I would like to see some statistics eventually on program parameters, giving buyers and sellers a chance to make evaluation, on an ongoing basis, of how well the ebay/PCGS program is performing.
@mr1931S said:
I would like to see some statistics eventually on program parameters, giving buyers and sellers a chance to make evaluation, on an ongoing basis, of how well the ebay/PCGS program is performing.
@jmlanzaf said:
You want to raise fees. SURE YOU DO. You don't even want them to open your Coin World holder to authenticate and then you wanted a 10% restocking fee if your coin ends up being fake. But you're ask in favor of LITERALLY DOUBLING the fees.
At least be consistent with your trolling.
Er, why should he/she be consistent in their 'trolling' when you are not?
Yes I would like to see the numbers for the ebay/PCGS authentication program and share my findings after subjecting said numbers to analysis. Anyone got any ideas on what parameters might be interesting to look at? The two main groups are raw coins and third-party graded coins, of course.
How many raw coins did the authenticaters inspect? How many of the raw coins inspected got the nod of approval? What are the percentages by denomination of raw coins getting approved for sending to buyer? These are just a few numbers to look at and analyze for raw coins valued by sellers at $500 or more.
@mr1931S said:
Yes I would like to see the numbers for the ebay/PCGS authentication program and share my findings after subjecting said numbers to analysis.
Well, if you really want to see them, here are the numbers for your analysis:
I'm guessing a major benefit of this eBay authentication program is that most of the scammers will just stop knowingly peddling their fake coins on eBay.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@mr1931S said:
Yes I would like to see the numbers for the ebay/PCGS authentication program and share my findings after subjecting said numbers to analysis.
Well, if you really want to see them, here are the numbers for your analysis:
Ikey, Dr. Lori doesn't have the expertise in mathematics that I do. Mathematics was my minor in college. I have enough earned college credits to actually be a teacher of high school level math. I went to some effort to be a teacher after my career in television boadcasting was over. I did file my fingerprints with the Colorado Bureau of Investigation but failed to get a high enough score on the Praxis test for math. I scored 142 on said test but the minimum score needed was 156 which is the Colorado standard, the highest of all states in the nation. I could have gone to Arkansas to teach. Arkansas standard for score to pass the Praxis test was 116 at the time. I communicated by email a bit with a HS math teacher in Colorado and in light of his remarks about teaching kids in today's world, i consider that it's a blessing in disguise that I didn't make it as a teacher in Colorado.
I know. My story about being a math teacher is neither here nor there. I just wanted to establish that I do have ample math skills to do an analysis of ebay/PCGS authentication program statistics that will blow your socks off. You will be going, "Tell me more! Tell me more!"
@mr1931S said:
Yes I would like to see the numbers for the ebay/PCGS authentication program and share my findings after subjecting said numbers to analysis.
Well, if you really want to see them, here are the numbers for your analysis:
You Just need a quick apology to @dcarr and you're all good.)
Apology for accidently angering him by stating my opinion on intentionally burned coins or for causing him to question my understanding of the coin market by not buying 4000 tools of cents? 🤣
You Just need a quick apology to @dcarr and you're all good.)
Apology for accidently angering him by stating my opinion on intentionally burned coins or for causing him to question my understanding of the coin market by not buying 4000 tools of cents? 🤣
Yes. Exactly that.
C'mon out with the truth. You guys are brothers, aren't you?
I browsed some of the card forums. For raw cards the authenticator seems to be 1) checking that the card is real 2) ensuring that it matches the listing description. For example if someone listed a raw card as near mint, but the authenticator noticed a crease or impairment that would place the card below the listed grade, it would fail authentication. The buyer would be told about the issue and given the option to either proceed with or cancel the sale.
I am curious if/how this would apply to coins. If a raw coin that has been cleaned is sold without any mention of it, could the authenticator fail the coin for the cleaning?
@mr1931S said:
Yes I would like to see the numbers for the ebay/PCGS authentication program and share my findings after subjecting said numbers to analysis.
Well, if you really want to see them, here are the numbers for your analysis:
You will be going, "Tell me more! Tell me more!"
Tell me less. Tell me less.
IkesT understands some things you will never know because you have an over-abundance, a plethora if you will, of chopmarks floating around between your ears. Do you know if Japanese characters, which highly resemble Chinese chopmarks, are actually considered chopmarks? I recently bought a really neat looking Japanese 10 sen piece. It's the same size as a US dime, made around 1900 near as I can tell. The piece could be more-or-less exactly dated if one understands what the mint-made Japanese characters say. It's been a challenge for me to solve this mystery, to say the least.
Okay. You obviously don't want to share your knowledge so I promise I will not say another word about Chinese chopmarks or Japanese characters here. I try to learn something every day but that's just me.
@TrickleCharge said:
I browsed some of the card forums. For raw cards the authenticator seems to be 1) checking that the card is real 2) ensuring that it matches the listing description. For example if someone listed a raw card as near mint, but the authenticator noticed a crease or impairment that would place the card below the listed grade, it would fail authentication. The buyer would be told about the issue and given the option to either proceed with or cancel the sale.
I am curious if/how this would apply to coins. If a raw coin that has been cleaned is sold without any mention of it, could the authenticator fail the coin for the cleaning?
Interesting question. The coin needs to be "significantly as described" before it can be sent to the buyer. If the authenticator sees obvious "cleaned" then I would think the piece fails (passes?) the SNAD test and goes back to the seller.
If the coin below is purchased, and the authenticator finds the coin to be a counterfeit. Who pays for the $5.28 shipping? Does eBay pay for the return shipping to seller? If the example is a counterfeit is there any down side to the seller, so that counterfeit coins are not listed?
@slider23 wrote: If the coin below is purchased, and the authenticator finds the coin to be a counterfeit. Who pays for the $5.28 shipping? Does eBay pay for the return shipping to seller?
Excellent question. I don't know the answer to your question but somebody who posts constantly here about the world's biggest coin store has got a good answer I would think.
Come on now- reading the T&C's to see how the policy works? Who does that?
Just click "I Agree" and get on with your life.
LOL. Well, that would be fine. But if you want answers to your questions, your options are: post a random question to some random strangers on an internet forum or read the T&C.
I often feel like my continuing value to the workforce is my ability to actually use a search engine.
We still don't know what happens when the inspectors find that they are looking at a counterfeit or altered coin in a genuine untampered-with holder. Seller has got money coming (if not the buyer from the TPG that authenticated it) so it would be wrong of the inspectors to just seize it or turn it over to SS.
Furthermore, it would be illegal (according to the lawyer) to mail such an item back to the seller. Hand delivery (to the seller) of the odious item might work out, I suppose.
@jmlanzaf said:
I often feel like my continuing value to the workforce is my ability to actually use a search engine.
How about Copilot? That can be useful for confirming your opinions, I hear.
Copilot no help in providing an answer to my vexing question. What happens when the inspectors find that they are looking at a counterfeit coin in a genuine holder? Could it be that a higher level of the inspecting TPG would need to get involved?
@jmlanzaf said:
I often feel like my continuing value to the workforce is my ability to actually use a search engine.
How about Copilot? That can be useful for confirming your opinions, I hear.
Copilot no help in providing an answer to my vexing question. What happens when the inspectors find that they are looking at a counterfeit coin in a genuine holder? Could it be that a higher level of the inspecting TPG would need to get involved?
They don't inspect coins in holders. They authenticate the holder. We've already discussed this.
And who cares? You'll find out if it ever happens to you.
Are you saying that an expensive coin identified as a counterfeit by a sharp inspector gets sent on it's way to the buyer only because it's in a genuine holder?
@jmlanzaf said:
I often feel like my continuing value to the workforce is my ability to actually use a search engine.
How about Copilot? That can be useful for confirming your opinions, I hear.
Copilot no help in providing an answer to my vexing question. What happens when the inspectors find that they are looking at a counterfeit coin in a genuine holder? Could it be that a higher level of the inspecting TPG would need to get involved?
They don't inspect coins in holders. They authenticate the holder. We've already discussed this.
And who cares? You'll find out if it ever happens to you.
Are you saying that an expensive coin identified as a counterfeit by a sharp inspector gets sent on it's way to the buyer only because it's in a genuine holder?
If you suspect that you purchased a counterfeit coin in an authentic holder, then your next step is to contact the TPG who graded it. This should be covered under their guarantee. For slabbed coins the eBay program is identifying if the holder is fake or if the holder is real, but has been tampered with. In the above example they did a good job of correctly identifying a fake slab.
@jmlanzaf said:
I often feel like my continuing value to the workforce is my ability to actually use a search engine.
How about Copilot? That can be useful for confirming your opinions, I hear.
Copilot no help in providing an answer to my vexing question. What happens when the inspectors find that they are looking at a counterfeit coin in a genuine holder? Could it be that a higher level of the inspecting TPG would need to get involved?
They don't inspect coins in holders. They authenticate the holder. We've already discussed this.
And who cares? You'll find out if it ever happens to you.
Are you saying that an expensive coin identified as a counterfeit by a sharp inspector gets sent on it's way to the buyer only because it's in a genuine holder?
This is a legitimate concern. Several years ago, PCGS slabbed several 1896, 1900 and 1902 Morgan dollars all with the micro-O mintmark that were later determined to be counterfeit. PCGS issued a Public Service Announcement saying that they were counterfeit and that they wanted to buy them back but many were kept by collectors so there are counterfeits in genuine PCGS slabs out there in collections.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If he cared about the answer to his question, he'd have done that already.
I agree. He just keeps creating new scenarios with no real interest in the program itself.
What new scenario? The scenario is and has been, what happens when the TPG inspectors find themselves looking at a counterfeit coin in a genuine untampered-with holder. The lawyer, called this scenario "tautological." With all due respect to the lawyer, that is an incorrect characterization of the scenario. I'm thinking sending the item by Fedex is the way to go to get the counterfeit back in the hands of the seller. Fedex, a private company, doesn't have to play by the rules in place at USPS. The seller pays for Fedex service to get his counterfeit back in his hands so that he can deal with it at the TPG (or the party who sold him the item) and avail himself of the TPG's authenticity guarantee. Problem solved.
@jmlanzaf said:
I often feel like my continuing value to the workforce is my ability to actually use a search engine.
How about Copilot? That can be useful for confirming your opinions, I hear.
Copilot no help in providing an answer to my vexing question. What happens when the inspectors find that they are looking at a counterfeit coin in a genuine holder? Could it be that a higher level of the inspecting TPG would need to get involved?
They don't inspect coins in holders. They authenticate the holder. We've already discussed this.
And who cares? You'll find out if it ever happens to you.
Are you saying that an expensive coin identified as a counterfeit by a sharp inspector gets sent on it's way to the buyer only because it's in a genuine holder?
This is a legitimate concern. Several years ago, PCGS slabbed several 1896, 1900 and 1902 Morgan dollars all with the micro-O mintmark that were later determined to be counterfeit. PCGS issued a Public Service Announcement saying that they were counterfeit and that they wanted to buy them back but many were kept by collectors so there are counterfeits in genuine PCGS slabs out there in collections.
And those mentioned are worth more now to those collectors than before.
Those who know me know I have some pretty interesting "coins" in genuine TPG holders and continue to look for them...
Yes, Ebay has gotten more expensive and possibly 'worse', but if you know your stuff, year after year, it has been very profitable for me (mainly for buying).
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
@JDark said:
If they are not reviewing the approved TPG's holdered coins but just the holder and label, how would this even come about?
Holder, label, coin is the complete package. PCGS is the industry leader. I like to think they hire the brightest and the best. The "fix" is easy for the TPG as far as ebay is concerned. Simply send the suspected counterfeit that has somehow made its way into a genuine holder back to the seller via Fedex or some other private carrier.
There is a saying posted prominently at the entrance to the television broadcast station newsroom where dwell the bringers of the light:
@JDark said:
If they are not reviewing the approved TPG's holdered coins but just the holder and label, how would this even come about?
Holder, label, coin is the complete package. PCGS is the industry leader. I like to think they hire the brightest and the best. The "fix" is easy for the TPG as far as ebay is concerned. Simply send the suspected counterfeit that has somehow made its way into a genuine holder back to the seller via Fedex or some other private carrier.
There is a saying posted prominently at the entrance to the television broadcast station newsroom where dwell the bringers of the light:
"Accuracy. Accuracy. Accuracy."
You are obviously closer to this than I am.
As I have seen stated here repeatedly, the highlighted wording from eBay's own description of the service: "Who is authenticating the coins? eBay's team of professionally trained authenticators vet and verify each item, utilizing detailed, physical inspection and advanced technical equipment in a state-of-the-art facility. For raw coins, experts verify authenticity through a multi-point inspection, and then carefully review listing details for accuracy. For graded coins, experts authenticate each holder and label. No re-grading is performed unless otherwise stated by eBay.".
One might surmise from the wording they are NOT looking to authenticate the coin itself, since it had already been authenticated by 1 of the 4 approved TPGs. Which is why I asked my original question, and I assume this was your answer...
@JDark said:
If they are not reviewing the approved TPG's holdered coins but just the holder and label, how would this even come about?
Holder, label, coin is the complete package. PCGS is the industry leader. I like to think they hire the brightest and the best. The "fix" is easy for the TPG as far as ebay is concerned. Simply send the suspected counterfeit that has somehow made its way into a genuine holder back to the seller via Fedex or some other private carrier.
There is a saying posted prominently at the entrance to the television broadcast station newsroom where dwell the bringers of the light:
"Accuracy. Accuracy. Accuracy."
You are obviously closer to this than I am.
As I have seen stated here repeatedly, the highlighted wording from eBay's own description of the service: "Who is authenticating the coins? eBay's team of professionally trained authenticators vet and verify each item, utilizing detailed, physical inspection and advanced technical equipment in a state-of-the-art facility. For raw coins, experts verify authenticity through a multi-point inspection, and then carefully review listing details for accuracy. For graded coins, experts authenticate each holder and label. No re-grading is performed unless otherwise stated by eBay.".
One might surmise from the wording they are NOT looking to authenticate the coin itself, since it had already been authenticated by 1 of the 4 approved TPGs. Which is why I asked my original question, and I assume this was your answer...
I'm not suggesting that the TPG hired by ebay needs to go over slabbed coin they inspect with a fine-toothed comb for coin authenticity. It's not reasonable to expect the "eBay team of professionally trained authenticators" to do that. I would be interested in some details about the "advanced technical equipment," they are claiming is being used to verify holder authenticity. Has a holder authenticator device been invented?
Several years ago I purchased an NGC graded Barber dime from a seller on ebay. The coin had been straight-graded as XF 45 and the ebay images gave me every indication that I would be receiving a solid, accurately graded coin for my money. On opening the package, however, I was shocked at what I saw. The holder, though genuine, showed evidence of being "compromised" and the coin contained within, even though it had XF details to my eyes, had obviously been cleaned. Without saying what I suspected about my purchase, I showed the piece to my wife and asked her what she thought about it. My "advanced technical equipment" wife, not a trained numismatist by any means, said without hesitation, "It looks cleaned."
Hopefully, ebay's holder authentication service will work out for buyers and sellers alike. The program has my best wishes.
Comments
I would like to see some statistics eventually on program parameters, giving buyers and sellers a chance to make evaluation, on an ongoing basis, of how well the ebay/PCGS program is performing.
In the FAQ's....
Q: "Are coins listed in the bullion category eligible for Authenticity Guarantee?"
A: "Not at this time."
Interesting.
There's a lot of high value material, slabbed 70's and all, listed in the bullion category that won't need to be "Authenticated".
Would you really like to see them?
Er, why should he/she be consistent in their 'trolling' when you are not?
Yes I would like to see the numbers for the ebay/PCGS authentication program and share my findings after subjecting said numbers to analysis. Anyone got any ideas on what parameters might be interesting to look at? The two main groups are raw coins and third-party graded coins, of course.
How many raw coins did the authenticaters inspect? How many of the raw coins inspected got the nod of approval? What are the percentages by denomination of raw coins getting approved for sending to buyer? These are just a few numbers to look at and analyze for raw coins valued by sellers at $500 or more.
Well, if you really want to see them, here are the numbers for your analysis:
Another one from the FAQ's:
Q: Will I be charged a fee for Authenticity Guarantee?
A: No. Through the Authenticity Guarantee service, eBay covers the cost of authentication for a limited time.
I'm guessing a major benefit of this eBay authentication program is that most of the scammers will just stop knowingly peddling their fake coins on eBay.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Why is it almost immediately we know exactly which member is being referred to here?
You Just need a quick apology to @dcarr and you're all good.)
Ikey, Dr. Lori doesn't have the expertise in mathematics that I do. Mathematics was my minor in college. I have enough earned college credits to actually be a teacher of high school level math. I went to some effort to be a teacher after my career in television boadcasting was over. I did file my fingerprints with the Colorado Bureau of Investigation but failed to get a high enough score on the Praxis test for math. I scored 142 on said test but the minimum score needed was 156 which is the Colorado standard, the highest of all states in the nation. I could have gone to Arkansas to teach. Arkansas standard for score to pass the Praxis test was 116 at the time. I communicated by email a bit with a HS math teacher in Colorado and in light of his remarks about teaching kids in today's world, i consider that it's a blessing in disguise that I didn't make it as a teacher in Colorado.
I know. My story about being a math teacher is neither here nor there. I just wanted to establish that I do have ample math skills to do an analysis of ebay/PCGS authentication program statistics that will blow your socks off. You will be going, "Tell me more! Tell me more!"
Tell me less. Tell me less.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
It's either IkesT or me...hey, that rhymes...Ikes tee or me...
Yes. Exactly that.
C'mon out with the truth. You guys are brothers, aren't you?
I browsed some of the card forums. For raw cards the authenticator seems to be 1) checking that the card is real 2) ensuring that it matches the listing description. For example if someone listed a raw card as near mint, but the authenticator noticed a crease or impairment that would place the card below the listed grade, it would fail authentication. The buyer would be told about the issue and given the option to either proceed with or cancel the sale.
I am curious if/how this would apply to coins. If a raw coin that has been cleaned is sold without any mention of it, could the authenticator fail the coin for the cleaning?
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Okay. You obviously don't want to share your knowledge so I promise I will not say another word about Chinese chopmarks or Japanese characters here. I try to learn something every day but that's just me.
Interesting question. The coin needs to be "significantly as described" before it can be sent to the buyer. If the authenticator sees obvious "cleaned" then I would think the piece fails (passes?) the SNAD test and goes back to the seller.
I sort of get the feeling that eBay is STILL not for me.
Official PCGS account of:
www.TallahasseeCoinClub.com
If the coin below is purchased, and the authenticator finds the coin to be a counterfeit. Who pays for the $5.28 shipping? Does eBay pay for the return shipping to seller? If the example is a counterfeit is there any down side to the seller, so that counterfeit coins are not listed?
@slider23 wrote:
If the coin below is purchased, and the authenticator finds the coin to be a counterfeit. Who pays for the $5.28 shipping? Does eBay pay for the return shipping to seller?
Excellent question. I don't know the answer to your question but somebody who posts constantly here about the world's biggest coin store has got a good answer I would think.
Come on now- reading the T&C's to see how the policy works? Who does that?
Just click "I Agree" and get on with your life.
How about Copilot? That can be useful for confirming your opinions, I hear.
We still don't know what happens when the inspectors find that they are looking at a counterfeit or altered coin in a genuine untampered-with holder. Seller has got money coming (if not the buyer from the TPG that authenticated it) so it would be wrong of the inspectors to just seize it or turn it over to SS.
Furthermore, it would be illegal (according to the lawyer) to mail such an item back to the seller. Hand delivery (to the seller) of the odious item might work out, I suppose.
Copilot no help in providing an answer to my vexing question. What happens when the inspectors find that they are looking at a counterfeit coin in a genuine holder? Could it be that a higher level of the inspecting TPG would need to get involved?
Are you saying that an expensive coin identified as a counterfeit by a sharp inspector gets sent on it's way to the buyer only because it's in a genuine holder?
If he cared about the answer to his question, he'd have done that already.
And the result of my coin:
If you suspect that you purchased a counterfeit coin in an authentic holder, then your next step is to contact the TPG who graded it. This should be covered under their guarantee. For slabbed coins the eBay program is identifying if the holder is fake or if the holder is real, but has been tampered with. In the above example they did a good job of correctly identifying a fake slab.
This is a legitimate concern. Several years ago, PCGS slabbed several 1896, 1900 and 1902 Morgan dollars all with the micro-O mintmark that were later determined to be counterfeit. PCGS issued a Public Service Announcement saying that they were counterfeit and that they wanted to buy them back but many were kept by collectors so there are counterfeits in genuine PCGS slabs out there in collections.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
What new scenario? The scenario is and has been, what happens when the TPG inspectors find themselves looking at a counterfeit coin in a genuine untampered-with holder. The lawyer, called this scenario "tautological." With all due respect to the lawyer, that is an incorrect characterization of the scenario. I'm thinking sending the item by Fedex is the way to go to get the counterfeit back in the hands of the seller. Fedex, a private company, doesn't have to play by the rules in place at USPS. The seller pays for Fedex service to get his counterfeit back in his hands so that he can deal with it at the TPG (or the party who sold him the item) and avail himself of the TPG's authenticity guarantee. Problem solved.
If they are not reviewing the approved TPG's holdered coins but just the holder and label, how would this even come about?
And those mentioned are worth more now to those collectors than before.
Those who know me know I have some pretty interesting "coins" in genuine TPG holders and continue to look for them...
Long time Ebay member here (since 1998).
Yes, Ebay has gotten more expensive and possibly 'worse', but if you know your stuff, year after year, it has been very profitable for me (mainly for buying).
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Holder, label, coin is the complete package. PCGS is the industry leader. I like to think they hire the brightest and the best. The "fix" is easy for the TPG as far as ebay is concerned. Simply send the suspected counterfeit that has somehow made its way into a genuine holder back to the seller via Fedex or some other private carrier.
There is a saying posted prominently at the entrance to the television broadcast station newsroom where dwell the bringers of the light:
"Accuracy. Accuracy. Accuracy."
You are obviously closer to this than I am.
As I have seen stated here repeatedly, the highlighted wording from eBay's own description of the service: "Who is authenticating the coins? eBay's team of professionally trained authenticators vet and verify each item, utilizing detailed, physical inspection and advanced technical equipment in a state-of-the-art facility. For raw coins, experts verify authenticity through a multi-point inspection, and then carefully review listing details for accuracy. For graded coins, experts authenticate each holder and label. No re-grading is performed unless otherwise stated by eBay.".
One might surmise from the wording they are NOT looking to authenticate the coin itself, since it had already been authenticated by 1 of the 4 approved TPGs. Which is why I asked my original question, and I assume this was your answer...
I'm not suggesting that the TPG hired by ebay needs to go over slabbed coin they inspect with a fine-toothed comb for coin authenticity. It's not reasonable to expect the "eBay team of professionally trained authenticators" to do that. I would be interested in some details about the "advanced technical equipment," they are claiming is being used to verify holder authenticity. Has a holder authenticator device been invented?
Several years ago I purchased an NGC graded Barber dime from a seller on ebay. The coin had been straight-graded as XF 45 and the ebay images gave me every indication that I would be receiving a solid, accurately graded coin for my money. On opening the package, however, I was shocked at what I saw. The holder, though genuine, showed evidence of being "compromised" and the coin contained within, even though it had XF details to my eyes, had obviously been cleaned. Without saying what I suspected about my purchase, I showed the piece to my wife and asked her what she thought about it. My "advanced technical equipment" wife, not a trained numismatist by any means, said without hesitation, "It looks cleaned."
Hopefully, ebay's holder authentication service will work out for buyers and sellers alike. The program has my best wishes.