I'll be on line at WFOM -early bird passes.
Last time for the Flowing Hair Gold in Baltimore they had more than enough coins - even though they went dark online in 7 mins, you could get one at the show all afternoon.
@coiner said:
I'll be on line at WFOM -early bird passes.
Last time for the Flowing Hair Gold in Baltimore they had more than enough coins - even though they went dark online in 7 mins, you could get one at the show all afternoon.
I hope that's the case here.
Wish I could have been there.
I was out of state , but I still lucked out pulling over and exactly the right time , and just getting one immediately online. I love that issue - one of my all-time favorites!
Did u stand in line for 4 hours from early bird entry until noon?
Congratulations @Raufus to you, your family and your son. You are obviously delighted and you also know how tough these years will be for everyone involved.
I purchased the FH gold online and it was fairly easy to do since I logged in a few minutes before the release. If you get an extra 1804 or two then you should have no trouble, I'd imagine, flipping it on these forums. If I get shut out on the day of the sale I might also look at the BST for a coin as I think it would go well with the 1794.
I’ve confirmed that the DC mint gift store will have this set in stock the day of release. Better be there early. They open at 10am but still release at noon. I bought the first 3 sets there.
Successful deals with Weather11am, waverlycoins and Gothat3rs
Did u stand in line for 4 hours from early bird entry until noon?
Yes - went right to the Mint booth and stood in line at 8:30am early bird entry. Probably about 25-30 ahead of me for the Flowing Hair Gold release.
The worst lines are the grading services after the Mint release - thats where you stand in line for an hour plus as well.
@TomB said:
Congratulations @Raufus to you, your family and your son. You are obviously delighted and you also know how tough these years will be for everyone involved.
I purchased the FH gold online and it was fairly easy to do since I logged in a few minutes before the release. If you get an extra 1804 or two then you should have no trouble, I'd imagine, flipping it on these forums. If I get shut out on the day of the sale I might also look at the BST for a coin as I think it would go well with the 1794.
@Bundles84 said:
I’ve confirmed that the DC mint gift store will have this set in stock the day of release. Better be there early. They open at 10am but still release at noon. I bought the first 3 sets there.
Did u stand in line for 4 hours from early bird entry until noon?
Yes - went right to the Mint booth and stood in line at 8:30am early bird entry. Probably about 25-30 ahead of me for the Flowing Hair Gold release.
The worst lines are the grading services after the Mint release - thats where you stand in line for an hour plus as well.
The good part about sitting on that line is there are others that have been at this game for many years - its interesting to hear their stories....
I just hope we dont have anything like a repeat of the Kennedy Gold release --- from what I understand that was a rediculous line at the show.....stupid crazy long line.
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
Any thoughts on the pricing? Wondering how much premium the mint will add to the pricing grid.
The current grid pricing with gold where it stands today is $5590 to $5640
The current march on the weekly avg. gold increase is just in time for the BOM4 release...of course.
OK, I was going by what the site says the 50c and qtr are priced at, ... 2775 and 1527.50. The column for 1 oz BoM gold + medal at that row indicates 5240. But I suppose gold rose that much? YOW. Surprised they didnt revise the other prices.
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
Any thoughts on the pricing? Wondering how much premium the mint will add to the pricing grid.
The current grid pricing with gold where it stands today is $5590 to $5640
The current march on the weekly avg. gold increase is just in time for the BOM4 release...of course.
OK, I was going by what the site says the 50c and qtr are priced at, ... 2775 and 1527.50. The column for 1 oz BoM gold + medal at that row indicates 5240. But I suppose gold rose that much? YOW. Surprised they didnt revise the other prices.
There is nothing to revise. Revisions happen every Wednesday. The 1 oz is not on sale yet.
@mbr33 was just telling us what the price would be, if it was on sale today, based on today's gold price. The others will surely be priced higher sometime Wednesday, unless gold drops a lot between now and then.
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
Any thoughts on the pricing? Wondering how much premium the mint will add to the pricing grid.
The current grid pricing with gold where it stands today is $5590 to $5640
The current march on the weekly avg. gold increase is just in time for the BOM4 release...of course.
OK, I was going by what the site says the 50c and qtr are priced at, ... 2775 and 1527.50. The column for 1 oz BoM gold + medal at that row indicates 5240. But I suppose gold rose that much? YOW. Surprised they didnt revise the other prices.
There is nothing to revise. Revisions happen every Wednesday. The 1 oz is not on sale yet.
@mbr33 was just telling us what the price would be, if it was on sale today, based on today's gold price. The others will surely be priced lower sometime Wednesday, unless gold drops a lit between now and then.
I think you mean "higher" not lower.
Gold would have to drop under $3900 for there to not be an upward revision.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
Any thoughts on the pricing? Wondering how much premium the mint will add to the pricing grid.
The current grid pricing with gold where it stands today is $5590 to $5640
The current march on the weekly avg. gold increase is just in time for the BOM4 release...of course.
OK, I was going by what the site says the 50c and qtr are priced at, ... 2775 and 1527.50. The column for 1 oz BoM gold + medal at that row indicates 5240. But I suppose gold rose that much? YOW. Surprised they didnt revise the other prices.
There is nothing to revise. Revisions happen every Wednesday. The 1 oz is not on sale yet.
@mbr33 was just telling us what the price would be, if it was on sale today, based on today's gold price. The others will surely be priced lower sometime Wednesday, unless gold drops a lit between now and then.
I think you mean "higher" not lower.
Gold would have to drop under $3900 for there to not be an upward revision.
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
Any thoughts on the pricing? Wondering how much premium the mint will add to the pricing grid.
The current grid pricing with gold where it stands today is $5590 to $5640
The current march on the weekly avg. gold increase is just in time for the BOM4 release...of course.
OK, I was going by what the site says the 50c and qtr are priced at, ... 2775 and 1527.50. The column for 1 oz BoM gold + medal at that row indicates 5240. But I suppose gold rose that much? YOW. Surprised they didnt revise the other prices.
There is nothing to revise. Revisions happen every Wednesday. The 1 oz is not on sale yet.
@mbr33 was just telling us what the price would be, if it was on sale today, based on today's gold price. The others will surely be priced higher sometime Wednesday, unless gold drops a lot between now and then.
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
Any thoughts on the pricing? Wondering how much premium the mint will add to the pricing grid.
The current grid pricing with gold where it stands today is $5590 to $5640
The current march on the weekly avg. gold increase is just in time for the BOM4 release...of course.
OK, I was going by what the site says the 50c and qtr are priced at, ... 2775 and 1527.50. The column for 1 oz BoM gold + medal at that row indicates 5240. But I suppose gold rose that much? YOW. Surprised they didnt revise the other prices.
There is nothing to revise. Revisions happen every Wednesday. The 1 oz is not on sale yet.
@mbr33 was just telling us what the price would be, if it was on sale today, based on today's gold price. The others will surely be priced higher sometime Wednesday, unless gold drops a lot between now and then.
Yes. I checked the one ounce chart based solely on today’s price of gold per Oz when I read that post. That’s the ballpark figure IF gold stabilizes at today’s price. We can hope and pray for a drop, but there’s not a whole heck of a lot of time left.
Doesn't the Mint use a weekly average heading into Wednesday’s to price all gold offerings? BOM1 and BOM2 are destined to rise this week. Most likely by a few tiers on the chart.
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
Any thoughts on the pricing? Wondering how much premium the mint will add to the pricing grid.
The current grid pricing with gold where it stands today is $5590 to $5640
The current march on the weekly avg. gold increase is just in time for the BOM4 release...of course.
OK, I was going by what the site says the 50c and qtr are priced at, ... 2775 and 1527.50. The column for 1 oz BoM gold + medal at that row indicates 5240. But I suppose gold rose that much? YOW. Surprised they didnt revise the other prices.
There is nothing to revise. Revisions happen every Wednesday. The 1 oz is not on sale yet.
@mbr33 was just telling us what the price would be, if it was on sale today, based on today's gold price. The others will surely be priced higher sometime Wednesday, unless gold drops a lot between now and then.
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
Any thoughts on the pricing? Wondering how much premium the mint will add to the pricing grid.
The current grid pricing with gold where it stands today is $5590 to $5640
The current march on the weekly avg. gold increase is just in time for the BOM4 release...of course.
OK, I was going by what the site says the 50c and qtr are priced at, ... 2775 and 1527.50. The column for 1 oz BoM gold + medal at that row indicates 5240. But I suppose gold rose that much? YOW. Surprised they didnt revise the other prices.
There is nothing to revise. Revisions happen every Wednesday. The 1 oz is not on sale yet.
@mbr33 was just telling us what the price would be, if it was on sale today, based on today's gold price. The others will surely be priced higher sometime Wednesday, unless gold drops a lot between now and then.
Yes. I checked the one ounce chart based solely on today’s price of gold per Oz when I read that post. That’s the ballpark figure IF gold stabilizes at today’s price. We can hope and pray for a drop, but there’s not a whole heck of a lot of time left.
Doesn't the Mint use a weekly average heading into Wednesday’s to price all gold offerings? BOM1 and BOM2 are destined to rise this week. Most likely by a few tiers on the chart.
Correct. There is a somewhat complicated formula that looks at the average for the last week, the start price, the end price, etc. when determining the sale price for the next week. It's not just a straight average, rounded to the nearest $50 per ounce.
The only good news here, for those worried about being able to get BOM4, is that any increase in the Mint price will come right out of the pocket of people hoping to flip, and will therefore serve to suppress demand, at least a little. The bad news, of course, being we all have to pay more out of the gate. That said, I'm sure everyone would rather pay a little more to the Mint than a lot more to a flipper.
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
Any thoughts on the pricing? Wondering how much premium the mint will add to the pricing grid.
The current grid pricing with gold where it stands today is $5590 to $5640
The current march on the weekly avg. gold increase is just in time for the BOM4 release...of course.
OK, I was going by what the site says the 50c and qtr are priced at, ... 2775 and 1527.50. The column for 1 oz BoM gold + medal at that row indicates 5240. But I suppose gold rose that much? YOW. Surprised they didnt revise the other prices.
There is nothing to revise. Revisions happen every Wednesday. The 1 oz is not on sale yet.
@mbr33 was just telling us what the price would be, if it was on sale today, based on today's gold price. The others will surely be priced higher sometime Wednesday, unless gold drops a lot between now and then.
@Tomthemailcarrier said:
Any thoughts on the pricing? Wondering how much premium the mint will add to the pricing grid.
The current grid pricing with gold where it stands today is $5590 to $5640
The current march on the weekly avg. gold increase is just in time for the BOM4 release...of course.
OK, I was going by what the site says the 50c and qtr are priced at, ... 2775 and 1527.50. The column for 1 oz BoM gold + medal at that row indicates 5240. But I suppose gold rose that much? YOW. Surprised they didnt revise the other prices.
There is nothing to revise. Revisions happen every Wednesday. The 1 oz is not on sale yet.
@mbr33 was just telling us what the price would be, if it was on sale today, based on today's gold price. The others will surely be priced higher sometime Wednesday, unless gold drops a lot between now and then.
Yes. I checked the one ounce chart based solely on today’s price of gold per Oz when I read that post. That’s the ballpark figure IF gold stabilizes at today’s price. We can hope and pray for a drop, but there’s not a whole heck of a lot of time left.
Doesn't the Mint use a weekly average heading into Wednesday’s to price all gold offerings? BOM1 and BOM2 are destined to rise this week. Most likely by a few tiers on the chart.
Correct. There is a somewhat complicated formula that looks at the average for the last week, the start price, the end price, etc. when determining the sale price for the next week. It's not just a straight average, rounded to the nearest $50 per ounce.
The only good news here, for those worried about being able to get BOM4, is that any increase in the Mint price will come right out of the pocket of people hoping to flip, and will there serve to suppress demand, at least a little. The bad news, of course, being we all have to pay more out of the gate. That said, I'm sure everyone would rather pay a little more to the Mint than a lot more to a flipper.
Point well taken. Higher gold prices could help tamp down buyer club enthusiasm. Those offers should appear the week of the drop.
This Wednesday could see a 3, 4 or 5 tier rise in those earlier 3 sets. That should kill their non-existent demand off.
The good part about sitting on that line is there are others that have been at this game for many years - its interesting to hear their stories....
I just hope we dont have anything like a repeat of the Kennedy Gold release --- from what I understand that was a rediculous line at the show.....stupid crazy long line.
The good part about sitting on that line is there are others that have been at this game for many years - its interesting to hear their stories....
I just hope we dont have anything like a repeat of the Kennedy Gold release --- from what I understand that was a rediculous line at the show.....stupid crazy long line.
.
.
Yep...
.
.
I just don't see them tolerating this again. As I recall, after the Rosemont fiasco, they stopped releasing coins at ANA for a few years. Then COVID. Then things went back to "normal."
People are now expecting the worst with this, due pretty much solely to what happened with the silver Liberty Bells. We'll see, but this isn't that, both due to the mintage and the price point. But I honestly see them canceling sales at ANA, and just sending those coins to the website, if the alternative is homeless people camped out at the convention center overnight. TBD.
The good part about sitting on that line is there are others that have been at this game for many years - its interesting to hear their stories....
I just hope we dont have anything like a repeat of the Kennedy Gold release --- from what I understand that was a rediculous line at the show.....stupid crazy long line.
.
.
Yep...
.
.
I missed this party. What were the reasons for that fiasco back in 2014? Wouldn't a mintage of 75k (or was it 100k?) suppressed demand for it?
The good part about sitting on that line is there are others that have been at this game for many years - its interesting to hear their stories....
I just hope we dont have anything like a repeat of the Kennedy Gold release --- from what I understand that was a rediculous line at the show.....stupid crazy long line.
.
.
Yep...
.
.
I missed this party. What were the reasons for that fiasco back in 2014? Wouldn't a mintage of 75k (or was it 100k?) suppressed demand for it?
Not at $1,240 for 3/4 ounces of gold when gold was selling for around $1,300 per ounce. Back then, the Mint was a lot less obnoxious with respect to its numismatic pricing, and that was considered at the time to be a relatively low mintage for such a beloved coin in gold. That coin was very hot at release. Obviously, as you can see by the crowd.
The good part about sitting on that line is there are others that have been at this game for many years - its interesting to hear their stories....
I just hope we dont have anything like a repeat of the Kennedy Gold release --- from what I understand that was a rediculous line at the show.....stupid crazy long line.
.
.
Yep...
.
.
I missed this party. What were the reasons for that fiasco back in 2014? Wouldn't a mintage of 75k (or was it 100k?) suppressed demand for it?
Not at $1,240 for 3/4 ounces of gold when gold was selling for around $1,300 per ounce. Back then, the Mint was a lot less obnoxious with respect to its numismatic pricing, and that was considered at the time to be a relatively low mintage for such a beloved coin in gold. That coin was very hot at release. Obviously, as you can see by the crowd.
All that and now they are essentially spot in OGP.
The good part about sitting on that line is there are others that have been at this game for many years - its interesting to hear their stories....
I just hope we dont have anything like a repeat of the Kennedy Gold release --- from what I understand that was a rediculous line at the show.....stupid crazy long line.
.
.
Yep...
.
.
I missed this party. What were the reasons for that fiasco back in 2014? Wouldn't a mintage of 75k (or was it 100k?) suppressed demand for it?
Not at $1,240 for 3/4 ounces of gold when gold was selling for around $1,300 per ounce. Back then, the Mint was a lot less obnoxious with respect to its numismatic pricing, and that was considered at the time to be a relatively low mintage for such a beloved coin in gold. That coin was very hot at release. Obviously, as you can see by the crowd.
All that and now they are essentially spot in OGP.
Yeah, well, that might be worth keeping in mind as people twist themselves into pretzels over anything the Mint releases. Especially at the current premiums to spot.
Those Kennedys sold for a fraction of what they would sell for today, based on today's pricing grid. Basically, they were priced at $1,650 per ounce when gold was trading at $1,300 per ounce. Today, they would be priced at around $5,500 per ounce with gold trading at around $4,500 per ounce.
It's worth thinking about when you chase anything today, and goes a long way towards explaining why volumes are down across the board for everything the Mint currently produces. It's not just that the gross price is a lot higher than in the past. It's also that the gross premium is a lot higher, even if it is lower in percentage terms. Which it often is not.
The waiting room in photos. Looks like a similar amount of fun to the one on the website
Nope. It was FAR worse. Crime, defecating in the street. And it lasted for over 12 hours, as opposed to a few minutes.
Yes it was far worse. One of the mjaor dealers paid "actors" to stand in line and handed out prepaid visa cards set for the exact amount of the purchase at the end checkout point.
The buyers then handed over the coin and rec'd their payment.
The waiting room in photos. Looks like a similar amount of fun to the one on the website
Nope. It was FAR worse. Crime, defecating in the street. And it lasted for over 12 hours, as opposed to a few minutes.
Yes it was far worse. One of the mjaor dealers paid "actors" to stand in line and handed out prepaid visa cards set for the exact amount of the purchase at the end checkout point.
The buyers then handed over the coin and rec'd their payment.
The USM did nothing about it.
Total obvious violation of HHL.
That is not a violation of the HHL. It's no different then me posting a bid on the BST and you buying a coin to sell me.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@coiner said:
If I saw that process happening in front of me - and I was in charge, I would have shut that guy down immediately.
Right. I doubt the Mint cares, because it generated buzz, news coverage, and sales. That said, it was a stain on the convention center and the ANA, and a strain on local law enforcement.
As I said before, I'm not sure that this release will lend itself to that kind of response. But, if it does, I will be very surprised if the ANA and the convention center tolerate it, as opposed to telling the Mint to cancel the sale. After 2014, it was years before the Mint scheduled releases for the ANA show.
The waiting room in photos. Looks like a similar amount of fun to the one on the website
Nope. It was FAR worse. Crime, defecating in the street. And it lasted for over 12 hours, as opposed to a few minutes.
Yes it was far worse. One of the mjaor dealers paid "actors" to stand in line and handed out prepaid visa cards set for the exact amount of the purchase at the end checkout point.
The buyers then handed over the coin and rec'd their payment.
The USM did nothing about it.
Total obvious violation of HHL.
That is not a violation of the HHL. It's no different then me posting a bid on the BST and you buying a coin to sell me.
Respectfully disagree. Since the straw buyers were not using their own funds for the initial purchase, it was very different from a BST transaction. What it is the same as is the F&F shill accounts people here set up to evade HHLs.
Oh, and it absolutely was a violation of the HHL. In person. Right in front of Mint personnel.
They tolerated it because they like the dealers. Not because they were protecting their HHL, or the rights under their rules of any actual consumer standing in that obnoxious line.
In hindsight, while the powers that be at the Mint likely salivated over what they thought would be good press coverage, it was an embarrassment to all involved. Which is why I really don't think it will be allowed to happen again. TBD, as I like to say.
The waiting room in photos. Looks like a similar amount of fun to the one on the website
Nope. It was FAR worse. Crime, defecating in the street. And it lasted for over 12 hours, as opposed to a few minutes.
Yes it was far worse. One of the mjaor dealers paid "actors" to stand in line and handed out prepaid visa cards set for the exact amount of the purchase at the end checkout point.
The buyers then handed over the coin and rec'd their payment.
The USM did nothing about it.
Total obvious violation of HHL.
That is not a violation of the HHL. It's no different then me posting a bid on the BST and you buying a coin to sell me.
Respectfully disagree. Since the straw buyers were not using their own funds for the initial purchase, it was very different from a BST transaction. What it is the same as is the F&F shill accounts people here set up to evade HHLs.
Oh, and it absolutely was a violation of the HHL. In person. Right in front of Mint personnel.
They tolerated it because they like the dealers. Not because they were protecting their HHL, or the rights under their rules of any actual consumer standing in that obnoxious line.
In hindsight, while the powers that be at the Mint likely salivated over what they thought would be good press coverage, it was an embarrassment to all involved. Which is why I really don't think it will be allowed to happen again. TBD, as I like to say.
The waiting room in photos. Looks like a similar amount of fun to the one on the website
Nope. It was FAR worse. Crime, defecating in the street. And it lasted for over 12 hours, as opposed to a few minutes.
Yes it was far worse. One of the mjaor dealers paid "actors" to stand in line and handed out prepaid visa cards set for the exact amount of the purchase at the end checkout point.
The buyers then handed over the coin and rec'd their payment.
The USM did nothing about it.
Total obvious violation of HHL.
That is not a violation of the HHL. It's no different then me posting a bid on the BST and you buying a coin to sell me.
Respectfully disagree. Since the straw buyers were not using their own funds for the initial purchase, it was very different from a BST transaction. What it is the same as is the F&F shill accounts people here set up to evade HHLs.
Oh, and it absolutely was a violation of the HHL. In person. Right in front of Mint personnel.
They tolerated it because they like the dealers. Not because they were protecting their HHL, or the rights under their rules of any actual consumer standing in that obnoxious line.
In hindsight, while the powers that be at the Mint likely salivated over what they thought would be good press coverage, it was an embarrassment to all involved. Which is why I really don't think it will be allowed to happen again. TBD, as I like to say.
I can't say as I agree. If I go to a baseball game where bobbleheads are being given out with a limit of one and buy extra tickets and recruit people to stand in line, give me the bobblehead, and enjoy the game on me, am I in violation? The same as offering to buy the limited coin, bobblehead, or whatever item, from someone else in line to get more. A separate person in line is a unique "household". Would I like it if I saw it happening if I were in line for BOM4? No, but I don't see it as a violation of the household limit.
It's interesting how many on this forum think that this action in 2014 was appropriate.
It wasn't. The USM shouldn't have tolerated it.
I know first hand how the mint reacts when trying to "corner" or obtain a significant position in a product. A number of years ago a small group of (us) collectors would follow certain products throughout the year - only to hop in and buy remaining quantities very late in the year or at "last chance sales".
We DID have some of our orders cancelled. No reason other than "We want a wider distribution of our product" "we (USM) can limit quantities to achieve that goal"
So - in retrospect, we were acting completely in the open, with no HHL, at a last chance sale, and we got limited and orders cancelled by the USM.
They should have done the same during the 2014 Gold Kennedy fiasco. The USM tolerated for just one reason - they favor the dealers.
The waiting room in photos. Looks like a similar amount of fun to the one on the website
Nope. It was FAR worse. Crime, defecating in the street. And it lasted for over 12 hours, as opposed to a few minutes.
Yes it was far worse. One of the mjaor dealers paid "actors" to stand in line and handed out prepaid visa cards set for the exact amount of the purchase at the end checkout point.
The buyers then handed over the coin and rec'd their payment.
The USM did nothing about it.
Total obvious violation of HHL.
That is not a violation of the HHL. It's no different then me posting a bid on the BST and you buying a coin to sell me.
Respectfully disagree. Since the straw buyers were not using their own funds for the initial purchase, it was very different from a BST transaction. What it is the same as is the F&F shill accounts people here set up to evade HHLs.
Oh, and it absolutely was a violation of the HHL. In person. Right in front of Mint personnel.
They tolerated it because they like the dealers. Not because they were protecting their HHL, or the rights under their rules of any actual consumer standing in that obnoxious line.
In hindsight, while the powers that be at the Mint likely salivated over what they thought would be good press coverage, it was an embarrassment to all involved. Which is why I really don't think it will be allowed to happen again. TBD, as I like to say.
That's fine. I'm happy to leave it as a respectful a disagreement.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The waiting room in photos. Looks like a similar amount of fun to the one on the website
Nope. It was FAR worse. Crime, defecating in the street. And it lasted for over 12 hours, as opposed to a few minutes.
Yes it was far worse. One of the mjaor dealers paid "actors" to stand in line and handed out prepaid visa cards set for the exact amount of the purchase at the end checkout point.
The buyers then handed over the coin and rec'd their payment.
The USM did nothing about it.
Total obvious violation of HHL.
That is not a violation of the HHL. It's no different then me posting a bid on the BST and you buying a coin to sell me.
Respectfully disagree. Since the straw buyers were not using their own funds for the initial purchase, it was very different from a BST transaction. What it is the same as is the F&F shill accounts people here set up to evade HHLs.
Oh, and it absolutely was a violation of the HHL. In person. Right in front of Mint personnel.
They tolerated it because they like the dealers. Not because they were protecting their HHL, or the rights under their rules of any actual consumer standing in that obnoxious line.
In hindsight, while the powers that be at the Mint likely salivated over what they thought would be good press coverage, it was an embarrassment to all involved. Which is why I really don't think it will be allowed to happen again. TBD, as I like to say.
I can't say as I agree. If I go to a baseball game where bobbleheads are being given out with a limit of one and buy extra tickets and recruit people to stand in line, give me the bobblehead, and enjoy the game on me, am I in violation? The same as offering to buy the limited coin, bobblehead, or whatever item, from someone else in line to get more. A separate person in line is a unique "household". Would I like it if I saw it happening if I were in line for BOM4? No, but I don't see it as a violation of the household limit.
Sorry, but it's a strained analogy. For starters, those bobble heads are one per ticket, not one per person. So you wouldn't even need to recruit people. You could just buy 20 tickets and go through the turnstile 20 times. No one would care. It would be the same if the team only allowed you to buy one ticket to the game, and if you then gave people money to buy multiple tickets for you. But that's not the case, and you know it.
This is different. It would be what @jmlanzaf is saying it was if the homeless people put the coins on their own credit cards, and then turned around and flipped them to dealers. But that's not what happened.
Because the homeless didn't have money to buy the coins, and the dealers didn't trust them with cash. So the dealers handed them prepaid cards, and then collected the coins and gave the homeless their bounties, right in front of the Mint booth.
I'm telling you, what this is the same as is what people here do with multiple online Mint accounts. But that is not done in person, right in front of Mint personnel. And, it is difficult to detect.
And, no matter how clever some here might think they are, it IS actually a violation of the HHL. That is why the Mint is so adamant about trying the shut the buyers clubs down. In addition to disrupting the website with the bot traffic, they are violating the HHLs. As were dealers before the Mint created the ABPP program in order to stop it by giving dealers a carve out in return.
You can parse and twist and turn all you want, but if you are directing straw buyers to purchase on your behalf, no matter whose money is being used for the initial purchase, you are violating a HHL. And that is a very different thing from buying in an arm's length transaction from a flipper in the secondary market.
So the only way to get an 1804 is to take on the bots in the hour long waiting room? I suspect this one will sell out in minutes, if we can even get to the purchase button. Any tea on how we can out smart the bots?
also struggling w website strategy, mostly because my bank loves to block large purchases - even if i give them a heads up >.<
my current plan is to give the paypal method a shot, ive just never made a lightning fast release day purchase using paypal so fear it may complicate the checkout process for me
I was there in Chicago for the 2014 show. I brought my dad with me, and we barely made the cutoff to get a coin. Almost missed it, because when we got in line he realized he left his badge in the car and we had to run back to get it. Sold our coins at the show for $3,000 each I believe. I don’t agree that any rules were broken by hiring people to stand in line. It was a mess, but I would have brought more people with me had I realized we could sell for so much profit five minutes after buying.
well - I wouldnt think the upside on these 1804 Golds will be as significant as the 2014 Kennedy or the 2026 Silver Bells; I would expect a much smaller crowd.
If the ABPP players have enough to satisfy initial demand, their buy prices will be probably a couple hundred over USM cost, not enough to entice those to stand in line for hours
@coiner said:
well - I wouldnt think the upside on these 1804 Golds will be as significant as the 2014 Kennedy or the 2026 Silver Bells; I would expect a much smaller crowd.
If the ABPP players have enough to satisfy initial demand, their buy prices will be probably a couple hundred over USM cost, not enough to entice those to stand in line for hours
I have already stated a number of reasons why I do not think there will be a frenzy for these, but being unable to entice a homeless person to stand in a line for hours for $100 cash, let alone "a couple hundred," is not among them.
@coiner said:
well - I wouldnt think the upside on these 1804 Golds will be as significant as the 2014 Kennedy or the 2026 Silver Bells; I would expect a much smaller crowd.
If the ABPP players have enough to satisfy initial demand, their buy prices will be probably a couple hundred over USM cost, not enough to entice those to stand in line for hours
I have already stated a number of reasons why I do not think there will be a frenzy for these, but being unable to entice a homeless person to stand in a line for hours for $100 cash, let alone "a couple hundred," is not among them.
I'm pretty sure I could entice a homeless person to stand in line for $100.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@coiner said:
well - I wouldnt think the upside on these 1804 Golds will be as significant as the 2014 Kennedy or the 2026 Silver Bells; I would expect a much smaller crowd.
If the ABPP players have enough to satisfy initial demand, their buy prices will be probably a couple hundred over USM cost, not enough to entice those to stand in line for hours
I have already stated a number of reasons why I do not think there will be a frenzy for these, but being unable to entice a homeless person to stand in a line for hours for $100 cash, let alone "a couple hundred," is not among them.
I'm pretty sure I could entice a homeless person to stand in line for $100.
Yes. That's what I said. "Being unable to entice a homeless person to stand in line for $100" is NOT among the reasons I don't think this will be a repeat of 2014. The magic of double negatives!
Comments
I'll be on line at WFOM -early bird passes.
Last time for the Flowing Hair Gold in Baltimore they had more than enough coins - even though they went dark online in 7 mins, you could get one at the show all afternoon.
I hope that's the case here.
Wish I could have been there.
I was out of state , but I still lucked out pulling over and exactly the right time , and just getting one immediately online. I love that issue - one of my all-time favorites!
Did u stand in line for 4 hours from early bird entry until noon?
Congratulations @Raufus to you, your family and your son. You are obviously delighted and you also know how tough these years will be for everyone involved.
I purchased the FH gold online and it was fairly easy to do since I logged in a few minutes before the release. If you get an extra 1804 or two then you should have no trouble, I'd imagine, flipping it on these forums. If I get shut out on the day of the sale I might also look at the BST for a coin as I think it would go well with the 1794.
Good luck!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I’ve confirmed that the DC mint gift store will have this set in stock the day of release. Better be there early. They open at 10am but still release at noon. I bought the first 3 sets there.
Successful deals with Weather11am, waverlycoins and Gothat3rs
Yes - went right to the Mint booth and stood in line at 8:30am early bird entry. Probably about 25-30 ahead of me for the Flowing Hair Gold release.
The worst lines are the grading services after the Mint release - thats where you stand in line for an hour plus as well.
Thanks, Tom!! Most appreciated!
Thanks!
What time did u get in line?
How did you confirm?
Thanks for the info!!
ATS this morning is 9700
Any thoughts on the pricing? Wondering how much premium the mint will add to the pricing grid.
The good part about sitting on that line is there are others that have been at this game for many years - its interesting to hear their stories....
I just hope we dont have anything like a repeat of the Kennedy Gold release --- from what I understand that was a rediculous line at the show.....stupid crazy long line.
The current grid pricing with gold where it stands today is $5590 to $5640
The current march on the weekly avg. gold increase is just in time for the BOM4 release...of course.
Boom...we win.
.....and will probably continue thru BOM5.
OK, I was going by what the site says the 50c and qtr are priced at, ... 2775 and 1527.50. The column for 1 oz BoM gold + medal at that row indicates 5240. But I suppose gold rose that much? YOW. Surprised they didnt revise the other prices.
There is nothing to revise. Revisions happen every Wednesday. The 1 oz is not on sale yet.
@mbr33 was just telling us what the price would be, if it was on sale today, based on today's gold price. The others will surely be priced higher sometime Wednesday, unless gold drops a lot between now and then.
I think you mean "higher" not lower.
Gold would have to drop under $3900 for there to not be an upward revision.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Correct. My bad!
Yes. I checked the one ounce chart based solely on today’s price of gold per Oz when I read that post. That’s the ballpark figure IF gold stabilizes at today’s price. We can hope and pray for a drop, but there’s not a whole heck of a lot of time left.
Doesn't the Mint use a weekly average heading into Wednesday’s to price all gold offerings? BOM1 and BOM2 are destined to rise this week. Most likely by a few tiers on the chart.
Correct. There is a somewhat complicated formula that looks at the average for the last week, the start price, the end price, etc. when determining the sale price for the next week. It's not just a straight average, rounded to the nearest $50 per ounce.
The only good news here, for those worried about being able to get BOM4, is that any increase in the Mint price will come right out of the pocket of people hoping to flip, and will therefore serve to suppress demand, at least a little. The bad news, of course, being we all have to pay more out of the gate. That said, I'm sure everyone would rather pay a little more to the Mint than a lot more to a flipper.
Point well taken. Higher gold prices could help tamp down buyer club enthusiasm. Those offers should appear the week of the drop.
This Wednesday could see a 3, 4 or 5 tier rise in those earlier 3 sets. That should kill their non-existent demand off.
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Yep...
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I just don't see them tolerating this again. As I recall, after the Rosemont fiasco, they stopped releasing coins at ANA for a few years. Then COVID. Then things went back to "normal."
People are now expecting the worst with this, due pretty much solely to what happened with the silver Liberty Bells. We'll see, but this isn't that, both due to the mintage and the price point. But I honestly see them canceling sales at ANA, and just sending those coins to the website, if the alternative is homeless people camped out at the convention center overnight. TBD.
The waiting room in photos. Looks like a similar amount of fun to the one on the website
I missed this party. What were the reasons for that fiasco back in 2014? Wouldn't a mintage of 75k (or was it 100k?) suppressed demand for it?
Nope. It was FAR worse. Crime, defecating in the street. And it lasted for over 12 hours, as opposed to a few minutes.
Not at $1,240 for 3/4 ounces of gold when gold was selling for around $1,300 per ounce. Back then, the Mint was a lot less obnoxious with respect to its numismatic pricing, and that was considered at the time to be a relatively low mintage for such a beloved coin in gold. That coin was very hot at release. Obviously, as you can see by the crowd.
All that and now they are essentially spot in OGP.
Yeah, well, that might be worth keeping in mind as people twist themselves into pretzels over anything the Mint releases. Especially at the current premiums to spot.
Those Kennedys sold for a fraction of what they would sell for today, based on today's pricing grid. Basically, they were priced at $1,650 per ounce when gold was trading at $1,300 per ounce. Today, they would be priced at around $5,500 per ounce with gold trading at around $4,500 per ounce.
It's worth thinking about when you chase anything today, and goes a long way towards explaining why volumes are down across the board for everything the Mint currently produces. It's not just that the gross price is a lot higher than in the past. It's also that the gross premium is a lot higher, even if it is lower in percentage terms. Which it often is not.
Yes it was far worse. One of the mjaor dealers paid "actors" to stand in line and handed out prepaid visa cards set for the exact amount of the purchase at the end checkout point.
The buyers then handed over the coin and rec'd their payment.
The USM did nothing about it.
Total obvious violation of HHL.
If I saw that process happening in front of me - and I was in charge, I would have shut that guy down immediately.
https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/dealers-pay-homeless-to-stand-in-line-for-gold-collectors-coin/
https://coinweek.com/dealers-hire-homeless-army-spouses-stand-line-gold-kennedy-half/
This is the nonsense going on back in 2014.
That is not a violation of the HHL. It's no different then me posting a bid on the BST and you buying a coin to sell me.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Right. I doubt the Mint cares, because it generated buzz, news coverage, and sales. That said, it was a stain on the convention center and the ANA, and a strain on local law enforcement.
As I said before, I'm not sure that this release will lend itself to that kind of response. But, if it does, I will be very surprised if the ANA and the convention center tolerate it, as opposed to telling the Mint to cancel the sale. After 2014, it was years before the Mint scheduled releases for the ANA show.
Respectfully disagree. Since the straw buyers were not using their own funds for the initial purchase, it was very different from a BST transaction. What it is the same as is the F&F shill accounts people here set up to evade HHLs.
Oh, and it absolutely was a violation of the HHL. In person. Right in front of Mint personnel.
They tolerated it because they like the dealers. Not because they were protecting their HHL, or the rights under their rules of any actual consumer standing in that obnoxious line.
In hindsight, while the powers that be at the Mint likely salivated over what they thought would be good press coverage, it was an embarrassment to all involved. Which is why I really don't think it will be allowed to happen again. TBD, as I like to say.
1000% agree.
I can't say as I agree. If I go to a baseball game where bobbleheads are being given out with a limit of one and buy extra tickets and recruit people to stand in line, give me the bobblehead, and enjoy the game on me, am I in violation? The same as offering to buy the limited coin, bobblehead, or whatever item, from someone else in line to get more. A separate person in line is a unique "household". Would I like it if I saw it happening if I were in line for BOM4? No, but I don't see it as a violation of the household limit.
It's interesting how many on this forum think that this action in 2014 was appropriate.
It wasn't. The USM shouldn't have tolerated it.
I know first hand how the mint reacts when trying to "corner" or obtain a significant position in a product. A number of years ago a small group of (us) collectors would follow certain products throughout the year - only to hop in and buy remaining quantities very late in the year or at "last chance sales".
We DID have some of our orders cancelled. No reason other than "We want a wider distribution of our product" "we (USM) can limit quantities to achieve that goal"
So - in retrospect, we were acting completely in the open, with no HHL, at a last chance sale, and we got limited and orders cancelled by the USM.
They should have done the same during the 2014 Gold Kennedy fiasco. The USM tolerated for just one reason - they favor the dealers.
L> @NJCoin said:
That's fine. I'm happy to leave it as a respectful a disagreement.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Sorry, but it's a strained analogy. For starters, those bobble heads are one per ticket, not one per person. So you wouldn't even need to recruit people. You could just buy 20 tickets and go through the turnstile 20 times. No one would care. It would be the same if the team only allowed you to buy one ticket to the game, and if you then gave people money to buy multiple tickets for you. But that's not the case, and you know it.
This is different. It would be what @jmlanzaf is saying it was if the homeless people put the coins on their own credit cards, and then turned around and flipped them to dealers. But that's not what happened.
Because the homeless didn't have money to buy the coins, and the dealers didn't trust them with cash. So the dealers handed them prepaid cards, and then collected the coins and gave the homeless their bounties, right in front of the Mint booth.
I'm telling you, what this is the same as is what people here do with multiple online Mint accounts. But that is not done in person, right in front of Mint personnel. And, it is difficult to detect.
And, no matter how clever some here might think they are, it IS actually a violation of the HHL. That is why the Mint is so adamant about trying the shut the buyers clubs down. In addition to disrupting the website with the bot traffic, they are violating the HHLs. As were dealers before the Mint created the ABPP program in order to stop it by giving dealers a carve out in return.
You can parse and twist and turn all you want, but if you are directing straw buyers to purchase on your behalf, no matter whose money is being used for the initial purchase, you are violating a HHL. And that is a very different thing from buying in an arm's length transaction from a flipper in the secondary market.
So the only way to get an 1804 is to take on the bots in the hour long waiting room? I suspect this one will sell out in minutes, if we can even get to the purchase button. Any tea on how we can out smart the bots?
also struggling w website strategy, mostly because my bank loves to block large purchases - even if i give them a heads up >.<
my current plan is to give the paypal method a shot, ive just never made a lightning fast release day purchase using paypal so fear it may complicate the checkout process for me
any reccos welcome
I think paypal is faster than CC since you don't have to enter your 3 digit security code.
ah thats awesome I would have assumed paypal would be slower as it's 3rd party to mint checkout - ty!
I was there in Chicago for the 2014 show. I brought my dad with me, and we barely made the cutoff to get a coin. Almost missed it, because when we got in line he realized he left his badge in the car and we had to run back to get it. Sold our coins at the show for $3,000 each I believe. I don’t agree that any rules were broken by hiring people to stand in line. It was a mess, but I would have brought more people with me had I realized we could sell for so much profit five minutes after buying.
well - I wouldnt think the upside on these 1804 Golds will be as significant as the 2014 Kennedy or the 2026 Silver Bells; I would expect a much smaller crowd.
If the ABPP players have enough to satisfy initial demand, their buy prices will be probably a couple hundred over USM cost, not enough to entice those to stand in line for hours
I have already stated a number of reasons why I do not think there will be a frenzy for these, but being unable to entice a homeless person to stand in a line for hours for $100 cash, let alone "a couple hundred," is not among them.
I agree. I dont think this will be a tough one to obtain.
I'm pretty sure I could entice a homeless person to stand in line for $100.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Yes. That's what I said. "Being unable to entice a homeless person to stand in line for $100" is NOT among the reasons I don't think this will be a repeat of 2014. The magic of double negatives!