Gold CAC Question
I'm a big fan of CAC, but I have to admit I'm confused by the premiums people are paying for gold CAC coins.
A gold sticker means CAC thinks it would upgrade at least a grade from the current holder and still green sticker. The coin can still be ugly or have a below average strike, because the sticker is a commentary on the grade of the current holder, not the coin.
So the way I see it - people who collect gold CAC stickered coins are just trying to collect coins that were under graded the first time.
I'm curious to hear from people who actively collect gold CACs as to what the appeal to them is.
Edited to clarify:
-I understand why people who collect old holders send those to CAC to sticker - it provides the upgrade benefit without losing the holder.
-I understand paying 65 money for a 64 gold CAC.
-What I dont get is the people actively only buying gold CAC's for a set (and likely paying well over a 1 grade premium). Those are the opinions I am trying to understand.
Comments
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There's multiple reasons why people collect Gold CAC coins. Partly, it is simply the fact that they are gold CAC coins.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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Why does it matter to you what or how anyone else collects?
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"The coin can still be ugly or have a below average strike, "because the sticker is a commentary on the grade of the current holder, not the coin."
I disagree with that opinion. The sticker is a commentary on the grade of the coin, not the holder.
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@Rc5280 said:
"The coin can still be ugly or have a below average strike, "because the sticker is a commentary on the grade of the current holder, not the coin."I disagree with that opinion. The sticker is a commentary on the grade of the coin, not the holder.
The sticker is a commentary of the grade of the coin vs. the grade on the holder. If the coin is a 65 (to CAC), and the holder says 64, gold sticker. Crack that same coin out and get it into a 66 holder, CAC doesnt sticker it. Same exact coin....but its the grade on the holder that determines the sticker....
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@coinbuf said:
Why does it matter to you what or how anyone else collects?You can in fact be curious why people do things without trying to tell them its right or wrong or change them.
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Do you understand why people will sometimes pay big premiums for rattlers and doilies?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.0 -
@MrEureka said:
Do you understand why people will sometimes pay big premiums for rattlers and doilies?I do. There is a fixed supply of them, and people like the history of it. Gold CAC's on the other hand can be made from coins graded from a TPG this year if the coin was undergraded....
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Does a gold CAC sticker on a PCGS slab mean that CAC disagrees with the PCGS grade assigned to the coin and that they think the coin is undergraded? If so, why do so many people assume that CAC is right and PCGS must be wrong? Is it possible that PCGS got it right and CAC is overgrading the coin?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire1 -
@PerryHall said:
Does a gold CAC sticker on a PCGS slab mean that CAC disagrees with the PCGS grade assigned to the coin and that they think the coin is undergraded? If so, why do so many people assume that CAC is right and PCGS must be wrong? Is it possible that PCGS got it right and CAC is overgrading the coin?Possible? Yes. Likely? No.
If SEGS grades a coin MS68 and PCGS grades the same coin MS66, is it possible that SEGS got it right and PCGS got it wrong? Sure. Is it likely? No.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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A gold bean just tells me that its got excellant detail and quality. Its a good thing 👍
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I think the OP has raised a legitimate question. I ve sold a number of gold beaned coins at the next grade up to dealers who are flipping to buyers who believe they could maybe / possibly / hopefully win the lottery if they pay a big premium for the gold bean and then the coin upgrades 2+ notches.
In the end, anything that is scarce will be coveted by the masses until it isn't. It's a competition to acquire something before someone else gets it. I will keep selling into the tulip mania.
Dr Mikey
Commems and Early Type2 -
@johnny9434 said:
A gold bean just tells me that its got excellant detail and quality. Its a good thing 👍A coin doesn’t need to have “excellent detail” in order to receive a gold CAC sticker. Think about circulated coins with gold stickers and even lower grade MS and PF coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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@humanssuck said:
@Rc5280 said:
"The coin can still be ugly or have a below average strike, "because the sticker is a commentary on the grade of the current holder, not the coin."I disagree with that opinion. The sticker is a commentary on the grade of the coin, not the holder.
The sticker is a commentary of the grade of the coin vs. the grade on the holder. If the coin is a 65 (to CAC), and the holder says 64, gold sticker. Crack that same coin out and get it into a 66 holder, CAC doesnt sticker it. Same exact coin....but its the grade on the holder that determines the sticker....
If a coin is graded 64 and it’s a 65 to CAC, it doesn’t automatically receive a gold sticker. In order for that to occur, CAC has to think the coin is a high-end 65 or better.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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@MFeld said:
@johnny9434 said:
A gold bean just tells me that its got excellant detail and quality. Its a good thing 👍A coin doesn’t need to have “excellent detail” in order to receive a gold CAC sticker. Think about circulated coins with gold stickers and even lower grade MS and PF coins.
A starting point with me and what's posted here
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“ I’m a big fan of CAC, have to admit I'm confused by the premiums people are paying for gold CAC coins.”
IMO many collectors clearly appreciate and respect JA’s grading acumen and opinions, he/they (CAC) seldom consider coins to to be of superior quality AND to be undergraded, and many collectors actively seek coins which meet both criteria. Supply/demand.I don’t think it’s any more complex than that, but perhaps I’m missing something.
Other passions include golf, Moto Guzzi motorcycles, and Euro motorcycles in general.
Chris2 -
@MFeld said:
@johnny9434 said:
A gold bean just tells me that its got excellant detail and quality. Its a good thing 👍A coin doesn’t need to have “excellent detail” in order to receive a gold CAC sticker. Think about circulated coins with gold stickers and even lower grade MS and PF coins.
Including Poor 1.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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The gold CAC thing is a hobbyist bragging rights kind of thing that players aggressively bid up. That the coin would actually grade higher (TPG submission) than the grade on the holder is yet to be determined.
Investor2 -
@Cougar1978 said:
That the coin would actually grade higher (TPG submission) than the grade on the holder is yet to be determined.That is incorrect. Since you are such a fan of CACG, surely you know that legacy gold sticker coins are guaranteed to upgrade at least one grade level if crossing to CACG.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
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When you calculate the premium paid for the gold sticker, you have to factor in the probability of a two grade jump
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Ive seen a few green cac coins that I wasnt fond of, too dark and or crusty or less eye appealing to me, but I have only ever seen one gold cac coin I didnt agree with the sticker, it was a three cent silver, beautiful color and visually eye-appealling, but a significant scratch imo should have negated the gold for sure.
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Collecting isn’t necessarily a financially or otherwise rational pastime. I obsess over the damnedest things when I collect.
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@Rc5280 said:
"The coin can still be ugly or have a below average strike, "because the sticker is a commentary on the grade of the current holder, not the coin."I disagree with that opinion. The sticker is a commentary on the grade of the coin, not the holder.
If you really want to split hairs, the sticker is a commentary on the grade of the coin in relation to the grade on the holder.
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If your collecting plastic or stickering, then pay the premium for an old holder or gold sticker. Most knowledgeable collectors pay premiums for higher quality coins. It really shouldn't matter how its holdered or stickered? I bought many third party graded coins and got coins upgraded or green/gold stickered in a holder.
Easton Collection2 -
@EastonCollection said:
If your collecting plastic or stickering, then pay the premium for an old holder or gold sticker. Most knowledgeable collectors pay premiums for higher quality coins. It really shouldn't matter how its holdered or stickered? I bought many third party graded coins and got coins upgraded or green/gold stickered in a holder.If “It really shouldn't matter how its holdered” then why “pay the premium for an old holder or gold sticker” ?
Far from all old holder coins are of particularly good quality for the grade.
And while many old holder and/or CAC coins are worth a premium, many aren’t worth the premium being asked for them.Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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@MrEureka said:
Do you understand why people will sometimes pay big premiums for rattlers and doilies?No. I don’t like rattlers because they rattle. Dollies are “so what’s” to me. I collect coins, not holders.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?2 -
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@MFeld said:
@EastonCollection said:
If your collecting plastic or stickering, then pay the premium for an old holder or gold sticker. Most knowledgeable collectors pay premiums for higher quality coins. It really shouldn't matter how its holdered or stickered? I bought many third party graded coins and got coins upgraded or green/gold stickered in a holder.If “It really shouldn't matter how its holdered” then why “pay the premium for an old holder or gold sticker” ?
Far from all old holder coins are of particularly good quality for the grade.
And while many old holder and/or CAC coins are worth a premium, many aren’t worth the premium being asked for them.I think he's saying that "plastic and sticker collectors" pay a premium but a KNOWLEDGEABLE coin collector would only ever pay for the coin.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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I sold the only gold CAC sticker coin I have ever owned because I decided I didn’t like coin after I really looked at it for a while. PCGS graded it EF-40. That was the correct net grade. It was an AU which had been brushed. It was hairlined.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?1 -
@jmlanzaf said:
@MFeld said:
@EastonCollection said:
If your collecting plastic or stickering, then pay the premium for an old holder or gold sticker. Most knowledgeable collectors pay premiums for higher quality coins. It really shouldn't matter how its holdered or stickered? I bought many third party graded coins and got coins upgraded or green/gold stickered in a holder.If “It really shouldn't matter how its holdered” then why “pay the premium for an old holder or gold sticker” ?
Far from all old holder coins are of particularly good quality for the grade.
And while many old holder and/or CAC coins are worth a premium, many aren’t worth the premium being asked for them.I think he's saying that "plastic and sticker collectors" pay a premium but a KNOWLEDGEABLE coin collector would only ever pay for the coin.
You can be knowledgeable and still be unrational. I've overpaid for a coin before even knowing I 'shouldn't' compared to guides.
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The value of a coin is the sum of the coin plus the holder plus the sticker. It’s not irrational to pay a premium for exactly what you want if you derive pleasure from owning exactly that combination
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@humanssuck said:
@jmlanzaf said:
@MFeld said:
@EastonCollection said:
If your collecting plastic or stickering, then pay the premium for an old holder or gold sticker. Most knowledgeable collectors pay premiums for higher quality coins. It really shouldn't matter how its holdered or stickered? I bought many third party graded coins and got coins upgraded or green/gold stickered in a holder.If “It really shouldn't matter how its holdered” then why “pay the premium for an old holder or gold sticker” ?
Far from all old holder coins are of particularly good quality for the grade.
And while many old holder and/or CAC coins are worth a premium, many aren’t worth the premium being asked for them.I think he's saying that "plastic and sticker collectors" pay a premium but a KNOWLEDGEABLE coin collector would only ever pay for the coin.
You can be knowledgeable and still be unrational. I've overpaid for a coin before even knowing I 'shouldn't' compared to guides.
I wasn't agreeing with him. I was just trying to decipher what he was saying.
I don't think it's irrational to pay a premium for something you want. Your money. Your call.
I think it's more irrational to think that everyone should do things your way, which is where this discussion often ends up.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@BillJones said:
@MrEureka said:
Do you understand why people will sometimes pay big premiums for rattlers and doilies?No. I don’t like rattlers because they rattle. Dollies are “so what’s” to me. I collect coins, not holders.
The world must seem a very strange place when you can only understand things from your own perspective. Remind me to never discuss politics with you.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.4 -
@MrEureka said:
@BillJones said:
@MrEureka said:
Do you understand why people will sometimes pay big premiums for rattlers and doilies?No. I don’t like rattlers because they rattle. Dollies are “so what’s” to me. I collect coins, not holders.
The world must seem a very strange place when you can only understand things from your own perspective. Remind me to never discuss politics with you.
You are absolutely right. I am narrow minded as hell.
If product does not please you, why are you required to consume it?
If you are a dealer, that’s another issue. Then only ethics come into play, like not selling counterfeits and over graded material had high prices.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?1 -
@PerryHall said:
Does a gold CAC sticker on a PCGS slab mean that CAC disagrees with the PCGS grade assigned to the coin and that they think the coin is undergraded? If so, why do so many people assume that CAC is right and PCGS must be wrong? Is it possible that PCGS got it right and CAC is overgrading the coin?I can’t speak for anyone else, but I would never assume that any grading or stickering company got it right. Heck, I wouldn’t even assume that I got it right, even after looking at the coin in hand. But we all do our best with whatever skills and information we have.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.6 -
@BillJones said:
@MrEureka said:
@BillJones said:
@MrEureka said:
Do you understand why people will sometimes pay big premiums for rattlers and doilies?No. I don’t like rattlers because they rattle. Dollies are “so what’s” to me. I collect coins, not holders.
The world must seem a very strange place when you can only understand things from your own perspective. Remind me to never discuss politics with you.
You are absolutely right. I am narrow minded as hell.
If product does not please you, why are you required to consume it?
If you are a dealer, that’s another issue. Then only ethics come into play, like not selling counterfeits and over graded material had high prices.
Nobody’s required to “consume” anything. Nobody’s required to sell anything. It’s pretty basic stuff.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.2 -
@MrEureka said:
Do you understand why people will sometimes pay big premiums for rattlers and doilies?Since this proved a difficult analogy for some people, I’ll clarify it. Rattlers, doilies and gold CAC stickers are scarce and have some novelty value, which makes them challenging and fun to collect. As for the premiums people are willing to pay for a gold sticker, obviously it varies. As it should.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.2 -
@MrEureka said:
@MrEureka said:
Do you understand why people will sometimes pay big premiums for rattlers and doilies?Since this proved a difficult analogy for some people, I’ll clarify it. Rattlers, doilies and gold CAC stickers are scarce and have some novelty value, which makes them challenging and fun to collect. As for the premiums people are willing to pay for a gold sticker, obviously it varies. As it should.
There was value at one time years ago for gold stickers. Now I see see MS 65 gold sticker 1938D Buffalos going for $500 in old holders when they are essentially a $50 coin. 10 times markup not for me personally.
3 -
My point is put a price for the coin. If its a gorgeous coin, then pay for a premium for it. Don't pay a premium just because its in an old holder or Gold CAC'd. If your going to pay a premium for a gorgeous coin, then great but if the coin has a gold CAC sticker, then you might have to pay more for it because others will want to pay more. Prior to 3rd party holding, then you need the knowledge of looking at the coin and valuing it. All I am saying is value the coin not the holder, unless you want to pay more for the holder or sticker. I don't pay more for holders or stickering.
Easton Collection2 -
@Walkerlover said:
@MrEureka said:
@MrEureka said:
Do you understand why people will sometimes pay big premiums for rattlers and doilies?Since this proved a difficult analogy for some people, I’ll clarify it. Rattlers, doilies and gold CAC stickers are scarce and have some novelty value, which makes them challenging and fun to collect. As for the premiums people are willing to pay for a gold sticker, obviously it varies. As it should.
There was value at one time years ago for gold stickers. Now I see see MS 65 gold sticker 1938D Buffalos going for $500 in old holders when they are essentially a $50 coin. 10 times markup not for me personally.
Same here. I don’t like the value at $500. But I can appreciate why some people feel differently.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.1 -
I find the whole idea of CAC silly in general - whether green or gold sticker. It’s “hey some guy looked at it and said it’s nice so I’m charging 30% more”. I miss the days you looked for nice coins rather than waiting for some guy to tell you it’s nice and automatically charging an arm and a leg more. It’s sort of ruining the hobby.
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I view gold stickers as "Error Stickers." The PCGS and NGC made an error. Errors are avidity collected.
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@humanssuck said:
A gold sticker means CAC thinks it would upgrade at least a grade from the current holder and still green sticker. The coin can still be uglyIt seems that when considering stickering a coin, JA looks at overall eye appeal as much as luster, strike, and surface preservation. Of course, beauty is subjective, but I have never seen a hands-down unattractive coin with a gold sticker.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled3 -
Premiums given gold CAC stickers are often unrelated to the coin. The stickers are essentially very expensive exonumia in these cases.
John
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution3 -
@Walkerlover said:
@MrEureka said:
@MrEureka said:
Do you understand why people will sometimes pay big premiums for rattlers and doilies?Since this proved a difficult analogy for some people, I’ll clarify it. Rattlers, doilies and gold CAC stickers are scarce and have some novelty value, which makes them challenging and fun to collect. As for the premiums people are willing to pay for a gold sticker, obviously it varies. As it should.
There was value at one time years ago for gold stickers. Now I see see MS 65 gold sticker 1938D Buffalos going for $500 in old holders when they are essentially a $50 coin. 10 times markup not for me personally.
I know what you are saying and I agree. When I go to a coin show and see a coin in a dealer's case that I might be interested in and then I see that it has a gold sticker, I don't even bother to ask to see it because I know that it will probably be priced at two grades higher than the grade assigned by the grading service. I don't collect stickers. I collect coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire2 -
@DisneyFan said:
I view gold stickers as "Error Stickers." The PCGS and NGC made an error. Errors are avidity collected.Why assume that PCGS got it wrong and CAC got it right? It's not like the profession coin graders are incompetent and don't know what they are doing.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire0 -
@Walkerlover said:
@MrEureka said:
@MrEureka said:
Do you understand why people will sometimes pay big premiums for rattlers and doilies?Since this proved a difficult analogy for some people, I’ll clarify it. Rattlers, doilies and gold CAC stickers are scarce and have some novelty value, which makes them challenging and fun to collect. As for the premiums people are willing to pay for a gold sticker, obviously it varies. As it should.
There was value at one time years ago for gold stickers. Now I see see MS 65 gold sticker 1938D Buffalos going for $500 in old holders when they are essentially a $50 coin. 10 times markup not for me personally.
You could think of it as a 10x markup. You could also just think of it as a $500 item. That $500 price floor might hold for a $350 coin in the same holder, after all.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@pcgs69 said:
I find the whole idea of CAC silly in general - whether green or gold sticker. It’s “hey some guy looked at it and said it’s nice so I’m charging 30% more”. I miss the days you looked for nice coins rather than waiting for some guy to tell you it’s nice and automatically charging an arm and a leg more. It’s sort of ruining the hobby.The exact same argument was applied to TPGS's. Why do I have to pay more to get a VF coin when it's in a VF "plastic coffin"?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@PerryHall said:
@DisneyFan said:
I view gold stickers as "Error Stickers." The PCGS and NGC made an error. Errors are avidity collected.Why assume that PCGS got it wrong and CAC got it right? It's not like the profession coin graders are incompetent and don't know what they are doing.
Why assume that PCGS is more likely to get it right than SEGS?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@pcgs69 said:
I find the whole idea of CAC silly in general - whether green or gold sticker. It’s “hey some guy looked at it and said it’s nice so I’m charging 30% more”. I miss the days you looked for nice coins rather than waiting for some guy to tell you it’s nice and automatically charging an arm and a leg more. It’s sort of ruining the hobby.Do you feel the same way about PCGS and NGC that you do about CAC? If not, why not? Grading has a very similar effect on prices.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
0
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