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Fresh estate purchase. Legit or not? 1797 Large Cent
blaircountycoin
Posts: 273 ✭✭✭
A recent estate I purchased included this 1797 Large Cent. I know next to nothing about Large cents. I would appreciate any help to acknowledge real or not, plus a rough ballpark on value. The forums help in the past has been a large assistance. I am ok with large cents in the 40's and 50's. This is my first pre 1800 example. Thanks again in advance. Unfortunately the camera is what it is.
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I think thers envirmenral stuff going on from what I can tell/see
The die break is a match to this coin (Reverse 0f 1797, no stems, S-131, B-27):
https://coins.ha.com/itm/large-cents/1797-1c-reverse-of-1797-no-stems-s-131-b-27-r2-vf35-pcgs-breen-die-state-i-with-the-die-break-behind-liberty-s-head-showing-fully/a/60486-50226.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
The pictures are too small to authenticate.
The coin, if genuine, looks like it might have significant corrosion that was possibly cleaned.
Looks like it spent some time in the ground.
I also would identify it as the S-131. Here's my example that's been graded VG8 by our hosts:
Price guide of a VG8 is currently at $575 however, I paid more for mine.
Looks like a No Stems S-131 to me as well... pictures are a bit too small, but there looks to be F to VF details, Environmental damage and a possible cleaning...
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Maybe these pics help.
I would guess Fine or VF Details, corrosion, $300 or so.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Genuine. Great album coin.
Not really. Those are larger but not actually better.
Look at the graininess in the plastic outside of where the coin is sitting. Unless you have something really strange, the plastic is actually smooth and the graininess is an artifact of the photo.
There's also graininess on the coin. Everyone responding to this thread (including myself) assumes that the coin truly is grainy... but there's no way to judge how much of that is "real", and how much is the same sort of photo artifact that's causing the plastic to appear grainy also.
Here's my corroded S-132 (R-5) for comparison. Bob Grellman graded this one 10/5 details for light corrosion and a rim hit... I spent right at $300 for this one... it's a tougher variety.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Don't bet me wrong, I like the coins but. . . "light corrosion"?!
Yes, it's corroded. I offered this as a comparison to the OP's coin. Apologies for offending your sensibilities...
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
No problem. You get a pass (this time).
Please, in the future attempt to reframe from inaccurate and/or exaggerated claims.
(Thanks, in advance.)
Thanks for all the assistance. The 2 major questions were answered. !. Genuine 2. Variety ID and price thoughts. The second set of pics were taken with the coin in a plastic flip obviously, or not.
If you have an issue with how this coin was graded by Mr. Grellman, you can take it up with him. I just bought the thing and I'm not trying to sell it. Where, exactly, did I make any exaggerated or inaccurate claims about this coin?
Is it in the numeric system that Mr. Grellman and other EAC collectors use to assess grades (Details assessment/Deficiencies)? Gosh, maybe those EAC guys could use more numbers in their grading scale... like 4 numbers for each side (P01-MS70)... and we could throw in a "P" scale (from 1-4) for Planchet defects (common in early copper); an "R-prime" designation for Rim hits, not to be confused with the more common "R" scale for Rarity... mine's actually an R-5+ coin (again, 1-4... from rim hits only visible on one side to multiple rim issues); a separate "S" scale for surfaces... 1-100 in this aspect of the coin and we can make it on a "golf scale" where the smaller the number, the better. This would correlate directly to the number of "issues" per square mm of each coin, we could use English scale, but I prefer metric... I digress... calculating the fewest number... theoretically, zero, we could come up with an "S"-value for each coin. We could also employ a "C" scale for Color since that's also a parameter that Copper collectors tend to look for too.... tell Bob I said "Hi!"
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
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I stated that the pictures are too low in resolution to authenticate it.
It looks like it may be genuine, but much better pictures are needed for any kind of confident authentication.
.
One last try not in a flip. Best my camera will do. Thanks for trying and your patience.
Interesting coins
1797 large cent - looks like it circulated quite awhile. So looks legit to me.
The one w the green stuff - looks like pvc
I'm essentially seeing the same thing as before with the new batch of images... environmental damage, possible old cleaning... assuming it's 28 mm/10.89 g...If so, It's definitely the S-131 which is an R-3 coin. I included the scale below.
I'm not so sure I'd get it slabbed. Most EAC collectors who buy this type of details coin are perfectly happy with them raw, especially if they come with an attribution card. Between the grading fee (around $40) plus shipping both ways, you're looking at a fair amount of money just to encapsulate a details coin.
The S-132 is a legitimate R-5 variety, so I could see slabbing one primarily for the attribution rather than the numerical grade. Mine is obviously a details coin, and since I already have Bob Grellman's attribution card, I never really felt the need. Besides, it's an album coin.
In your case, if it really is an S-131 (assuming the diameter and weight check out), I'd call it somewhere around Fine to VF details. Unfortunately, the environmental damage and what appears to be an old cleaning would almost certainly keep it from straight grading, which impacts the value considerably. A straight-grade F-12 S-131 is roughly a $1,000 coin. A properly attributed S-132 in the same grade could bring considerably more to the right EAC collector because of its R-5 rarity. That's exactly why I was happy to buy mine raw for about $300 instead of paying $1,000 for a problem-free example. Put another way, I didn't buy a $1,000 coin for $300... I bought a $300 coin that lets me own a legitimate R-5 Sheldon variety.
Hope this helps and adds a little perspective.
R-1 (Common): Over 1,250 estimated survivors.
R-2 (Uncommon): 501 to 1,250 estimated survivors.
R-3 (Scarce): 201 to 500 known survivors.
R-4 (Very Scarce): 76 to 200 estimated survivors.
R-5 (Rare): 31 to 75 known survivors.
R-6 (Very Rare): 13 to 30 known survivors.
R-7 (Extremely Rare): 4 to 12 known survivors.
R-8 (Unique or Nearly Unique): 1 to 3 known survivors.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
The surface looks off to me - not just corrosion. Have you checked the weight and what does the edge look like? Does it pass the 'ring' test? I am wondering about possible electrotype.
Lots of great info. Just weighed the coin, 9.7 g.
Circumference is dead on 28 mm.
I think you mean "diameter".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
yes, thank you. The perils of typing after midnight!