@Barberian said:
What is a better venue? Don't they want some feedback on the services they provide for which customers pay substantial fees? Reporting these problems to customer service generates no effective response. In fact, my correspondence with PCGS customer service in the past has been hilarious.
The lone exception to this has been @PCGS_Hy who has provided excellent customer service in dealing with problems that apparently the rest of their PCGS CS crew simply cannot handle.
What I'm learning is that attributions need to be done by other companies such as Varslab. However, I first have to make sure they erase their erroneous attribution on my holdered coin as well as their Coin Facts page for WB-2. Otherwise, I'm out $60.
They seriously need to hire better attributors.
I've had the same issues on moderns when it comes to clearly missing a designation they that do recognize. And there is a large number that they just don't attribute. So I feel your pain.
This forum continues to be an interesting experience. I can only imagine what forums open to political discussion and other controversial subjects must be like. I won’t be finding out. I have trouble enough sleeping just watching the news.
I feel it in my wallet. What is disappointing is that PCGS properly identified my WB-3 and the rare WB-4, but won't identify WB-5? I was hoping to have all five known DMs properly attributed in PCGS holders. WB-5 is clearly legitimate - it's simply a new pairing of known obverse and reverse dies that were used in the DMs they do attribute such as WB-1 and WB-2.
Other SLH die marriage collectors have told me that they were able to get new DMs not listed in Bugert's registries recognized by sending in the publications where they are described. Why can't they do that with the now well-established WB-5?
'
From the note I received from CS, it's clear they do not take attributions seriously. Not seriously enough to hire someone knowledgeable and more importantly, eager to work with coin DMs. A HUGE part of my disappointment is that I did species-level attribution work on very small insects for a living. One doesn't get to choose what species they want to identify or switch names on legit, published species in my field.
'
To me, the difference in peoples' ability in doing close identification work reflects one's attitude toward the task. Many people are simply not comfortable working with microscopes whereas 'scopes are one of my favorite toys (3 sitting on my desk now with a fiber optic light system). I could come in as a new coin DM attributor with experience limited to SLHs and still do a good job with other series. I've done that before from scratch with smaller objects. My aptitude with bugs was entirely driven by my strong desire towards getting identifications 100% correct to do indicator species analyses properly.
I need to find an attribution service with a similar attitude towards close-in identification work. Guys who want to be experts in their field. Guys who sank the necessary thousands of hours of microscope work to get there. Varslab might be a good candidate.
The coin literally just arrived in the mail. It's labeled incorrectly as a WB-2, so it has to go back and be redone, and its image needs to be removed from the 1874-S WB-2 CoinFacts page. If they cannot make those corrections and accept that this is a WB-5, then I'll ask for a refund of my attribution fees. Maybe I can send in my WB-2 with it so PCGS can compare the two DMs and I can at least get my WB-2 attributed and the DM added to its label. @PCGS_Hy has the right attitude, IMO, and will probably want to correct this mistake.
@HeatherBoyd said: @MFeld, @tradedollarnut is correct, unfortunately, pinned threads tend to be glossed over. Maybe next time I'll go with a punchy title and then close it
Heather, try adding the word VaultBox. Always worked for me! 🤣😂
Or even better. Free coins!
Proud follower of Christ! I love the USA! Land of the Bright and Beautiful! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
@mr1931S said:
In America, the spirit of free speech often does go sideways.
.
How many times must you be reminded? - "Freedom of speech" does not include "Freedom of consequences"!!
You are not reminding of anything I don't already know. Spirit of freedom of speech entails quite few things but one thing that immediately comes to mind is to question. Question authority. Living in constant fear of suffering consequences that will most likely never happen is not for me.
Einstein’s view of God was non-traditional and pantheistic, focusing on the harmony, order, and intelligibility of the cosmos rather than a personal deity. His quotes reveal a profound respect for the universe’s mysteries, a belief in rational laws, and a moral philosophy grounded in compassion and understanding, bridging science and spirituality.
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
@mr1931S said:
In America, the spirit of free speech often does go sideways.
.
How many times must you be reminded? - "Freedom of speech" does not include "Freedom of consequences"!!
You are not reminding of anything I don't already know. Spirit of freedom of speech entails quite few things but one thing that immediately comes to mind is to question. Question authority. Living in constant fear of suffering consequences that will most likely never happen is not for me.
This imaginary "spirit of..." that you've created has never existed and SHOULD NOT exist. There is a reason why the U.S. Supreme Court carved out time and place exceptions.
You cannot go up to people and make insulting or mocking comments. You cannot make racist or sexist comments in the workplace. You cannot make threats or incite violence. And these are all GOVERNMENT exceptions for "freedom of expression".
A private enterprise, like PCGS, can "punish" you for simply saying "Christmas" if they want. There is no "freedom of speech" or "freedom of expression" for private entities or individuals in the Constitution or anywhere else.
You simply do not understand the basics of "freedom of expression".
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@Barberian said:
Another PCGS attribution story. Is it a happy story? A story of competent attribution work? A story about money well spent?
Of course not! PCGS takes your money along with your coin collecting happiness.
.
I submitted an 1874-S WB-5 (R7) for attribution along with Bill Bugert's published diagnosis, and my own notes on separating the WB-5 from the WB-2 using arrow position relative to the date. This was the result - it's now the new plate coin for WB-2!
.
.
Now I await another message from Customer Service like this one after they ignored the information provided on my submission sheet and botched identifying a prominent 1855/54 overdate (a Redbook variety) as a normal date. PCGS_Hy stepped in to fix things and PCGS lost money correcting that "mechanical error."
.
PCGS Customer Service
www.pcgs.comS
From:info@pcgs.com
To: barberpirate@coinorama.com
Thu, Sep 19 at 10:35 AM
Hello Barberian,
Thank you for your patience!
The graders feel the coin has been designated correctly.
Thank you. Have a nice day.
.
"Dave? . . . . . . . Dave's not here." (Cheech and Chong)
.
I should have sent a WB-2 along with the rare WB-5 to facilitate identification, but my WB-2 is already graded, and it would likely cause confusion. Three years ago, I literally purchased and submitted a WB-3 '74-S just to send along with my WB-4 so that they wouldn't screw up attributing the rare WB-4. They got it right that time.
.
Scratch that. I just received word that PCGS doesn't recognize the die marriage, even though it was described 11 years ago by Bill Bugert, and is indeed a legit DM obvious to anyone familiar with the date (WB-5 is Obverse 1 with Reverse B; WB-2 is Obverse 2 with Reverse B ). WB-5 isn't recognized (WHY?!!!) so they called it WB-2 (DOUBLE WHY?!!) PCGS hasn't determined which published die marriages they deem legit and worthy for attribution, which is UNBELIEVABLE!!! Apparently, they only attribute DMs that are common. Huh? Why would anyone care to have a common DM attributed? I'm an insect taxonomist (insect taxonomy and coin DM attribution are virtually identical tasks) and this has to be the dumbest, craziest thing I have ever read.
. PCGS, GET OUT OF THE ATTRIBUTION BUSINESS! If you cannot recognize legitimate rare DMs that were published 11 years ago, you are just screwing people for $$$ and hurting the hobby.
They don't know it was attributed correctly, they don't think it was attributed correctly, they feeeeeeel it was attributed correctly. Telling.
@mr1931S said:
In America, the spirit of free speech often does go sideways.
.
How many times must you be reminded? - "Freedom of speech" does not include "Freedom of consequences"!!
You are not reminding of anything I don't already know. Spirit of freedom of speech entails quite few things but one thing that immediately comes to mind is to question. Question authority. Living in constant fear of suffering consequences that will most likely never happen is not for me.
This imaginary "spirit of..." that you've created has never existed and SHOULD NOT exist. There is a reason why the U.S. Supreme Court carved out time and place exceptions.
You cannot go up to people and make insulting or mocking comments. You cannot make racist or sexist comments in the workplace. You cannot make threats or incite violence. And these are all GOVERNMENT exceptions for "freedom of expression".
A private enterprise, like PCGS, can "punish" you for simply saying "Christmas" if they want. There is no "freedom of speech" or "freedom of expression" for private entities or individuals in the Constitution or anywhere else.
You simply do not understand the basics of "freedom of expression".
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
This is correct insomuch that it always has been determined by whomever is deciding the rules. This obviously applies to PCGS. Using your example, if someone were to be banned for writing "Christmas" causing harm as to a religious belief may not hold up in certain Courts; although being banned for that example would a giant stretch for harm, getting terminated for same may not be.
The Congress, just like private entities, decide "carve outs". Look at the second amendment " A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed". Established law and precedent. In reality, it is littered with both Federal and State "carve outs". Not advocating one way or the other, just an example.
All of this, including the Bill of Rights and how private entities establish and interpret rules, will always be dependent on the people in charge of the power.
First, you have the fired up ones, the ones with spirit. Then you have the laws that define the boundaries that the spirited ones must recognize when interacting with others to avoid suffering consequences.
Have I said anything new?
Einstein’s view of God was non-traditional and pantheistic, focusing on the harmony, order, and intelligibility of the cosmos rather than a personal deity. His quotes reveal a profound respect for the universe’s mysteries, a belief in rational laws, and a moral philosophy grounded in compassion and understanding, bridging science and spirituality.
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
@mr1931S said:
In America, the spirit of free speech often does go sideways.
.
How many times must you be reminded? - "Freedom of speech" does not include "Freedom of consequences"!!
You are not reminding of anything I don't already know. Spirit of freedom of speech entails quite few things but one thing that immediately comes to mind is to question. Question authority. Living in constant fear of suffering consequences that will most likely never happen is not for me.
This imaginary "spirit of..." that you've created has never existed and SHOULD NOT exist. There is a reason why the U.S. Supreme Court carved out time and place exceptions.
You cannot go up to people and make insulting or mocking comments. You cannot make racist or sexist comments in the workplace. You cannot make threats or incite violence. And these are all GOVERNMENT exceptions for "freedom of expression".
A private enterprise, like PCGS, can "punish" you for simply saying "Christmas" if they want. There is no "freedom of speech" or "freedom of expression" for private entities or individuals in the Constitution or anywhere else.
You simply do not understand the basics of "freedom of expression".
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
This is correct insomuch that it always has been determined by whomever is deciding the rules. This obviously applies to PCGS. Using your example, if someone were to be banned for writing "Christmas" causing harm as to a religious belief may not hold up in certain Courts; although being banned for that example would a giant stretch for harm, getting terminated for same may not be.
The Congress, just like private entities, decide "carve outs". Look at the second amendment " A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed". Established law and precedent. In reality, it is littered with both Federal and State "carve outs". Not advocating one way or the other, just an example.
All of this, including the Bill of Rights and how private entities establish and interpret rules, will always be dependent on the people in charge of the power.
I was thinking more of a business instructing their employees to say Happy Holidays rather than Merry Christmas. However, point taken.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Employee permitted to say "Happy Christmas" or "Merry Holidays" is the compromise that wins the union's approval.
Einstein’s view of God was non-traditional and pantheistic, focusing on the harmony, order, and intelligibility of the cosmos rather than a personal deity. His quotes reveal a profound respect for the universe’s mysteries, a belief in rational laws, and a moral philosophy grounded in compassion and understanding, bridging science and spirituality.
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
@mach19 said:
I TRULY wish we could track down the folk's who hijack these threads .....AND ELIMINATE THEM !!!
As distressing as this comment is I do wonder what it was before the edit.
When someone makes an outrageous post, it's always fun to use the quote feature to capture it so when they change or delete their post, there's still a record of their original post.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Comments
I've had the same issues on moderns when it comes to clearly missing a designation they that do recognize. And there is a large number that they just don't attribute. So I feel your pain.
A thread dedicated to this topic was already closed.
Now will Heather be forced to close her own thread because it was hijacked? 🤔
I certainty understand the frustration, but the other option is to just do grading with no attribution by PCGS, and then attribution by someone else.
This forum continues to be an interesting experience. I can only imagine what forums open to political discussion and other controversial subjects must be like. I won’t be finding out. I have trouble enough sleeping just watching the news.
I feel it in my wallet. What is disappointing is that PCGS properly identified my WB-3 and the rare WB-4, but won't identify WB-5? I was hoping to have all five known DMs properly attributed in PCGS holders. WB-5 is clearly legitimate - it's simply a new pairing of known obverse and reverse dies that were used in the DMs they do attribute such as WB-1 and WB-2.
Other SLH die marriage collectors have told me that they were able to get new DMs not listed in Bugert's registries recognized by sending in the publications where they are described. Why can't they do that with the now well-established WB-5?
'
From the note I received from CS, it's clear they do not take attributions seriously. Not seriously enough to hire someone knowledgeable and more importantly, eager to work with coin DMs. A HUGE part of my disappointment is that I did species-level attribution work on very small insects for a living. One doesn't get to choose what species they want to identify or switch names on legit, published species in my field.
'
To me, the difference in peoples' ability in doing close identification work reflects one's attitude toward the task. Many people are simply not comfortable working with microscopes whereas 'scopes are one of my favorite toys (3 sitting on my desk now with a fiber optic light system). I could come in as a new coin DM attributor with experience limited to SLHs and still do a good job with other series. I've done that before from scratch with smaller objects. My aptitude with bugs was entirely driven by my strong desire towards getting identifications 100% correct to do indicator species analyses properly.
I need to find an attribution service with a similar attitude towards close-in identification work. Guys who want to be experts in their field. Guys who sank the necessary thousands of hours of microscope work to get there. Varslab might be a good candidate.
The coin literally just arrived in the mail. It's labeled incorrectly as a WB-2, so it has to go back and be redone, and its image needs to be removed from the 1874-S WB-2 CoinFacts page. If they cannot make those corrections and accept that this is a WB-5, then I'll ask for a refund of my attribution fees. Maybe I can send in my WB-2 with it so PCGS can compare the two DMs and I can at least get my WB-2 attributed and the DM added to its label. @PCGS_Hy has the right attitude, IMO, and will probably want to correct this mistake.
So in light of all this.....
Guess I will be attending the monthly coin show in Knoxville this weekend........
Or even better. Free coins!
Proud follower of Christ! I love the USA! Land of the Bright and Beautiful! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
.
How many times must you be reminded? - "Freedom of speech" does not include "Freedom of consequences"!!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
You are not reminding of anything I don't already know. Spirit of freedom of speech entails quite few things but one thing that immediately comes to mind is to question. Question authority. Living in constant fear of suffering consequences that will most likely never happen is not for me.
Einstein’s view of God was non-traditional and pantheistic, focusing on the harmony, order, and intelligibility of the cosmos rather than a personal deity. His quotes reveal a profound respect for the universe’s mysteries, a belief in rational laws, and a moral philosophy grounded in compassion and understanding, bridging science and spirituality.
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
This imaginary "spirit of..." that you've created has never existed and SHOULD NOT exist. There is a reason why the U.S. Supreme Court carved out time and place exceptions.
You cannot go up to people and make insulting or mocking comments. You cannot make racist or sexist comments in the workplace. You cannot make threats or incite violence. And these are all GOVERNMENT exceptions for "freedom of expression".
A private enterprise, like PCGS, can "punish" you for simply saying "Christmas" if they want. There is no "freedom of speech" or "freedom of expression" for private entities or individuals in the Constitution or anywhere else.
You simply do not understand the basics of "freedom of expression".
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Oh gawd, the horrors of it 😳 😭
We tried to warn him.
Very unfortunate but not unexpected.
Yea well he had had enough and once you've had enough it’s an easy trade.
They don't know it was attributed correctly, they don't think it was attributed correctly, they feeeeeeel it was attributed correctly. Telling.
This is correct insomuch that it always has been determined by whomever is deciding the rules. This obviously applies to PCGS. Using your example, if someone were to be banned for writing "Christmas" causing harm as to a religious belief may not hold up in certain Courts; although being banned for that example would a giant stretch for harm, getting terminated for same may not be.
The Congress, just like private entities, decide "carve outs". Look at the second amendment " A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed". Established law and precedent. In reality, it is littered with both Federal and State "carve outs". Not advocating one way or the other, just an example.
All of this, including the Bill of Rights and how private entities establish and interpret rules, will always be dependent on the people in charge of the power.
Boom...we win.
First, you have the fired up ones, the ones with spirit. Then you have the laws that define the boundaries that the spirited ones must recognize when interacting with others to avoid suffering consequences.
Have I said anything new?
Einstein’s view of God was non-traditional and pantheistic, focusing on the harmony, order, and intelligibility of the cosmos rather than a personal deity. His quotes reveal a profound respect for the universe’s mysteries, a belief in rational laws, and a moral philosophy grounded in compassion and understanding, bridging science and spirituality.
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
I was thinking more of a business instructing their employees to say Happy Holidays rather than Merry Christmas. However, point taken.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Employee permitted to say "Happy Christmas" or "Merry Holidays" is the compromise that wins the union's approval.
Einstein’s view of God was non-traditional and pantheistic, focusing on the harmony, order, and intelligibility of the cosmos rather than a personal deity. His quotes reveal a profound respect for the universe’s mysteries, a belief in rational laws, and a moral philosophy grounded in compassion and understanding, bridging science and spirituality.
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Oy Barberian.....
Proud follower of Christ! I love the USA! Land of the Bright and Beautiful! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
As distressing as this comment is I do wonder what it was before the edit.
When someone makes an outrageous post, it's always fun to use the quote feature to capture it so when they change or delete their post, there's still a record of their original post.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
(I dont see this thread being open come Monday 😟)