In case you didn't know the story behind the 1964 silver dollar
SoFlo
Posts: 551 ✭✭✭✭
The U.S. government claims to have destroyed every single 1964 Peace dollar. Yet for decades, collectors have relentlessly hunted for the ghosts that escaped the melting pot.
In 1964, Congress authorized the minting of 45 million new silver dollars. This was largely driven by political pressure from Senate Majority Leader Mike Mansfield, who represented Montana—a state where heavy silver dollars were still popular in daily commerce and casinos. Following this mandate, the Denver Mint struck exactly 316,076 Peace dollars dated 1964.
However, the timing was economically disastrous. By the mid-1960s, the global price of silver was rising rapidly. The raw metal in a silver dollar was quickly approaching a value greater than the one dollar stamped on its face. Coin hoarders and speculators were already pulling older silver coins out of circulation to melt them down or save them for a profit. Treasury officials realized that releasing the newly minted 1964 Peace dollars would be futile; the public would hoard them immediately, and the coins would never circulate in everyday commerce.
In May 1965, the Treasury abruptly changed course and ordered all 316,076 newly minted coins to be melted. The Denver Mint carried out the destruction under heavy security, meticulously weighing the melted silver to ensure every last coin was obliterated.
What makes the 1964 Peace dollar so captivating today is the persistent rumor that a few examples escaped the melting pot. Mint employees or Treasury officials might have slipped a few into their pockets, swapping them for older, common silver dollars of equal weight to keep the accounting ledgers perfectly balanced. Because the government never officially issued the 1964 batch, any surviving piece is legally considered stolen federal property.
If a genuine example were ever to surface, it would instantly become one of the most valuable coins in the world, easily commanding millions of dollars at auction. Yet, the person who stepped forward with it would immediately face the threat of confiscation by the Secret Service—a dramatic legal fate that has historically befallen other unreleased currency, like the 1933 Double Eagle gold coin. To this day, no genuine 1964 Peace dollar has ever been publicly authenticated, leaving it as a multi-million-dollar myth locked in the imaginations of coin collectors.
Whether you think you can or, think you can't, you're right.
Comments
Dan Carr's Overestrike 1964 Peace Dollar is the best "fantasy coin/impossible date" ever. The copyright laws don't apply if its an impossible date. Of course I got one from Moonlight years ago. If only I could remember which box its in ;-)
In 1965, the government announced that all 1964 Peace dollars had been melted. In 1970, two unknown specimens were found in a Treasury vault and were destroyed. The discovery of those two dollars proves that the government cannot confirm that every last 1964 Peace dollar that had been struck in 1965 has, in fact, been destroyed.
"Impossible date"? No, it's not.
It's too bad a specimen or two were not saved for the Smithsonian
Carr's documentation is quite extensive. If a genuine, and illegal, original Mint specimen were to surface, it would be easily differentiated and subject to seizure and potential prosecution.
I don't think "impossible date" makes it not a counterfeit. Try and print 1876 federal reserve notes and see how quickly the Feds show up at your house.
Can i really make as many 1940 Buffalo nickels as I want?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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Think about this question:
Would the US Mint in Philadelphia make dies for 1964 Peace Dollars and ship those dies to Denver without doing any trial strikes first ?
I think Philadelphia would perform some striking tests before providing Denver with dies and ordering them to strike hundreds of thousands of coins.
All the 1964 Peace Dollars struck in Denver were destroyed in 1965. According to people that worked there, the coins never reached the cashier. So the story is false that employees could buy such a coin. It was likely the new 1964 Kennedy Half Dollars that people remember being able to buy from the Mint cashier.
However, as for the 1964 Peace Dollars that were destroyed in the early 1970s (according to the US Treasury), those were trial strikes made in Philadelphia and destroyed in Philadelphia or Washington DC.
The official government position is that no 1964 silver dollars were issued .
The 1965 Coinage Act was passed by Congress and enacted on 23 July 1965.
It banned the US Mint from issuing or producing silver dollars for five years.
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According to reports, the coins being melted were counted by weight. You can't know they were all destroyed. Nobody can.
Coin World: "Treasury Department officials ruled in May 1973 that the 1964-D Peace dollar is illegal to own."
Think about this question:
Why would the Treasury Department make such a ruling nearly 10 years later if they knew conclusively that the coins did not exist?
Are you saying that some 1964-dated Peace Dollars were test struck in Philadelphia?
@SoFlo
Just passing along a message from ATS:
please tell SoFlo) of the post "In case you didn't know the story behind the 1964 silver dollar" to read
the Guide Book of Peace Dollars. "Chapter 4 – The Lost 1964-D Peace Dollars" covers the facts and discrepancies in about 30 pages including Denver Mint flow charts, etc.
I don't know. I've read reports that test strikes were done in Denver. Do you have a source for trials in Philadelphia?
So if you were to find one, a 33 or a 64 how could you sell it?
I’m thinking eBay or the BST not a good idea.
To Cover Their Collective Butts, should one surface they could confiscate it.
I had a math test a couple weeks ago for a class I wasn't in and didn't know the material for. For one of the questions I wrote a completely irrelevant short essay about 1964 peace dollars.
If you overstrike them on genuine US nickels, absolutely. As far as the treasury department is concerned, if you're not creating new money, you're not counterfeiting.
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That is where all the tooling (hubs and dies) were created.
So I think that it is likely some were struck in Philadelphia.
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Ummm... how could you sell "stolen" merchandise? Contact the Russian mob.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
A. The post is responded to said only "impossible dates.
B. The "not creating new money" is also incorrect per the US code. Simply creating dies to strike coins is illegal, regardless of planchet.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/487
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The above quoted post on the NGC forum was from Roger Burdette. And he subsequently posted:
“Thanks....the chapter is about 30 pages (although it felt like 320 when researching it)
Also,a few test pieces were made at Philadelphia and destroyed, as were two sent to the Technology Office in Washington. We have the affidavits.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The “negative” can’t be proven, we all know that, so despite all reports and assertions to the contrary, people will continue to insist that 1964 Peace Silver Dollars exist. It simply cannot be absolutely proven that none exist.
This is perhaps the most enduring of all Numismatic myths.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
There really are some great numismatic mysteries and the 1964 Peace Dollar is among the best. What is the chance that an employee exchanged a few common date MS Peace Dollars for a few of the newly struck 1964-D? Was there some type of quality control in place to prevent this from happening? Seems as if the numbers matched… everyone would be happy… or would they?
There remain unanswered questions surrounding the issuance of the 1971-S Eisenhower Type I proof. Another good mystery except we actually have coins and boxes that generate more questions than answers.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Look at some of the silly "errors" that have come out of the mint over the years and ask this question again.
That is my point… how do we know this didn’t happen if there would be minimal downside risk?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I thought so. My intention wasn't to question it, but to amplify it.
If it's illegal, prosecute it.
This would make a great movie. The employee that switches a bag, the sale to a Russian Mobster, the bait and switch of a DC overstrike, the numismatic sleuth trying to find them, the arrest by government agents, the twist of an inside job, and the final scene of a stack of silver collecting dust on a shelf somewhere...
Chicago or NY.
I didn't know this.
Pete
There couldn’t have been that many to check. The whole mintage wasn’t dispersed, only coins sold to employees. I would hate being the employee trying to pull a fast one on the mint with the prospect of losing their job if caught.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
There were over 300,000 struck… off hand, I don’t recall the exact amount and I am not motivated to look it up. It really does not seem far fetched for an employee involved in the melting to have exchanged a very small number of 1922 Peace Dollars for the newly struck 1964 D if the numbers matched at the end of the process. I am not writing that this happened… just not ruling out the possibility until the melting process is documented and explained how and why such a scheme is not possible.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
"When the truth becomes a legend, print the legend".
If what is illegal? You've combined about 3 different things here.
Henning was prosecuted even for his "impossible date/mm" combinations.
If you overstrike 1916-D dimes on 1931 dimes, you will be prosecuted even though it is not "new money".
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I haven't combined anything, that was you. It's not that hard to figure out the illegal thing I referenced in the post i replied to that specifically stated something was illegal. And, the first post i replied to specifically mentioned 1940 buffalo nickels, not 1916 d, or any other dimes. Deliberately "misunderstanding" is what allistics do, though, so I'm not surprised.
God bless the black market.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
If Dan can, you can too. Knock yourself out.
Also pretty sure the feds won't be showing up at anyone's house to confiscate Federal Reserve Notes dated 40 years before the passage of the Federal Reserve Act.
As @dcarr evidences every time he issues a new fantasy overstrike, it is not considered "counterfeit," by virtue of the fact that he does it openly and has not been prosecuted. Regardless of whether or not you agree, or think there is something to argue about here.
This had nothing to do with Dan.
There are numerous "impossible date" dollars of SE Asian origin which everyone thinks of as counterfeit. So "impossible date" alone isn't really the issue, is it?
I GUARANTEE if you print an FRN of the modern design dated 1876, they will be at your house. The "impossible date" won't save you.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
No. I made 2 separate comments to 2 separate people about 2 different arguments. Neither of which appears to be to be sufficient legality taken by themselves.
There are numerous "impossible date" SE Asian dollars that have always been viewed as counterfeit, as well as the aforementioned Henning nickels.
And simply "not making new money" by itself is not sufficient for the aforementioned reasons.
So when you said "if it's illegal", I'm really not sure what "it" is. There's no intentional misunderstanding. Perhaps you are being intentionally opaque... or maybe you could have just clarified what you meant.
And, no, I've not been diagnosed as being in the spectrum. Not sure what that was supposed to mean.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I replied to your question about 1940 buffalo nickels. You can make as many 1940 buffalo nickels as you want as long as you're overstriking them on genuine US nickels, since you won't be creating new nickels and no 1940 buffalo nickels were made by the US mint, so you wouldn't be counterfeiting. As far as the "illegal" thing, maybe this screenshot will help. Also, "allistic" is a neutral term used to refer to someone not on the spectrum. I could call you "normie" if you prefer.
This suggests an interesting hypothetical:
Can a counterfeit become a fantasy strike?
Suppose an actual 1964 Peace dollar turns up one day. That would mean a 1964 Peace dollar struck outside the mint would no longer be a fantasy but rather, a counterfeit. If that newly-discovered Peace dollar is subsequently destroyed, do the counterfeits revert to fantasy strikes or will they, going forward, remain counterfeits?
That's an interesting question. My personal opinion is that since the 1964 d peace dollars weren't issued and the government maintains the position that they're illegal to own, nothing should change if a genuine example ever comes to light. Legally speaking, who knows what would happen. I wouldn't be surprised to see it go back and forth, with years of court cases and miles of red tape.
" My personal opinion is that since the 1964 d peace dollars weren't issued and the government maintains the position that they're illegal to own..."
Like 1933 double eagles?
Then you agree with me. Not making new money is not sufficient, nor is impossible dates.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Here is one of the Most Impossiblest dates in American coinage. Do we all agree that this is a COUNTERFEIT U.S. coin?
(From Ikeigwin's post on CoinTalk. Google 1787 Half Dollar images and it pops us.)
BTW, seeing one of these on the cover of Don Taxay's "Counterfeit, Mis-Struck and Unofficial U.S. Coins" helped lead me down the path that brought me here today.
Nope. My statement "if it's illegal, prosecute it" was meant in the same spirit as "why don't you strike them with lightning?"
That's my fault for being vague, i apologize for that.
This stuff is ruining the Hobby.
Pete
Theres some way scary looking counterfeits out there 😳
If it was made by Dan Carr, it's not. If it was made by the Chinese, it is. Have you not been listening? 😀
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Does it hurt to admit you agree with me? It's okay. I understand.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.