@JoeBanzai said:
Byron Buxton has hit 23 Home Runs this year, 3rd in all of baseball and is slugging .601. He has stolen 7 bases without being caught and has stolen 31 bases the last 2 years without having been caught.
For his career Byron is at 91% in steals. #1 ALL TIME.
Hes not number 1 all time, hes number 1 with the new rules. He has a pitch clock, shorter base paths, and limited picked off attempts,. Anything stolen base wise has to be considered a separate category from the time of the rule changes compared to the past
>
>
>
He was 29-1 in 2017.
And he was 10-2 the year before and 14-3 in 2019. Hes a good base stealer for sure but as soon as all those changes were made all time goes out the window. He hasnt had to deal with the old conditions in his 30s where guys start getting caught more
If total POS Barry Bonds can be considered the all time HR king than, I'm going with Buxton as best percentage of bases stolen, NOT greatest base stealer.
"Good" base stealer!
@bgr said:
Since I never got my Bill James satisfaction I’ll add something he said about the worlds best base-bagger. You could split Rickey in two and you would have two HOFers. That is the bar for power and speed.
FINE!
That doesn't change the FACT that Buxton is the best power/speed player in baseball AT THIS TIME!
Bonds diddnt have rule changes and hit in parks that were not friendly to lefties. Petco hadnt moved the fences in yet.
Theres no way around the fact the rule changes have helped base stealers which is what they were designed to do
>
>
>
There's no way around the fact that Byron Buxton needs to be in ANY CURRENT discussion of players with a great combination of Speed & Power.
He's likely the BEST example at this time! His stolen base success rate (91.18 #1) is about 10% (10.418%) higher than Rickey's and his SLG is .077 higher as well. Almost all of his steals were before the bases were enlarged and the new rules were in effect.
Chase Utley looks like he was another guy with a great combination of Speed & Power.
Carlos Beltran might be the best. 312 SB 86% and a .486 SLG.
As far as mutant Bonds is concerned, not prosecuting him for buying and using illegal drugs allowed him to become something he was never going to be. So he was breaking not only the rules but the LAW and it was ignored.
HE'S A FRAUD!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai said:
Byron Buxton has hit 23 Home Runs this year, 3rd in all of baseball and is slugging .601. He has stolen 7 bases without being caught and has stolen 31 bases the last 2 years without having been caught.
For his career Byron is at 91% in steals. #1 ALL TIME.
Hes not number 1 all time, hes number 1 with the new rules. He has a pitch clock, shorter base paths, and limited picked off attempts,. Anything stolen base wise has to be considered a separate category from the time of the rule changes compared to the past
>
>
>
He was 29-1 in 2017.
And he was 10-2 the year before and 14-3 in 2019. Hes a good base stealer for sure but as soon as all those changes were made all time goes out the window. He hasnt had to deal with the old conditions in his 30s where guys start getting caught more
If total POS Barry Bonds can be considered the all time HR king than, I'm going with Buxton as best percentage of bases stolen, NOT greatest base stealer.
"Good" base stealer!
@bgr said:
Since I never got my Bill James satisfaction I’ll add something he said about the worlds best base-bagger. You could split Rickey in two and you would have two HOFers. That is the bar for power and speed.
FINE!
That doesn't change the FACT that Buxton is the best power/speed player in baseball AT THIS TIME!
Bonds diddnt have rule changes and hit in parks that were not friendly to lefties. Petco hadnt moved the fences in yet.
Theres no way around the fact the rule changes have helped base stealers which is what they were designed to do
>
>
>
There's no way around the fact that Byron Buxton needs to be in ANY CURRENT discussion of players with a great combination of Speed & Power.
He's likely the BEST example at this time! His stolen base success rate (91.18 #1) is about 10% (10.418%) higher than Rickey's and his SLG is .077 higher as well. Almost all of his steals were before the bases were enlarged and the new rules were in effect.
Chase Utley looks like he was another guy with a great combination of Speed & Power.
Carlos Beltran might be the best. 312 SB 86% and a .486 SLG.
As far as mutant Bonds is concerned, not prosecuting him for buying and using illegal drugs allowed him to become something he was never going to be. So he was breaking not only the rules but the LAW and it was ignored.
HE'S A FRAUD!
For Bonds nothing he was using was illegal in MLB and he was far from the first. Most of the charges against Balco got thrown out. Thats a different conversation though.
Beltran is definitely an underrated guy that people seem to forget about as a player and gets overshadowed by the debacle at the end of his career and stepping down as the Mets manager. He had 40 40 potential every year in his prime, He missed a 40 40 by 2 HRs and was usually at least a 20 20 until the back half
I dunno if Id ever really consider Utley a top base stealer. Very good player but reminds me of a better version of Uggala and Marcus Giles
@JoeBanzai said:
Byron Buxton has hit 23 Home Runs this year, 3rd in all of baseball and is slugging .601. He has stolen 7 bases without being caught and has stolen 31 bases the last 2 years without having been caught.
For his career Byron is at 91% in steals. #1 ALL TIME.
Hes not number 1 all time, hes number 1 with the new rules. He has a pitch clock, shorter base paths, and limited picked off attempts,. Anything stolen base wise has to be considered a separate category from the time of the rule changes compared to the past
>
>
>
He was 29-1 in 2017.
And he was 10-2 the year before and 14-3 in 2019. Hes a good base stealer for sure but as soon as all those changes were made all time goes out the window. He hasnt had to deal with the old conditions in his 30s where guys start getting caught more
If total POS Barry Bonds can be considered the all time HR king than, I'm going with Buxton as best percentage of bases stolen, NOT greatest base stealer.
"Good" base stealer!
@bgr said:
Since I never got my Bill James satisfaction I’ll add something he said about the worlds best base-bagger. You could split Rickey in two and you would have two HOFers. That is the bar for power and speed.
FINE!
That doesn't change the FACT that Buxton is the best power/speed player in baseball AT THIS TIME!
Bonds diddnt have rule changes and hit in parks that were not friendly to lefties. Petco hadnt moved the fences in yet.
Theres no way around the fact the rule changes have helped base stealers which is what they were designed to do
>
>
>
There's no way around the fact that Byron Buxton needs to be in ANY CURRENT discussion of players with a great combination of Speed & Power.
He's likely the BEST example at this time! His stolen base success rate (91.18 #1) is about 10% (10.418%) higher than Rickey's and his SLG is .077 higher as well. Almost all of his steals were before the bases were enlarged and the new rules were in effect.
Chase Utley looks like he was another guy with a great combination of Speed & Power.
Carlos Beltran might be the best. 312 SB 86% and a .486 SLG.
As far as mutant Bonds is concerned, not prosecuting him for buying and using illegal drugs allowed him to become something he was never going to be. So he was breaking not only the rules but the LAW and it was ignored.
HE'S A FRAUD!
For Bonds nothing he was using was illegal in MLB and he was far from the first. Most of the charges against Balco got thrown out. Thats a different conversation though.
Steroids were a controlled substance. ILLEGAL without a Doctors prescription. He should have been in jail.
U.S. law supersedes what some Business and or Union decides to allow in the workplace.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@bgr said:
I'm sure you've broken the law plenty of times - that's a particularly weak argument.
THAT'S what you're going with?
Yes. I’m saying that breaking the law here isn’t the crime and that’s a silly argument to flex here.
You’re also harmed by the fact that he was never convicted of anything. The drug in question, THG, was not a controlled substance - it was steroid adjacent. That the BALCO case was the impetus for making that class of synthetic illegal is proof of the ambiguity that existed.
Illegal without a doctors prescription was weak sauce. Did he cut you off in traffic too?
@bgr said:
I'm sure you've broken the law plenty of times - that's a particularly weak argument.
THAT'S what you're going with?
Yes. I’m saying that breaking the law here isn’t the crime and that’s a silly argument to flex here.
You’re also harmed by the fact that he was never convicted of anything. The drug in question, THG, was not a controlled substance - it was steroid adjacent. That the BALCO case was the impetus for making that class of synthetic illegal is proof of the ambiguity that existed.
Illegal without a doctors prescription was weak sauce. Did he cut you off in traffic too?
>
>
>
He admitted to using, just like I just admitted pilfering the #2. Both of us guilty, neither convicted.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@bgr said:
I'm sure you've broken the law plenty of times - that's a particularly weak argument.
THAT'S what you're going with?
Yes. I’m saying that breaking the law here isn’t the crime and that’s a silly argument to flex here.
You’re also harmed by the fact that he was never convicted of anything. The drug in question, THG, was not a controlled substance - it was steroid adjacent. That the BALCO case was the impetus for making that class of synthetic illegal is proof of the ambiguity that existed.
Illegal without a doctors prescription was weak sauce. Did he cut you off in traffic too?
>
>
>
He admitted to using, just like I just admitted pilfering the #2. Both of us guilty, neither convicted.
He admitted to using two substances; the cream and the clear, but that he didn't know what they were.
The result of the BALCO investigation was.
The clear was THG (tetrahydrogestrinone)
The cream was a testosterone - designed to mask the THG.
At the time BALCO was distributing THG it was not explicitly considered a controlled substance. This was a material argument which was never decided.
The anabolic steroid control act in 2004 closed the designer loophole for analogous concoctions. So it was not illegal when he supposedly used it even if he knew what it was and wasn't lying about that. I don't care what you think of Bonds dude but try some facts.
Nice bit of hyperbole with the pencil - I get it... make it seem like you don't understand basic concepts. Keep em guessing.
@JoeBanzai said:
Byron Buxton has hit 23 Home Runs this year, 3rd in all of baseball and is slugging .601. He has stolen 7 bases without being caught and has stolen 31 bases the last 2 years without having been caught.
For his career Byron is at 91% in steals. #1 ALL TIME.
Hes not number 1 all time, hes number 1 with the new rules. He has a pitch clock, shorter base paths, and limited picked off attempts,. Anything stolen base wise has to be considered a separate category from the time of the rule changes compared to the past
>
>
>
He was 29-1 in 2017.
And he was 10-2 the year before and 14-3 in 2019. Hes a good base stealer for sure but as soon as all those changes were made all time goes out the window. He hasnt had to deal with the old conditions in his 30s where guys start getting caught more
If total POS Barry Bonds can be considered the all time HR king than, I'm going with Buxton as best percentage of bases stolen, NOT greatest base stealer.
"Good" base stealer!
@bgr said:
Since I never got my Bill James satisfaction I’ll add something he said about the worlds best base-bagger. You could split Rickey in two and you would have two HOFers. That is the bar for power and speed.
FINE!
That doesn't change the FACT that Buxton is the best power/speed player in baseball AT THIS TIME!
Bonds diddnt have rule changes and hit in parks that were not friendly to lefties. Petco hadnt moved the fences in yet.
Theres no way around the fact the rule changes have helped base stealers which is what they were designed to do
>
>
>
There's no way around the fact that Byron Buxton needs to be in ANY CURRENT discussion of players with a great combination of Speed & Power.
He's likely the BEST example at this time! His stolen base success rate (91.18 #1) is about 10% (10.418%) higher than Rickey's and his SLG is .077 higher as well. Almost all of his steals were before the bases were enlarged and the new rules were in effect.
Chase Utley looks like he was another guy with a great combination of Speed & Power.
Carlos Beltran might be the best. 312 SB 86% and a .486 SLG.
As far as mutant Bonds is concerned, not prosecuting him for buying and using illegal drugs allowed him to become something he was never going to be. So he was breaking not only the rules but the LAW and it was ignored.
HE'S A FRAUD!
For Bonds nothing he was using was illegal in MLB and he was far from the first. Most of the charges against Balco got thrown out. Thats a different conversation though.
Steroids were a controlled substance. ILLEGAL without a Doctors prescription. He should have been in jail.
U.S. law supersedes what some Business and or Union decides to allow in the workplace.
They werent steroids. They werent that much different than what you could buy at a GNC at the time. It was essentially HGH, testosterone, some hormone used to treat anemia, and a cream that has the same effects of testosterone. The idiot running it got investigated for money laundering and tax fraud and investigated by the IRS. Most charges were thrown out and they over stepped their reach for trying to make a career with the conviction which they got from over charging him. 40 of the 42 charges were dropped
@JoeBanzai said:
Byron Buxton has hit 23 Home Runs this year, 3rd in all of baseball and is slugging .601. He has stolen 7 bases without being caught and has stolen 31 bases the last 2 years without having been caught.
For his career Byron is at 91% in steals. #1 ALL TIME.
Hes not number 1 all time, hes number 1 with the new rules. He has a pitch clock, shorter base paths, and limited picked off attempts,. Anything stolen base wise has to be considered a separate category from the time of the rule changes compared to the past
>
>
>
He was 29-1 in 2017.
And he was 10-2 the year before and 14-3 in 2019. Hes a good base stealer for sure but as soon as all those changes were made all time goes out the window. He hasnt had to deal with the old conditions in his 30s where guys start getting caught more
If total POS Barry Bonds can be considered the all time HR king than, I'm going with Buxton as best percentage of bases stolen, NOT greatest base stealer.
"Good" base stealer!
@bgr said:
Since I never got my Bill James satisfaction I’ll add something he said about the worlds best base-bagger. You could split Rickey in two and you would have two HOFers. That is the bar for power and speed.
FINE!
That doesn't change the FACT that Buxton is the best power/speed player in baseball AT THIS TIME!
Bonds diddnt have rule changes and hit in parks that were not friendly to lefties. Petco hadnt moved the fences in yet.
Theres no way around the fact the rule changes have helped base stealers which is what they were designed to do
>
>
>
There's no way around the fact that Byron Buxton needs to be in ANY CURRENT discussion of players with a great combination of Speed & Power.
He's likely the BEST example at this time! His stolen base success rate (91.18 #1) is about 10% (10.418%) higher than Rickey's and his SLG is .077 higher as well. Almost all of his steals were before the bases were enlarged and the new rules were in effect.
Chase Utley looks like he was another guy with a great combination of Speed & Power.
Carlos Beltran might be the best. 312 SB 86% and a .486 SLG.
As far as mutant Bonds is concerned, not prosecuting him for buying and using illegal drugs allowed him to become something he was never going to be. So he was breaking not only the rules but the LAW and it was ignored.
HE'S A FRAUD!
For Bonds nothing he was using was illegal in MLB and he was far from the first. Most of the charges against Balco got thrown out. Thats a different conversation though.
Steroids were a controlled substance. ILLEGAL without a Doctors prescription. He should have been in jail.
U.S. law supersedes what some Business and or Union decides to allow in the workplace.
They werent steroids. They werent that much different than what you could buy at a GNC at the time. It was essentially HGH, testosterone, some hormone used to treat anemia, and a cream that has the same effects of testosterone. The idiot running it got investigated for money laundering and tax fraud and investigated by the IRS. Most charges were thrown out and they over stepped their reach for trying to make a career with the conviction which they got from over charging him. 40 of the 42 charges were dropped
Yeah, Bonds wasn't taking steroids. He was just doubling up on Flintstone's chewables.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@bgr said:
I'm sure you've broken the law plenty of times - that's a particularly weak argument.
THAT'S what you're going with?
Yes. I’m saying that breaking the law here isn’t the crime and that’s a silly argument to flex here.
You’re also harmed by the fact that he was never convicted of anything. The drug in question, THG, was not a controlled substance - it was steroid adjacent. That the BALCO case was the impetus for making that class of synthetic illegal is proof of the ambiguity that existed.
Illegal without a doctors prescription was weak sauce. Did he cut you off in traffic too?
>
>
>
He admitted to using, just like I just admitted pilfering the #2. Both of us guilty, neither convicted.
He admitted to using two substances; the cream and the clear, but that he didn't know what they were.
The result of the BALCO investigation was.
The clear was THG (tetrahydrogestrinone)
The cream was a testosterone - designed to mask the THG.
At the time BALCO was distributing THG it was not explicitly considered a controlled substance. This was a material argument which was never decided.
The anabolic steroid control act in 2004 closed the designer loophole for analogous concoctions. So it was not illegal when he supposedly used it even if he knew what it was and wasn't lying about that. I don't care what you think of Bonds dude but try some facts.
>
Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@bgr said:
I'm sure you've broken the law plenty of times - that's a particularly weak argument.
THAT'S what you're going with?
Yes. I’m saying that breaking the law here isn’t the crime and that’s a silly argument to flex here.
You’re also harmed by the fact that he was never convicted of anything. The drug in question, THG, was not a controlled substance - it was steroid adjacent. That the BALCO case was the impetus for making that class of synthetic illegal is proof of the ambiguity that existed.
Illegal without a doctors prescription was weak sauce. Did he cut you off in traffic too?
>
>
>
He admitted to using, just like I just admitted pilfering the #2. Both of us guilty, neither convicted.
He admitted to using two substances; the cream and the clear, but that he didn't know what they were.
The result of the BALCO investigation was.
The clear was THG (tetrahydrogestrinone)
The cream was a testosterone - designed to mask the THG.
At the time BALCO was distributing THG it was not explicitly considered a controlled substance. This was a material argument which was never decided.
The anabolic steroid control act in 2004 closed the designer loophole for analogous concoctions. So it was not illegal when he supposedly used it even if he knew what it was and wasn't lying about that. I don't care what you think of Bonds dude but try some facts.
>
Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990
These weren’t covered hence why there was law to address boutique drugs because of BALCO. I already addressed this incorrect argument so why keep bringing it up?
The act you specify was specifically why Bonds did nothing wrong. Your example is the evidence which defeats your own argument.
@bgr said:
I'm sure you've broken the law plenty of times - that's a particularly weak argument.
THAT'S what you're going with?
Yes. I’m saying that breaking the law here isn’t the crime and that’s a silly argument to flex here.
You’re also harmed by the fact that he was never convicted of anything. The drug in question, THG, was not a controlled substance - it was steroid adjacent. That the BALCO case was the impetus for making that class of synthetic illegal is proof of the ambiguity that existed.
Illegal without a doctors prescription was weak sauce. Did he cut you off in traffic too?
>
>
>
He admitted to using, just like I just admitted pilfering the #2. Both of us guilty, neither convicted.
He admitted to using two substances; the cream and the clear, but that he didn't know what they were.
The result of the BALCO investigation was.
The clear was THG (tetrahydrogestrinone)
The cream was a testosterone - designed to mask the THG.
At the time BALCO was distributing THG it was not explicitly considered a controlled substance. This was a material argument which was never decided.
The anabolic steroid control act in 2004 closed the designer loophole for analogous concoctions. So it was not illegal when he supposedly used it even if he knew what it was and wasn't lying about that. I don't care what you think of Bonds dude but try some facts.
>
Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990
These weren’t covered hence why there was law to address boutique drugs because of BALCO. I already addressed this incorrect argument so why keep bringing it up?
The act you specify was specifically why Bonds did nothing wrong. Your example is the evidence which defeats your own argument.
>
>
>
Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@bgr said:
I'm sure you've broken the law plenty of times - that's a particularly weak argument.
THAT'S what you're going with?
Yes. I’m saying that breaking the law here isn’t the crime and that’s a silly argument to flex here.
You’re also harmed by the fact that he was never convicted of anything. The drug in question, THG, was not a controlled substance - it was steroid adjacent. That the BALCO case was the impetus for making that class of synthetic illegal is proof of the ambiguity that existed.
Illegal without a doctors prescription was weak sauce. Did he cut you off in traffic too?
>
>
>
He admitted to using, just like I just admitted pilfering the #2. Both of us guilty, neither convicted.
He admitted to using two substances; the cream and the clear, but that he didn't know what they were.
The result of the BALCO investigation was.
The clear was THG (tetrahydrogestrinone)
The cream was a testosterone - designed to mask the THG.
At the time BALCO was distributing THG it was not explicitly considered a controlled substance. This was a material argument which was never decided.
The anabolic steroid control act in 2004 closed the designer loophole for analogous concoctions. So it was not illegal when he supposedly used it even if he knew what it was and wasn't lying about that. I don't care what you think of Bonds dude but try some facts.
>
Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990
These weren’t covered hence why there was law to address boutique drugs because of BALCO. I already addressed this incorrect argument so why keep bringing it up?
The act you specify was specifically why Bonds did nothing wrong. Your example is the evidence which defeats your own argument.
>
>
>
Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990
Yes. It listed specific drugs. THG wasn’t one of them. Red and Green are both colors but Red is not Green. This is the concept you’re struggling with.
@bgr said:
I'm sure you've broken the law plenty of times - that's a particularly weak argument.
THAT'S what you're going with?
Yes. I’m saying that breaking the law here isn’t the crime and that’s a silly argument to flex here.
You’re also harmed by the fact that he was never convicted of anything. The drug in question, THG, was not a controlled substance - it was steroid adjacent. That the BALCO case was the impetus for making that class of synthetic illegal is proof of the ambiguity that existed.
Illegal without a doctors prescription was weak sauce. Did he cut you off in traffic too?
>
>
>
He admitted to using, just like I just admitted pilfering the #2. Both of us guilty, neither convicted.
He admitted to using two substances; the cream and the clear, but that he didn't know what they were.
The result of the BALCO investigation was.
The clear was THG (tetrahydrogestrinone)
The cream was a testosterone - designed to mask the THG.
At the time BALCO was distributing THG it was not explicitly considered a controlled substance. This was a material argument which was never decided.
The anabolic steroid control act in 2004 closed the designer loophole for analogous concoctions. So it was not illegal when he supposedly used it even if he knew what it was and wasn't lying about that. I don't care what you think of Bonds dude but try some facts.
>
Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990
These weren’t covered hence why there was law to address boutique drugs because of BALCO. I already addressed this incorrect argument so why keep bringing it up?
The act you specify was specifically why Bonds did nothing wrong. Your example is the evidence which defeats your own argument.
>
>
>
Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990
Yes. It listed specific drugs. THG wasn’t one of them. Red and Green are both colors but Red is not Green. This is the concept you’re struggling with.
>
>
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 (Pub. L. 101–647, 104 Stat. 4851, enacted November 29, 1990) is a United States federal law that placed anabolic steroids under Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act (CSA). The legislation also amended the Controlled Substances Act by defining anabolic steroids as "any drug or hormonal substance, chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone (other than estrogens, progestins, and corticosteroids) that promotes muscle growth", regulated human growth hormone, and established criminal penalties for their non-medical use and distribution of the substances. The Act was passed as Title XIX of the larger Crime Control Act of 1990.
Seems like red and green are clearly defined to me.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@bgr said:
I'm sure you've broken the law plenty of times - that's a particularly weak argument.
THAT'S what you're going with?
Yes. I’m saying that breaking the law here isn’t the crime and that’s a silly argument to flex here.
You’re also harmed by the fact that he was never convicted of anything. The drug in question, THG, was not a controlled substance - it was steroid adjacent. That the BALCO case was the impetus for making that class of synthetic illegal is proof of the ambiguity that existed.
Illegal without a doctors prescription was weak sauce. Did he cut you off in traffic too?
>
>
>
He admitted to using, just like I just admitted pilfering the #2. Both of us guilty, neither convicted.
He admitted to using two substances; the cream and the clear, but that he didn't know what they were.
The result of the BALCO investigation was.
The clear was THG (tetrahydrogestrinone)
The cream was a testosterone - designed to mask the THG.
At the time BALCO was distributing THG it was not explicitly considered a controlled substance. This was a material argument which was never decided.
The anabolic steroid control act in 2004 closed the designer loophole for analogous concoctions. So it was not illegal when he supposedly used it even if he knew what it was and wasn't lying about that. I don't care what you think of Bonds dude but try some facts.
>
Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990
These weren’t covered hence why there was law to address boutique drugs because of BALCO. I already addressed this incorrect argument so why keep bringing it up?
The act you specify was specifically why Bonds did nothing wrong. Your example is the evidence which defeats your own argument.
>
>
>
Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990
Yes. It listed specific drugs. THG wasn’t one of them. Red and Green are both colors but Red is not Green. This is the concept you’re struggling with.
>
>
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 (Pub. L. 101–647, 104 Stat. 4851, enacted November 29, 1990) is a United States federal law that placed anabolic steroids under Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act (CSA). The legislation also amended the Controlled Substances Act by defining anabolic steroids as "any drug or hormonal substance, chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone (other than estrogens, progestins, and corticosteroids) that promotes muscle growth", regulated human growth hormone, and established criminal penalties for their non-medical use and distribution of the substances. The Act was passed as Title XIX of the larger Crime Control Act of 1990.
Seems like red and green are clearly defined to me.
You’re not reading the law text Joe. The Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004 was passed specifically because THG and other designer drugs were not on the Schedule III list from the 1990 act. You think you’re arguing with me on this as if these facts are in dispute. The 2004 law was passed to close the very gap BALCO had exploited. I understand your argument though. It should have been illegal - it just WAS NOT because it was not a known steroid and only known steroids were on the Schedule III list - see the colors analogy for what it means.
You keep trying though. I respect the effort. In the end it’s a hollow victory because this is not about legality. Bonds hasn’t been ostracized from the HOF because he was a bad boy and did something illegal. It’s because that thing that you want to be illegal was related to cheating. Which is yet another hollow victory because cheating has always been part of baseball. So stack that all up and you are left with your opinion. You think Bonds is a fraud. Fine. But stick to facts for your justification of it.
You are conflating the general clause with the specific enumerated list. I can explain it if you really want. The clause you point out was precisely the reason that they were able to bring charges at all. In the end the rest of that sentence became crucial - the part you conveniently leave off - “to promote muscle growth”. This was something they would not try to prove and why the language was improved in the 2004 act. This is all history. Documented history. How can you even begin…
Maybe your confusion started with you not comprehending my original statement in bringing up the Mutant Bonds.
Bonds is the player listed as the all time HR leader in the record books, despite the fact that he cheated.
Buxton is the all time leader in stolen base percentage, he did it before the rules were changed and he doesn't cheat, that we know of.
You say Bonds didn't cheat. He would be in the HOF if he didn't cheat. Wrong is wrong, and what he did was wrong.
Setting aside the disagreement over whether he "broke the rules" or not, are you one of the people who believe he got that big and strong without Anabolic Steroids? Andro and a LOT of working out? Eggwhites and Flintstones plus and isometrics?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Grown men. Going at each other like Itchy and Scratchy. In a thread about some hot young dude currently tearing up MLB, once again degenerating into a tired, old debate over a dude who was relevant 25 years ago. Precious.
@ElMagoStrikeZone said:
Grown men. Going at each other like Itchy and Scratchy. In a thread about some hot young dude currently tearing up MLB, once again degenerating into a tired, old debate over a dude who was relevant 25 years ago. Precious.
Your opinion is duly noted. At my age, I'll blame it on senility.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@ElMagoStrikeZone said:
Grown men. Going at each other like Itchy and Scratchy. In a thread about some hot young dude currently tearing up MLB, once again degenerating into a tired, old debate over a dude who was relevant 25 years ago. Precious.
It’s important to hold the line on reality in this day and this place is fun.
@JoeBanzai said:
Maybe your confusion started with you not comprehending my original statement in bringing up the Mutant Bonds.
Bonds is the player listed as the all time HR leader in the record books, despite the fact that he cheated.
Buxton is the all time leader in stolen base percentage, he did it before the rules were changed and he doesn't cheat, that we know of.
You say Bonds didn't cheat. He would be in the HOF if he didn't cheat. Wrong is wrong, and what he did was wrong.
Setting aside the disagreement over whether he "broke the rules" or not, are you one of the people who believe he got that big and strong without Anabolic Steroids? Andro and a LOT of working out? Eggwhites and Flintstones plus and isometrics?
I think you’re moving the goalposts now from legality to cheating. So did you want to talk about guys like Perry and Ford and Schmidt and Aaron and Mantle too or just Bonds?
@JoeBanzai said:
I guess I should have known better than to ask a simple question.
Do I think Bonds got that big and strong without Analobic Steroids?
I would say steroids and more likely than not HGH and the whole BALCO thing kind of seals the deal. Oddly enough I saw Bonds at a restaurant within the last 6 months. I don't know him and I didn't like go up to him or anything like that - someone I was with pointed him out to me. He has slimmed down - head and all. I was responding to your incorrect statement of legality, but I'm not blind. I would put him in the HOF for his first 10 years, and then I would ignore those stats and I would put him in again for the next 10 years.
I really don't want to talk about anything other than the hottest player on this universe and the next... Corabin Carool and his Magic Bat! Carroll is having a great season.
If you do truly want to discuss the case of Barry Bonds and walk through legality and the morality of cheating and the impact of PEDs known or not let's do it in another thread. I think it's a very interesting topic.
@JoeBanzai said:
I guess I should have known better than to ask a simple question.
Do I think Bonds got that big and strong without Analobic Steroids?
I would say steroids and more likely than not HGH and the whole BALCO thing kind of seals the deal. Oddly enough I saw Bonds at a restaurant within the last 6 months. I don't know him and I didn't like go up to him or anything like that - someone I was with pointed him out to me. He has slimmed down - head and all. I was responding to your incorrect statement of legality, but I'm not blind. I would put him in the HOF for his first 10 years, and then I would ignore those stats and I would put him in again for the next 10 years.
I really don't want to talk about anything other than the hottest player on this universe and the next... Corabin Carool and his Magic Bat! Carroll is having a great season.
If you do truly want to discuss the case of Barry Bonds and walk through legality and the morality of cheating and the impact of PEDs known or not let's do it in another thread. I think it's a very interesting topic.
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I have had a similar debate with craig44, it just goes on and on.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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There's no way around the fact that Byron Buxton needs to be in ANY CURRENT discussion of players with a great combination of Speed & Power.
He's likely the BEST example at this time! His stolen base success rate (91.18 #1) is about 10% (10.418%) higher than Rickey's and his SLG is .077 higher as well. Almost all of his steals were before the bases were enlarged and the new rules were in effect.
Chase Utley looks like he was another guy with a great combination of Speed & Power.
Carlos Beltran might be the best. 312 SB 86% and a .486 SLG.
As far as mutant Bonds is concerned, not prosecuting him for buying and using illegal drugs allowed him to become something he was never going to be. So he was breaking not only the rules but the LAW and it was ignored.
HE'S A FRAUD!
Was it ignored? I don't remember but is Barry in the HOF? Remind me.
He will be someday... I want to hear more about the Raw Talent that is Der Uber Baseball SuperStud Candid Cablamo! How many triples today?
For Bonds nothing he was using was illegal in MLB and he was far from the first. Most of the charges against Balco got thrown out. Thats a different conversation though.
Beltran is definitely an underrated guy that people seem to forget about as a player and gets overshadowed by the debacle at the end of his career and stepping down as the Mets manager. He had 40 40 potential every year in his prime, He missed a 40 40 by 2 HRs and was usually at least a 20 20 until the back half
I dunno if Id ever really consider Utley a top base stealer. Very good player but reminds me of a better version of Uggala and Marcus Giles
Fire AJ Preller
Steroids were a controlled substance. ILLEGAL without a Doctors prescription. He should have been in jail.
U.S. law supersedes what some Business and or Union decides to allow in the workplace.
I'm sure you've broken the law plenty of times - that's a particularly weak argument.
THAT'S what you're going with?
Yes. I’m saying that breaking the law here isn’t the crime and that’s a silly argument to flex here.
You’re also harmed by the fact that he was never convicted of anything. The drug in question, THG, was not a controlled substance - it was steroid adjacent. That the BALCO case was the impetus for making that class of synthetic illegal is proof of the ambiguity that existed.
Illegal without a doctors prescription was weak sauce. Did he cut you off in traffic too?
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I BEG forgiveness.
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He admitted to using, just like I just admitted pilfering the #2. Both of us guilty, neither convicted.
He admitted to using two substances; the cream and the clear, but that he didn't know what they were.
The result of the BALCO investigation was.
At the time BALCO was distributing THG it was not explicitly considered a controlled substance. This was a material argument which was never decided.
The anabolic steroid control act in 2004 closed the designer loophole for analogous concoctions. So it was not illegal when he supposedly used it even if he knew what it was and wasn't lying about that. I don't care what you think of Bonds dude but try some facts.
Nice bit of hyperbole with the pencil - I get it... make it seem like you don't understand basic concepts. Keep em guessing.
They werent steroids. They werent that much different than what you could buy at a GNC at the time. It was essentially HGH, testosterone, some hormone used to treat anemia, and a cream that has the same effects of testosterone. The idiot running it got investigated for money laundering and tax fraud and investigated by the IRS. Most charges were thrown out and they over stepped their reach for trying to make a career with the conviction which they got from over charging him. 40 of the 42 charges were dropped
Fire AJ Preller
Yeah, Bonds wasn't taking steroids. He was just doubling up on Flintstone's chewables.
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Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990
These weren’t covered hence why there was law to address boutique drugs because of BALCO. I already addressed this incorrect argument so why keep bringing it up?
The act you specify was specifically why Bonds did nothing wrong. Your example is the evidence which defeats your own argument.
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Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990
Yes. It listed specific drugs. THG wasn’t one of them. Red and Green are both colors but Red is not Green. This is the concept you’re struggling with.
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The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 (Pub. L. 101–647, 104 Stat. 4851, enacted November 29, 1990) is a United States federal law that placed anabolic steroids under Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act (CSA). The legislation also amended the Controlled Substances Act by defining anabolic steroids as "any drug or hormonal substance, chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone (other than estrogens, progestins, and corticosteroids) that promotes muscle growth", regulated human growth hormone, and established criminal penalties for their non-medical use and distribution of the substances. The Act was passed as Title XIX of the larger Crime Control Act of 1990.
Seems like red and green are clearly defined to me.
You’re not reading the law text Joe. The Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004 was passed specifically because THG and other designer drugs were not on the Schedule III list from the 1990 act. You think you’re arguing with me on this as if these facts are in dispute. The 2004 law was passed to close the very gap BALCO had exploited. I understand your argument though. It should have been illegal - it just WAS NOT because it was not a known steroid and only known steroids were on the Schedule III list - see the colors analogy for what it means.
You keep trying though. I respect the effort. In the end it’s a hollow victory because this is not about legality. Bonds hasn’t been ostracized from the HOF because he was a bad boy and did something illegal. It’s because that thing that you want to be illegal was related to cheating. Which is yet another hollow victory because cheating has always been part of baseball. So stack that all up and you are left with your opinion. You think Bonds is a fraud. Fine. But stick to facts for your justification of it.
any drug or hormonal substance
You are conflating the general clause with the specific enumerated list. I can explain it if you really want. The clause you point out was precisely the reason that they were able to bring charges at all. In the end the rest of that sentence became crucial - the part you conveniently leave off - “to promote muscle growth”. This was something they would not try to prove and why the language was improved in the 2004 act. This is all history. Documented history. How can you even begin…
Maybe your confusion started with you not comprehending my original statement in bringing up the Mutant Bonds.
Bonds is the player listed as the all time HR leader in the record books, despite the fact that he cheated.
Buxton is the all time leader in stolen base percentage, he did it before the rules were changed and he doesn't cheat, that we know of.
You say Bonds didn't cheat. He would be in the HOF if he didn't cheat. Wrong is wrong, and what he did was wrong.
Setting aside the disagreement over whether he "broke the rules" or not, are you one of the people who believe he got that big and strong without Anabolic Steroids? Andro and a LOT of working out? Eggwhites and Flintstones plus and isometrics?
Grown men. Going at each other like Itchy and Scratchy. In a thread about some hot young dude currently tearing up MLB, once again degenerating into a tired, old debate over a dude who was relevant 25 years ago. Precious.
Your opinion is duly noted. At my age, I'll blame it on senility.
It’s important to hold the line on reality in this day and this place is fun.
Good sports. Just giving ya both a nudge. Carry on.
Am I "Itchy" or "Scratchy"?
I had to look them up as I stopped watching cartoons about 60 years ago.
I would recommend two stupid dogs. Greatness.
I think you’re moving the goalposts now from legality to cheating. So did you want to talk about guys like Perry and Ford and Schmidt and Aaron and Mantle too or just Bonds?
I guess I should have known better than to ask a simple question.
Do I think Bonds got that big and strong without Analobic Steroids?
I would say steroids and more likely than not HGH and the whole BALCO thing kind of seals the deal. Oddly enough I saw Bonds at a restaurant within the last 6 months. I don't know him and I didn't like go up to him or anything like that - someone I was with pointed him out to me. He has slimmed down - head and all. I was responding to your incorrect statement of legality, but I'm not blind. I would put him in the HOF for his first 10 years, and then I would ignore those stats and I would put him in again for the next 10 years.
I really don't want to talk about anything other than the hottest player on this universe and the next... Corabin Carool and his Magic Bat! Carroll is having a great season.
If you do truly want to discuss the case of Barry Bonds and walk through legality and the morality of cheating and the impact of PEDs known or not let's do it in another thread. I think it's a very interesting topic.
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I have had a similar debate with craig44, it just goes on and on.