Well, I did start the thread to discuss the Liberty Bells, and have not been dissatisfied with how the conversation has gone. I got what I hoped to get out of this discussion, regardless of it drifting off course at times. Same thing happens in most face to face conversations in real life though, so it’s fine.
I learned a lot about how people view this impending release. It’s a topic that creates some spirited debate, and that’s always welcome.
I wish everyone luck who wants one on Thursday, no matter what your intentions are with it. I’m anxious to watch it unfold
@Robwo said:
I think they will decrease in value, but what do I know?
Maybe not. I can imagine so few being sold in the first 30 days that the Mint might adjust the mintage to 250 pieces. In which case the market could move above the issue price.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@Bullsitter said:
Don't want one but I will take the opportunity to hone my waiting room techniques............
Might not be a waiting room as some thinking not even 2000 people will be wanting these.
TBD. Enough people seem to be worked up enough over it that I can see them slamming the website to take their $750 risk free shot. If the Mint did not accept returns, I think it would be a very different story.
Whether there is actually demand for these, with them being vindicated with a profitable flip, is the open question. I don't see it, but I could be wrong.
If not, the Mint will reap precisely what it has sown, and will see a ton of them coming back. The golds are an easier call for me. With the same mintage but geometrically higher prices, it's hard to see them selling out at all. If they do, there is really no room for a flip, so I see them being returned in large numbers.
All this said, I do think there will be a waiting room and an initial sell out of the silvers, because $750 is not $20K, 2K is a very low mintage for a US Mint product, and enough people are pumping these up to encourage people to take a shot at them.
When thinking about this, would one be willing to pay $750 for an 1876 1/2 oz. silver centennial medal? Not sure I would. Still considering. Any thoughts?
And buy prices on Pure also support the flip. Granted the > @Rdf said:
When thinking about this, would one be willing to pay $750 for an 1876 1/2 oz. silver centennial medal? Not sure I would. Still considering. Any thoughts?
The previous 13 pages of this thread have plenty of thoughts on this already.
Maybe buyers haven't read the doom and gloom here.
Clearly. Also unsure exactly what buyers think they are buying, since sellers today have no way to guarantee they will have anything to deliver.
To the extent any of those reported transactions are even real, they are nothing more than guarantees that sellers will be receiving those prices if the market does not develop at those prices or higher. And that's assuming eBay won't let the buyers out if they want to cancel if the market turns out to be lower on July 16th.
You are certainly free to assign whatever value you want to those transactions. I assign none whatsoever, due to the caveats expressed above, and previously.
On something like this, with a total mintage of 2K, pre-sales are meaningless, unless the seller is reputable, and will go to the ends of the Earth to deliver, and take whatever loss is necessary to guarantee delivery. I don't see any such seller in any of your screenshots above.
I also don't think eBay will side with sellers if the pre-sales turn out to be way above the market, and the buyers want to cancel once they see the market develop.
So, it's a whole lotta nothin' as far as I am concerned. You can get excited. I'll wait to see completed sales on confirmed orders on the 16th, and then thereafter, after FOMO buyers get their fill, before admitting I was wrong about these. July 4th quarters are not $10K treasures either, although a lucky few might have been able to get that in the beginning if those were not shill sales, as they almost surely were.
After all, if I wanted to, I could sell to myself right now at $2,500, and you could capture that and post it, although I truly have nothing to sell and no interest in buying at that price. So it proves nothing, other than some folks are priming the pump. Let's wait and see what happens with the dump before doing a victory dance here.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
NJ will never admit he is or was wrong. Even in the past and present if there is proof, he just says it’s “make believe.” He’s done it before and will continue doing it again and again.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
Maybe buyers haven't read the doom and gloom here.
Clearly. Also unsure exactly what buyers think they are buying, since sellers today have no way to guarantee they will have anything to deliver.
To the extent any of those reported transactions are even real, they are nothing more than guarantees that sellers will be receiving those prices if the market does not develop at those prices or higher. And that's assuming eBay won't let the buyers out if they want to cancel if the market turns out to be lower on July 16th.
You are certainly free to assign whatever value you want to those transactions. I assign none whatsoever, due to the caveats expressed above, and previously.
On something like this, with a total mintage of 2K, pre-sales are meaningless, unless the seller is reputable, and will go to the ends of the Earth to deliver, and take whatever loss is necessary to guarantee delivery. I don't see any such seller in any of your screenshots above.
I also don't think eBay will side with sellers if the pre-sales turn out to be way above the market, and the buyers want to cancel once they see the market develop.
So, it's a whole lotta nothin' as far as I am concerned. You can get excited. I'll wait to see completed sales on confirmed orders on the 16th, and then thereafter, after FOMO buyers get their fill, before admitting I was wrong about these. July 4th quarters are not $10K treasures either, although a lucky few might have been able to get that in the beginning if those were not shill sales, as they almost surely were.
After all, if I wanted to, I could sell to myself right now at $2,500, and you could capture that and post it, although I truly have nothing to sell and no interest in buying at that price. So it proves nothing, other than some folks are priming the pump. Let's wait and see what happens with the dump before doing a victory dance here.
It really doesn't matter if none of the sellers come through. The point is that there are prospective buyers at elevated prices.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
Okay. Now back to the question -- what dealers and what prices?
Maybe buyers haven't read the doom and gloom here.
Clearly. Also unsure exactly what buyers think they are buying, since sellers today have no way to guarantee they will have anything to deliver.
To the extent any of those reported transactions are even real, they are nothing more than guarantees that sellers will be receiving those prices if the market does not develop at those prices or higher. And that's assuming eBay won't let the buyers out if they want to cancel if the market turns out to be lower on July 16th.
You are certainly free to assign whatever value you want to those transactions. I assign none whatsoever, due to the caveats expressed above, and previously.
On something like this, with a total mintage of 2K, pre-sales are meaningless, unless the seller is reputable, and will go to the ends of the Earth to deliver, and take whatever loss is necessary to guarantee delivery. I don't see any such seller in any of your screenshots above.
I also don't think eBay will side with sellers if the pre-sales turn out to be way above the market, and the buyers want to cancel once they see the market develop.
So, it's a whole lotta nothin' as far as I am concerned. You can get excited. I'll wait to see completed sales on confirmed orders on the 16th, and then thereafter, after FOMO buyers get their fill, before admitting I was wrong about these. July 4th quarters are not $10K treasures either, although a lucky few might have been able to get that in the beginning if those were not shill sales, as they almost surely were.
After all, if I wanted to, I could sell to myself right now at $2,500, and you could capture that and post it, although I truly have nothing to sell and no interest in buying at that price. So it proves nothing, other than some folks are priming the pump. Let's wait and see what happens with the dump before doing a victory dance here.
It really doesn't matter if none of the sellers come through. The point is that there are prospective buyers at elevated prices.
I get it. I'm trying to ascertain whether or not the so called dealer buy offers are even real.
I honestly don't get why people still feel the need to stir things up like this, 14 pages into the thread, and 2 days before launch. We'll all know one way or the other soon enough, but eBay pre-sales today are no more legitimate than a month ago, unless someone on eBay actually has ABPP inventory they are selling.
And we know that they don't, and that the sellers have very little feedback. So it's nothing, other than an excuse to stir things up.
@NJCoin said:
And we know that they don't, and that the sellers have very little feedback. So it's nothing, other than an excuse to stir things up.
Many posters here use pre-sales as a gauge for the early market in mint releases. You are just mad it goes against what you claimed.
Not mad at all. Just pointing out that it is not legitimate when the supply will be so limited, and when the Mint conducted no advance sales of its own.
I recognize that you either don't understand or don't accept what I am saying, but pre-sales for this are nothing but pure fiction. They indicate nothing, and actual transactions once people have actual inventory to sell can and will be either far above or far below these prices.
You are showing $2400 today. You showed $1400 a few weeks ago.
If $2400 holds, do you really think anyone who thought they bought at $1400 a few weeks ago will actually receive anything other than a refund? If the price collapses to $1400, do you really think the $2400 buyer won't back out and be taken care by eBay?
Unless you are totally naive, you should understand that these pre-sales mean nothing, and indicate nothing. Other than people trying to rev up the market ahead of release, with the intent to get some to flip to anxious FOMO buyers before things settle down.
Where they will be when they settle down is the question. I'll be shocked if that ends up being significantly above $750, since I wouldn't even be interested at that price. TBD.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
Okay. Now back to the question -- what dealers and what prices?
I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity.
You’re operating in the. “don’t know what I don’t know” space with respect to the coin market but not willing to learn.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
Okay. Now back to the question -- what dealers and what prices?
I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity.
You’re operating in the. “don’t know what I don’t know” space with respect to the coin market but not willing to learn.
Yes. T&Cs. Can't exchange information.
Great, so don't hint at things you can't discuss. Easy peasy.
Someone wants to buy, but you can't disclose? Because, T&Cs? Since when? Sounds like nonsense to me.
Nothing in the BST forum either. Nothing, even though I don't think something like this, pre-release would be limited to that pursuant to "T&Cs."
In any event, feels like you are gaslighting me. I don't care about "don’t know what I don’t know.”
I'll stick with what I see with my lyin' eyes, and discount your "I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity" after you confidently say "dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price."
Don't say it if you can't talk about it. Otherwise, it does not exist.
@NJCoin said:
Not mad at all. Just pointing out that it is not legitimate when the supply will be so limited, and when the Mint conducted no advance sales of its own.
Yes, you are mad you have been so wrong thus far. Why don't you sell a liberty bell to yourself on Ebay for $100 and then you can spend the next five years telling us how right you were.
They could've made the 1/2 oz. silver a full oz., this is commemorating 250 years free from the crown, plus it's $750, jmo. If I were Mint director it would've been a full oz.
@NJCoin said:
Not mad at all. Just pointing out that it is not legitimate when the supply will be so limited, and when the Mint conducted no advance sales of its own.
Yes, you are mad you have been so wrong thus far. Why don't you sell a liberty bell to yourself on Ebay for $100 and then you can spend the next five years telling us how right you were.
No. I am not "mad" "so far" because I am neither right nor wrong yet. Neither are you. I can't help it if you can't see it, but repeating the same thing over and over again is not going to make it true.
Oh, and you are not going to get the last word with me.
@morgansforever said:
They could've made the 1/2 oz. silver a full oz., this is commemorating 250 years free from the crown, plus it's $750, jmo. If I were Mint director it would've been a full oz.
But, why, if people are willing to pay this for that? That would just result in an additional thousand ounces of silver they'd be flushing down the toilet.
The next move will be for them to make garbage like this out of copper nickel. Why not, if @HalfDime would be just as excited, as long as the mintage was low enough.
After all, the value is in the mintage. Not the fact that it's not even a coin, or the $30 worth of silver.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
Okay. Now back to the question -- what dealers and what prices?
I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity.
You’re operating in the. “don’t know what I don’t know” space with respect to the coin market but not willing to learn.
Yes. T&Cs. Can't exchange information.
Great, so don't hint at things you can't discuss. Easy peasy.
Someone wants to buy, but you can't disclose? Because, T&Cs? Since when? Sounds like nonsense to me.
Nothing in the BST forum either. Nothing, even though I don't think something like this, pre-release would be limited to that pursuant to "T&Cs."
In any event, feels like you are gaslighting me. I don't care about "don’t know what I don’t know.”
I'll stick with what I see with my lyin' eyes, and discount your "I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity" after you confidently say "dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price."
Don't say it if you can't talk about it. Otherwise, it does not exist.
Not T&C here or on BST - T&C of the various dealer sites and distribution lists which are invite and/or subscription only and do not permit reposting elsewhere.
Again, you’re speaking to things you don’t know. Strongly suggest you educate yourself if you want to have a meaningful opinion.
@morgansforever said:
They could've made the 1/2 oz. silver a full oz., this is commemorating 250 years free from the crown, plus it's $750, jmo. If I were Mint director it would've been a full oz.
Size matters. It may not be as easy as you think
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
Okay. Now back to the question -- what dealers and what prices?
I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity.
You’re operating in the. “don’t know what I don’t know” space with respect to the coin market but not willing to learn.
Yes. T&Cs. Can't exchange information.
Great, so don't hint at things you can't discuss. Easy peasy.
Someone wants to buy, but you can't disclose? Because, T&Cs? Since when? Sounds like nonsense to me.
Nothing in the BST forum either. Nothing, even though I don't think something like this, pre-release would be limited to that pursuant to "T&Cs."
In any event, feels like you are gaslighting me. I don't care about "don’t know what I don’t know.”
I'll stick with what I see with my lyin' eyes, and discount your "I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity" after you confidently say "dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price."
Don't say it if you can't talk about it. Otherwise, it does not exist.
Not T&C here or on BST - T&C of the various dealer sites and distribution lists which are invite and/or subscription only and do not permit reposting elsewhere.
Again, you’re speaking to things you don’t know. Strongly suggest you educate yourself if you want to have a meaningful opinion.
To be fair, your posting of anonymous offers with no details has little probative value and does lead to suspicion.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
Okay. Now back to the question -- what dealers and what prices?
I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity.
You’re operating in the. “don’t know what I don’t know” space with respect to the coin market but not willing to learn.
Yes. T&Cs. Can't exchange information.
Great, so don't hint at things you can't discuss. Easy peasy.
Someone wants to buy, but you can't disclose? Because, T&Cs? Since when? Sounds like nonsense to me.
Nothing in the BST forum either. Nothing, even though I don't think something like this, pre-release would be limited to that pursuant to "T&Cs."
In any event, feels like you are gaslighting me. I don't care about "don’t know what I don’t know.”
I'll stick with what I see with my lyin' eyes, and discount your "I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity" after you confidently say "dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price."
Don't say it if you can't talk about it. Otherwise, it does not exist.
Not T&C here or on BST - T&C of the various dealer sites and distribution lists which are invite and/or subscription only and do not permit reposting elsewhere.
Again, you’re speaking to things you don’t know. Strongly suggest you educate yourself if you want to have a meaningful opinion.
To be fair, your posting of anonymous offers with no details has little probative value and does lead to suspicion.
Sounds like you agree with @NJCoin and that these have no demand since you don’t believe any dealers have bids out on these. Guess we will find out very soon!
For as often as we are reminded about your dealer experience, would have thought you’d have seen some bids on these. But guess not.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
Okay. Now back to the question -- what dealers and what prices?
I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity.
You’re operating in the. “don’t know what I don’t know” space with respect to the coin market but not willing to learn.
Yes. T&Cs. Can't exchange information.
Great, so don't hint at things you can't discuss. Easy peasy.
Someone wants to buy, but you can't disclose? Because, T&Cs? Since when? Sounds like nonsense to me.
Nothing in the BST forum either. Nothing, even though I don't think something like this, pre-release would be limited to that pursuant to "T&Cs."
In any event, feels like you are gaslighting me. I don't care about "don’t know what I don’t know.”
I'll stick with what I see with my lyin' eyes, and discount your "I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity" after you confidently say "dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price."
Don't say it if you can't talk about it. Otherwise, it does not exist.
Not T&C here or on BST - T&C of the various dealer sites and distribution lists which are invite and/or subscription only and do not permit reposting elsewhere.
Again, you’re speaking to things you don’t know. Strongly suggest you educate yourself if you want to have a meaningful opinion.
To be fair, your posting of anonymous offers with no details has little probative value and does lead to suspicion.
Sounds like you agree with @NJCoin and that these have no demand since you don’t believe any dealers have bids out on these. Guess we will find out very soon!
For as often as we are reminded about your dealer experience, would have thought you’d have seen some bids on these. But guess not.
That's a completely illogical non sequitur. I said no such thing and I think I've pushed more than enough arguments with NJ for a more correct understanding of my position to be easily determined.
As for my bids, they are secret like yours. Lol. Kidding aside, i am not making bids on these because they would be useless. At 2000 units, the people making locks are unlikely to be able to fulfill and more likely to back out if the price is higher.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
Okay. Now back to the question -- what dealers and what prices?
I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity.
You’re operating in the. “don’t know what I don’t know” space with respect to the coin market but not willing to learn.
Yes. T&Cs. Can't exchange information.
Great, so don't hint at things you can't discuss. Easy peasy.
Someone wants to buy, but you can't disclose? Because, T&Cs? Since when? Sounds like nonsense to me.
Nothing in the BST forum either. Nothing, even though I don't think something like this, pre-release would be limited to that pursuant to "T&Cs."
In any event, feels like you are gaslighting me. I don't care about "don’t know what I don’t know.”
I'll stick with what I see with my lyin' eyes, and discount your "I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity" after you confidently say "dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price."
Don't say it if you can't talk about it. Otherwise, it does not exist.
Not T&C here or on BST - T&C of the various dealer sites and distribution lists which are invite and/or subscription only and do not permit reposting elsewhere.
Again, you’re speaking to things you don’t know. Strongly suggest you educate yourself if you want to have a meaningful opinion.
To be fair, your posting of anonymous offers with no details has little probative value and does lead to suspicion.
Sounds like you agree with @NJCoin and that these have no demand since you don’t believe any dealers have bids out on these. Guess we will find out very soon!
For as often as we are reminded about your dealer experience, would have thought you’d have seen some bids on these. But guess not.
That's a completely illogical non sequitur. I said no such thing and I think I've pushed more than enough arguments with NJ for a more correct understanding of my position to be easily determined.
As for my bids, they are secret like yours. Lol. Kidding aside, i am not making bids on these because they would be useless. At 2000 units, the people making locks are unlikely to be able to fulfill and more likely to back out if the price is higher.
Yeah, I didn’t read 14 pages to try to discern the nuances of your position (TLDR!). Just responding to your apparent skepticism that any dealers would have a bid out above issue price.
As far as dealers backing out after commitment to sell to another dealer at an agreed (bid) price, it’s rare as it would destroy reputation. More likely that dealers with posted bids are not getting any commitments yet, just pre-positioning.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
Okay. Now back to the question -- what dealers and what prices?
I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity.
You’re operating in the. “don’t know what I don’t know” space with respect to the coin market but not willing to learn.
Yes. T&Cs. Can't exchange information.
Great, so don't hint at things you can't discuss. Easy peasy.
Someone wants to buy, but you can't disclose? Because, T&Cs? Since when? Sounds like nonsense to me.
Nothing in the BST forum either. Nothing, even though I don't think something like this, pre-release would be limited to that pursuant to "T&Cs."
In any event, feels like you are gaslighting me. I don't care about "don’t know what I don’t know.”
I'll stick with what I see with my lyin' eyes, and discount your "I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity" after you confidently say "dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price."
Don't say it if you can't talk about it. Otherwise, it does not exist.
Not T&C here or on BST - T&C of the various dealer sites and distribution lists which are invite and/or subscription only and do not permit reposting elsewhere.
Again, you’re speaking to things you don’t know. Strongly suggest you educate yourself if you want to have a meaningful opinion.
To be fair, your posting of anonymous offers with no details has little probative value and does lead to suspicion.
Sounds like you agree with @NJCoin and that these have no demand since you don’t believe any dealers have bids out on these. Guess we will find out very soon!
For as often as we are reminded about your dealer experience, would have thought you’d have seen some bids on these. But guess not.
That's a completely illogical non sequitur. I said no such thing and I think I've pushed more than enough arguments with NJ for a more correct understanding of my position to be easily determined.
As for my bids, they are secret like yours. Lol. Kidding aside, i am not making bids on these because they would be useless. At 2000 units, the people making locks are unlikely to be able to fulfill and more likely to back out if the price is higher.
Yeah, I didn’t read 14 pages to try to discern the nuances of your position (TLDR!). Just responding to your apparent skepticism that any dealers would have a bid out above issue price.
As far as dealers backing out after commitment to sell to another dealer at an agreed (bid) price, it’s rare as it would destroy reputation. More likely that dealers with posted bids are not getting any commitments yet, just pre-positioning.
No, I'm not skeptical. Unlike NJ, I believe PURE is a real market and I take the eBay pre-sales at face value. My only point to you was that maybe you can see why NJ reacted the way he did to a very nebulous post (didn't even include price or number of units). If he's not accepting the posted PURE bids, he's not going to accept such nebulous information.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
Okay. Now back to the question -- what dealers and what prices?
I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity.
You’re operating in the. “don’t know what I don’t know” space with respect to the coin market but not willing to learn.
Yes. T&Cs. Can't exchange information.
Great, so don't hint at things you can't discuss. Easy peasy.
Someone wants to buy, but you can't disclose? Because, T&Cs? Since when? Sounds like nonsense to me.
Nothing in the BST forum either. Nothing, even though I don't think something like this, pre-release would be limited to that pursuant to "T&Cs."
In any event, feels like you are gaslighting me. I don't care about "don’t know what I don’t know.”
I'll stick with what I see with my lyin' eyes, and discount your "I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity" after you confidently say "dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price."
Don't say it if you can't talk about it. Otherwise, it does not exist.
Not T&C here or on BST - T&C of the various dealer sites and distribution lists which are invite and/or subscription only and do not permit reposting elsewhere.
Again, you’re speaking to things you don’t know. Strongly suggest you educate yourself if you want to have a meaningful opinion.
Welp, if it's a super secret buy offer, I guess they aren't that interested in buying. Are they?
Either way, if you were not at liberty to publicly post, then you don't publicly post. You don't obliquely make reference, and then say sorry, can't talk. That's nothing, and doesn't make you look great. Or to be super knowledgeable insider. Just a gaslighter.
@morgansforever said:
They could've made the 1/2 oz. silver a full oz., this is commemorating 250 years free from the crown, plus it's $750, jmo. If I were Mint director it would've been a full oz.
Size matters. It may not be as easy as you think
Nonsense. They figured out how to make an ounce of gold.
I promise you, they realized what they were doing with the mintage, apparently corrected figured people would get hot and bothered regardless, and then just cut another corner, as with so many other things in recent memory.
If they sell out, as it appears they will, they saved themselves $60K in silver expense and cost themselves nothing in sales. Yet another reason people should have no interest in these, but like Pavlovian dogs, they can't help themselves.
Just check out the Coin World article on what Minted Assets has planned for the ANA show. Far more interesting and beautiful than anything the US Mint is putting out this year. At a fraction of the mintage, and presumably a fraction of the cost. But not a US Mint monopoly product, so just a fraction of the interest. really calls into question the value of what the US Mint is selling.
@jmlanzaf said:
To be fair, your posting of anonymous offers with no details has little probative value and does lead to suspicion.
This is why most dealers avoid these threads, and won't mingle in the swamp with us.
Whatever. But when their buy offers are super secret, insider only offers subject to NDAs, they don't really exist, since real buyers want their buy offers disseminated far and wide.
Because "most dealers" who "won't mingle in the swamp" don't actually have much of a business, do they? Certainly not retail, since that is, pretty much by definition, the swamp.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
Okay. Now back to the question -- what dealers and what prices?
I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity.
You’re operating in the. “don’t know what I don’t know” space with respect to the coin market but not willing to learn.
Yes. T&Cs. Can't exchange information.
Great, so don't hint at things you can't discuss. Easy peasy.
Someone wants to buy, but you can't disclose? Because, T&Cs? Since when? Sounds like nonsense to me.
Nothing in the BST forum either. Nothing, even though I don't think something like this, pre-release would be limited to that pursuant to "T&Cs."
In any event, feels like you are gaslighting me. I don't care about "don’t know what I don’t know.”
I'll stick with what I see with my lyin' eyes, and discount your "I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity" after you confidently say "dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price."
Don't say it if you can't talk about it. Otherwise, it does not exist.
Not T&C here or on BST - T&C of the various dealer sites and distribution lists which are invite and/or subscription only and do not permit reposting elsewhere.
Again, you’re speaking to things you don’t know. Strongly suggest you educate yourself if you want to have a meaningful opinion.
To be fair, your posting of anonymous offers with no details has little probative value and does lead to suspicion.
Sounds like you agree with @NJCoin and that these have no demand since you don’t believe any dealers have bids out on these. Guess we will find out very soon!
For as often as we are reminded about your dealer experience, would have thought you’d have seen some bids on these. But guess not.
That's a completely illogical non sequitur. I said no such thing and I think I've pushed more than enough arguments with NJ for a more correct understanding of my position to be easily determined.
As for my bids, they are secret like yours. Lol. Kidding aside, i am not making bids on these because they would be useless. At 2000 units, the people making locks are unlikely to be able to fulfill and more likely to back out if the price is higher.
This is exactly what I've been saying. Thanks for the support, but only to defend yourself.
The bids are all BS, because the bidders are only setting themselves up to be picked off if they bid high. If they bid low, they get nothing. If the seller sells low, the buy gets nothing.
The pre-sales for this are meaningless, unless you have a large dealer with a sterling reputation willing to take a big financial hit if things don't work out as expected. And no large dealer is going to set themselves up to be granting one way options either way here. Which is why the only things we are seeing are anonymous.
Again, I don't know Pure, but eBay is all low feedback sellers. A Pure was sketchy with the "dealer" trying to flip High Relief gold coins that ended up back at the Mint when the flip didn't work out. No reputable dealer operates like that. People here in the "swamp," taking shots on the Mint's dime, do that.
Maybe buyers haven't read the doom and gloom here.
Clearly. Also unsure exactly what buyers think they are buying, since sellers today have no way to guarantee they will have anything to deliver.
To the extent any of those reported transactions are even real, they are nothing more than guarantees that sellers will be receiving those prices if the market does not develop at those prices or higher. And that's assuming eBay won't let the buyers out if they want to cancel if the market turns out to be lower on July 16th.
You are certainly free to assign whatever value you want to those transactions. I assign none whatsoever, due to the caveats expressed above, and previously.
On something like this, with a total mintage of 2K, pre-sales are meaningless, unless the seller is reputable, and will go to the ends of the Earth to deliver, and take whatever loss is necessary to guarantee delivery. I don't see any such seller in any of your screenshots above.
I also don't think eBay will side with sellers if the pre-sales turn out to be way above the market, and the buyers want to cancel once they see the market develop.
So, it's a whole lotta nothin' as far as I am concerned. You can get excited. I'll wait to see completed sales on confirmed orders on the 16th, and then thereafter, after FOMO buyers get their fill, before admitting I was wrong about these. July 4th quarters are not $10K treasures either, although a lucky few might have been able to get that in the beginning if those were not shill sales, as they almost surely were.
After all, if I wanted to, I could sell to myself right now at $2,500, and you could capture that and post it, although I truly have nothing to sell and no interest in buying at that price. So it proves nothing, other than some folks are priming the pump. Let's wait and see what happens with the dump before doing a victory dance here.
Why would you sell to yourself and cost yourself 4.5% or more in fees?
I know you don't understand how Pure works but the orderbook for the silver is strong at $1550 for 100 units.
And $11k for 10 half oz gold:
A minute after these go live at the mint these orders will be filled. You can bank on it.
Maybe buyers haven't read the doom and gloom here.
Clearly. Also unsure exactly what buyers think they are buying, since sellers today have no way to guarantee they will have anything to deliver.
To the extent any of those reported transactions are even real, they are nothing more than guarantees that sellers will be receiving those prices if the market does not develop at those prices or higher. And that's assuming eBay won't let the buyers out if they want to cancel if the market turns out to be lower on July 16th.
You are certainly free to assign whatever value you want to those transactions. I assign none whatsoever, due to the caveats expressed above, and previously.
On something like this, with a total mintage of 2K, pre-sales are meaningless, unless the seller is reputable, and will go to the ends of the Earth to deliver, and take whatever loss is necessary to guarantee delivery. I don't see any such seller in any of your screenshots above.
I also don't think eBay will side with sellers if the pre-sales turn out to be way above the market, and the buyers want to cancel once they see the market develop.
So, it's a whole lotta nothin' as far as I am concerned. You can get excited. I'll wait to see completed sales on confirmed orders on the 16th, and then thereafter, after FOMO buyers get their fill, before admitting I was wrong about these. July 4th quarters are not $10K treasures either, although a lucky few might have been able to get that in the beginning if those were not shill sales, as they almost surely were.
After all, if I wanted to, I could sell to myself right now at $2,500, and you could capture that and post it, although I truly have nothing to sell and no interest in buying at that price. So it proves nothing, other than some folks are priming the pump. Let's wait and see what happens with the dump before doing a victory dance here.
Why would you sell to yourself and cost yourself 4.5% or more in fees?
I know you don't understand how Pure works but the orderbook for the silver is strong at $1550 for 100 units.
And $11k for 10 half oz gold:
A minute after these go live at the mint these orders will be filled. You can bank on it.
Maybe. Maybe not. That presupposes the folks buying from the Mint have access to Pure. And that the "strong bidders" don't get cold feet, like the High Relief gold seller did last year, if the eBay market does not develop as expected.
Even if so, that takes care of 200 units. What about the other 1800? As I said, I saw a big shot on Pure last year score a significant quantity of High Relief gold coins from the Mint's back door, find no takers, even with an assist from @wondercoin, and then return them to the Mint.
Sure, $150K isn't the several million at stake with the gold coins, but, still. I question how strong anything is on Pure if they don't have someone to flip them to. Just not impressed with what I saw on Pure last year, as I am not impressed with most things I see on eBay. If it's Magic Mike who is going to throw them on HSN for $4K+, then I guess anything is possible, but I wonder whether that audience will chase these, when they are used to buying Hot Wheels with similar mintages for $200 each.
Not saying these can't be winners. Just saying I'll believe it when I see it. I don't see the value, but will be thrilled for those who do, when they are given the opportunity to acquire them from the "strong" Pure bidders for $2500+.
To be honest, the gold looks like a loser with a bid for 10 at a 10% premium to the Mint price. I sure wouldn't throw $10K at that hoping to be one of the first 10 to hit that bid. Plus, where is the bid for the one ounce gold?
This whole thing could also very well crash and burn. The bidders are acting like these are FH silver privy medals. They aren't.
They might not find a market for it on the other side, since they aren't entering the market at $100 each, and only contain a half ounce of silver. People might not see value, or feel a need to own them, just because there are only 2K. Lots of things in this world have lower mintages, and no interest, at lower prices
@NJCoin said:
Whatever. But when their buy offers are super secret, insider only offers subject to NDAs, they don't really exist, since real buyers want their buy offers disseminated far and wide.
Because "most dealers" who "won't mingle in the swamp" don't actually have much of a business, do they? Certainly not retail, since that is, pretty much by definition, the swamp.
In the past when the mint did not allow dealers an allotted amount, it helped the aftermarket prices, especially when there was an HHL of only one is involved. You seem to be overlooking that.
These will be well distributed to as many buyers as possible due to the HHL. Many will likely not sell.
You also flip-flopped on the silver and now are in agreement with me. One down, two to go.
PS Some dealers might be hoping these don't sell out so they lift the HHL and can buy up what is left. We find out soon enough.
pfs buyer club, famous for lowballing, has made an offer for the silver and half ounce gold:
We are pleased to announce that we will be running a limited deal on the Freedom Ringing – Liberty Bell One-Half Ounce Silver Medal that the US Mint is selling on Thursday, July 16th at 12:00 PM ET.
The cost of each order (limit of one medal) will be $750.00 + $5.95 Shipping. We are offering $1,000.00 = a $244.05 profit.
Optional Add-On: We are also accepting a limited number of the One-Half Ounce Gold Liberty Bell Coins for an additional $250.10 profit and massive credit card spend!
@morgansforever said:
They could've made the 1/2 oz. silver a full oz., this is commemorating 250 years free from the crown, plus it's $750, jmo. If I were Mint director it would've been a full oz.
Size matters. It may not be as easy as you think
Nonsense. They figured out how to make an ounce of gold.
I promise you, they realized what they were doing with the mintage, apparently corrected figured people would get hot and bothered regardless, and then just cut another corner, as with so many other things in recent memory.
If they sell out, as it appears they will, they saved themselves $60K in silver expense and cost themselves nothing in sales. Yet another reason people should have no interest in these, but like Pavlovian dogs, they can't help themselves.
Just check out the Coin World article on what Minted Assets has planned for the ANA show. Far more interesting and beautiful than anything the US Mint is putting out this year. At a fraction of the mintage, and presumably a fraction of the cost. But not a US Mint monopoly product, so just a fraction of the interest. really calls into question the value of what the US Mint is selling.
Density difference. The oune of silver would be bigger than the ounce of gold.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Project Numismatics said:
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
Okay. Now back to the question -- what dealers and what prices?
I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity.
You’re operating in the. “don’t know what I don’t know” space with respect to the coin market but not willing to learn.
Yes. T&Cs. Can't exchange information.
Great, so don't hint at things you can't discuss. Easy peasy.
Someone wants to buy, but you can't disclose? Because, T&Cs? Since when? Sounds like nonsense to me.
Nothing in the BST forum either. Nothing, even though I don't think something like this, pre-release would be limited to that pursuant to "T&Cs."
In any event, feels like you are gaslighting me. I don't care about "don’t know what I don’t know.”
I'll stick with what I see with my lyin' eyes, and discount your "I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity" after you confidently say "dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price."
Don't say it if you can't talk about it. Otherwise, it does not exist.
Not T&C here or on BST - T&C of the various dealer sites and distribution lists which are invite and/or subscription only and do not permit reposting elsewhere.
Again, you’re speaking to things you don’t know. Strongly suggest you educate yourself if you want to have a meaningful opinion.
To be fair, your posting of anonymous offers with no details has little probative value and does lead to suspicion.
Sounds like you agree with @NJCoin and that these have no demand since you don’t believe any dealers have bids out on these. Guess we will find out very soon!
For as often as we are reminded about your dealer experience, would have thought you’d have seen some bids on these. But guess not.
That's a completely illogical non sequitur. I said no such thing and I think I've pushed more than enough arguments with NJ for a more correct understanding of my position to be easily determined.
As for my bids, they are secret like yours. Lol. Kidding aside, i am not making bids on these because they would be useless. At 2000 units, the people making locks are unlikely to be able to fulfill and more likely to back out if the price is higher.
This is exactly what I've been saying. Thanks for the support, but only to defend yourself.
The bids are all BS, because the bidders are only setting themselves up to be picked off if they bid high. If they bid low, they get nothing. If the seller sells low, the buy gets nothing.
The pre-sales for this are meaningless, unless you have a large dealer with a sterling reputation willing to take a big financial hit if things don't work out as expected. And no large dealer is going to set themselves up to be granting one way options either way here. Which is why the only things we are seeing are anonymous.
Again, I don't know Pure, but eBay is all low feedback sellers. A Pure was sketchy with the "dealer" trying to flip High Relief gold coins that ended up back at the Mint when the flip didn't work out. No reputable dealer operates like that. People here in the "swamp," taking shots on the Mint's dime, do that.
The difference is that I recognize that people are making legitimate offers. Just because i choose not to be one of them doesn't mean they don't exist.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
As someone who has sold a few million $ worth of bullion and mint coins on Pure, I assure you it is quite real. This whole "argument" you have is insane.
@NJCoin said:
Whatever. But when their buy offers are super secret, insider only offers subject to NDAs, they don't really exist, since real buyers want their buy offers disseminated far and wide.
Because "most dealers" who "won't mingle in the swamp" don't actually have much of a business, do they? Certainly not retail, since that is, pretty much by definition, the swamp.
In the past when the mint did not allow dealers an allotted amount, it helped the aftermarket prices, especially when there was an HHL of only one is involved. You seem to be overlooking that.
These will be well distributed to as many buyers as possible due to the HHL. Many will likely not sell.
You also flip-flopped on the silver and now are in agreement with me. One down, two to go.
PS Some dealers might be hoping these don't sell out so they lift the HHL and can buy up what is left. We find out soon enough.
I haven't "flip-flopped" on anything. I'm only saying people like you are clearly in a frenzy, so it's pretty clear you will be slamming to website tomorrow looking for a score. Not to add a half ounce of silver to your collection, but for a flip.
TBD whether the flip will be there. Seriously.
If half ounces of gold sit unloved at $10K, the people you hope to flip to might question the wisdom of sinking $2K+ into a half ounce of silver. Then where will you be?
Probably filling out your Mint return labels, en masse. Plenty of time to take a victory lap next week if you turn out to be right. No need to jump the gun, or claim a flip-flop.
I'm not going anywhere, and will happily admit I was wrong if the silvers settle in at $2K when the dust settles. I've done it before, and will almost certainly be doing it again.
Will you be doing the same if the golds don't sell out, as is looking increasingly likely?
@morgansforever said:
They could've made the 1/2 oz. silver a full oz., this is commemorating 250 years free from the crown, plus it's $750, jmo. If I were Mint director it would've been a full oz.
Size matters. It may not be as easy as you think
Nonsense. They figured out how to make an ounce of gold.
I promise you, they realized what they were doing with the mintage, apparently corrected figured people would get hot and bothered regardless, and then just cut another corner, as with so many other things in recent memory.
If they sell out, as it appears they will, they saved themselves $60K in silver expense and cost themselves nothing in sales. Yet another reason people should have no interest in these, but like Pavlovian dogs, they can't help themselves.
Just check out the Coin World article on what Minted Assets has planned for the ANA show. Far more interesting and beautiful than anything the US Mint is putting out this year. At a fraction of the mintage, and presumably a fraction of the cost. But not a US Mint monopoly product, so just a fraction of the interest. really calls into question the value of what the US Mint is selling.
Density difference. The oune of silver would be bigger than the ounce of gold.
So what? Do you really think that's what's driving it?
@Bullsitter said:
Seller on Ebay has 2 CONFIRMED orders.....
How can that be? I see 5 are now missing from ATS. You really think those are on eBay, being offered by someone with such low feedback, and didn't go to Mint insiders like Hollis who will be keeping them? Just more eBay BS as far as I am concerned.
Comments
Well, I did start the thread to discuss the Liberty Bells, and have not been dissatisfied with how the conversation has gone. I got what I hoped to get out of this discussion, regardless of it drifting off course at times. Same thing happens in most face to face conversations in real life though, so it’s fine.
I learned a lot about how people view this impending release. It’s a topic that creates some spirited debate, and that’s always welcome.
I wish everyone luck who wants one on Thursday, no matter what your intentions are with it. I’m anxious to watch it unfold
Maybe not. I can imagine so few being sold in the first 30 days that the Mint might adjust the mintage to 250 pieces. In which case the market could move above the issue price.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Might not be a waiting room as some thinking not even 2000 people will be wanting these.
I would take bets
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
TBD. Enough people seem to be worked up enough over it that I can see them slamming the website to take their $750 risk free shot. If the Mint did not accept returns, I think it would be a very different story.
Whether there is actually demand for these, with them being vindicated with a profitable flip, is the open question. I don't see it, but I could be wrong.
If not, the Mint will reap precisely what it has sown, and will see a ton of them coming back. The golds are an easier call for me. With the same mintage but geometrically higher prices, it's hard to see them selling out at all. If they do, there is really no room for a flip, so I see them being returned in large numbers.
All this said, I do think there will be a waiting room and an initial sell out of the silvers, because $750 is not $20K, 2K is a very low mintage for a US Mint product, and enough people are pumping these up to encourage people to take a shot at them.
Presales have picked up on Ebay.
Maybe buyers haven't read the doom and gloom here.
Demand is there for now, dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price and eBay solds further support.
It doesn’t take much mass market promotion to create enough demand to sell out such a low mintage.
When thinking about this, would one be willing to pay $750 for an 1876 1/2 oz. silver centennial medal? Not sure I would. Still considering. Any thoughts?
And buy prices on Pure also support the flip. Granted the > @Rdf said:
The previous 13 pages of this thread have plenty of thoughts on this already.
Clearly. Also unsure exactly what buyers think they are buying, since sellers today have no way to guarantee they will have anything to deliver.
To the extent any of those reported transactions are even real, they are nothing more than guarantees that sellers will be receiving those prices if the market does not develop at those prices or higher. And that's assuming eBay won't let the buyers out if they want to cancel if the market turns out to be lower on July 16th.
You are certainly free to assign whatever value you want to those transactions. I assign none whatsoever, due to the caveats expressed above, and previously.
On something like this, with a total mintage of 2K, pre-sales are meaningless, unless the seller is reputable, and will go to the ends of the Earth to deliver, and take whatever loss is necessary to guarantee delivery. I don't see any such seller in any of your screenshots above.
I also don't think eBay will side with sellers if the pre-sales turn out to be way above the market, and the buyers want to cancel once they see the market develop.
So, it's a whole lotta nothin' as far as I am concerned. You can get excited. I'll wait to see completed sales on confirmed orders on the 16th, and then thereafter, after FOMO buyers get their fill, before admitting I was wrong about these. July 4th quarters are not $10K treasures either, although a lucky few might have been able to get that in the beginning if those were not shill sales, as they almost surely were.
After all, if I wanted to, I could sell to myself right now at $2,500, and you could capture that and post it, although I truly have nothing to sell and no interest in buying at that price. So it proves nothing, other than some folks are priming the pump. Let's wait and see what happens with the dump before doing a victory dance here.
What dealers? At what prices?
Pinehurst is my usual go-to for reputable buy offers on hot Mint releases. They have not yet published anything for these, to my knowledge.
I'm not sure what to make of Pure. Again, where are people getting product to complete sales? If nowhere, then they are not real. I remember someone got their hands on a lot of High Relief Gold coins last year via the back door at the Mint and offered them on Pure, and then here. They magically appeared back on the Mint website after there were no takers.
So, does someone actually have something to sell there, or is it another eBay? TBD.
NJ will never admit he is or was wrong. Even in the past and present if there is proof, he just says it’s “make believe.” He’s done it before and will continue doing it again and again.
I think you’d really benefit from attending ANA summer seminar or some of the major shows (e.g. FUN). There’s a whole world out there!
It really doesn't matter if none of the sellers come through. The point is that there are prospective buyers at elevated prices.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Okay. Now back to the question -- what dealers and what prices?
I get it. I'm trying to ascertain whether or not the so called dealer buy offers are even real.
I honestly don't get why people still feel the need to stir things up like this, 14 pages into the thread, and 2 days before launch. We'll all know one way or the other soon enough, but eBay pre-sales today are no more legitimate than a month ago, unless someone on eBay actually has ABPP inventory they are selling.
And we know that they don't, and that the sellers have very little feedback. So it's nothing, other than an excuse to stir things up.
Many posters here use pre-sales as a gauge for the early market in mint releases. You are just mad it goes against what you claimed.
Not mad at all. Just pointing out that it is not legitimate when the supply will be so limited, and when the Mint conducted no advance sales of its own.
I recognize that you either don't understand or don't accept what I am saying, but pre-sales for this are nothing but pure fiction. They indicate nothing, and actual transactions once people have actual inventory to sell can and will be either far above or far below these prices.
You are showing $2400 today. You showed $1400 a few weeks ago.
If $2400 holds, do you really think anyone who thought they bought at $1400 a few weeks ago will actually receive anything other than a refund? If the price collapses to $1400, do you really think the $2400 buyer won't back out and be taken care by eBay?
Unless you are totally naive, you should understand that these pre-sales mean nothing, and indicate nothing. Other than people trying to rev up the market ahead of release, with the intent to get some to flip to anxious FOMO buyers before things settle down.
Where they will be when they settle down is the question. I'll be shocked if that ends up being significantly above $750, since I wouldn't even be interested at that price. TBD.
I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity.
You’re operating in the. “don’t know what I don’t know” space with respect to the coin market but not willing to learn.
Yes. T&Cs. Can't exchange information.
Great, so don't hint at things you can't discuss. Easy peasy.
Someone wants to buy, but you can't disclose? Because, T&Cs? Since when? Sounds like nonsense to me.
Nothing in the BST forum either. Nothing, even though I don't think something like this, pre-release would be limited to that pursuant to "T&Cs."
In any event, feels like you are gaslighting me. I don't care about "don’t know what I don’t know.”
I'll stick with what I see with my lyin' eyes, and discount your "I can’t violate T&Cs to satisfy your curiosity" after you confidently say "dealers are already offering to buy at well above issue price."
Don't say it if you can't talk about it. Otherwise, it does not exist.
The first rule of Liberty Bell Gold Coins and Silver Medal Club is: you do not talk about Liberty Bell Gold Coins and Silver Medal Club.
Yes, you are mad you have been so wrong thus far. Why don't you sell a liberty bell to yourself on Ebay for $100 and then you can spend the next five years telling us how right you were.
They could've made the 1/2 oz. silver a full oz., this is commemorating 250 years free from the crown, plus it's $750, jmo. If I were Mint director it would've been a full oz.
No. I am not "mad" "so far" because I am neither right nor wrong yet. Neither are you. I can't help it if you can't see it, but repeating the same thing over and over again is not going to make it true.
Oh, and you are not going to get the last word with me.
But, why, if people are willing to pay this for that? That would just result in an additional thousand ounces of silver they'd be flushing down the toilet.
The next move will be for them to make garbage like this out of copper nickel. Why not, if @HalfDime would be just as excited, as long as the mintage was low enough.
After all, the value is in the mintage. Not the fact that it's not even a coin, or the $30 worth of silver.
Not T&C here or on BST - T&C of the various dealer sites and distribution lists which are invite and/or subscription only and do not permit reposting elsewhere.
Again, you’re speaking to things you don’t know. Strongly suggest you educate yourself if you want to have a meaningful opinion.
Size matters. It may not be as easy as you think
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
To be fair, your posting of anonymous offers with no details has little probative value and does lead to suspicion.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
This is why most dealers avoid these threads, and won't mingle in the swamp with us.
Sounds like you agree with @NJCoin and that these have no demand since you don’t believe any dealers have bids out on these. Guess we will find out very soon!
For as often as we are reminded about your dealer experience, would have thought you’d have seen some bids on these. But guess not.
That's a completely illogical non sequitur. I said no such thing and I think I've pushed more than enough arguments with NJ for a more correct understanding of my position to be easily determined.
As for my bids, they are secret like yours. Lol. Kidding aside, i am not making bids on these because they would be useless. At 2000 units, the people making locks are unlikely to be able to fulfill and more likely to back out if the price is higher.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Yeah, I didn’t read 14 pages to try to discern the nuances of your position (TLDR!). Just responding to your apparent skepticism that any dealers would have a bid out above issue price.
As far as dealers backing out after commitment to sell to another dealer at an agreed (bid) price, it’s rare as it would destroy reputation. More likely that dealers with posted bids are not getting any commitments yet, just pre-positioning.
No, I'm not skeptical. Unlike NJ, I believe PURE is a real market and I take the eBay pre-sales at face value. My only point to you was that maybe you can see why NJ reacted the way he did to a very nebulous post (didn't even include price or number of units). If he's not accepting the posted PURE bids, he's not going to accept such nebulous information.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Welp, if it's a super secret buy offer, I guess they aren't that interested in buying. Are they?
Either way, if you were not at liberty to publicly post, then you don't publicly post. You don't obliquely make reference, and then say sorry, can't talk. That's nothing, and doesn't make you look great. Or to be super knowledgeable insider. Just a gaslighter.
Nonsense. They figured out how to make an ounce of gold.
I promise you, they realized what they were doing with the mintage, apparently corrected figured people would get hot and bothered regardless, and then just cut another corner, as with so many other things in recent memory.
If they sell out, as it appears they will, they saved themselves $60K in silver expense and cost themselves nothing in sales. Yet another reason people should have no interest in these, but like Pavlovian dogs, they can't help themselves.
Just check out the Coin World article on what Minted Assets has planned for the ANA show. Far more interesting and beautiful than anything the US Mint is putting out this year. At a fraction of the mintage, and presumably a fraction of the cost. But not a US Mint monopoly product, so just a fraction of the interest. really calls into question the value of what the US Mint is selling.
Whatever. But when their buy offers are super secret, insider only offers subject to NDAs, they don't really exist, since real buyers want their buy offers disseminated far and wide.
Because "most dealers" who "won't mingle in the swamp" don't actually have much of a business, do they? Certainly not retail, since that is, pretty much by definition, the swamp.
This is exactly what I've been saying. Thanks for the support, but only to defend yourself.
The bids are all BS, because the bidders are only setting themselves up to be picked off if they bid high. If they bid low, they get nothing. If the seller sells low, the buy gets nothing.
The pre-sales for this are meaningless, unless you have a large dealer with a sterling reputation willing to take a big financial hit if things don't work out as expected. And no large dealer is going to set themselves up to be granting one way options either way here. Which is why the only things we are seeing are anonymous.
Again, I don't know Pure, but eBay is all low feedback sellers. A Pure was sketchy with the "dealer" trying to flip High Relief gold coins that ended up back at the Mint when the flip didn't work out. No reputable dealer operates like that. People here in the "swamp," taking shots on the Mint's dime, do that.
Why would you sell to yourself and cost yourself 4.5% or more in fees?
I know you don't understand how Pure works but the orderbook for the silver is strong at $1550 for 100 units.
And $11k for 10 half oz gold:
A minute after these go live at the mint these orders will be filled. You can bank on it.
Maybe. Maybe not. That presupposes the folks buying from the Mint have access to Pure. And that the "strong bidders" don't get cold feet, like the High Relief gold seller did last year, if the eBay market does not develop as expected.
Even if so, that takes care of 200 units. What about the other 1800? As I said, I saw a big shot on Pure last year score a significant quantity of High Relief gold coins from the Mint's back door, find no takers, even with an assist from @wondercoin, and then return them to the Mint.
Sure, $150K isn't the several million at stake with the gold coins, but, still. I question how strong anything is on Pure if they don't have someone to flip them to. Just not impressed with what I saw on Pure last year, as I am not impressed with most things I see on eBay. If it's Magic Mike who is going to throw them on HSN for $4K+, then I guess anything is possible, but I wonder whether that audience will chase these, when they are used to buying Hot Wheels with similar mintages for $200 each.
Not saying these can't be winners. Just saying I'll believe it when I see it. I don't see the value, but will be thrilled for those who do, when they are given the opportunity to acquire them from the "strong" Pure bidders for $2500+.
To be honest, the gold looks like a loser with a bid for 10 at a 10% premium to the Mint price. I sure wouldn't throw $10K at that hoping to be one of the first 10 to hit that bid. Plus, where is the bid for the one ounce gold?
This whole thing could also very well crash and burn. The bidders are acting like these are FH silver privy medals. They aren't.
They might not find a market for it on the other side, since they aren't entering the market at $100 each, and only contain a half ounce of silver. People might not see value, or feel a need to own them, just because there are only 2K. Lots of things in this world have lower mintages, and no interest, at lower prices
In the past when the mint did not allow dealers an allotted amount, it helped the aftermarket prices, especially when there was an HHL of only one is involved. You seem to be overlooking that.
These will be well distributed to as many buyers as possible due to the HHL. Many will likely not sell.
You also flip-flopped on the silver and now are in agreement with me. One down, two to go.
PS Some dealers might be hoping these don't sell out so they lift the HHL and can buy up what is left. We find out soon enough.
From disinterested and disgusted with these Bells, to completely obsessed with these Bells.
Or is it the draw of attention to self that's motivating the Madness?
pfs buyer club, famous for lowballing, has made an offer for the silver and half ounce gold:
Density difference. The oune of silver would be bigger than the ounce of gold.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The difference is that I recognize that people are making legitimate offers. Just because i choose not to be one of them doesn't mean they don't exist.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
As someone who has sold a few million $ worth of bullion and mint coins on Pure, I assure you it is quite real. This whole "argument" you have is insane.
Seller on Ebay has 2 CONFIRMED orders.....
I haven't "flip-flopped" on anything. I'm only saying people like you are clearly in a frenzy, so it's pretty clear you will be slamming to website tomorrow looking for a score. Not to add a half ounce of silver to your collection, but for a flip.
TBD whether the flip will be there. Seriously.
If half ounces of gold sit unloved at $10K, the people you hope to flip to might question the wisdom of sinking $2K+ into a half ounce of silver. Then where will you be?
Probably filling out your Mint return labels, en masse. Plenty of time to take a victory lap next week if you turn out to be right. No need to jump the gun, or claim a flip-flop.
I'm not going anywhere, and will happily admit I was wrong if the silvers settle in at $2K when the dust settles. I've done it before, and will almost certainly be doing it again.
Will you be doing the same if the golds don't sell out, as is looking increasingly likely?
Yes. What's your excuse? Last word?
So what? Do you really think that's what's driving it?
How can that be? I see 5 are now missing from ATS. You really think those are on eBay, being offered by someone with such low feedback, and didn't go to Mint insiders like Hollis who will be keeping them? Just more eBay BS as far as I am concerned.