@Walkerguy21D said:
I thought shipments via the USPS insured for over $5k required it to be registered?
Or maybe the clerk at my PO was mistaken.
I also hope this gets resolved to the OPs satisfaction.
I’m sweating a missing $200 shipment, the first lost package I’ve had in many years and hundreds of shipments. Not a big deal I realize, but dealing with the USPS to track it, and then filing a claim, been very tedious.
If you have private insurance, you're not using postal insurance.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@TypeCollector87 said:
Thanks, all, for your concern and well wishes. The coin has been located. Unfortunately, I cannot share more details at this time.
Hopefully you can at a later time, i gotta hear this.
Often, plane tickets are more expensive. So, stating what you did could give readers the wrong impression.
Last August, I had made a $100K deal with a collector up in New Jersey. Fortunately, I have a TON of air miles with American Airlines so I cashed some in for a ticket, flew up in the morning, met the collector, and flew back later that afternoon.
You haven’t lived until you’ve shipped $300k of coins in a package with only $150k of insurance coverage or flown cross country with a $5M nickel in your pocket. Heh
But seriously- I had more of an issue with Brinks than I ever have had with overnight. They ‘lost’ the 1884&1885 trade dollars for a week one time
@TypeCollector87 said:
Thanks, all, for your concern and well wishes. The coin has been located. Unfortunately, I cannot share more details at this time.
@tradedollarnut said:
But seriously- I had more of an issue with Brinks than I ever have had with overnight. They ‘lost’ the 1884&1885 >trade dollars for a week one time
Wow, unreal....just curious...how expensive is it to ship something using Brinks ?
@oldglorycoins said:
Its called PCGS coin cert. If you have your phone on, and able to detect RFID chips then when you place it within a foot or two of the box, it brings up the coin that's in the holder. We ship coins in foil if they have RFID chips.
I didn’t realize that using foil would work as a countermeasure to this issue. Thank you for posting this!
I don't understand all the secrecy around this coin theft. Since the coin was "stolen" and is now recovered, can we assume the thief was identified and apprehended?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall said:
I don't understand all the secrecy around this coin theft. Since the coin was "stolen" and is now recovered, can we assume the thief was identified and apprehended?
Unless it hasent been released yet hut just the same like it was said 🙂
@tradedollarnut said:
But seriously- I had more of an issue with Brinks than I ever have had with overnight. They ‘lost’ the 1884&1885 >trade dollars for a week one time
Wow, unreal....just curious...how expensive is it to ship something using Brinks ?
@scotty1419 said:
EVERYONE LOOK OUT FOR THIS MASSIVE COIN THAT WENT MISSING.
OH NEVERMIND.
That was uncalled for. Under the circumstances described, it was perfectly reasonable to report the coin theft. And it was just as reasonable to provide the update that the coin had been located.
I’m certainly going to give @TypeCollector87 the benefit of the doubt that he has a very good reason for not providing further details at this time.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have heard of a multi hundred thousand dollar coin that was stolen from the mail. When it was recovered, the postal inspectors seized it as evidence in their prosecution for several years
@tradedollarnut said:
I have heard of a multi hundred thousand dollar coin that was stolen from the mail. When it was recovered, the postal inspectors seized it as evidence in their prosecution for several years
That's sort of what I was thinking... that piece is now evidence. I hope it ultimately works out for the OP and he gets his coin back.
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
@tradedollarnut said:
I have heard of a multi hundred thousand dollar coin that was stolen from the mail. When it was recovered, the postal inspectors seized it as evidence in their prosecution for several years
That's sort of what I was thinking... that piece is now evidence. I hope it ultimately works out for the OP and he gets his coin back.
Actually, it's likely the seller who hopefully gets his coin back, or maybe the insurance company who gets their coin back if they paid out on the claim.
If there is a court case then the buyer might have to wait a while to see if a deal is still on the table, assuming they are willing to wait.
It could be a real mess. Recovering the coin is good, but it's probably the start of a process rather than the end.
@tradedollarnut said:
Ah - but is it his coin? When does a transaction become official? It would seem to me upon delivery.
If it was paid for prior to being shipped, wouldn't it then be the buyer's coin?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I’m only curious if the coin was actually stolen, or misplaced during the shipping process. After all, it was less than 24 hours after initial post that “stolen” coin was found and thread title edited.
Stolen and Recovered ?
Or: Lost and Found ?
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
I’m only curious if the coin was actually stolen, or misplaced during the shipping process. After all, it was less than 24 hours after initial post that “stolen” coin was found and thread title edited.
Stolen and Recovered ?
Or: Lost and Found ?
There’s no need to be curious. The opening post said “… The package—both the outer and inner boxes—arrived sliced open and empty. It obviously had been tampered with before delivery. Authorities have been notified, and I understand that the seller is notifying NCIC.”
That doesn’t sound “misplaced” to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
I’m only curious if the coin was actually stolen, or misplaced during the shipping process. After all, it was less than 24 hours after initial post that “stolen” coin was found and thread title edited.
Stolen and Recovered ?
Or: Lost and Found ?
The OP edited his thread title and the word "stolen" appears twice in the thread title but without any details, only the OP knows what's actually going on.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@oldglorycoins said:
Its called PCGS coin cert. If you have your phone on, and able to detect RFID chips then when you place it within a foot or two of the box, it brings up the coin that's in the holder. We ship coins in foil if they have RFID chips.
I didn’t realize that using foil would work as a countermeasure to this issue. Thank you for posting this!
Yup, foil defeats RFID readers -- many dealers wrap my slabs in foil like the 1916 MS65 Walker I got from DLRC last week. Every little bit helps. Even my passport card is in a foil thing in my wallet (the govt sent it inside it), but good for credit cards, etc. as it keeps people from walking past and scanning your cards.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
I’m only curious if the coin was actually stolen, or misplaced during the shipping process. After all, it was less than 24 hours after initial post that “stolen” coin was found and thread title edited.
Stolen and Recovered ?
Or: Lost and Found ?
There’s no need to be curious. The opening post said “… The package—both the outer and inner boxes—arrived sliced open and empty. It obviously had been tampered with before delivery. Authorities have been notified, and I understand that the seller is notifying NCIC.”
That doesn’t sound “misplaced” to me.
Okay . Good police work for the investigative team who recovered (found) it, then. The FBI is involved in an in store theft from me. The perp has operated in 47 states and they still can’t find him. Need pictures ? The OP has a crack team.
@tradedollarnut said:
Ah - but is it his coin? When does a transaction become official? It would seem to me upon delivery.
If it was paid for prior to being shipped, wouldn't it then be the buyer's coin?
Could be, if the seller washed their hands of it. But if they refunded the buyer and/or if they were pursuing an insurance claim on coverage that they purchased, then I think it's still the seller's property. If the buyer has their own private shipping insurance that I would think it's his (or the insurance company's).
@tradedollarnut said:
I have heard of a multi hundred thousand dollar coin that was stolen from the mail. When it was recovered, the postal inspectors seized it as evidence in their prosecution for several years
That's sort of what I was thinking... that piece is now evidence. I hope it ultimately works out for the OP and he gets his coin back.
Actually, it's likely the seller who hopefully gets his coin back, or maybe the insurance company who gets their coin back if they paid out on the claim.
If there is a court case then the buyer might have to wait a while to see if a deal is still on the table, assuming they are willing to wait.
It could be a real mess. Recovering the coin is good, but it's probably the start of a process rather than the end.
I just hope someone gets it back and it doesn't end up just lost somewhere
@dcarr said:
We still don't know if the coin was actually "stolen".
Sometimes a package can be accidently ripped open by the sorting machinery.
Given the initial description, which has most unfortunately been deleted, there is no doubt this was a theft.
I can understand not telling us details of the recovery, but why remove the initial post??
@dcarr said:
We still don't know if the coin was actually "stolen".
Sometimes a package can be accidently ripped open by the sorting machinery.
Given the initial description, which has most unfortunately been deleted, there is no doubt this was a theft.
I can understand not telling us details of the recovery, but why remove the initial post??
I agree that the original title and post clearly indicated that it was theft (torn/cut box and suspicious delay in FL).
However, I guess we won't know for sure what happened unless it is eventually shared with us.
I fugure it's one of two things:
1) theft, with an arrest/recovery made, in which case it's all "alleged" until the person in the black robe swings the big wooden mallet.
2) accidental damage/loss and maybe the coin was found at the USPS processing center.
@tradedollarnut said:
You haven’t lived until you’ve shipped $300k of coins in a package with only $150k of insurance coverage or flown cross country with a $5M nickel in your pocket. Heh
I got to walk the 7 most valuable coins in the Smithsonian's collection in an unlocked box across the museum floor while it was open.
Okay, so there was a big guy with a gun walking next to me, but I digress.
@tradedollarnut said:
Ah - but is it his coin? When does a transaction become official? It would seem to me upon delivery.
In typical coin transactions, I would tend to believe that a lost shipment that's recovered before the buyer is refunded, then the transaction is valid and the coin should belong to the buyer. The way that a transaction with professional dealers may vary slightly depending on value, but as we know the seller is the one that is responsible until delivery and would be filing a claim if damaged or loss, and as such, should be refunding the buyer at some point after it's acknowledged that a loss occurred. My opinion is that the seller should be ready to reimburse the buyer after a month of searching/waiting from the expected delivery date, or sooner if both parties agree, but no longer than that unless both parties agree.
Once the deal is unwound financially, I would say that the buyer nor seller has no obligation to the transaction, though I would expect most dealers to complete the deal if the coin is recovered soon after recovery if that's what the buyer prefers, but it depends on each individual situation. If the insurance has settled`, then I believe they are the rightful owners if the coin is later found. I'm sure they would be happy to recover their cash in the case of a numismatic coin/s, but for bullion the verbiage of the policy legalese may give them the option. In any event, I fully expect insurance companies will prioritize their interests in the fine print.
In either case, I would expect the shipping carriers and authorities to be communicating or returning the coin to the shipper of the package once a lost claim on file, so they would be the ones taking delivery if there's a recovery like this one. I highly doubt any insurance settlements would be made inside of 30 days, but the entire process could take several months so the buyer shouldn't be forced to wait the entire time unless it's a large sum or it's it'd a reasonable, mutually agreed upon solution.
Disclaimer:All terms discussed here are based on my opinion of how thing's should work in this industry, but we all know that sometimes it gets a bit more complicated, and some are harder to work with than others.
@tradedollarnut said:
You haven’t lived until you’ve shipped $300k of coins in a package with only $150k of insurance coverage or flown cross country with a $5M nickel in your pocket. Heh
But seriously- I had more of an issue with Brinks than I ever have had with overnight. They ‘lost’ the 1884&1885 trade dollars for a week one time
Coincidentally, I know someone else who almost lost a coin with an armored truck service, something happened where the packaging was burned/melted somehow but luckily the coin was ok. With modern express shipping services and current vs prices for armored trucks, I'd probably be hand delivering if it's not sent Fedex overnight.
@Davidk7 said:
Registered mail is not always the answer to shipping expensive items. Especially considering the lengthy amount of time it takes, and stuff still gets stolen registered.
By the way, guide is $50k but this coin is likely not worth $50k considering the lack of a CAC sticker. However, even as a $35k-40k coin, that's something that we would send ONLY overnight all day. Why wasn't it sent overnight?
What an odd post?
I assume you have private insurance?
How is that odd? Every coin dealer has insurance, and sending a mid five figure coin overnight is the best option considering the theft occurrences that seem to plague lower shipping levels.
It's just odd because we don't know who the shipper was, whether they had private insurance, what the tens were, or even how it was shipped. The only thing we know is that it was NOT shipped registered.
We do know who the shipper was, it was an established retail dealer. Among the dealer network, what @Davidk7 claims is generally true for dealer to dealer business. If were talking a licensed, professional business shipping high value packages, it is incumbent to have private insurance and use overnight/express in addition to other practices including packaging, label discretion, and portable trackers. I recognize that registered seems to be popular among the more experienced generation and most would accommodate the buyer's preference if it was requested, but registered is simply too slow and complicated considering that USPS insurance is unlikely to be used.
We've seen several registered shipments be stolen in recent years, one dealer actually had two registered insurance claims within a span of several months. When you pay $8k+ per year for insurance coverage, waiting a month for delivery isn't very attractive these days for a marginal difference in frequency of loss.
@Davidk7 said:
Registered mail is not always the answer to shipping expensive items. Especially considering the lengthy amount of time it takes, and stuff still gets stolen registered.
By the way, guide is $50k but this coin is likely not worth $50k considering the lack of a CAC sticker. However, even as a $35k-40k coin, that's something that we would send ONLY overnight all day. Why wasn't it sent overnight?
What an odd post?
I assume you have private insurance?
How is that odd? Every coin dealer has insurance, and sending a mid five figure coin overnight is the best option considering the theft occurrences that seem to plague lower shipping levels.
It's just odd because we don't know who the shipper was, whether they had private insurance, what the tens were, or even how it was shipped. The only thing we know is that it was NOT shipped registered.
We do know who the shipper was, it was an established retail dealer. Among the dealer network, what @Davidk7 claims is generally true for dealer to dealer business. If were talking a licensed, professional business shipping high value packages, it is incumbent to have private insurance and use overnight/express in addition to other practices including packaging, label discretion, and portable trackers. I recognize that registered seems to be popular among the more experienced generation and most would accommodate the buyer's preference if it was requested, but registered is simply too slow and complicated considering that USPS insurance is unlikely to be used.
We've seen several registered shipments be stolen in recent years, one dealer actually had two registered insurance claims within a span of several months. When you pay $8k+ per year for insurance coverage, waiting a month for delivery isn't very attractive these days for a marginal difference in frequency of loss.
I was with you until this comment.
Registered mail doesn't usually take a month, and I don't believe that the difference in frequency of loss is "marginal".
For me, shipments by shippers like FedEx or UPS always make me nervous because of the fear of a package being delivered to the wrong house or being left on the doorstep regardless of any signature requirements. I have a PO box so any registered package is stored in the safe at the post office until I go there to pick it up.
@Davidk7 said:
Registered mail is not always the answer to shipping expensive items. Especially considering the lengthy amount of time it takes, and stuff still gets stolen registered.
By the way, guide is $50k but this coin is likely not worth $50k considering the lack of a CAC sticker. However, even as a $35k-40k coin, that's something that we would send ONLY overnight all day. Why wasn't it sent overnight?
What an odd post?
I assume you have private insurance?
How is that odd? Every coin dealer has insurance, and sending a mid five figure coin overnight is the best option considering the theft occurrences that seem to plague lower shipping levels.
It's just odd because we don't know who the shipper was, whether they had private insurance, what the tens were, or even how it was shipped. The only thing we know is that it was NOT shipped registered.
We do know who the shipper was, it was an established retail dealer. Among the dealer network, what @Davidk7 claims is generally true for dealer to dealer business. If were talking a licensed, professional business shipping high value packages, it is incumbent to have private insurance and use overnight/express in addition to other practices including packaging, label discretion, and portable trackers. I recognize that registered seems to be popular among the more experienced generation and most would accommodate the buyer's preference if it was requested, but registered is simply too slow and complicated considering that USPS insurance is unlikely to be used.
We've seen several registered shipments be stolen in recent years, one dealer actually had two registered insurance claims within a span of several months. When you pay $8k+ per year for insurance coverage, waiting a month for delivery isn't very attractive these days for a marginal difference in frequency of loss.
I was with you until this comment.
Registered mail doesn't usually take a month, and I don't believe that the difference in frequency of loss is "marginal".
For me, shipments by shippers like FedEx or UPS always make me nervous because of the fear of a package being delivered to the wrong house or being left on the doorstep regardless of any signature requirements. I have a PO box so any registered package is stored in the safe at the post office until I go there to pick it up.
You’re still with me, it wouldn’t be logical to fully aligned because that was a perspective strictly as a dealer. Often times, I’m not paid up front when doing dealer to dealer business, COD terms so I want the package delivered asap to keep liquidity rolling.
As far as my “marginal” descriptor, I’ll use this chart from ship and insure for some support, though it’s not necessarily a direct reflection of loss rates. That said, FedEx overnight has the same limit as registered at a cost of .18 vs .11, rather than priority mail or two day at .28.
I don’t know what the actual loss rates are but for the sake of argument let’s just say that equates to anything near a loss rate of .0011 vs .0018, whether or not it translates directly. When I factor in double/triple boxing, discreet label info, layered packaging and airtag trackers…along with the fact that my incoming packages get delivered on camera to my receptionist (shared, business suite complex) only during business hours on camera and always signature required, that makes it close enough for me to be marginal.
Like I said it’s only empirical data, but knowing a dealer with multiple registered claims in the past year, and (knock on wood) but I have not lost a package in my time as a dealer so far. I had seveeal close calls a few weeks ago, but one was USPS and the other was incoming UPS (wasn’t aware of this but never again), and just for reference I have 50 FedEx shipments (to & from combined) so far this year.
If you were to remove the needs of expediency and volume, then I as a collector would probably defer to registered more often. Keep in mind, bullion deals are almost prohibited at this point when it comes to wholesale shipments. A lot of dealers were receiving shipments of $110 dollar silver by the time the price had fallen to $75, so many make it clear that registered is unacceptable unless you’re willing to risk a market loss fee as a seller…(also unacceptable). But I do agree with you that driver carelessness is still my #1 concern vs registered, it’s just not an option for many cases, but I will use it on occasion . Unfortunately, south Florida also is notorious for slow mail and lately it takes me 2 weeks to get a first class letter from New Jersey, standard priority mail is now 3-5 business days when it used to be two. Not sure what registered time frames look like now, but 2-3 weeks was not uncommon before things slowed down in recent years.
@PerryHall said:
I don't understand all the secrecy around this coin theft. Since the coin was "stolen" and is now recovered, can we assume the thief was identified and apprehended?
That would explain the secrecy. On the other hand, it o> @PeakRarities said:
That would suggest Registeredv remains the safest, your other concerns excepted. It also suggests that you should never use FedEx Freight. Lol. They must lose around 1% of packages.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@PerryHall said:
I don't understand all the secrecy around this coin theft. Since the coin was "stolen" and is now recovered, can we assume the thief was identified and apprehended?
That would explain the secrecy. On the other hand, it o> @PeakRarities said:
That would suggest Registeredv regains the safest, your other concerns excepted. It also suggest that you should never use FedEx Freight. Lol. They must lose around 1% of packages.
Now hold on just a second there J-roc, I know that you know “what for the sake of argument” means…🧐
Yes, anecdotal evidence isn’t helpful for generalizations, but I think you understood the greater point. Just in case, I’ll summarize and re phrase- After taking into consideration that my Heavily taped, double boxed, triple packed , padded, wrapped & possibly tracked Express Overnight box has about 16 hours to be delivered in California from South Florida, guaranteed by Fedex with a full refund, I don't find that the difference in security outweighs the drawbacks of using Registered mail. Especially considering both the coverage & cost of the insurance is identical in my situation.
Perhaps I'm too cynical, but with my observations during my time in business I have full faith that Fedex would have their drivers run a kayak through a hurricane to prevent them from having to refund nearly $100 service charge for being late. That doesn't include the added $100 of default insurance, so Fedex has $200 of their own money on the line. You can't expect me to bet on black when the house has their own money on red, do you?
@PerryHall said:
I don't understand all the secrecy around this coin theft. Since the coin was "stolen" and is now recovered, can we assume the thief was identified and apprehended?
That would explain the secrecy. On the other hand, it o> @PeakRarities said:
That would suggest Registeredv regains the safest, your other concerns excepted. It also suggest that you should never use FedEx Freight. Lol. They must lose around 1% of packages.
Now hold on just a second there J-roc, I know that you know “what for the sake of argument” means…🧐
Yes, anecdotal evidence isn’t helpful for generalizations, but I think you understood the greater point. Just in case, I’ll summarize and re phrase- After taking into consideration that my Heavily taped, double boxed, triple packed , padded, wrapped & possibly tracked Express Overnight box has about 16 hours to be delivered in California from South Florida, guaranteed by Fedex with a full refund, I don't find that the difference in security outweighs the drawbacks of using Registered mail. Especially considering both the coverage & cost of the insurance is identical in my situation.
Perhaps I'm too cynical, but with my observations during my time in business I have full faith that Fedex would have their drivers run a kayak through a hurricane to prevent them from having to refund nearly $100 service charge for being late. That doesn't include the added $100 of default insurance, so Fedex has $200 of their own money on the line. You can't expect me to bet on black when the house has their own money on red, do you?
I wasn't arguing with you about the other issues. I just thought the indemnity insurance tells an interesting story.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@PerryHall said:
I don't understand all the secrecy around this coin theft. Since the coin was "stolen" and is now recovered, can we assume the thief was identified and apprehended?
That would explain the secrecy. On the other hand, it o> @PeakRarities said:
That would suggest Registeredv regains the safest, your other concerns excepted. It also suggest that you should never use FedEx Freight. Lol. They must lose around 1% of packages.
Now hold on just a second there J-roc, I know that you know “what for the sake of argument” means…🧐
Yes, anecdotal evidence isn’t helpful for generalizations, but I think you understood the greater point. Just in case, I’ll summarize and re phrase- After taking into consideration that my Heavily taped, double boxed, triple packed , padded, wrapped & possibly tracked Express Overnight box has about 16 hours to be delivered in California from South Florida, guaranteed by Fedex with a full refund, I don't find that the difference in security outweighs the drawbacks of using Registered mail. Especially considering both the coverage & cost of the insurance is identical in my situation.
Perhaps I'm too cynical, but with my observations during my time in business I have full faith that Fedex would have their drivers run a kayak through a hurricane to prevent them from having to refund nearly $100 service charge for being late. That doesn't include the added $100 of default insurance, so Fedex has $200 of their own money on the line. You can't expect me to bet on black when the house has their own money on red, do you?
I wasn't arguing with you about the other issues. I just thought the indemnity insurance tells an interesting story.
I agree, I never was able to find published metrics of loss rates between the carriers, so I figured this is about as close as we'll get. It definitely confirmed my bias against UPS, but yea, the freight rate is brutal.
Maybe the package was just temporarily unaccounted for and finally showed up late. That means is showed as "delivered" on line when it wasn't, then it showed up later or it was just late getting to the buyer.
Perhaps no notice was left because the buyer was not home and the carrier took it back to the PO and forgot to put it in the right place?
@Coin Finder said:
Maybe the package was just temporarily unaccounted for and finally showed up late. That means is showed as "delivered" on line when it wasn't, then it showed up later or it was just late getting to the buyer.
Perhaps no notice was left because the buyer was not home and the carrier took it back to the PO and forgot to put it in the right place?
Are these possible scenarios?
I'm glad it turned out ok. Nice coin!
Based on the opening post (before it was later edited) those aren’t possible scenarios. It originally said in part:
“The package—both the outer and inner boxes—arrived sliced open and empty. It obviously had been tampered with before delivery. Authorities have been notified, and I understand that the seller is notifying NCIC.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Comments
Through the USPS, yes. Third party insurers usually have different requirements.
Thanks Typecollector for sharing this sad news.
Tennessee is also a known USPS hub for shenanigans.
Aside from wrapping a slab in foil, I would throw in some old D or C cell batteries or a pet rock in order to give false weight.
I hope the seller/sender makes you whole.
If you have private insurance, you're not using postal insurance.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Thanks, all, for your concern and well wishes. The coin has been located. Unfortunately, I cannot share more details at this time.
Sorry to hear about this. Looks like a very nice coin. It should have been sent registered mail.
The coin has been located
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Hopefully you can at a later time, i gotta hear this.
Often, plane tickets are more expensive. So, stating what you did could give readers the wrong impression.
Last August, I had made a $100K deal with a collector up in New Jersey. Fortunately, I have a TON of air miles with American Airlines so I cashed some in for a ticket, flew up in the morning, met the collector, and flew back later that afternoon.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
You haven’t lived until you’ve shipped $300k of coins in a package with only $150k of insurance coverage or flown cross country with a $5M nickel in your pocket. Heh
But seriously- I had more of an issue with Brinks than I ever have had with overnight. They ‘lost’ the 1884&1885 trade dollars for a week one time
I'm glad your coin was located.
Very happy that the coin was located so quickly.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Glad it's been found. Hopefully you get it back soon and the thief who cut open your package loses a finger or two.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I’ll guess no sticker at CAC. Not unless it’s hand carried.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Glad you found it. It would be nice to hear more details, when you’re ready.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Wow, unreal....just curious...how expensive is it to ship something using Brinks ?
I didn’t realize that using foil would work as a countermeasure to this issue. Thank you for posting this!
I don't understand all the secrecy around this coin theft. Since the coin was "stolen" and is now recovered, can we assume the thief was identified and apprehended?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Unless it hasent been released yet hut just the same like it was said 🙂
EVERYONE LOOK OUT FOR THIS MASSIVE COIN THAT WENT MISSING.
OH NEVERMIND.
Back then it was several thousand dollars
That was uncalled for. Under the circumstances described, it was perfectly reasonable to report the coin theft. And it was just as reasonable to provide the update that the coin had been located.
I’m certainly going to give @TypeCollector87 the benefit of the doubt that he has a very good reason for not providing further details at this time.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have heard of a multi hundred thousand dollar coin that was stolen from the mail. When it was recovered, the postal inspectors seized it as evidence in their prosecution for several years
That's sort of what I was thinking... that piece is now evidence. I hope it ultimately works out for the OP and he gets his coin back.
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Ah - but is it his coin? When does a transaction become official? It would seem to me upon delivery.
Actually, it's likely the seller who hopefully gets his coin back, or maybe the insurance company who gets their coin back if they paid out on the claim.
If there is a court case then the buyer might have to wait a while to see if a deal is still on the table, assuming they are willing to wait.
It could be a real mess. Recovering the coin is good, but it's probably the start of a process rather than the end.
If it was paid for prior to being shipped, wouldn't it then be the buyer's coin?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I’m only curious if the coin was actually stolen, or misplaced during the shipping process. After all, it was less than 24 hours after initial post that “stolen” coin was found and thread title edited.
Stolen and Recovered ?
Or: Lost and Found ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
There’s no need to be curious. The opening post said “… The package—both the outer and inner boxes—arrived sliced open and empty. It obviously had been tampered with before delivery. Authorities have been notified, and I understand that the seller is notifying NCIC.”
That doesn’t sound “misplaced” to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The OP edited his thread title and the word "stolen" appears twice in the thread title but without any details, only the OP knows what's actually going on.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
We still don't know if the coin was actually "stolen".
Sometimes a package can be accidently ripped open by the sorting machinery.
Yup, foil defeats RFID readers -- many dealers wrap my slabs in foil like the 1916 MS65 Walker I got from DLRC last week. Every little bit helps. Even my passport card is in a foil thing in my wallet (the govt sent it inside it), but good for credit cards, etc. as it keeps people from walking past and scanning your cards.
Okay . Good police work for the investigative team who recovered (found) it, then. The FBI is involved in an in store theft from me. The perp has operated in 47 states and they still can’t find him. Need pictures ? The OP has a crack team.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Could be, if the seller washed their hands of it. But if they refunded the buyer and/or if they were pursuing an insurance claim on coverage that they purchased, then I think it's still the seller's property. If the buyer has their own private shipping insurance that I would think it's his (or the insurance company's).
I just hope someone gets it back and it doesn't end up just lost somewhere
Given the initial description, which has most unfortunately been deleted, there is no doubt this was a theft.
I can understand not telling us details of the recovery, but why remove the initial post??
Collector, occasional seller
I agree that the original title and post clearly indicated that it was theft (torn/cut box and suspicious delay in FL).
However, I guess we won't know for sure what happened unless it is eventually shared with us.
I fugure it's one of two things:
1) theft, with an arrest/recovery made, in which case it's all "alleged" until the person in the black robe swings the big wooden mallet.
2) accidental damage/loss and maybe the coin was found at the USPS processing center.
I got to walk the 7 most valuable coins in the Smithsonian's collection in an unlocked box across the museum floor while it was open.
Okay, so there was a big guy with a gun walking next to me, but I digress.
Depends on the transaction. FOB Destination or FOB Origin. Refer to the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC).
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maint. Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
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In typical coin transactions, I would tend to believe that a lost shipment that's recovered before the buyer is refunded, then the transaction is valid and the coin should belong to the buyer. The way that a transaction with professional dealers may vary slightly depending on value, but as we know the seller is the one that is responsible until delivery and would be filing a claim if damaged or loss, and as such, should be refunding the buyer at some point after it's acknowledged that a loss occurred. My opinion is that the seller should be ready to reimburse the buyer after a month of searching/waiting from the expected delivery date, or sooner if both parties agree, but no longer than that unless both parties agree.
Once the deal is unwound financially, I would say that the buyer nor seller has no obligation to the transaction, though I would expect most dealers to complete the deal if the coin is recovered soon after recovery if that's what the buyer prefers, but it depends on each individual situation. If the insurance has settled`, then I believe they are the rightful owners if the coin is later found. I'm sure they would be happy to recover their cash in the case of a numismatic coin/s, but for bullion the verbiage of the policy legalese may give them the option. In any event, I fully expect insurance companies will prioritize their interests in the fine print.
In either case, I would expect the shipping carriers and authorities to be communicating or returning the coin to the shipper of the package once a lost claim on file, so they would be the ones taking delivery if there's a recovery like this one. I highly doubt any insurance settlements would be made inside of 30 days, but the entire process could take several months so the buyer shouldn't be forced to wait the entire time unless it's a large sum or it's it'd a reasonable, mutually agreed upon solution.
Disclaimer: All terms discussed here are based on my opinion of how thing's should work in this industry, but we all know that sometimes it gets a bit more complicated, and some are harder to work with than others.
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Coincidentally, I know someone else who almost lost a coin with an armored truck service, something happened where the packaging was burned/melted somehow but luckily the coin was ok. With modern express shipping services and current vs prices for armored trucks, I'd probably be hand delivering if it's not sent Fedex overnight.
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We do know who the shipper was, it was an established retail dealer. Among the dealer network, what @Davidk7 claims is generally true for dealer to dealer business. If were talking a licensed, professional business shipping high value packages, it is incumbent to have private insurance and use overnight/express in addition to other practices including packaging, label discretion, and portable trackers. I recognize that registered seems to be popular among the more experienced generation and most would accommodate the buyer's preference if it was requested, but registered is simply too slow and complicated considering that USPS insurance is unlikely to be used.
We've seen several registered shipments be stolen in recent years, one dealer actually had two registered insurance claims within a span of several months. When you pay $8k+ per year for insurance coverage, waiting a month for delivery isn't very attractive these days for a marginal difference in frequency of loss.
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I was with you until this comment.
Registered mail doesn't usually take a month, and I don't believe that the difference in frequency of loss is "marginal".
For me, shipments by shippers like FedEx or UPS always make me nervous because of the fear of a package being delivered to the wrong house or being left on the doorstep regardless of any signature requirements. I have a PO box so any registered package is stored in the safe at the post office until I go there to pick it up.
You’re still with me, it wouldn’t be logical to fully aligned because that was a perspective strictly as a dealer. Often times, I’m not paid up front when doing dealer to dealer business, COD terms so I want the package delivered asap to keep liquidity rolling.
As far as my “marginal” descriptor, I’ll use this chart from ship and insure for some support, though it’s not necessarily a direct reflection of loss rates. That said, FedEx overnight has the same limit as registered at a cost of .18 vs .11, rather than priority mail or two day at .28.
I don’t know what the actual loss rates are but for the sake of argument let’s just say that equates to anything near a loss rate of .0011 vs .0018, whether or not it translates directly. When I factor in double/triple boxing, discreet label info, layered packaging and airtag trackers…along with the fact that my incoming packages get delivered on camera to my receptionist (shared, business suite complex) only during business hours on camera and always signature required, that makes it close enough for me to be marginal.
Like I said it’s only empirical data, but knowing a dealer with multiple registered claims in the past year, and (knock on wood) but I have not lost a package in my time as a dealer so far. I had seveeal close calls a few weeks ago, but one was USPS and the other was incoming UPS (wasn’t aware of this but never again), and just for reference I have 50 FedEx shipments (to & from combined) so far this year.
If you were to remove the needs of expediency and volume, then I as a collector would probably defer to registered more often. Keep in mind, bullion deals are almost prohibited at this point when it comes to wholesale shipments. A lot of dealers were receiving shipments of $110 dollar silver by the time the price had fallen to $75, so many make it clear that registered is unacceptable unless you’re willing to risk a market loss fee as a seller…(also unacceptable). But I do agree with you that driver carelessness is still my #1 concern vs registered, it’s just not an option for many cases, but I will use it on occasion . Unfortunately, south Florida also is notorious for slow mail and lately it takes me 2 weeks to get a first class letter from New Jersey, standard priority mail is now 3-5 business days when it used to be two. Not sure what registered time frames look like now, but 2-3 weeks was not uncommon before things slowed down in recent years.
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That would explain the secrecy. On the other hand, it o> @PeakRarities said:
That would suggest Registeredv remains the safest, your other concerns excepted. It also suggests that you should never use FedEx Freight. Lol. They must lose around 1% of packages.
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Now hold on just a second there J-roc, I know that you know “what for the sake of argument” means…🧐
Yes, anecdotal evidence isn’t helpful for generalizations, but I think you understood the greater point. Just in case, I’ll summarize and re phrase- After taking into consideration that my Heavily taped, double boxed, triple packed , padded, wrapped & possibly tracked Express Overnight box has about 16 hours to be delivered in California from South Florida, guaranteed by Fedex with a full refund, I don't find that the difference in security outweighs the drawbacks of using Registered mail. Especially considering both the coverage & cost of the insurance is identical in my situation.
Perhaps I'm too cynical, but with my observations during my time in business I have full faith that Fedex would have their drivers run a kayak through a hurricane to prevent them from having to refund nearly $100 service charge for being late. That doesn't include the added $100 of default insurance, so Fedex has $200 of their own money on the line. You can't expect me to bet on black when the house has their own money on red, do you?
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I wasn't arguing with you about the other issues. I just thought the indemnity insurance tells an interesting story.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I agree, I never was able to find published metrics of loss rates between the carriers, so I figured this is about as close as we'll get. It definitely confirmed my bias against UPS, but yea, the freight rate is brutal.
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Maybe the package was just temporarily unaccounted for and finally showed up late. That means is showed as "delivered" on line when it wasn't, then it showed up later or it was just late getting to the buyer.
Perhaps no notice was left because the buyer was not home and the carrier took it back to the PO and forgot to put it in the right place?
Are these possible scenarios?
I'm glad it turned out ok. Nice coin!
Based on the opening post (before it was later edited) those aren’t possible scenarios. It originally said in part:
“The package—both the outer and inner boxes—arrived sliced open and empty. It obviously had been tampered with before delivery. Authorities have been notified, and I understand that the seller is notifying NCIC.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.