An alteration seldom seen, a 1941-S altered to "19 11-S"
mr1931S
Posts: 6,630 ✭✭✭✭✭
Found on ebay being sold as genuine...
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
10
Comments
Good catch. They probably should have gone with one that had the small mint mark. It would have looked a bit more natural.
LOL, it's genuine alright -- a genuine Lincoln cent [so they are not lying].
edit: In your title, did you purposely leave a bigger space between the 9 and the first 1?
@mr1931S You've said some pretty harsche things about counterfeits and the victims of counterfeits. Just a reminder.
Relatively ‘common’ alteration in the 60’s & ‘70’s.
I don't doubt that.
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
Here's another one. Sounds like you really want people to get ripped off!
I don't think the seller is aware. The auction states that is has been cleaned: I doubt he would mention that if he is dishonest.
I contacted the seller about this auction. Seller may not be aware that the piece he is trying to sell is a counterfeit. Yes, I stand by my "deserves to be taken" remark. True now more than ever with the abundance of free, accurate information available at one's fingertips on the internet.
Anger management classes not working for you I see. Where's your sig line? Too chicken**** to make one?
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
Yes i did purposefully leave the space between the first 9 and the first 1 in my title. I would buy this piece as a counterfeit. I have a 1944 altered to "19 14" that it would go nicely with.
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
Is there some sort of counterfeit detection book you would recommend?
The one I have is a 1944-S Cent altered to a 1911-S Cent.
Believe it or not, I pointed it out to a coin shop when they were putting together a circulated set for a customer.
The shop gave it to me.
Pete
I paid $2 to the shop for my altered 1944. Pretty good job about the same quality as the altered 1944-S that found on ebay and am featuring here, asking price $27. I would be a buyer at $3 (pay extra $1 for the wrong style 's' mintmark with the altered date) but that's about it.
I do recommend a counterfeit detection book for readers. It's "Detecting Altered Coins", author Bert Harsche. Some of the more common fakes with pictures are discussed by Harsche. Published in the 1960s and 1970s, "Detecting Altered Coins" is getting hard to find, however. "Harsche's" are collectibles in their own right, as the 3rd edition is the FIRST PUBLISHED work that tries to identify 1909-S V.D.B. fakes. I have four Harsche's, one 3rd edition, two 5th editions, and one 6th, and last edition. One of my 5th editions is a working copy. The front and back cover are gone from it but it still works as an everyday use copy. The 6th edition is rare. If I were to sell my Harsche's, I would need serious money for them. Readers here who want their own Harsche to enjoy are advised to check ebay from time to time for a copy to show up. Typically, the seller doesn't ask very much for their Harsche because they are ignorant of the publication's significance. So, see one in good condition for less than say, 15$, buy it. Again, Detecting Altered Coins is the FIRST PUBLISHED work on identifying 1909-S V.D.B. fakes. Bert Harsche and the Numismatic News team that worked on identifying obverse die varieties for 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. are numismatic pioneers. One literally has numismatic history in his or her hands when holding a copy of "Detecting Altered Coins".
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
Wouldn't we be better off with a genuine detection book.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
That was top notch humor right there.
Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection, 2nd Edition, a publication of the Professional Coin Grading Service is another choice. This guide doesn't go into how fake 1909-S V.D.B.'s were made back in the day like Harsche's does, however.
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
I saw the weirdest altered cent ever while at ANACS. Somebody started with a 1944 PLAIN cent, altered the first 4 to a 1, and then added a D.
ABOVE THE DATE!!!!
So, the genius who made it chose to alter two 4s rather than just one to make his masterpiece? I once found a 1914-D for sale in the shop I patronize regularly that looked funky to me. The shop owner was only asking $1 for it so I think he suspected it to be a possible counterfeit and just didn't want to go to the time and expense of authenticating it only to possibly hear fake at the end of the day. I sent the piece in to our hosts here and it came back from them as genuine!
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
spam
I've got a couple more recommendations for books for folks to get their hands on about counterfeits:
Counterfeit, Mis-Struck and Unofficial U.S. Coins by Don Taxay. A Guide for the Detection of Cast and Struck Counterfeits, Electrotypes, and Altered Coins. Fraudulent techniques exposed and explained. The secret histories of the 1884 and 1885 Trade Dollars, 1913 Liberty Head nickels, and other official forgeries. Coins struck from outside the Mint from Mint dies. Famous and pedigreed forgeries. Privately issued "necessity" coins. Mint errors and so-called Mint errors. Arco Publishing Company, Inc., Copyright ©1963 and,
Numismatic Forgery by Charles M. Larson. An illustrated, annotated guide to the practical principles, methods, and techniques employed in the private manufacture of rare coins. Zyrus Press, Copyright © 2004.
Numismatic Forgery will scare the bejeezuz out of you. Terrific read no matter what kind of coins one collects.
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
Foreign knock offs 😣
Applying some of the knowledge obtained in the four references on detecting altered and counterfeit coins I've cited might go a long ways in helping the collector AVOID purchasing foreign knock offs, or counterfeits.
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
The difference between a counterfeiter and a forger according to Charles M. Larson:
A counterfeiter might print up a stack of fake $20 bills and take off for Atlantic City or Lake Tahoe and try to spend them as $20 bills. Or he may create a sheet of his own postage stamps and use them to mail off his christmas cards. The idea, of course, is that the counterfeit is intended to illegally serve the same purpose as the original item serves legitamately. To be regarded as successful, a counterfeit only needs to be accepted as authentic once--when passed by the counterfeiter to his victim.
A forger, on the other hand, would direct his talents toward creating a scarce $20 demand note from the Civil War, or an ultra-rare 1918 upside-down airmail stamp--and market them to a collector for hundreds, or even thousands of dollars. With the stakes so high, for a forgery to be considered successful it must be capable of not only passing but withstanding the scrutiny of experts.
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
I've seen a half dozen of them before. In fact, they were implicated in Northwestern University losing a football game to Michigan 69-0 back in 1975.
It's a shame that you feel that way, especially since you were the one who got taken on your obviously altered "whispering VDB".
What's really a shame is you desecrating images of iconic Rockwell paintings. That's got to be a low point in your career as an artist here, no?
btw, I consider that at the end of the day I didn't "get taken." I eventually figured out how my counterfeit 1909-S V.D.B. was made (thanks to Harsche) so all and all it was a valuable learning experience for me. And, actually I got 50% more in "consideration" for my counterfeit than I paid for it. Aside from Harsche's information, J.P. Martin (a true expert) was most helpful than any of you all here in the identification as counterfeit. You're going to have to wait for my book to get the full true shocking story.
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
How so? Tell the story here if you will.
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
You did.
You didn't.
It was thanks to me and others here on the Forum. It must eat away at you that a) your beloved Harsche let you down and b) you lacked the ability to figure it out for yourself.
It wasn't.
Again, it was me and others here on the Forum. We saved you.
There will never be any book from you on any subject, and if there was no one would publish it.
A new addition to the Pearlclutchers Hall of Fame!
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Again, it was me and others here on the Forum. We saved you.
Saved me from what? The overlay you did just verified that a genuine 1909-S cent was used to make my fake which I remind you was in a genuine PCGS slab, slabbed as authentic. The counterfeiter used an obverse used for 1909-S but not used for 1909-S V.D.B. I bought the piece already slabbed but you conveniently ignore that fact. Why is that? If anything saved me it was PCGS' forever guarantee of authenticity. Gaggle of junior authenticators with a put-down agenda is pretty much what I had going for me in this forum during those times. J.P. was the notable exception and for his comments I am grateful. But it was me, and me alone who figured out how my counterfeit 1909-S V.D.B. was made. And I figured it out by my readings in Harsche. Why so much disrespect for Harsche, numismatic pioneer with the first published work (3rd Edition, copyright 1964) on obverse die varieties of 1909-S cents? Really Ikes, you should get a handle on your anger. It's not good for a body to carry around so much anger.
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
I've seen a half dozen of them (19 11-S alteration) before. In fact, they were implicated in Northwestern University losing a football game to Michigan 69-0 back in 1975.
How so? Tell the story here if you will.
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
The motel we stayed at in Ann Arbor for the Michigan game was across the street from a coin shop. I couldn't resist going over there after breakfast before the game. In the shop, I asked to look at some 1911-S and 1914-D Lincolns while 4-5 customers were milling around. All of his half dozen or so 1911-Ss and 1914-Ds were altered 1941-Ss and 1944-Ds. There was a VDB on Lincoln's shoulder on all the coins, and one could see the counterfeiter had removed metal. I mentioned that to the dealer and everyone in the shop had to take a look at these altered coins. After wrecking that coin dealer's morning, I was stopped at the hotel door by an assistant coach and got reamed out for visiting the shop.
Michigan executed very well that day. Bo Schembechler had called a late-night team meeting and was concerned Michigan might lose after our 30-0 win over Indiana the previous week. The game from the start was a blowout. It had to be stopped twice because NU fans who took busses to the game were given apples as part of a sack lunch and they started throwing their apples at NU players on the sideline. The final score ended up 69-0 Michigan, and my trip to the coin shop was cited as the prime example of our not being mentally prepared for the game. Odd because I played well that day after our starting DT pulled himself from the game with a sore shoulder.
I love coin shops. If they didn't want me going to a coin shop across the street, then they should have picked a different hotel.
Wow, as a Lincoln collector that is fall off a log obvious.
We saved you from Harsche, from yourself, and from the "whispering VDB".
We saved you. You owe it all to us.
A brick and mortar coin shop selling altered date Lincoln cents like they are candy. The owner must have been manufacturing them in the back room of the shop. That's a helluva story. Thanks for sharing it here.
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)
I would ask Larson was my fake 1909-S V.D.B. a counterfeit or was it a forgery. The piece certainly wasn't made to pass as a penny at the candy store since it already was an authentic penny. I think the dealer I bought it from had bought Lincoln cent collection and the fake 1909-S V.D.B. piece was part of the collection he bought. Dealer sent the piece to PCGS for authentication and grading without doing a detailed examination of it.
I bought already slabbed and didn't give it's authenticity a second thought. I would get it out from time to time in the two years I owned it to make sure the 'S' hadn't fallen off. The one thing I really enjoyed about my S V.D.B. was it's 'S' position, far low and far right. I saw this particular position of 'S' as very cool. Come to find out we have a problem here though. Harsche obverse #6 for 1909-S Lincoln cent is unknown for 1909-S V.D.B.
I should mention that I first got suspicious about my coin's authenticity from reading a member's thread here about "deep valley" and "shallow valley" 'N' in "UNITED". My fake piece had a deep valley 'N', or "new style" 'N' which happens to be unknown for authentic 1909-S V.D.B. Harsche is silent about this. Discoveries have been made about 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. Lincolns since 1964, of course.The focus of Harsche regarding 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. is on the position of the 'S' mintmark. I once remarked in one of the threads that my slabbed piece had so much wrong with it that maybe it was real, and could be the long rumored, hitherto undiscovered 5th die variety of 1909-S V.D.B. Stranger things have happened, right?
I learned so much from the experience with my fake 1909-S V.D.B. that I have no fear of buying this variety raw, confident that I won't get stuck with a fake. Unless one using the amazing technology available these days is able to produce a perfect 1909-S V.D.B. using genuine 1909-S with a "proper" 'S' position AND a "proper" reverse (old style 'N' in UNITED) is able to etch onto the piece a "V.D.B.", perfect in all respects, that is...
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."
---Will Rogers (Nov 4, 1879-Aug 15,1935)