I also checked the site below just to make sure it was not a worn down altered Galley Mint Museum issue, which would have had the right amount of silver and dimensions. (Back in the 1990's there was an article in one of the two weekly coin papers about a possible newly discovered variety of a 1793 cent which turned to be a worn down GMM.)
It isn't a GMM issue and they did not use the un-centered bust on their 1796 dollar copies.
@Nephilim said:
As a counterfeit in a PCGS slab I'd think it still has value close to the asking price?
It's value would be as much as PCGS' guarantee of authenticity will allow it. My opinion is that the asking price is a bit optimistic. Note that PCGS does not even show a $ amount of value for this piece on it's verification page.
"Great spirits have always been met with violent opposition by mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
Not saying I knew this to be a counterfeit, but I feel 100% that it was not a 1795 regardless of attributes with the visibility of the 6, definitely not a 5, in my opinion. So after the astute comparison's offered, I did feel a counterfeit was the only possibility, but I have not seen a counterfeit with this much wear. Great post, Mark. Had you indicated the counterfeit possibility in your opening post, we would not have enjoyed the education.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Obvious and very well-known fake off-center 1796 bust dollar. Someone apparently took the creative step to wear one down to try to pass it, thinking the obvious off-centered bust would be missed, with level of detail being the focus.
We just showed this piece to Don Bonser who has previously worked with PCGS as a grader and authenticator. He closely examined the coin and said it is 100% genuine.
I trust Don Bonser's opinion, as he is a extremely knowledgeable on Grading and Authenticating. After reading this thread multiple times though, and studying the pics thoroughly. I believe that the coin is real and authentic, and that our hosts have made the correct decision deeming it to be genuine. I have a hard time believing that forum members are experts on a coin that most of them have never even owned. On the other hand, I have collected, and dealt with numerus examples of bust dollars and am not just making baseless conclusions on a topic that I know nothing about. Thanks @InGodWeTrustCoins for taking the precautions and ensuring that this coin is genuine.
@InGodWeTrustCoins said:
We just showed this piece to Don Bonser who has previously worked with PCGS as a grader and authenticator. He closely examined the coin and said it is 100% genuine.
Unfortunately Don Bonser is incorrect.
In debate, this is called an "appeal to authority".
You ask a subject expert for their opinion.
It is a relatively weak type of evidence, but sometimes for subjective matters it is all that is available.
It is a type of logical fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
Here in this thread, we have much stronger evidence, based on the photos, known die pairs,
and known counterfeits.
I expect if Don Bonser viewed the evidence in this thread, he would say it is not genuine.
He is free to post on this thread and address the arguments presented here.
@InGodWeTrustCoins said:
We just showed this piece to Don Bonser who has previously worked with PCGS as a grader and authenticator. He closely examined the coin and said it is 100% genuine.
Unfortunately Don Bonser is incorrect.
In debate, this is called an "appeal to authority".
You ask a subject expert for their opinion.
It is a relatively weak type of evidence, but sometimes for subjective matters it is all that is available.
Here in this thread, we have much stronger evidence, based on the photos, known die pairs,
and known counterfeits.
I expect if Don Bonser viewed the evidence in this thread, he would say it is not genuine.
He is free to post on this thread and address the arguments presented here.
Are you a PCGS Grader/Authenticator? What credentials do you have to back up you thoughts? How many bust dollars do you own?
@InGodWeTrustCoins said:
We just showed this piece to Don Bonser who has previously worked with PCGS as a grader and authenticator. He closely examined the coin and said it is 100% genuine.
Unfortunately Don Bonser is incorrect.
In debate, this is called an "appeal to authority".
You ask a subject expert for their opinion.
It is a relatively weak type of evidence, but sometimes for subjective matters it is all that is available.
Here in this thread, we have much stronger evidence, based on the photos, known die pairs,
and known counterfeits.
I expect if Don Bonser viewed the evidence in this thread, he would say it is not genuine.
He is free to post on this thread and address the arguments presented here.
Are you a PCGS Grader/Authenticator? What credentials do you have to back up you thoughts? How many bust dollars do you own?
Irrelevant, because you are also engaging in "appeal to authority" (my authority in this case).
If you believe this coin is genuine,
please address the evidence presented in the thread.
Particularly that this obverse die was only used for coins dated 1795, but shows 1796 on this coin.
@oldglorycoins said:
A True "Expert" wouldn't need a anything except his knowledge and the coin in hand
Please invite Don to read the evidence (of the coin being counterfeit) presented in this thread. He’s extremely knowledgeable and I believe he will be persuaded if he reads it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@InGodWeTrustCoins said:
We just showed this piece to Don Bonser who has previously worked with PCGS as a grader and authenticator. He closely examined the coin and said it is 100% genuine.
Unfortunately Don Bonser is incorrect.
In debate, this is called an "appeal to authority".
You ask a subject expert for their opinion.
It is a relatively weak type of evidence, but sometimes for subjective matters it is all that is available.
Here in this thread, we have much stronger evidence, based on the photos, known die pairs,
and known counterfeits.
I expect if Don Bonser viewed the evidence in this thread, he would say it is not genuine.
He is free to post on this thread and address the arguments presented here.
Are you a PCGS Grader/Authenticator? What credentials do you have to back up you thoughts? How many bust dollars do you own?
Just so that you are aware...many members on here are as knowledgeable or more knowledgeable than PCGS graders, particularly in narrow fields.
Many members on here have been graders and authenticators for the big TPGs.
Additionally, many members here have seen several (or more) inauthentic coins holdered by our our hosts.
I can happily provide examples of each of those points but do not want to derail this thread. This forum is particularly knowledgeable and that knowledge should be challenged with caution.
You are young and don't know what you don't know. I like @InGodWeTrustCoins a lot and buy coins from them regularly. As fellow Arizonans, I'm sure you do as well.
However, you're out of your depth at this point. Would recommend you not make assumptions and just wait to hear more info.
@InGodWeTrustCoins said:
We just showed this piece to Don Bonser who has previously worked with PCGS as a grader and authenticator. He closely examined the coin and said it is 100% genuine.
I directed the following (which was meant for you) to the wrong person a short while ago :
Please invite Don to read the evidence (of the coin being counterfeit) presented in this thread. He’s extremely knowledgeable and I believe he will be persuaded if he reads it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@InGodWeTrustCoins said:
We now have spoken to another PCGS grader at the ANA show that says it is a transfer counterfeit. Either way, the coin is absolutely not for sale.
Thank you for your efforts and updates!
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@InGodWeTrustCoins said:
We just showed this piece to Don Bonser who has previously worked with PCGS as a grader and authenticator. He
Are you a PCGS Grader/Authenticator? What credentials do you have to back up you thoughts? How many bust dollars do you own?
Just so that you are aware...many members on here are as knowledgeable or more knowledgeable than PCGS graders, particularly in narrow fields.
Many members on here have been graders and authenticators for the big TPGs.
Additionally, many members here have seen several (or more) inauthentic coins holdered by our our hosts.
I can happily provide examples of each of those points but do not want to derail this thread. This forum is particularly knowledgeable and that knowledge should be challenged with caution.
Case in point. PCGS deemed this Bust Half as authentic (albeit, genuine only with details grade):
My grading service would dispense with all the words in describing a coin in condition below AG3. Just call such a coin as the Bust half dollar seen above as "slick":
mr1931s Genuine-Slick
"Great spirits have always been met with violent opposition by mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
Comments
WOW, just saw this thread; thank you @yosclimber ! Interesting timing...
I also checked the site below just to make sure it was not a worn down altered Galley Mint Museum issue, which would have had the right amount of silver and dimensions. (Back in the 1990's there was an article in one of the two weekly coin papers about a possible newly discovered variety of a 1793 cent which turned to be a worn down GMM.)
It isn't a GMM issue and they did not use the un-centered bust on their 1796 dollar copies.
https://gmm.cdbpdx.com/COL96100/
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
It's value would be as much as PCGS' guarantee of authenticity will allow it. My opinion is that the asking price is a bit optimistic. Note that PCGS does not even show a $ amount of value for this piece on it's verification page.
"Great spirits have always been met with violent opposition by mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
Not saying I knew this to be a counterfeit, but I feel 100% that it was not a 1795 regardless of attributes with the visibility of the 6, definitely not a 5, in my opinion. So after the astute comparison's offered, I did feel a counterfeit was the only possibility, but I have not seen a counterfeit with this much wear. Great post, Mark. Had you indicated the counterfeit possibility in your opening post, we would not have enjoyed the education.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Obvious and very well-known fake off-center 1796 bust dollar. Someone apparently took the creative step to wear one down to try to pass it, thinking the obvious off-centered bust would be missed, with level of detail being the focus.
So she was hard pressed 😚
We just showed this piece to Don Bonser who has previously worked with PCGS as a grader and authenticator. He closely examined the coin and said it is 100% genuine.
InGodWeTrustCoinsandCurrency.com
I trust Don Bonser's opinion, as he is a extremely knowledgeable on Grading and Authenticating. After reading this thread multiple times though, and studying the pics thoroughly. I believe that the coin is real and authentic, and that our hosts have made the correct decision deeming it to be genuine. I have a hard time believing that forum members are experts on a coin that most of them have never even owned. On the other hand, I have collected, and dealt with numerus examples of bust dollars and am not just making baseless conclusions on a topic that I know nothing about. Thanks @InGodWeTrustCoins for taking the precautions and ensuring that this coin is genuine.
Unfortunately Don Bonser is incorrect.
In debate, this is called an "appeal to authority".
You ask a subject expert for their opinion.
It is a relatively weak type of evidence, but sometimes for subjective matters it is all that is available.
It is a type of logical fallacy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
Here in this thread, we have much stronger evidence, based on the photos, known die pairs,
and known counterfeits.
I expect if Don Bonser viewed the evidence in this thread, he would say it is not genuine.
He is free to post on this thread and address the arguments presented here.
Are you a PCGS Grader/Authenticator? What credentials do you have to back up you thoughts? How many bust dollars do you own?
A True "Expert" wouldn't need a anything except his knowledge and the coin in hand
Irrelevant, because you are also engaging in "appeal to authority" (my authority in this case).
If you believe this coin is genuine,
please address the evidence presented in the thread.
Particularly that this obverse die was only used for coins dated 1795, but shows 1796 on this coin.
Please invite Don to read the evidence (of the coin being counterfeit) presented in this thread. He’s extremely knowledgeable and I believe he will be persuaded if he reads it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Just so that you are aware...many members on here are as knowledgeable or more knowledgeable than PCGS graders, particularly in narrow fields.
Many members on here have been graders and authenticators for the big TPGs.
Additionally, many members here have seen several (or more) inauthentic coins holdered by our our hosts.
I can happily provide examples of each of those points but do not want to derail this thread. This forum is particularly knowledgeable and that knowledge should be challenged with caution.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
I'm sure @InGodWeTrustCoins would have given him background when asking him about it
You are young and don't know what you don't know. I like @InGodWeTrustCoins a lot and buy coins from them regularly. As fellow Arizonans, I'm sure you do as well.
However, you're out of your depth at this point. Would recommend you not make assumptions and just wait to hear more info.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
I directed the following (which was meant for you) to the wrong person a short while ago :
Please invite Don to read the evidence (of the coin being counterfeit) presented in this thread. He’s extremely knowledgeable and I believe he will be persuaded if he reads it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
We now have spoken to another PCGS grader at the ANA show that says it is a transfer counterfeit. Either way, the coin is absolutely not for sale.
InGodWeTrustCoinsandCurrency.com
Thank you for your efforts and updates!
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Case in point. PCGS deemed this Bust Half as authentic (albeit, genuine only with details grade):
In reality, it is a well-known counterfeit.
My grading service would dispense with all the words in describing a coin in condition below AG3. Just call such a coin as the Bust half dollar seen above as "slick":
mr1931s Genuine-Slick
"Great spirits have always been met with violent opposition by mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
This has been a very enlightening thread. I thank everyone for their due diligence.