Fred had unique opportunity for a hands examination of up to five 1913 V nickels and determined the ones he looked at shared same collar die marker, thus he decided those in hand were struck at same point in time. I do not recall what this specific collar marker was but he seemed satisfied with his conclusion.
Personally I would assume they were struck in 1913 as that's where eventual 1919 owner/seller of all 5 worked at in 1913 era Philly Mint.
Mint die production access is key, deep pocket numismatists in Philly were the goal. Use an obverse die with 191 and add the fourth number, the 3. Then load it in press and stamp out 5. Then go find a new job. So many fun things were created at Philly in 1860s for collectors, so there was a history of shenanigans for profit to look back on. I think all five remained together after that transaction.
Happy Monday Fred !
The collar for the 1913 Liberty Head Nickel was a 3 part segmented collar. There were 3 raised collar marks equidistance from eachother. All of the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels had these collar marks, which helped to authenticate the ‘missing’ coin and helped authenticate all of them being struck at the same time. Fred would have a better story/account/explanation since he viewed them all together.
Did your gold Buffalo have similar markings?
Excellent question, Andy!
No.
When Fred and I examined it raw (not certified) at the Long Beach coin show, before being submitted to PCGS, it had no collar marks like those on the 1913 Liberty Head nickels.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Since this is a thread on mistakes being made, apparently I am guilty of this as well.
I stand corrected on my recollection of there being 3 collar marks equidistant from each other.
Fred saw them in person and he fully explained the markings.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Mike, I wasn’t talking about segmented collar lines. I was talking about very fine lines that would not be visible with the naked eye. That’s why I called them “ballistic lines“ similar to how they match bullets to guns.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
@FredWeinberg said:
Mike, I wasn’t talking about segmented collar lines. I was talking about very fine lines that would not be visible with the naked eye. That’s why I called them “ballistic lines“ similar to how they match bullets to guns.
Yes, I corrected myself in my post above.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@asheland said:
I gotta say, this is the most interesting thread I’ve read in quite some time!
I hope Fred Weinberg posts some stories in here, too!
I look forward to coming back and seeing what is posted going forward from here…
I will post a new story today. This one is about genuine Mint dies, taken out of the Mint, and were struck over struck coins. They were certified without the proper designation, since they were not struck inside the Mint. Eventually it was determined what exactly they were. (Yes, I handled these too).
@Byers said:
The only ‘mark’ noticeable was the test cut.
That is a seriously cool error coin!
About as cool as it gets!
Thank you Asheland!
It definitely created a buzz when discovered, certified details, certified straight, sold for 400k and then crossed to PCGS…
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@FredWeinberg said:
Mike, I wasn’t talking about segmented collar lines. I was talking about very fine lines that would not be visible with the naked eye. That’s why I called them “ballistic lines“ similar to how they match bullets to guns.
Yes, I corrected myself in my post above.
Good thing you cleared that up. I was about to throw the red challenge flag.
TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
“ There was intense discussion in the numismatic community over whether this die trial is authentic or counterfeit. Although most experts believe it to be a counterfeit, there are a few experts that still feel that it might possibly be genuine.”
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
“ There was intense discussion in the numismatic community over whether this die trial is authentic or counterfeit. Although most experts believe it to be a counterfeit, there are a few experts that still feel that it might possibly be genuine.”
A few world class experts, some publicly on this thread stated that they are not convinced, you and Dan Carr being among them. A few other world class experts, have privately expressed the same feeling, that it may be genuine, but don’t want to get involved online…
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Here is an example of a unique off metal, given 4 different descriptions as it traveled through it’s journey.
It was raw in a Heritage Auction described as an ‘original strike in silver’, which is not the proper identification, since it was struck on a U. S. Wartime silver 5 Cent planchet.
Then certified by NGC ‘on 20 Cent planchet’.
Then after lab analysis, certified by NGC as ‘on U.S. 5C blank’.
Then correctly identified as ‘struck on U.S. silver 5C planchet’ and reholdered by NGC.
In 1942, the U.S. Mint struck Jefferson Nickels out of two different compositions. Copper Nickel and with a 35% silver composition.
So this coin shows 4 different descriptions. One by Heritage Auctions and 3 by NGC.
The 3rd attempt correctly identified the denomination of the host planchet (U.S. 5 Cent planchet), but only on the 4th attempt was the complete and accurate description placed on the insert.
Once again, I must repeat that in my opinion PCGS and NGC do a wonderful job authenticating and grading. And Heritage Auctions does a wonderful job describing, marketing and auctioning coins, but occasionally mistakes are made.
Below are images of the four different descriptions and a link to a CoinWeek article published today about this unique off metal and it’s journey.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
FWIW, 1942 Bolivia 50 Centavos were struck in 95% Copper/ 5% Zinc in Philadelphia in 1943 (but dated 1942), and also "restruck" in Potosi reportedly from dies of lower relief than the Philadelphia strikings.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
@CaptHenway said:
FWIW, 1942 Bolivia 50 Centavos were struck in 95% Copper/ 5% Zinc in Philadelphia in 1943 (but dated 1942), and also "restruck" in Potosi reportedly from dies of lower relief than the Philadelphia strikings.
Did they have the same planchet supplier?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@CaptHenway said:
FWIW, 1942 Bolivia 50 Centavos were struck in 95% Copper/ 5% Zinc in Philadelphia in 1943 (but dated 1942), and also "restruck" in Potosi reportedly from dies of lower relief than the Philadelphia strikings.
Did they have the same planchet supplier?
My reference book does not say who made the planchets struck in Potosi.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
@CaptHenway said:
FWIW, 1942 Bolivia 50 Centavos were struck in 95% Copper/ 5% Zinc in Philadelphia in 1943 (but dated 1942), and also "restruck" in Potosi reportedly from dies of lower relief than the Philadelphia strikings.
Did they have the same planchet supplier?
My reference book does not say who made the planchets struck in Potosi.
Just wondered if there might be a trace metal difference
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@CaptHenway said:
FWIW, 1942 Bolivia 50 Centavos were struck in 95% Copper/ 5% Zinc in Philadelphia in 1943 (but dated 1942), and also "restruck" in Potosi reportedly from dies of lower relief than the Philadelphia strikings.
Yes, and thanks for pointing that out.
Numista notes:
“Owing to WWII conflict, coins minted at Philadelphia were not enough to cover needs, so a second strike was made at Potosí on 1943, but showing "1942"; this was the last time Potosí minted coins for the Bolivian government.”
NGC notes:
“Restrike - poor detail. Medal rotation strike.”
Here are images of an original and restrike:
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
I wonder if Philadelphia just shipped all of the used dies to Potosi and Potosi simply6 re-used them, which could explain the "weaker relief" attributed to the Potosi strikes, or if Potosi copied them in some manner? Many 1922-D Lincoln cents struck from excessively overused dies could be described as having "weaker relief."
I do not know the Bolivian issue, so I have no idea what happened.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
@CaptHenway said:
I wonder if Philadelphia just shipped all of the used dies to Potosi and Potosi simply6 re-used them, which could explain the "weaker relief" attributed to the Potosi strikes, or if Potosi copied them in some manner? Many 1922-D Lincoln cents struck from excessively overused dies could be described as having "weaker relief."
I do not know the Bolivian issue, so I have no idea what happened.
In my opinion, the Bolivia dies were shipped to Potosi. And restrikes obviously were struck.
Here is what I base that on. Past history.
Here are Uncancelled Costa Rica Obverse & Reverse Dies, made by the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia, for the 1897 Gold 10 Colones
and 20 Colones, which were struck at the Philadelphia Mint. Certified by NGC.
I own them.
The Costa Rica Central Bank Museum lists two 1897 20 Colones dies and four undated 10 Colones dies in their collection.
Obviously they were shipped from the Philadelphia Mint. They were not restruck.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Sorry to chime in so late, but since this was on the most recent discussion list here are my 2 cents worth: It sucks if the grading agency first destroys the value of the coin in the market, and then later certifies it. That is like stealing money from the first dealer and handing it to the other. Seems like the grading companies are liable for damages. I have no law degree, but I have lawyers in the family. Never sell a coin to a lawyer.
“When you don't know what you're talking about, it's hard to know when you're finished.” - Tommy Smothers
@rooksmith said:
Sorry to chime in so late, but since this was on the most recent discussion list here are my 2 cents worth: It sucks if the grading agency first destroys the value of the coin in the market, and then later certifies it. That is like stealing money from the first dealer and handing it to the other. Seems like the grading companies are liable for damages. I have no law degree, but I have lawyers in the family. Never sell a coin to a lawyer.
Speaking as the former Senior Authenticator for the American Numismatic Association, I can assure you that all of the major AUTHENTICATION AND GRADING companies took and take their jobs very seriously, and yet we are all human. As my dear friend of 50+ years, Bill Fivaz, often says, “The last perfect man died 2,000 years ago.”
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Comments
Excellent question, Andy!
No.
When Fred and I examined it raw (not certified) at the Long Beach coin show, before being submitted to PCGS, it had no collar marks like those on the 1913 Liberty Head nickels.
The only ‘mark’ noticeable was the test cut.
Since this is a thread on mistakes being made, apparently I am guilty of this as well.
I stand corrected on my recollection of there being 3 collar marks equidistant from each other.
Fred saw them in person and he fully explained the markings.
Mike, I wasn’t talking about segmented collar lines. I was talking about very fine lines that would not be visible with the naked eye. That’s why I called them “ballistic lines“ similar to how they match bullets to guns.
Yes, I corrected myself in my post above.
Fun & informative thread !
This forum remains my favorite site !
Are there other online venues I might visit with high caliber observations & expertise ?
Lindy
My YouTube Channel
That is a seriously cool error coin!
About as cool as it gets!
My YouTube Channel
Hands-down, the best coin forum anywhere on the Internet!
My YouTube Channel
Thank you Asheland!
It definitely created a buzz when discovered, certified details, certified straight, sold for 400k and then crossed to PCGS…
Good thing you cleared that up. I was about to throw the red challenge flag.
TD
https://minterrornews.com/news-4-7-26-counterfeit-1859-liberty-gold-proof-reverse-die-trial.html
I remain unconvinced.
T.D.
That is why the last paragraph says:
“ There was intense discussion in the numismatic community over whether this die trial is authentic or counterfeit. Although most experts believe it to be a counterfeit, there are a few experts that still feel that it might possibly be genuine.”
A few world class experts, some publicly on this thread stated that they are not convinced, you and Dan Carr being among them. A few other world class experts, have privately expressed the same feeling, that it may be genuine, but don’t want to get involved online…
Next story:
Here is an example of a unique off metal, given 4 different descriptions as it traveled through it’s journey.
It was raw in a Heritage Auction described as an ‘original strike in silver’, which is not the proper identification, since it was struck on a U. S. Wartime silver 5 Cent planchet.
Then certified by NGC ‘on 20 Cent planchet’.
Then after lab analysis, certified by NGC as ‘on U.S. 5C blank’.
Then correctly identified as ‘struck on U.S. silver 5C planchet’ and reholdered by NGC.
In 1942, the U.S. Mint struck Jefferson Nickels out of two different compositions. Copper Nickel and with a 35% silver composition.
So this coin shows 4 different descriptions. One by Heritage Auctions and 3 by NGC.
The 3rd attempt correctly identified the denomination of the host planchet (U.S. 5 Cent planchet), but only on the 4th attempt was the complete and accurate description placed on the insert.
Once again, I must repeat that in my opinion PCGS and NGC do a wonderful job authenticating and grading. And Heritage Auctions does a wonderful job describing, marketing and auctioning coins, but occasionally mistakes are made.
Below are images of the four different descriptions and a link to a CoinWeek article published today about this unique off metal and it’s journey.
https://coinweek.com/unique-bolivia-1942-50-centavos-struck-on-a-u-s-wartime-nickel-planchet/
FWIW, 1942 Bolivia 50 Centavos were struck in 95% Copper/ 5% Zinc in Philadelphia in 1943 (but dated 1942), and also "restruck" in Potosi reportedly from dies of lower relief than the Philadelphia strikings.
Did they have the same planchet supplier?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
My reference book does not say who made the planchets struck in Potosi.
Just wondered if there might be a trace metal difference
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Yes, and thanks for pointing that out.
Numista notes:
“Owing to WWII conflict, coins minted at Philadelphia were not enough to cover needs, so a second strike was made at Potosí on 1943, but showing "1942"; this was the last time Potosí minted coins for the Bolivian government.”
NGC notes:
“Restrike - poor detail. Medal rotation strike.”
Here are images of an original and restrike:
These latest stories are above my pay grade, yet please- keep them coming!
I wonder if Philadelphia just shipped all of the used dies to Potosi and Potosi simply6 re-used them, which could explain the "weaker relief" attributed to the Potosi strikes, or if Potosi copied them in some manner? Many 1922-D Lincoln cents struck from excessively overused dies could be described as having "weaker relief."
I do not know the Bolivian issue, so I have no idea what happened.
In my opinion, the Bolivia dies were shipped to Potosi. And restrikes obviously were struck.
Here is what I base that on. Past history.
Here are Uncancelled Costa Rica Obverse & Reverse Dies, made by the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia, for the 1897 Gold 10 Colones
and 20 Colones, which were struck at the Philadelphia Mint. Certified by NGC.
I own them.
The Costa Rica Central Bank Museum lists two 1897 20 Colones dies and four undated 10 Colones dies in their collection.
Obviously they were shipped from the Philadelphia Mint. They were not restruck.
Sorry to chime in so late, but since this was on the most recent discussion list here are my 2 cents worth: It sucks if the grading agency first destroys the value of the coin in the market, and then later certifies it. That is like stealing money from the first dealer and handing it to the other. Seems like the grading companies are liable for damages. I have no law degree, but I have lawyers in the family. Never sell a coin to a lawyer.
Speaking as the former Senior Authenticator for the American Numismatic Association, I can assure you that all of the major AUTHENTICATION AND GRADING companies took and take their jobs very seriously, and yet we are all human. As my dear friend of 50+ years, Bill Fivaz, often says, “The last perfect man died 2,000 years ago.”