarantee" submissions with the PCGS and NGC graders hired; so when that happens, they are a lot more cautious on their grading.
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I don’t know if they need to. It seems like PCS is very busy. I called customer service at 7 AM and they were already full for the day. Of course that could be for a lot of reasons I do however appreciate what CAC is doing.
The court jester does not play, but gently pulls the strings…
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NO All major grading services still don't know how to grade certain series and are way too lenient like 3 cent silvers and standing liberty quarters.
Have a good day, Gary1 -
@cameonut2011 said:
Since the inception of CACG, have other TPGs tightened their grading?Nope, really not at all in my experience.
Official PCGS account of:
www.TallahasseeCoinClub.com
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That was my first thought but maybe I was a little desperate on that last submission.
I may post some images later if I can bring myself to do so...One way to find out is to crack and submit the same coin to both, a few times and then take the average.
edit: this won't work time has passed.One thing is for sure they grade moderns a lot faster:
4 separate orders shipped together. The moderns shipped back within 6 weeks and 2 months later the other 3 orders, one is entered, one is grading, and the last on the way back.One more rant...I'll save it.
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@Oney said:
we need to remind ourselves that grading is an opinion, not yet a science.We also need to remind ourselves gravity is a theory and isn't science.
Still, when I drop something it is likely to head downward.
Same with PCGS. If they grade something it is likely to be the correct grade.0 -
When I receive coins with grades and designations equal to or better than what I thought each coin would receive, our host is grading coins just right.
When I receive coins with grades and designations less than what I thought each coin would receive, our host is grading way too strictly/harshly.
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If a coin transaction resulted in a lawsuit where one party claims the other party committed fraud by misrepresenting the condition of and value of one or more coins graded by a TPG (aka, a misrepresentation of a FACT) and the case went to trial in front of a judge or a jury (who know nothing about numismatics), it would be very difficult to persuade the judge or jury that there is a misrepresentation of a FACT (required in a fraud case) because at its core, coin grading is simply a matter of a subjective OPINION of a coin's condition as of a certain date and time rendered by one coin grader, or two coin graders and a grade finalizer.
If the claimed fraud it that a coin in well worn condition (i.e. VG8) was represented as a gem UNC (i.e. MS65) then I could see a judge or jury concluding there was a misrepresentation of a FACT (clearly a coin in a VG8 condition is objectively not a gem UNC). However if the coin is in a third world slab graded MS66 but if graded by our host it would be an MS63 (with the value difference between a 63 and a 66 being thousands of dollars) I could see a judge or a jury concluding there was no misrepresentation of a FACT because the grades of MS63 and MS66 are merely subjective OPINIONS.
It would not surprise me to learn that there are one or more court cases involving coins that have taken place where the foundation of coin grading is explained and conceded to be based upon Opinions regarding the condition of a coin or coins.
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I recently had a bit of anecdata relating to this. I had purchased a collection of coins that were bought/graded in 2016/17. so about 10 years ago. Mostly PCGS, mostly bought from DLRC. They were cracked out for someone's type album.
I resubmitted these 17 coins and results were:
1 upgraded
3 remained the same
3 came back details
10 downgraded (8 by 1, 1 by 2 , 1 by 3)Interestingly one of the details coins was previously in a NGC + CAC holder.
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I would agree that I doubt there would have been a conscious decision to "lift their game".
- It would imply that all their earlier grading, up until that point, was somehow deficient.
- It would create a de-facto admission of gradeflation having already occurred over the history of PCGS and NGC.
- It would more-or-less officially create a two-tier grading system within each TPG - in effect, you would have "old" and "new" versions of each.@bru said:
I recently had a bit of anecdata relating to this. I had purchased a collection of coins that were bought/graded in 2016/17. so about 10 years ago. Mostly PCGS, mostly bought from DLRC. They were cracked out for someone's type album.I resubmitted these 17 coins and results were:
1 upgraded
3 remained the same
3 came back details
10 downgraded (8 by 1, 1 by 2 , 1 by 3)Interestingly one of the details coins was previously in a NGC + CAC holder.
I would think that "cracked out and sitting for 10 years in a type album" would be a perfectly valid explanation for deterioration. It would depend entirely on how carefully the cracking-out happened, and how the coins were handled and stored in the interim.
Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded the DPOTD twice.
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Well, there you go.
So coins graded 20 or 30 years ago were graded more strictly evidenced by the older holders. Then there was this period of years when grading standards/opinions were more relaxed evidenced by loads of images in Coin facts.
And now, grading opinions have tightened up again allegedly because the new kid on the Block is setting the new standard.
Well, of course, we knew this was gonna happen when they went live being that their reputation in fact their complete business model is based on assessing grades on a higher level or if you’re old fart accurately.0 -
@SanctionII said:
If a coin transaction resulted in a lawsuit where one party claims the other party committed fraud by misrepresenting the condition of and value of one or more coins graded by a TPG (aka, a misrepresentation of a FACT) and the case went to trial in front of a judge or a jury (who know nothing about numismatics), it would be very difficult to persuade the judge or jury that there is a misrepresentation of a FACT (required in a fraud case) because at its core, coin grading is simply a matter of a subjective OPINION of a coin's condition as of a certain date and time rendered by one coin grader, or two coin graders and a grade finalizer.If the claimed fraud it that a coin in well worn condition (i.e. VG8) was represented as a gem UNC (i.e. MS65) then I could see a judge or jury concluding there was a misrepresentation of a FACT (clearly a coin in a VG8 condition is objectively not a gem UNC). However if the coin is in a third world slab graded MS66 but if graded by our host it would be an MS63 (with the value difference between a 63 and a 66 being thousands of dollars) I could see a judge or a jury concluding there was no misrepresentation of a FACT because the grades of MS63 and MS66 are merely subjective OPINIONS.
It would not surprise me to learn that there are one or more court cases involving coins that have taken place where the foundation of coin grading is explained and conceded to be based upon Opinions regarding the condition of a coin or coins.
There would also potentially be the issue of whether the coin changed in the holder particularly for copper. I could also see some one arguing the slab is not air tight and the garish toning developed after encapsulation, etc.
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How about just looking at the coins and appreciating them for what they are, and not what's on the label?
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@MasonG said:
How about just looking at the coins and appreciating them for what they are, and not what's on the label?That’s heresy.
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@Coinscratch said:
Well, there you go.
So coins graded 20 or 30 years ago were graded more strictly evidenced by the older holders. Then there was this period of years when grading standards/opinions were more relaxed evidenced by loads of images in Coin facts.
And now, grading opinions have tightened up again allegedly because the new kid on the Block is setting the new standard.
Well, of course, we knew this was gonna happen when they went live being that their reputation in fact their complete business model is based on assessing grades on a higher level or if you’re old fart accurately.Makes me nervous to submit a MS66+ Franklin for reconsideration.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
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@privatecoin said:
@Coinscratch said:
Well, there you go.
So coins graded 20 or 30 years ago were graded more strictly evidenced by the older holders. Then there was this period of years when grading standards/opinions were more relaxed evidenced by loads of images in Coin facts.
And now, grading opinions have tightened up again allegedly because the new kid on the Block is setting the new standard.
Well, of course, we knew this was gonna happen when they went live being that their reputation in fact their complete business model is based on assessing grades on a higher level or if you’re old fart accurately.Makes me nervous to submit a MS66+ Franklin for reconsideration.
You might lose a half a point but at the same time you might get FBL.
I know that coin was pretty close.1 -
If they have, they are not letting on. For me it’s the quality of the coins and the deal. I have a number of CACG coins many witter brick that trade for a premium. But lots PCGS, NGC, plus some ICG, Anacs.
Investor0 -
@Cougar1978 said:
I have a number of CACG coins many witter brick that trade for a premium. But lots PCGS, NGC, plus some ICG, Anacs.If the coin was truly desirable, I’d require a discount and I’d then reholder any coin in a Witter Brick holder.
Seated Half Society member #38
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."4 -
If true, then those individuals in the few years prior to CACG that bought graded coins by looking at the label and not the coin may have reason to be concerned. Hopefully that’s not the case.
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@jacrispies said:
@MFeld said:
@jacrispies said:
I don't think so. Grading has been consistent from PCGS and NGC. I can't imaging PCGS having an executive meeting with all the graders to say "our business is at risk, now we need to grade harsh to compete with CACG!"There was and is plenty of room for PCGS and NGC to tighten up without grading harshly.
Fill in any adjective you would like.
Adverb
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@jmlanzaf said:
@jacrispies said:
@MFeld said:
@jacrispies said:
I don't think so. Grading has been consistent from PCGS and NGC. I can't imaging PCGS having an executive meeting with all the graders to say "our business is at risk, now we need to grade harsh to compete with CACG!"There was and is plenty of room for PCGS and NGC to tighten up without grading harshly.
Fill in any adjective you would like.
Adverb
Sorry, “adverb” is a noun.
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Most definitively yes. As I make over 100 submissions a year to PCGS, there was a definitive change that happened after CACG came online. As noted above, it's highly subjective and immeasurable, but I have lots of anecdotal evidence including several PCGS coins that I thought were solid for the grade and eligible for an upgrade that I cracked out only to have PCGS downgrade them by a point (otherwise I would have done a regrade to avoid that possibility). This thread is additional evidence: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/14154925
And additionally, I believe it was the Cabbage Coins video podcast where they've also sent recently graded PCGS coins to CAC for gold beans. Yes, those could be aberrations but the also confirm what I've personally observed.For NGC, I do not grade things with them often but the few things I sent to them came back lower than I think they would have graded in the past.
One more piece of evidence. I have sent several CAC stickered NGC coins to PCGS for crossover and been denied on many.
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@Ronsanderson said:
@jmlanzaf said:
@jacrispies said:
@MFeld said:
@jacrispies said:
I don't think so. Grading has been consistent from PCGS and NGC. I can't imaging PCGS having an executive meeting with all the graders to say "our business is at risk, now we need to grade harsh to compete with CACG!"There was and is plenty of room for PCGS and NGC to tighten up without grading harshly.
Fill in any adjective you would like.
Adverb
Sorry, “adverb” is a noun.
^^correct^^
"Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein-Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.
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@RedRocket said
We also need to remind ourselves gravity is a theory and isn't science.
Still, when I drop something it is likely to head downward.
Same with PCGS. If they grade something it is likely to be the correct grade.It is the opinion of PCGS. No matter how close we are to a science, grading will always be subjective
Brian0 -
@ProofCollection said:
Most definitively yes. As I make over 100 submissions a year to PCGS, there was a definitive change that happened after CACG came online. As noted above, it's highly subjective and immeasurable, but I have lots of anecdotal evidence including several PCGS coins that I thought were solid for the grade and eligible for an upgrade that I cracked out only to have PCGS downgrade them by a point (otherwise I would have done a regrade to avoid that possibility). This thread is additional evidence: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/14154925
And additionally, I believe it was the Cabbage Coins video podcast where they've also sent recently graded PCGS coins to CAC for gold beans. Yes, those could be aberrations but the also confirm what I've personally observed.For NGC, I do not grade things with them often but the few things I sent to them came back lower than I think they would have graded in the past.
One more piece of evidence. I have sent several CAC stickered NGC coins to PCGS for crossover and been denied on many.
I only submit 4 or 5 times per year and felt the difference so your numbers only reinforce my belief.
It isn’t rocket science, if your kingdom was built on the highest standards and then a competitor shows up with even higher standards then this should be your first adjustment.
Not saying that the upper level ever lowered the standards but somewhere down the line things were getting too laxed.
Anyway, good on them and in time the values will rise again and the two will be equals only separated by size.
Of course now then the finites will come into play, submission times, quality of images, price, and individual preference.0 -
@Ronsanderson said:
@jmlanzaf said:
@jacrispies said:
@MFeld said:
@jacrispies said:
I don't think so. Grading has been consistent from PCGS and NGC. I can't imaging PCGS having an executive meeting with all the graders to say "our business is at risk, now we need to grade harsh to compete with CACG!"There was and is plenty of room for PCGS and NGC to tighten up without grading harshly.
Fill in any adjective you would like.
Adverb
Sorry, “adverb” is a noun.
I know you're joking, but:
"Fill in any ADVERB you would like.""Harshly" is an adverb not an adjective.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
0 -
@mr1931S said:
@Ronsanderson said:
@jmlanzaf said:
@jacrispies said:
@MFeld said:
@jacrispies said:
I don't think so. Grading has been consistent from PCGS and NGC. I can't imaging PCGS having an executive meeting with all the graders to say "our business is at risk, now we need to grade harsh to compete with CACG!"There was and is plenty of room for PCGS and NGC to tighten up without grading harshly.
Fill in any adjective you would like.
Adverb
Sorry, “adverb” is a noun.
^^correct^^
He was joking.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@Oney said:
@RedRocket said
We also need to remind ourselves gravity is a theory and isn't science.
Still, when I drop something it is likely to head downward.
Same with PCGS. If they grade something it is likely to be the correct grade.It is the opinion of PCGS. No matter how close we are to a science, grading will always be subjective
Yet when we grade our on coins we’re quick to assert a grade.
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I agree that grading is an opinion an opinion based on facts and the facts keep changing.
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@Coinscratch said:
I agree that grading is an opinion an opinion based on facts and the facts keep changing.The “facts” (condition) of the coins rarely change. But the assessments of their condition aren’t based on clearly defined, objective standards.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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@MFeld said:
@Coinscratch said:
I agree that grading is an opinion an opinion based on facts and the facts keep changing.The “facts” (condition) of the coins rarely change. But the assessments of their condition aren’t based on clearly defined, objective standards.
I agree. That was only an opinion. 😛
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@MFeld said:
@Coinscratch said:
I agree that grading is an opinion an opinion based on facts and the facts keep changing.The “facts” (condition) of the coins rarely change. But the assessments of their condition aren’t based on clearly defined, objective standards.
Sometimes it seems as if they make it up as they go.
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I've almost always seen the reason behind a given grade. We don't hear about the grading companies and their warranty or guarantee submissions much but that sends a message if a company is giving out grades that are too far off. They used to publish how much they've paid out on warranties, but that's missing from their statistics page now: https://www.pcgs.com/statistics You're not going to hear about what's actually going on with the services on warranties paid out or claims not paid out due to NDAs.
0
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