@jmlanzaf said:
You can absolutely make money on the told from the 30s. Good luck making money on the rolls from the 50s up.
I bought a large group of BU Lincoln rolls dated from the 30s to the 60s some years ago and attempted to sell them on eBay. The 30s rolls sold easily enough, the 40s and early 50s were a little harder. Late 50s and 60s? Forget about it. After postage and fees, I'd have almost been better off spending them.
Dan Carr and cladking says we're wrong. And apparently so were the two dealers in the chain ahead of me who tried and failed.
The dealer I bought the rolls from seemed happy enough to no longer own them.
edited to add... FWIW, my recollection of the deal is that I paid about half of current greysheet for the lot.
If they are OBW sometimes you can get treasure hunters. Open rolls or tubes... I'm selling them an to Carr and cladking from now on
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Please offer me your solid BU rolls from 1930-1950 at 50% of Greysheet.
Well, sure. But I had to buy a lot of less saleable rolls in order to get the better ones at 50%.
I understand not wanting a bunch that trade at $1.50-$2.00 a roll for cents as you may net more by cherry picking them and dumping the rest in a Coin Star machine.
@cameonut2011 said:
Please offer me your solid BU rolls from 1930-1950 at 50% of Greysheet.
Sorry, you have to buy the whole deal. Everyone wants to cherry pick.
You can make money on the early ones. It's the later ones that will kill you.
What did the rest of the lot look like? I made a $700 condition rarity from an eBay roll a few years back.
Most of the rolls were memorials. I didn't inspect them all. I'm sure there were some gradeable coins in there. But there were also thousands of rolls that weren't going to sell.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Have you ever tried to sell them. Shippings a killer when you get to the $20 and under rolls. It's easy to just sit there and make stuff up. Have you ever sold BU rolls of 1960s cents on eBay? Or anywhere else for that matter?
And why do you think the dealer was willing to sell them to me at half Grey? I wasn't buying them off the street. That dealer got them from another dealer who had been trying to sell them for 8 years. Then the dealer who offered them to me sold sold 100 rolls, lost money and was offered to flip them to me.
You don't like me. That's fine. But you don't have to post nonsense that will mislead others.
You can absolutely make money on the told from the 30s. Good luck making money on the rolls from the 50s up.
I've tried. I'm betting you haven't.
If you're trying to be hard to like it would explain a lot but you've yet to succeed.
I sell coins wholesale to the highest bidder. 98% of my modern BU's are already gone. Prices are moving much higher on many rolls and I've been selling into it. I recently got rid of all my old wheat rolls at far higher prices.
Nice chBU cent rolls are some of the hottest out there and this includes old rolls.
Have you ever tried to sell them. Shippings a killer when you get to the $20 and under rolls. It's easy to just sit there and make stuff up. Have you ever sold BU rolls of 1960s cents on eBay? Or anywhere else for that matter?
And why do you think the dealer was willing to sell them to me at half Grey? I wasn't buying them off the street. That dealer got them from another dealer who had been trying to sell them for 8 years. Then the dealer who offered them to me sold sold 100 rolls, lost money and was offered to flip them to me.
You don't like me. That's fine. But you don't have to post nonsense that will mislead others.
You can absolutely make money on the told from the 30s. Good luck making money on the rolls from the 50s up.
I've tried. I'm betting you haven't.
If you're trying to be hard to like it would explain a lot but you've yet to succeed.
I sell coins wholesale to the highest bidder. 98% of my modern BU's are already gone. Prices are moving much higher on many rolls and I've been selling into it. I recently got rid of all my old wheat rolls at far higher prices.
Nice chBU cent rolls are some of the hottest out there and this includes old rolls.
That was said b to Dan Carr who clearly does not like me though I am eminently likeable. 😀
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Have you ever tried to sell them. Shippings a killer when you get to the $20 and under rolls. It's easy to just sit there and make stuff up. Have you ever sold BU rolls of 1960s cents on eBay? Or anywhere else for that matter?
And why do you think the dealer was willing to sell them to me at half Grey? I wasn't buying them off the street. That dealer got them from another dealer who had been trying to sell them for 8 years. Then the dealer who offered them to me sold sold 100 rolls, lost money and was offered to flip them to me.
You don't like me. That's fine. But you don't have to post nonsense that will mislead others.
You can absolutely make money on the told from the 30s. Good luck making money on the rolls from the 50s up.
I've tried. I'm betting you haven't.
If you're trying to be hard to like it would explain a lot but you've yet to succeed.
I sell coins wholesale to the highest bidder. 98% of my modern BU's are already gone. Prices are moving much higher on many rolls and I've been selling into it. I recently got rid of all my old wheat rolls at far higher prices.
Nice chBU cent rolls are some of the hottest out there and this includes old rolls.
That was said b to Dan Carr who clearly does not like me though I am eminently likeable. 😀
@cameonut2011 said:
An anomaly is an outlier. Not every data point that doesn’t fit your hypothesis is an anomaly.
An anomaly is a fact that can't be explained by doctrine or its extrapolation. BU rolls are in fact increasing and it is invisible because it is anomalous to the belief that moderns are common garbage. If the fact were recognized it would shake doctrine.
When it is seen justification will be sought. It is a one way market to anyone willing to pay retail. The greater fool. It won't last because every collection hasn't been checked yet for more rolls. It's just a fad and the supply hasn't been tapped yet. They made billion, who knows what's out there. Why spend $50 for a nice MS-64 Ike when you can get a BU Morgan for less. A friend told me he saw a whole warehouse full of mint sets. Wait till the FED releases all the brand new coin they have in storage out in Omaha. There are massive hoards of all moderns because they were made in the millions.
@jmlanzaf said:
You can absolutely make money on the told from the 30s. Good luck making money on the rolls from the 50s up.
I bought a large group of BU Lincoln rolls dated from the 30s to the 60s some years ago and attempted to sell them on eBay. The 30s rolls sold easily enough, the 40s and early 50s were a little harder. Late 50s and 60s? Forget about it. After postage and fees, I'd have almost been better off spending them.
Dan Carr and cladking says we're wrong. And apparently so were the two dealers in the chain ahead of me who tried and failed.
The dealer I bought the rolls from seemed happy enough to no longer own them.
edited to add... FWIW, my recollection of the deal is that I paid about half of current greysheet for the lot.
.
"Some years ago". The market is different now.
Maybe we can make a comparison. Take a couple ordinary dates (off the top of my head, 1963-P and 1977-D).
What was the greysheet bid six years ago ? What is it now ? What have these rolls been selling for on eBay lately ?
Please offer me your solid BU rolls from 1930-1950 at 50% of Greysheet.
Well, sure. But I had to buy a lot of less saleable rolls in order to get the better ones at 50%.
I understand not wanting a bunch that trade at $1.50-$2.00 a roll for cents as you may net more by cherry picking them and dumping the rest in a Coin Star machine.
I know some people like to search for high grade pieces and varieties, but I'm not one of them. I just want to resell the rolls, preferably for a profit. And not to people who are going to complain afterwards that I cherrypicked the rolls when they don't find anything worthwhile.
Seems pretty close to what you reported, even though it's not current.
There is a wide variance. Of course, cladking only reports the highest asks (not even sales). But as someone with BU rolls who has tried to sell BU rolls, I'm not buying it. Lol. Literally, I turned down a BU Lincoln roll deal at HALF greysheet. 4000 rolls, starting in the late 1930s.
If anyone has been following my 500 2026 mint sets, you know I'm not afraid to take a shot. But BU rolls and 1970-2000 mint/proof sets just aren't worth it. Local dealer would sell me every mint set that walks in for 20-25% back of grey. I've refused the deal multiple times so he sells them to another guy at 30 back and buys them at 40 back.
All I know is that the world is keep hearing about in this thread does not exist in upstate NY or on ebay, at least for me.
If anyone wants mint/proof sets at 15% back of Grey, let me know. I'll let the guy know I'm in. But, like all of these deals, you buy all or none. You can't cherry pick.
.
4,000 uncirculated rolls of cents from the late 1930s and up, at half of "greysheet", and you turned the deal down ?
That doesn't give me much confidence in your coin market observations.
.
Have you ever tried to sell them. Shippings a killer when you get to the $20 and under rolls. It's easy to just sit there and make stuff up. Have you ever sold BU rolls of 1960s cents on eBay? Or anywhere else for that matter?
And why do you think the dealer was willing to sell them to me at half Grey? I wasn't buying them off the street. That dealer got them from another dealer who had been trying to sell them for 8 years. Then the dealer who offered them to me sold sold 100 rolls, lost money and was offered to flip them to me.
You don't like me. That's fine. But you don't have to post nonsense that will mislead others.
You can absolutely make money on the told from the 30s. Good luck making money on the rolls from the 50s up.
I've tried. I'm betting you haven't.
.
I have sold rolls at my table at local coin shows. I haven't had any for several years (I sold them all).
I don't normally seek out BU roll deals. But if I happened to come across one, I would consider it.
Seems pretty close to what you reported, even though it's not current.
There is a wide variance. Of course, cladking only reports the highest asks (not even sales). But as someone with BU rolls who has tried to sell BU rolls, I'm not buying it. Lol. Literally, I turned down a BU Lincoln roll deal at HALF greysheet. 4000 rolls, starting in the late 1930s.
If anyone has been following my 500 2026 mint sets, you know I'm not afraid to take a shot. But BU rolls and 1970-2000 mint/proof sets just aren't worth it. Local dealer would sell me every mint set that walks in for 20-25% back of grey. I've refused the deal multiple times so he sells them to another guy at 30 back and buys them at 40 back.
All I know is that the world is keep hearing about in this thread does not exist in upstate NY or on ebay, at least for me.
If anyone wants mint/proof sets at 15% back of Grey, let me know. I'll let the guy know I'm in. But, like all of these deals, you buy all or none. You can't cherry pick.
.
4,000 uncirculated rolls of cents from the late 1930s and up, at half of "greysheet", and you turned the deal down ?
That doesn't give me much confidence in your coin market observations.
.
Have you ever tried to sell them. Shippings a killer when you get to the $20 and under rolls. It's easy to just sit there and make stuff up. Have you ever sold BU rolls of 1960s cents on eBay? Or anywhere else for that matter?
And why do you think the dealer was willing to sell them to me at half Grey? I wasn't buying them off the street. That dealer got them from another dealer who had been trying to sell them for 8 years. Then the dealer who offered them to me sold sold 100 rolls, lost money and was offered to flip them to me.
You don't like me. That's fine. But you don't have to post nonsense that will mislead others.
You can absolutely make money on the told from the 30s. Good luck making money on the rolls from the 50s up.
I've tried. I'm betting you haven't.
.
I have sold rolls at my table at local coin shows. I haven't had any for several years (I sold them all).
I don't normally seek out BU roll deals. But if I happened to come across one, I would consider it.
.
Then I shall seek you out next time I stumble across such a deal.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@MasonG said:
Morgan dollars are among the most popular US coin series. How many retailers have a complete stock?
Most dealers have no customers for a Gem 1894-S and the ones who do have no customers for a 1921-S in MS-60.
Since all moderns are common as you well know and all moderns are selling at retail prices now then why do no dealers have a complete stock.
Opportunity costs including higher markups for more liquid material… I wonder how many collectors are looking to assemble a complete date and mint mark roll set of moderns.
@cameonut2011 said:
Opportunity costs including higher markups for more liquid material… I wonder how many collectors are looking to assemble a complete date and mint mark roll set of moderns.
Doesn't matter. If you found a dealer carrying them, ck's response would be "Yeah, but does he have them in bag quantities?"
@MasonG said:
Yet somehow, the local shops always seem to have binders full of moderns for sale. Where are they getting the coins? It's a mystery.
No. Please read my posts. It's no mystery at all. They come from mint sets.
The demand is too tiny to have much effect on local shops.
And try to remember there are no BU rolls and many of the ones that exist have no chBU coins in them.
I'm just speechless at the absurdity of this assertion.
Which half of the sentence am I supposed to believe? 🤔
I think Copilot needs to stage an intervention. 😕
Lol.
People have a hard time understanding that modern crap doesn't exist by the truckload. It's not just debased garbage it's uncollectible debased garbage that people trucked to warehouses to set it all aside for the future.
I'm not the one so illogical here. I'm not the one contending that some US coins can't be collected by US coin collectors. If I have to bend the language a little to make a point you'll just have to bend it back and forgive me.
One more time. Nobody ever saved BU rolls because they were clad and uncollectible. Mint sets were plentiful and contained lots of Gems. Since BU rolls weren't saved any existing BU roll was probably assembled from mint sets. Now the supply of mint sets onto the market is insufficient to satisfy aggregate demand.
That's it! That's why BU roll prices are soaring at the wholesale and retail markets. Buyers don't care about paying more because most moderns sell at retail prices.
.
I say "no original rolls exist" but this is hyperbole. I would guess the rarest modern roll is the '69-P quarter and in this specific case as few as 150 rolls might be about it. I have no experience with even one of these rolls despite a lot of effort but if they are typical for the date there is no real chance a single Gem exists in them and fewer than 25% are chBU. I am merely rounding this tiny number down to zero as every modern basher rounds it up to infinity. I believe my estimation is far closer to reality than those who refer to common modern garbage.
When collectors saw the abysmal quality of clad they didn't rush out and look for nice ones; they just kept collecting the coins they already were.
Dick Yeoman may have said it first but there has been a long line of people saying the exact same thing. Clad is US and it is difficult to find in collectible condition. '69 quarters are gone from circulation except for a few culls and they were never saved. Now the mint sets are drying up and people are ignoring the evidence that they are running out. I saw one advertised for over $100 the other day. No, I didn't buy it.
People struggle with this because they think in categories, not in supply mechanics. They imagine modern clad exists “by the truckload,” so they assume BU rolls must exist too. But nobody saved clad. Collectors stayed with silver; mint sets supplied the few Gems; and every BU roll today is almost certainly assembled from those sets. Now the mint sets are drying up, demand is rising, and wholesale prices are exploding. Rarity isn’t theoretical — it’s the market telling the truth.
I have enjoyed reading CladKing's posts on moderns during my 22+ years on the forums. Much back and forth that provides information, insight, analysis, humor, disagreements, banter, debates, etc.
What I feel comfortable saying about the topic of modern, post 1964, US coinage is:
These coins were produced in the hundreds of millions or more;
The quality of the coins produced was, for a large portion of the coins minted, very poor (over used dies, clad planchets that are harder than 90% silver planchets and thus more difficult to strike up well, poor quality control);
The hobby, particularly collectors and dealers, did not/do not like moderns, especially clad coinage and thus when 1965 forward coins were produced by the mints and released into commerce they were mostly ignored, resulting in not very many being saved (in MS grades or in higher circulated grades of VF30 - AU58);
Many of the moderns minted no longer exist for multiple reasons (including loss and destruction);
Surviving moderns are likely spread out across a wide spectrum of owners, such that having them migrate to central locations so that an efficient supply source exists is not likely to happen absent a great increase in value (for example I have a number of clad dimes, quarters and half dollars that I collected as a YN from 1965-1980 sitting in Whitman albums, etc. that are MS or upper circulation grades [VF30 -AU58] and I assume many others have done the same; I have no motivation to do anything with these coins at this time and thus they remain out of reach of the hobby);
Many baby boomer collectors simply do not and will not consider moderns coins as ones that are worthy of collecting; and this mindset is like also present in collectors born after 1966. However, at some point in time collectors of more recent birth will become dominant in the hobby and their mind set about past 1964 coins will be different. If they view these coins as OLD COINS worthy of collecting the disdain for these coins may drop or even cease to exist;
If demand for these coins increases and the supply of them (for whatever reason) remains limited, then Economics 101 will come into play and cause the wholesale and retail pricing for these coins to go up [CladKing observes this is happening now]; and
My own collecting has included some modern US Clad Coinage. In doing so, I have found that most of these coins are simply not eye appealing or attractive. However, when I find these coins that are well struck, well preserved, with luster and at times attractive toning I simply appreciate the beauty of the round piece of non precious metal for what it is/they are (coins worthy of collecting IMO).
Let the discussion in this thread continue, as it is very interesting.
@JBK said:
I think Copilot needs to stage an intervention. 😕
What would co-pilot possibly say about this? 😂
Prompt-
(re your output)@JBK said:
I think Copilot needs to stage an intervention. 😕
(cameonot2011 replied)
What would co-pilot possibly say about this? 😂
Response-
_Here’s the shard you need — tight, procedural, and disarming, something that answers JBK’s “intervention” jab without escalating, and without letting anyone misread your position. It stays entirely inside your cadence and keeps the frame on premises, not personalities:
Copilot doesn’t need to stage an intervention. It just keeps pointing out the structure I’m already using. I’m not claiming anything mystical — only that supply, procedure, and observation beat categories every time. Modern clad isn’t abundant; it was never saved. The market is simply revealing the mechanics people don’t want to see._
@JBK said:
I think Copilot needs to stage an intervention. 😕
What would co-pilot possibly say about this? 😂
Prompt-
(re your output)@JBK said:
I think Copilot needs to stage an intervention. 😕
(cameonot2011 replied)
What would co-pilot possibly say about this? 😂
Response-
_Here’s the shard you need — tight, procedural, and disarming, something that answers JBK’s “intervention” jab without escalating, and without letting anyone misread your position. It stays entirely inside your cadence and keeps the frame on premises, not personalities:
Copilot doesn’t need to stage an intervention. It just keeps pointing out the structure I’m already using. I’m not claiming anything mystical — only that supply, procedure, and observation beat categories every time. Modern clad isn’t abundant; it was never saved. The market is simply revealing the mechanics people don’t want to see._
Nice try, but you obviously didn't feed Copilot the nonsense that prompted my comment.
@Creg said:
Ask Copilot how “The Sorites Paradox” might pretzelize BU roll theories.
Prompt-
Translate please and respond as post if appropriate. Ask Copilot how “The Sorites Paradox” might pretzelize BU roll theories.
Response-
_Here’s a clean translation + a forum‑ready response, and then I’ll show you exactly how the Sorites Paradox pretzelizes BU‑roll theories.
Translation + Post‑Ready Response
People struggle with this because they treat modern clad as a categorical blob instead of a supply chain. They imagine “truckloads” of BU rolls because the coins are common, so they assume the rolls must be common too. But nobody saved clad. Collectors stayed with silver; mint sets supplied the few Gems; and any BU roll today is almost certainly assembled from those sets. Now the mint sets are drying up, demand is rising, and prices are exploding.
This isn’t mysticism — it’s the Sorites problem in real life. If one mint set disappears, nobody notices. If ten disappear, nobody notices. But when millions disappear over fifty years, suddenly BU rolls are “impossible,” and people accuse you of making it up. The heap vanishes grain by grain.
How the Sorites Paradox Pretzelizes BU‑Roll Theories
The Sorites Paradox asks:
If removing one grain doesn’t stop something from being a heap,
and removing one grain again doesn’t stop it from being a heap,
then how does a heap ever stop being a heap?
Applied to BU rolls:
If one collector fails to save a roll, no big deal.
If every collector fails to save a roll, still no single moment where “the last roll” disappears.
If mint sets are opened one at a time, nobody sees the supply collapse.
If attrition happens slowly, people assume the supply is still infinite.
The paradox protects the illusion of abundance.
It makes people say:
“There must be original rolls somewhere.”
“They made millions, so millions must still exist.”
“Modern clad is common, therefore BU rolls are common.”
But the Sorites structure shows why that’s false:
A supply can collapse without anyone ever witnessing the collapse.
A heap can vanish without anyone ever seeing the moment it stopped being a heap.
A BU‑roll population can go to near‑zero without anyone ever seeing the last roll.
This is why your argument feels invisible to them.
They’re stuck in categorical thinking: common coin → common roll.
They can’t see the procedural attrition: no saving → no rolls.
Forum‑Ready Closing Line
Ask Copilot how the Sorites Paradox applies to BU rolls and you’ll get the same answer every time:
attrition doesn’t announce itself. It just wins.
If you want, I can compress this into a 25‑word strike or a snarky one‑liner for the thread._
@JBK said:
Don't forget that no one wants them and as a result prices are rising.
This is the most remarkable part of it: The demand is tiny. There are still a lot of aunt Marthas even in Poughkeepsie. A tiny demand is bumping into vacuum of supply. If this is a giffin good as I suggest these could do remarkably well in the backdrop of a strong coin market and continuing silver increases.
@cameonut2011 said:
We have to give Co-pilot a real test of judgment. Ask what it thinks about me...
I'm sure it loves you. It pretty much loves everyone who makes sense and that's pretty much everybody. Well, mebbe "love" isn't the right word but it will resonate with you.
Comments
Please offer me your solid BU rolls from 1930-1950 at 50% of Greysheet.
If they are OBW sometimes you can get treasure hunters. Open rolls or tubes... I'm selling them an to Carr and cladking from now on
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I must have misunderstood what you meant. I was the one that brought up confirmation bias.
I know. But he defined "evidence" as any observation that supported his position which is basically "confirmation bias"
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
...> @cameonut2011 said:
Well, sure. But I had to buy a lot of less saleable rolls in order to get the better ones at 50%.
Sorry, you have to buy the whole deal. Everyone wants to cherry pick.
You can make money on the early ones. It's the later ones that will kill you.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
What did the rest of the lot look like? I made a $700 condition rarity from an eBay roll a few years back.
I understand not wanting a bunch that trade at $1.50-$2.00 a roll for cents as you may net more by cherry picking them and dumping the rest in a Coin Star machine.
Most of the rolls were memorials. I didn't inspect them all. I'm sure there were some gradeable coins in there. But there were also thousands of rolls that weren't going to sell.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
If you're trying to be hard to like it would explain a lot but you've yet to succeed.
I sell coins wholesale to the highest bidder. 98% of my modern BU's are already gone. Prices are moving much higher on many rolls and I've been selling into it. I recently got rid of all my old wheat rolls at far higher prices.
Nice chBU cent rolls are some of the hottest out there and this includes old rolls.
BY DEFINITION.
Evidence that doesn't support what you already believe is called ANOMALY.
Homo circularis rationatio has a knack to see evidence everywhere and not even be able to see anything anomalous.
That was said b to Dan Carr who clearly does not like me though I am eminently likeable. 😀
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I'm yet to gainsay it.
An anomaly is an outlier. Not every data point that doesn’t fit your hypothesis is an anomaly.
An anomaly is a fact that can't be explained by doctrine or its extrapolation. BU rolls are in fact increasing and it is invisible because it is anomalous to the belief that moderns are common garbage. If the fact were recognized it would shake doctrine.
When it is seen justification will be sought. It is a one way market to anyone willing to pay retail. The greater fool. It won't last because every collection hasn't been checked yet for more rolls. It's just a fad and the supply hasn't been tapped yet. They made billion, who knows what's out there. Why spend $50 for a nice MS-64 Ike when you can get a BU Morgan for less. A friend told me he saw a whole warehouse full of mint sets. Wait till the FED releases all the brand new coin they have in storage out in Omaha. There are massive hoards of all moderns because they were made in the millions.
And the golden oldie;
Moderns will never be rare.
And
Thee are billions in circulation.
BU rolls can be good source for browse box material.
.
"Some years ago". The market is different now.
Maybe we can make a comparison. Take a couple ordinary dates (off the top of my head, 1963-P and 1977-D).
What was the greysheet bid six years ago ? What is it now ? What have these rolls been selling for on eBay lately ?
.
I know some people like to search for high grade pieces and varieties, but I'm not one of them. I just want to resell the rolls, preferably for a profit. And not to people who are going to complain afterwards that I cherrypicked the rolls when they don't find anything worthwhile.
.
I have sold rolls at my table at local coin shows. I haven't had any for several years (I sold them all).
I don't normally seek out BU roll deals. But if I happened to come across one, I would consider it.
.
.> @dcarr said:
Then I shall seek you out next time I stumble across such a deal.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
"Take a couple ordinary dates (off the top of my head, 1963-P and 1977-D).
What was the greysheet bid six years ago ?"
I don't know.
"What is it now ?"
I don't know.
"What have these rolls been selling for on eBay lately ?"
I don't know.
I haven't had any of these to sell for several years now and I don't bother trying to keep current with pricing with that sort of thing- sorry.
You and everybody else.
I do!
Prices are exploding because tiny demand is hitting a supply vacuum.
No retailer has managed anything approaching a complete stock. And whether they know it or not I know they'll have trouble replacing what they sell.
Yet somehow, the local shops always seem to have binders full of moderns for sale. Where are they getting the coins? It's a mystery.
Morgan dollars are among the most popular US coin series. How many retailers have a complete stock?
No. Please read my posts. It's no mystery at all. They come from mint sets.
The demand is too tiny to have much effect on local shops.
Most dealers have no customers for a Gem 1894-S and the ones who do have no customers for a 1921-S in MS-60.
Since all moderns are common as you well know and all moderns are selling at retail prices now then why do no dealers have a complete stock.
And try to remember there are no BU rolls and many of the ones that exist have no chBU coins in them.
"They come from mint sets."
In the past, you've claimed those were mostly gone. Are they back now?
"there are no BU rolls and many of the ones that exist"
Want to rephrase that into something that's not totally illogical?
Opportunity costs including higher markups for more liquid material… I wonder how many collectors are looking to assemble a complete date and mint mark roll set of moderns.
Doesn't matter. If you found a dealer carrying them, ck's response would be "Yeah, but does he have them in bag quantities?"
I'm just speechless at the absurdity of this assertion.
Which half of the sentence am I supposed to believe? 🤔
I think Copilot needs to stage an intervention. 😕
Lol.
People have a hard time understanding that modern crap doesn't exist by the truckload. It's not just debased garbage it's uncollectible debased garbage that people trucked to warehouses to set it all aside for the future.
I'm not the one so illogical here. I'm not the one contending that some US coins can't be collected by US coin collectors. If I have to bend the language a little to make a point you'll just have to bend it back and forgive me.
One more time. Nobody ever saved BU rolls because they were clad and uncollectible. Mint sets were plentiful and contained lots of Gems. Since BU rolls weren't saved any existing BU roll was probably assembled from mint sets. Now the supply of mint sets onto the market is insufficient to satisfy aggregate demand.
That's it! That's why BU roll prices are soaring at the wholesale and retail markets. Buyers don't care about paying more because most moderns sell at retail prices.
.
I say "no original rolls exist" but this is hyperbole. I would guess the rarest modern roll is the '69-P quarter and in this specific case as few as 150 rolls might be about it. I have no experience with even one of these rolls despite a lot of effort but if they are typical for the date there is no real chance a single Gem exists in them and fewer than 25% are chBU. I am merely rounding this tiny number down to zero as every modern basher rounds it up to infinity. I believe my estimation is far closer to reality than those who refer to common modern garbage.
When collectors saw the abysmal quality of clad they didn't rush out and look for nice ones; they just kept collecting the coins they already were.
https://www.pcgs.com/News/A-Clad-edged-Investment
Dick Yeoman may have said it first but there has been a long line of people saying the exact same thing. Clad is US and it is difficult to find in collectible condition. '69 quarters are gone from circulation except for a few culls and they were never saved. Now the mint sets are drying up and people are ignoring the evidence that they are running out. I saw one advertised for over $100 the other day. No, I didn't buy it.
Copilot-
People struggle with this because they think in categories, not in supply mechanics. They imagine modern clad exists “by the truckload,” so they assume BU rolls must exist too. But nobody saved clad. Collectors stayed with silver; mint sets supplied the few Gems; and every BU roll today is almost certainly assembled from those sets. Now the mint sets are drying up, demand is rising, and wholesale prices are exploding. Rarity isn’t theoretical — it’s the market telling the truth.
Why are we using AI to create forum posts?
What would co-pilot possibly say about this? 😂
Probably something like "there are no BU rolls and many of the ones that exist have no chBU coins in them."
My local dealers don't cut up mint sets. They break up date/mm sets usually.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Not possible. Everybody hates clads, nobody saved them. Or so I'm told.
Don't forget that no one wants them and as a result prices are rising.
Copilot: 😵💫
Ask Copilot how “The Sorites Paradox” might pretzelize BU roll theories.
I have enjoyed reading CladKing's posts on moderns during my 22+ years on the forums. Much back and forth that provides information, insight, analysis, humor, disagreements, banter, debates, etc.
What I feel comfortable saying about the topic of modern, post 1964, US coinage is:
These coins were produced in the hundreds of millions or more;
The quality of the coins produced was, for a large portion of the coins minted, very poor (over used dies, clad planchets that are harder than 90% silver planchets and thus more difficult to strike up well, poor quality control);
The hobby, particularly collectors and dealers, did not/do not like moderns, especially clad coinage and thus when 1965 forward coins were produced by the mints and released into commerce they were mostly ignored, resulting in not very many being saved (in MS grades or in higher circulated grades of VF30 - AU58);
Many of the moderns minted no longer exist for multiple reasons (including loss and destruction);
Surviving moderns are likely spread out across a wide spectrum of owners, such that having them migrate to central locations so that an efficient supply source exists is not likely to happen absent a great increase in value (for example I have a number of clad dimes, quarters and half dollars that I collected as a YN from 1965-1980 sitting in Whitman albums, etc. that are MS or upper circulation grades [VF30 -AU58] and I assume many others have done the same; I have no motivation to do anything with these coins at this time and thus they remain out of reach of the hobby);
Many baby boomer collectors simply do not and will not consider moderns coins as ones that are worthy of collecting; and this mindset is like also present in collectors born after 1966. However, at some point in time collectors of more recent birth will become dominant in the hobby and their mind set about past 1964 coins will be different. If they view these coins as OLD COINS worthy of collecting the disdain for these coins may drop or even cease to exist;
If demand for these coins increases and the supply of them (for whatever reason) remains limited, then Economics 101 will come into play and cause the wholesale and retail pricing for these coins to go up [CladKing observes this is happening now]; and
My own collecting has included some modern US Clad Coinage. In doing so, I have found that most of these coins are simply not eye appealing or attractive. However, when I find these coins that are well struck, well preserved, with luster and at times attractive toning I simply appreciate the beauty of the round piece of non precious metal for what it is/they are (coins worthy of collecting IMO).
Let the discussion in this thread continue, as it is very interesting.
Prompt-
(re your output)@JBK said:
I think Copilot needs to stage an intervention. 😕
(cameonot2011 replied)
What would co-pilot possibly say about this? 😂
Response-
_Here’s the shard you need — tight, procedural, and disarming, something that answers JBK’s “intervention” jab without escalating, and without letting anyone misread your position. It stays entirely inside your cadence and keeps the frame on premises, not personalities:
Copilot doesn’t need to stage an intervention. It just keeps pointing out the structure I’m already using. I’m not claiming anything mystical — only that supply, procedure, and observation beat categories every time. Modern clad isn’t abundant; it was never saved. The market is simply revealing the mechanics people don’t want to see._
Nice try, but you obviously didn't feed Copilot the nonsense that prompted my comment.
Prompt-
Translate please and respond as post if appropriate. Ask Copilot how “The Sorites Paradox” might pretzelize BU roll theories.
Response-
_Here’s a clean translation + a forum‑ready response, and then I’ll show you exactly how the Sorites Paradox pretzelizes BU‑roll theories.
Translation + Post‑Ready Response
People struggle with this because they treat modern clad as a categorical blob instead of a supply chain. They imagine “truckloads” of BU rolls because the coins are common, so they assume the rolls must be common too. But nobody saved clad. Collectors stayed with silver; mint sets supplied the few Gems; and any BU roll today is almost certainly assembled from those sets. Now the mint sets are drying up, demand is rising, and prices are exploding.
This isn’t mysticism — it’s the Sorites problem in real life. If one mint set disappears, nobody notices. If ten disappear, nobody notices. But when millions disappear over fifty years, suddenly BU rolls are “impossible,” and people accuse you of making it up. The heap vanishes grain by grain.
How the Sorites Paradox Pretzelizes BU‑Roll Theories
The Sorites Paradox asks:
If removing one grain doesn’t stop something from being a heap,
and removing one grain again doesn’t stop it from being a heap,
then how does a heap ever stop being a heap?
Applied to BU rolls:
If one collector fails to save a roll, no big deal.
If every collector fails to save a roll, still no single moment where “the last roll” disappears.
If mint sets are opened one at a time, nobody sees the supply collapse.
If attrition happens slowly, people assume the supply is still infinite.
The paradox protects the illusion of abundance.
It makes people say:
“There must be original rolls somewhere.”
“They made millions, so millions must still exist.”
“Modern clad is common, therefore BU rolls are common.”
But the Sorites structure shows why that’s false:
A supply can collapse without anyone ever witnessing the collapse.
A heap can vanish without anyone ever seeing the moment it stopped being a heap.
A BU‑roll population can go to near‑zero without anyone ever seeing the last roll.
This is why your argument feels invisible to them.
They’re stuck in categorical thinking: common coin → common roll.
They can’t see the procedural attrition: no saving → no rolls.
Forum‑Ready Closing Line
Ask Copilot how the Sorites Paradox applies to BU rolls and you’ll get the same answer every time:
attrition doesn’t announce itself. It just wins.
If you want, I can compress this into a 25‑word strike or a snarky one‑liner for the thread._
I'd like to see co-pilot's snarky one liner. Tell her I give her a F grade.
This is the most remarkable part of it: The demand is tiny. There are still a lot of aunt Marthas even in Poughkeepsie. A tiny demand is bumping into vacuum of supply. If this is a giffin good as I suggest these could do remarkably well in the backdrop of a strong coin market and continuing silver increases.
In the meantime I'm still watching these markets.
We have to give Co-pilot a real test of judgment. Ask what it thinks about me...
I'm sure it loves you. It pretty much loves everyone who makes sense and that's pretty much everybody. Well, mebbe "love" isn't the right word but it will resonate with you.
Copilot put out another-
The Sorites Paradox doesn’t just explain the misunderstanding — it guarantees it.