Question for Kennedy Collectors: No FGs

Endocrinologist · October 27, 2002 1:20PM

I'm trying to find out information about the no FGs Kennedies. What years, mintmarks are affected? 1982-P and 1983-P? What is the approximate rarity of this variety? Finally, what constitutes no FG? A faded FG suffice?

Thanks in advance

Endo

Russ · October 27, 2002 1:26PM

Besides 1982, there is also the 1966 SMS coins. They are fairly rare, but the pop has been growing quite a bit as the variety has been discovered by the collecting community. Not many services will note the variety, though.

Tim (Osiris) could tell you a lot more about them. He has a bunch and has been snapping them up for quite a while.

Russ, NCNE

misterR · October 27, 2002 1:59PM

In my opinion, the only true no FG Kennedys are the 66 SMS and the 82-P. Both of these were caused by an overzealous mint worker cleaning up working dies. There are other no FGs but they are caused by grease filled dies, etc. Both the 66 SMS and the 82-P have an early stage where only the F was removed. The weak no FG varieties that you mentioned are obviously caused by grease and other debris clogging the dies. The 66 SMS no FG is by far the rarer of the two bringing $200+ in nice condition, while the 82-P no FG only sells for $60 in PCGS 66.

Gilbert · October 27, 2002 10:38PM

Mister R

Can you equate "nice condition" to a numismatic grade, please?

misterR · October 28, 2002 1:58AM

Gilbert-did a little research using Teletrades' Price Guide(by the way, ANACS designates the 66 SMS no FG as either Breen 5278 or FS 13.9). An ANACS 65 Breen 5278 sold for $85 and an ANACS 66 FS 13.9 sold for $400. I feel that a "nice" grade for a 66 SMS Kennedy is in the MS 65 to MS 67 range. Hope I've helped.

cladking · October 28, 2002 2:55AM

The '66 noFG has a diagnostic on the obverse. There is excessive polishing
on the bridge of the nose and this area will appear flat. I'd guess around
one coin in 500.

Endocrinologist · October 28, 2002 12:44PM

I found the following article by Scott Travers on the PCGS website.

<< <i>The 1972-D Kennedy half dollar without the designer's initials.
Frank Gasparro, former chief sculptor-engraver of the United States Mint, designed the reverse of the Kennedy half dollar, which features the presidential coat of arms. And, as is customary, he was permitted to place his initials on the coin as a form of "signature." The letters "FG" can be found just to the right of the eagle's tail. Occasionally, however, overzealous die polishing led to the production of Kennedy halves without these distinctive initials. One such instance took place at the Denver Mint in 1972.

Some of the issues with missing initials are relatively common, but the 1972-D is fairly scarce--and, as a consequence, it brings a higher premium. Here again, a 5- power magnifying glass will enable you to identify the error quickly and easily. Other Kennedy halves known to have been struck without the "FG" include the 1966, the 1973 and the 1982.

Incidentally, Frank Gasparro's initials also appear on the reverse of the Lincoln Memorial cent, another of his creations--and also FAIL to appear on some of those because of similar die-polishing errors. It almost makes you wonder whether someone at the Mint had it in for him!
>>

osirisMMII · October 28, 2002 3:18PM

The '82-P can be found as 1) missing the "F" 2) FG partially abraded and 3) FG abraded away designated as Breen 5323. The book The Kennedy Half Dollar Book An attribution and Pricing Guide by James Wiles, Ph.D. lists the Breen 5323 as a URS 8 (65 - 125 known) which is actually less than the number of certified coins available.

The 1966 SMS No FG is one of my favorite Kennedys! It is also one of my PCGS pet peeves as they refuse to recognize and attribute this major mint screw-up!!! Anacs recognizes the coin by the Breen # while NGC recognizes this rarity as FS-013.9. Online NGC pop report shows a total of 35 graded - with the highest grade MS66! There are no CAM/DCAM No FG coins due to the fact that the die for this coin was extremely worn (and as misterR stated, overpolished which is what caused the missing initials). These coins were all minted from a single pair of dies although there was at least one other pair which created "no F" coins - this has been determined by different markers on the obverse. These coins are extremely brilliant with great mirrors but lack detail - lower feathers on eagle flow into one another with little separation, almost smooth shield, little definition of the feathers on right wing, in fact the entire eagle looks almost like it melts into the fields!

On the obverse Kennedy, like the eagle, lacks a lot of detail normally seen on SMS coins. Dr Wiles lists the No FG as a URS 7, 33-64 known. This is a really cool coin to own in the days when mass-produced coins are nearly perfect - what amazes me is not that someone screwed up in their polish job and tried to squeeze a few more coins out to meet a quota but the fact they these actually left the mint! An obvious example of the mints feelings towards coin collectors during this "national crisis" of a coin shortage.

Russ · October 29, 2002 8:24AM

There's a 1966 SMS coming up on Teletrade soon.

Russ, NCNE

Rampage · November 2, 2002 8:44AM

This deserved a bump, too.....

Russ · November 14, 2002 8:23AM

Bump for those interested in this variety. The Teletrade coin that I linked was bid to $400 and didn't sell.

Russ, NCNE

RJB · November 14, 2002 9:40AM

As far as the 1966 SMS no FG the attribution given by CONECA is DDO-002, ADR-001, DMR-4. So not only do you get the abraided die reverse, but a nice obverse doubled die as well. There actually 5 stages given to the state of the dies. Stages A and B have minimal premium. Stage C shows the lower portion of the F abraided away. Stage D shows the F very faint to gone and Stage E has the FG entirely gone as well as the bridge of the nose and eye abraded away. This and the 1982 no FG variety are the only 2 no FGs that are recognized as true varieties of this type in the Kennedy series by CONECA. BOB

joejoe2001 · November 14, 2002 9:53AM

In the back of coinworkld last year one dealer sold several no fg Kennedy dates.

keets · February 6, 2003 2:32PM

hey guys

take a look at this 1966 SMS i won and tell me what you think. i figuring i got something special.

al h.

Russ · February 6, 2003 2:40PM

If that crosses to NGC at the same grade, it's a $1000 plus coin. It would be POP 1.

Russ, NCNE

keets · February 6, 2003 2:54PM

hey russ

i must have looked at that thing 100 times cause i couldn't believe i actually stumbled onto it. what was killing me was that the underbidders were bumping it a little and i knew i couldn't be home for the close of the auction. i just put in my high bid and hoped for the best.

you may remember a few weeks back i had posed a question about an auction disappearing in the final hours with no notice, the bids just being cancelled. well, that was for an NGC designated coin in MS66 that had run up to about $60 with me again holding my breath. i guess that makes this my justice coin!!

as a side note, i was so freaked about this one that i hesitated to post anything even now for fear the seller may reneg. my payment has cleared so i assume the coin is enroute. when it arrives i'll see if i can get a better picture and post it.

al h.

Russ · February 6, 2003 2:57PM

ROCK ON!

Russ, NCNE

MAULUMALL · February 6, 2003 9:58PM

Nice job Keets

misterR · February 6, 2003 10:39PM

Way to go Keets, isn't this hobby wonderful!!

Conder101 · February 6, 2003 10:59PM

Looks like the initials are still faintly visible.

keets · February 6, 2003 11:25PM

hello mike

it looks as though the very top of the "G" is still there. i'll know with a bit more certainty when i have the coin in hand. what i find interesting from a strike perspective is that with a low known pop it seems a reasonable assumption that the press operator was unaware of his overpolishing for only a short time and then changed dies. while there was probably some "FG" still apparent on the die, a strong strike would have been required for it to show. hence, most of the coins would be in the 63-64 range which show no initials. what results is a better struck coin going down in value if RJB is correct in his assessment since a faint initial is present.

my first thought is to leave the coin holdered as it is since the grade is noted and the missing initials are apparent to the naked eye. my second thought is to get it holdered by a service that would attribute properly.

as i said, i'll know better with the coin in hand.

al h.

keets · October 17, 2008 4:48AM

any up-to-date pricing on the 1982 No "FG" graded MS66?? i can't seem to find it listed in a guide of any sort.

GrumpyEd · October 17, 2008 5:06AM

Here's an 82-P without the FG:

TAClough · October 19, 2008 7:41AM

<< <i>any up-to-date pricing on the 1982 No "FG" graded MS66?? i can't seem to find it listed in a guide of any sort. >>

For PCGS MS66 1982 label marked "no FG", I have seen the price all over the range during the past six months from as low as $120 to as high as $300. PCGS does have one graded MS67 and there must be about a dozon or so graded MS66.

Question for Kennedy Collectors: No FGs

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