An Unexpectedly Amazing LCS
I'm in Utah visiting family and decided to check out a local coin store while I was there. I went on maps, typed in "coin," and picked out the first decent-looking one without doing too much research, not expecting much. My mind was blown!!!
After walking in I started looking at the nearest shelf while my parents (they're non-numismatists; the coin shop was one of our stops on a run of errands) talked with the coin guy. I don't remember how the conversation went, but eventually I went over there and he mentioned that he had a matte proof peace dollar on a lower shelf. It took me a few seconds to register what he said, but lo and behold, at the bottom of the display case:
I asked to get a closer look, and he took it out, let me hold it, and told me about it hadn't been sold since before the TPGs were a thing and still hadn't been encapsulated.
He also had a $50 slug from the U.S. Assay office that he brought out. He told me to hold out my hand, and next thing I knew I was in skin-to-gold contact with one of the most valuable coins I'd ever seen (apologies for the lack of close-up photos and the specifics of which variety it is):
I've never been to any big shows or dealers, so this was a new and incredible experience for me - if the store owner is reading this, sorry if I was babbling nonsense, I was really excited 😂. I ended up buying some bust coinage since I didn't have any yet:
And here are a couple other pictures:
Just wanted to share my awesome experience.
I collect world proof sets, coins featuring composers, mid-20th century U.S. proof coins, U.S. type coins, and whatever else I want.
Comments
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Wow, matte proof, really? That does look like a really nice strike, but what other aspects of the coin would indicate that it’s a proof?
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@steve_richardson said:
Wow, matte proof, really? That does look like a really nice strike, but what other aspects of the coin would indicate that it’s a proof?I believe the book behind the coin is the auction catalogue from its last sale, with the pedigree and everything. The coin in question is the one pictured in the book.
I collect world proof sets, coins featuring composers, mid-20th century U.S. proof coins, U.S. type coins, and whatever else I want.
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I didn’t notice that… amazing! I would love to see that.
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Super post here - your excitement is palpable. I love stumbling on to something unexpectedly great! I was gratified to see that you acquired some Bust coinage, as I'm a big fan of the small busties. I don't know much about quarters, but I have some experience with half dimes and I'm learning the dimes. Half dime die marriages are identified by their LM (Logan-McCloskey) numbers, and dimes by their JR (John Reich) numbers. My website has a dime attribution tool to help you attribute your dime - take a look! https://groovycoins.com/cbdattribution?year=1835
Warning - bust coinage can be habit-forming...
My hobby website Groovycoins.com, new and improved!
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Oh wow, thanks for sharing this. I guess I've yet to see a proof peace dollar 😬
I collect world proof sets, coins featuring composers, mid-20th century U.S. proof coins, U.S. type coins, and whatever else I want.
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Ah, that is a very interesting post! A far cry from the $125k price tag on the coin. Ain't the internet great? :-)
My hobby website Groovycoins.com, new and improved!
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That dealer must be really "old school". Most dealers would have had those five-figure and six-figure coins slabbed if for no other reason than to protect them when showing them off.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire11 -
So, it was once slabbed as a business strike environmental damage and still sold for $10,980!
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Hmmm. So the Peace Dollar was once sold as a proof and it has since been determined to be a business strike, but the LCS cracked it out of its NGC slab and labeled it as a proof. They also display it with the outdated auction catalog that described it as a proof.
I'm glad the visit was fun but I'm a little skeptical about their business practices.
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@PerryHall said:
That dealer must be really "old school". Most dealers would have had those five-figure and six-figure coins slabbed if for no other reason than to protect them when showing them off.(I miss old school stuff 🙂)
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@JBK said:
Hmmm. So the Peace Dollar was once sold as a proof and it has since been determined to be a business strike, but the LCS cracked it out of its NGC slab and labeled it as a proof. They also display it with the outdated auction catalog that described it as a proof.I'm glad the visit was fun but I'm a little skeptical about their business practices.
Well, it only sold for $11,000 in the holder. It's worth $125,000 now!
Edited to add: and he also may have lied about it never having been slabbed.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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Really cool coins and amazing that they are still raw! I like the embossed Info Insert on the Capped Bust $5 piece. I may have to look into something like that.
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@oih82w8 said:
Really cool coins and amazing that they are still raw! I like the embossed Info Insert on the Capped Bust $5 piece. I may have to look into something like that.Are they "still" raw or were they cracked out?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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Very cool! Cannot fathom why those would be marketed raw at this point though...
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@scotty1419 said:
Very cool! Cannot fathom why those would be marketed raw at this point though...Read the entire thread and we might be able to guess...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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Wow what an experience, thanks for sharing. I think there are <10 known 1921 Matte Proofs in existence and holding 1 would be memorable.
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Sometimes ‘old school’ means putting a dunce cap on a horse, and calling it a unicorn.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
11 -
If we feel like being generous, the dealer might have been suckered by the person he bought it from and not be aware of the more recent sale.
Still not a good look for the dealer, of course. But differently not good.
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Good sleuthing Nick. Seemed a bit too good to be true that a 6 figure coin would be hanging out raw but with the 1985 catalog there and a raw slug also...disappointing but not surprising to see that some of the old-school, potentially shady LCS tactics are around rather than a unicorn.
Nice to see you here @OwenSeymour , visit more often.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
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Just read the Stacks link. So a 1G but not Matte Proof. No wonder keeping it raw. Does have a great strike for a 21.
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@jonathanb said:
If we feel like being generous, the dealer might have been suckered by the person he bought it from and not be aware of the more recent sale.Still not a good look for the dealer, of course. But differently not good.
Except how did he find the original catalog listing if not from the second catalog listing? Do we really think someone came in with the catalog and the raw coin and the dealer paid $100k for it?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@lermish said:
Good sleuthing Nick. Seemed a bit too good to be true that a 6 figure coin would be hanging out raw but with the 1985 catalog there and a raw slug also...disappointing but not surprising to see that some of the old-school, potentially shady LCS tactics are around rather than a unicorn.
Nice to see you here @OwenSeymour , visit more often.
For every attempt at screwing someone out of six figures I shall make one appearance!
Head coin nerd @ Rarity7
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It was sold less than a month ago in ngc holder for less than 1/10 of asking price, now it’s a matte proof
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If I'm reading this correctly, was originally sold raw as the Matte Proof back in 1985, but doesn't say how much. Sold in the NGC slab in June 2026 for the 10K+. But was also in an details PCGS slab that was cracked, assuming to see if NGC might label as a Proof. Now raw again 1 month later. Sorry dealer has to provide more due diligence before offering for $125K with the old mistaken catalog and assuming was raw for 40 years.
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Shady
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@jmlanzaf said:
@JBK said:
Hmmm. So the Peace Dollar was once sold as a proof and it has since been determined to be a business strike, but the LCS cracked it out of its NGC slab and labeled it as a proof. They also display it with the outdated auction catalog that described it as a proof.I'm glad the visit was fun but I'm a little skeptical about their business practices.
Well, it only sold for $11,000 in the holder. It's worth $125,000 now!
Edited to add: and he also may have lied about it never having been slabbed.
Is it possible this dealer purchased the coin raw along with the catalog description from a collector or another dealer?
It could be that other collector, or dealer is the one who cracked the coin out and sold to this dealer raw. That probably doesn't excuse the current dealer from doing his homework yet could explain how he believes this Peace dollar is a legitimate proof having purchased it as such.0 -
@RedRocket said:
@jmlanzaf said:
@JBK said:
Hmmm. So the Peace Dollar was once sold as a proof and it has since been determined to be a business strike, but the LCS cracked it out of its NGC slab and labeled it as a proof. They also display it with the outdated auction catalog that described it as a proof.I'm glad the visit was fun but I'm a little skeptical about their business practices.
Well, it only sold for $11,000 in the holder. It's worth $125,000 now!
Edited to add: and he also may have lied about it never having been slabbed.
Is it possible this dealer purchased the coin raw along with the catalog description from a collector or another dealer?
It could be that other collector, or dealer is the one who cracked the coin out and sold to this dealer raw. That probably doesn't excuse the current dealer from doing his homework yet could explain how he believes this Peace dollar is a legitimate proof having purchased it as such.It's possible, that's why I say he "may" have lied. But the actual proofs are so rare, it's hard to believe anyone would pay 6 figures for a coin based on a black & white photo.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@jmlanzaf said:
@RedRocket said:
It's possible, that's why I say he "may" have lied. But the actual proofs are so rare, it's hard to believe anyone would pay 6 figures for a coin based on a black & white photo.
Good point.
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Thanks for the coin shop review. Looks like a lot of interesting coins there.
Investor2 -
Maybe he'll take $115K for the "matte proof" 1921 rarity. Or give even a bigger discount for cash.
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"told me about it hadn't been sold since before the TPGs were a thing and still hadn't been encapsulated."
This makes that dealer a liar
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #16065 -
@RedRocket said:
@jmlanzaf said:
@JBK said:
Hmmm. So the Peace Dollar was once sold as a proof and it has since been determined to be a business strike, but the LCS cracked it out of its NGC slab and labeled it as a proof. They also display it with the outdated auction catalog that described it as a proof.I'm glad the visit was fun but I'm a little skeptical about their business practices.
Well, it only sold for $11,000 in the holder. It's worth $125,000 now!
Edited to add: and he also may have lied about it never having been slabbed.
Is it possible this dealer purchased the coin raw along with the catalog description from a collector or another dealer?
It could be that other collector, or dealer is the one who cracked the coin out and sold to this dealer raw. That probably doesn't excuse the current dealer from doing his homework yet could explain how he believes this Peace dollar is a legitimate proof having purchased it as such.This possibility crossed my mind as well. His other coins had their problems labeled, and his "old school" style might have made him more accepting of a raw coin with some documentation.
I collect world proof sets, coins featuring composers, mid-20th century U.S. proof coins, U.S. type coins, and whatever else I want.
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@dunkleosteus430 said:
@RedRocket said:
@jmlanzaf said:
@JBK said:
Hmmm. So the Peace Dollar was once sold as a proof and it has since been determined to be a business strike, but the LCS cracked it out of its NGC slab and labeled it as a proof. They also display it with the outdated auction catalog that described it as a proof.I'm glad the visit was fun but I'm a little skeptical about their business practices.
Well, it only sold for $11,000 in the holder. It's worth $125,000 now!
Edited to add: and he also may have lied about it never having been slabbed.
Is it possible this dealer purchased the coin raw along with the catalog description from a collector or another dealer?
It could be that other collector, or dealer is the one who cracked the coin out and sold to this dealer raw. That probably doesn't excuse the current dealer from doing his homework yet could explain how he believes this Peace dollar is a legitimate proof having purchased it as such.This possibility crossed my mind as well. His other coins had their problems labeled, and his "old school" style might have made him more accepting of a raw coin with some documentation.
I would also let the other possibilities cross your mind.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@jmlanzaf said:
@dunkleosteus430 said:
@RedRocket said:
@jmlanzaf said:
@JBK said:
Hmmm. So the Peace Dollar was once sold as a proof and it has since been determined to be a business strike, but the LCS cracked it out of its NGC slab and labeled it as a proof. They also display it with the outdated auction catalog that described it as a proof.I'm glad the visit was fun but I'm a little skeptical about their business practices.
Well, it only sold for $11,000 in the holder. It's worth $125,000 now!
Edited to add: and he also may have lied about it never having been slabbed.
Is it possible this dealer purchased the coin raw along with the catalog description from a collector or another dealer?
It could be that other collector, or dealer is the one who cracked the coin out and sold to this dealer raw. That probably doesn't excuse the current dealer from doing his homework yet could explain how he believes this Peace dollar is a legitimate proof having purchased it as such.This possibility crossed my mind as well. His other coins had their problems labeled, and his "old school" style might have made him more accepting of a raw coin with some documentation.
I would also let the other possibilities cross your mind.
They have.
I collect world proof sets, coins featuring composers, mid-20th century U.S. proof coins, U.S. type coins, and whatever else I want.
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@lcutler said:
So, it was once slabbed as a business strike environmental damage and still sold for $10,980!Or bought back so it could be sold raw as a proof.
John
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution0 -
Perhaps someone should hook that dealer up with the guys in Wuhan that can provide 100,000 copies a month at a really great price.
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Regardless of the questionable ethics I'm happy for you that you enjoyed your visit to that LCS.
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It is listed in the 1985 prices realized as bringing $4,840. If it really sold then at least one person in addition to the cataloger thought it was special. (Prices realized back then often did not omit unsold lots.)
Seem to recall by the late 1980's even Breen disavowed some of his own letters of authenticity for proof 1921 dollars as opinions varied considerably as to what counted as a proof and there were at least several with letters that were disputed.
Would be interesting to know if more people than the winning bidder in the June 2026 auction thought it was worth more than a business strike. (Might be only one bidder if closed at a reserve with no competition.)
.
.1985 Prices realized:
https://archive.org/details/fourmemorablecol1985bowe/page/n5/mode/2up
1985 Page with full lot:
https://archive.org/details/fourmemorablecol1985bowe/page/152/mode/2up
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
3 -
@WinLoseWin said:
It is listed in the 1985 prices realized as bringing $4,840. If it really sold then at least one person in addition to the cataloger thought it was special. (Prices realized back then often did not omit unsold lots.)
Seem to recall by the late 1980's even Breen disavowed some of his own letters of authenticity for proof 1921 dollars as opinions varied considerably as to what counted as a proof and there were at least several with letters that were disputed.
Would be interesting to know if more people than the winning bidder in the June 2026 auction thought it was worth more than a business strike. (Might be only one bidder if closed at a reserve with no competition.)
.
.1985 Prices realized:
https://archive.org/details/fourmemorablecol1985bowe/page/n5/mode/2up
1985 Page with full lot:
https://archive.org/details/fourmemorablecol1985bowe/page/152/mode/2up
Thank you for finding this, I didn't take the time to read it when I was there and the paragraphs were obscured in all my pictures. I haven't mentioned it yet but I was a little bit underwhelmed with the coin's "matte finish" as it didn't really look like the ones I've seen on the internet. However, I'm a little bit surprised that it's not special at all (besides the VAM) because the strike is really, really sharp and it also doesn't look like any 1921 peace dollars I've seen, although that may be because of the environmental damage, or because I haven't seen enough peace dollars.
I collect world proof sets, coins featuring composers, mid-20th century U.S. proof coins, U.S. type coins, and whatever else I want.
0 -
Might be a LCS to avoid.
"Some people say Citizen Kane or Casablanca. I say 'Jason and the Argonauts' is the greatest movie ever made.” Tom Hanks at The Oscars' Science & Technical Awards Ceremony for Ray Harryhausen, 1992
1 -
@dunkleosteus430 said:
@WinLoseWin said:
It is listed in the 1985 prices realized as bringing $4,840. If it really sold then at least one person in addition to the cataloger thought it was special. (Prices realized back then often did not omit unsold lots.)
Seem to recall by the late 1980's even Breen disavowed some of his own letters of authenticity for proof 1921 dollars as opinions varied considerably as to what counted as a proof and there were at least several with letters that were disputed.
Would be interesting to know if more people than the winning bidder in the June 2026 auction thought it was worth more than a business strike. (Might be only one bidder if closed at a reserve with no competition.)
.
.1985 Prices realized:
https://archive.org/details/fourmemorablecol1985bowe/page/n5/mode/2up
1985 Page with full lot:
https://archive.org/details/fourmemorablecol1985bowe/page/152/mode/2up
Thank you for finding this, I didn't take the time to read it when I was there and the paragraphs were obscured in all my pictures. I haven't mentioned it yet but I was a little bit underwhelmed with the coin's "matte finish" as it didn't really look like the ones I've seen on the internet. However, I'm a little bit surprised that it's not special at all (besides the VAM) because the strike is really, really sharp and it also doesn't look like any 1921 peace dollars I've seen, although that may be because of the environmental damage, or because I haven't seen enough peace dollars.
I agree with you, I think the Peace dollar is something special. The strike is too sharp and the surfaces are matte to my eyes. A normal problem unc sells for $300, and it sold for over $10k at auction. More than one person thought it was special too.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #16060 -
I was just thinking that someone could have messed with the surfaces to give it that matte proof look. I don't think that would be hard to do.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
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@Morgan13 said:
I was just thinking that someone could have messed with the surfaces to give it that matte proof look. _** I don't think that would be hard to do.**_I am a bit surprised at this conclusion. I would think it is extremely difficult to give a standard 1921 Peace dollar a matte proof look. At least to the degree that it passes the scrutiny of experts/collectors of the series.
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@braddick said:
@Morgan13 said:
I was just thinking that someone could have messed with the surfaces to give it that matte proof look. _** I don't think that would be hard to do.**_I am a bit surprised at this conclusion. I would think it is extremely difficult to give a standard 1921 Peace dollar a matte proof look. At least to the degree that it passes the scrutiny of experts/collectors of the series.
I was speaking of this coin in particular. It has a different look and did not pass the scrutiny of the graders anyway.
It was not in a matte proof slab when it was last sold. It makes me wonder if someone along the way did some doctoring to the surface.
Just to be clear I was suggesting that it would not be difficult to change the surface of a coin.
Passing the scrutiny of graders, collectors or experts is not something I touched on.Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
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@braddick said:
@Morgan13 said:
I was just thinking that someone could have messed with the surfaces to give it that matte proof look. _** I don't think that would be hard to do.**_I am a bit surprised at this conclusion. I would think it is extremely difficult to give a standard 1921 Peace dollar a matte proof look. At least to the degree that it passes the scrutiny of experts/collectors of the series.
They have all kinds of laser beams these days.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #16060 -
@braddick said:
@Morgan13 said:
I was just thinking that someone could have messed with the surfaces to give it that matte proof look. _** I don't think that would be hard to do.**_I am a bit surprised at this conclusion. I would think it is extremely difficult to give a standard 1921 Peace dollar a matte proof look. At least to the degree that it passes the scrutiny of experts/collectors of the series.
It should be fairly easy. True Mattes were struck as Satin Proofs and then sandblasted by hand after striking in the medal room of the mint. You would need to find a well detailed 1921 (hard to do, but a decent MS65 should do), and then sandblast it.
If done right, I'd imagine it could pass TPG scrutiny. The problem with this series is that we know the look of true Mattes, so you would have to get the grain size of the sand perfectly correct. For a series that never had true Matte Proofs struck, that's not necessarily a problem.
Key to detection is hits. If the hits are sandblasted, it's no good. If the hits aren't sandblasted, it's likely genuine.
1 -
@jmlanzaf said:
@scotty1419 said:
Very cool! Cannot fathom why those would be marketed raw at this point though...Read the entire thread and we might be able to guess...
By no stretch of the imagination do I think the tpg’s are flawless or always correct. And yet reading threads like this show even more of a place and importance of having expensive coins graded and slabbed. There are certainly plenty of collectors and other dealers who can go into a lcs and walk out paying 5-6 figures for a raw coin. And be perfectly happy and confident with their purchase. Raw coins offer and have a stranglehold on plausible deniability. Slabbed coins offer guarantees and standards.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
1
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