Paradox: 1847 Dated Barber Dime with "S" Mint Mark - Need Technical Insight
WireStrike64
Posts: 21 ✭
Greetings to all,
I am sharing a very puzzling piece from my collection. It appears to be a Barber Dime, but the date on the obverse is clearly 1847.
As we know, the Barber design did not begin until 1892. The reverse shows the standard 'ONE DIME' wreath with an 'S' mint mark.
Technical observations:
Weight: 2.50 grams.
Magnet Test: Non-magnetic.
This seems to be a major discrepancy between the design era and the date shown. I would value your expert opinions on whether this is a known fantasy strike, a potential mule, or a modern reproduction.
I have attached photos of both the obverse and reverse for your evaluation. Thank you for your time and expertise!
0
Comments
I don't see any photos but if it is as you describe then it is a counterfeit.
I made a mistake and couldn't attach the photo within the message. I shared it again under the same thread, but I'm not sure if it is visible.
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1847-10c/4589
that's a seated liberty design by Designer:
Robert Ball Hughes/Christian Gobrecht
it is a counterfeit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Mint
Normal seated dime.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@jmlanzaf Normal?
There were no dimes minted in San Francisco in 1847…
Your photos show:
1. Counterfeit seated dime obverse with 1847 date shown. But 1847 is too small, not a genuine US coin.
2. Barber dime type reverse with S mint mark (1892-1916)
It is a counterfeit.
compare date size with a genuine 1847 seated dime:
https://www.seateddimevarieties.com/pictorial/1847.htm (4 known obverse dies)
Are your photos both of the same coin?
Fair. But it's not a barber dime which is what I was looking at.
Looking more carefully, it's princely a sandwich coin or maybe magician coin with the reverse of a barber dime and the obverse of a seated dime.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Definitely a counterfeit. As noted above the size of the numerals in "1847" is wrong for the type; those proportions are more fitting for the 1847 dollar. Nobody inside the mint would be re-creating an entirely new 1847 obverse to use with an 1890s-era reverse.
So assuming that there hasn't been a horrible mix-up with the photography (a dollar obverse mixed with a Barber dime reverse), it must be a concoction.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded the DPOTD twice.
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1897-s-10c/4814
I made a mistake and couldn't attach the photo within the message. I shared it again under the same thread, but I'm not sure if it is visible.> @yosclimber said:
My apologies for the clutter; I just wanted to be certain by consulting expert opinions. I will set this piece aside now. Thank you to everyone for the clear analysis and for settling the matter on this specific coin.
I see a regular dime, way cool
The San Francisco mint did not exist in 1847 so how can this be a "regular dime"?
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"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
For a totally bogus coin. There the 3rd pot of caffeine
.
No, it is entirely 100% a modern fabrication (probably Chinese origin), and no part of it is older than about 25 years or so (and probably more recent than that).
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Looks like an alteration. Kind of like a magician's coin. Two halves of different dimes turned into a single coin.
Back in the early 80's or so I wrote an article for the "Gobrecht Journal" about how some Seated Liberty denominations had the 13 obverse stars pointed towards the rim, while other denominations had the stars turned 30 degrees so that the notch between two points was facing towards the rim.
I know that I have mentioned this phenomenon here in these forums, but our search function is useless for finding such mentions. I do not have the energy to find and scan the original "G J" article.
FWIW, the 1847 obverse in the OP has the stars pointing towards the rim, while the genuine 1847 dime shown has the other star alignment.
TD
supposedly there are over 6500 ages of old threads. try viewing the last ones.
i've tried searching for items using specific terms i've used in the past and have not found many old results. gone? ghosts?
i tried looking for just gobrecht journal and stars and your handle and did not find anything discussing the stars. perhaps it is some ghost threads that were there that aren't there now.
I looked it up in my index (Excel file) and found it in under 1 minute.
It helped that I knew his actual name, of course.
https://sites.google.com/view/clintcummins/liberty-seated-collectors-club-gobrecht-journal
It is from March 1997, Gobrecht Journal #68, starting on page 1. It can be read on the Newman Numismatic Portal here:
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/514072
I could post the page images here, but I'd prefer to do it on a separate thread.
I was not aware of this article, and I appreciate this interesting aspect of Seated denominations.
I have developed a feel for identifying Seated dime obverses that are mislabelled as half dimes, as happens frequently on ebay.
Seated dimes have a wider head than half dimes.
Searching on this forum is notoriously difficult. Using google search works better, but I didn't try it first, given that I knew about the Gobrecht Journal index.
I tried google search using this search text:
site:forums.collectors.com "Liberty Seated" "Star Alignment" CaptHenway
I got 6 results. Most were about obv/rev die alignment in Gobrecht dollars. One was about star alignment on Seated quarters, but it's an old thread where the photos are now gone. It did identify a fake, though.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/823595/opinions-on-this-coin-based-only-on-the-obverse
@yosclimber
I truly admire and appreciate your vast knowledge of early US coinage numismatics.
You are a beacon of truth without being snarky or intimidating…
Thank you so much!
Yes, it is very clear now that this coin is a fake. Thank you
I am benefiting greatly from these analyses. I have high respect for everyone's opinions and the time and effort invested here
Please feel free to repost the article for reference.
I remember when I first noticed the star alignment differences I wrote to John McCloskey asking if it had ever been written about before, and he said no, and that he was surprised that nobody else had ever noticed it.
TD
Modern fake. Obverse stolen from seated dollar, reverse from barber dime.
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