@RedneckHB said:
5.26 oz vs 100 oz? Is this a trick question?
.
For you it is.
.
Oh. Wow. You got me. I guess this is that new math "they" talk about.
As a wealth building scheme, collectors will always fall behind investors.
.
The 100-oz silver bar dropped in perceived value almost $1,000 overnight (but still worth a lot at $7,000+).
The vintage San Francisco Mint silver ingot is still worth the same as it was before last night's drop in silver prices.
A high-frequency speculative trader (of anything) will always fall behind.
.
That 5oz bar is worth ~$375 until you can find another collector (counter-party). That 100oz bar is worth 7000 with no effort or time involved to find a counter-party.
There is no argument here.
.
You are evading the point.
The point being that the price (value) of collectible coins and bullion items is less volatile than physical (generic) bullion, which is less volatile than paper derivatives.
@RedneckHB said:
5.26 oz vs 100 oz? Is this a trick question?
.
For you it is.
.
Oh. Wow. You got me. I guess this is that new math "they" talk about.
As a wealth building scheme, collectors will always fall behind investors.
.
The 100-oz silver bar dropped in perceived value almost $1,000 overnight (but still worth a lot at $7,000+).
The vintage San Francisco Mint silver ingot is still worth the same as it was before last night's drop in silver prices.
A high-frequency speculative trader (of anything) will always fall behind.
.
That 5oz bar is worth ~$375 until you can find another collector (counter-party). That 100oz bar is worth 7000 with no effort or time involved to find a counter-party.
There is no argument here.
.
You are evading the point.
The point being that the price (value) of collectible coins and bullion items is less volatile than physical (generic) bullion, which is less volatile than paper derivatives.
.
Some might say it is more volatile as the value of that bar is somewhere between 350 and 7000, depending on the counter-party. Because it is so thinly traded, one really doesnt know that the value of that little bar is on a daily basis, like a commonly traded 100oz bar might be.
On any given day there.may not even be a buyer above melt on that bar, so it would be worth 350. Then the next day you get a tire kicker collecter willing to give you 4000. Then he disappears the next day and another buyer offers melt. Can you see that volatility?
@RedneckHB said:
On any given day there.may not even be a buyer above melt on that bar, so it would be worth 350. Then the next day you get a tire kicker collecter willing to give you 4000. Then he disappears the next day and another buyer offers melt. Can you see that volatility?
One does not measure volatility on ask or bid, it is measured using prices actually paid.
When gold and silver move together, it signals the coming end of fiat money.
@RedneckHB said:
On any given day there.may not even be a buyer above melt on that bar, so it would be worth 350. Then the next day you get a tire kicker collecter willing to give you 4000. Then he disappears the next day and another buyer offers melt. Can you see that volatility?
One does not measure volatility on ask or bid, it is measured using prices actually paid.
.
Yes, I was going to write exactly that.
There are too many hypotheticals in the scenario.
Track actual sales. That is what determines volatility.
If I offer $2,000 for a 100-troy-oz silver bar does that increase the volatility ?
No, it is a non-event.
@RedneckHB said:
On any given day there.may not even be a buyer above melt on that bar, so it would be worth 350. Then the next day you get a tire kicker collecter willing to give you 4000. Then he disappears the next day and another buyer offers melt. Can you see that volatility?
One does not measure volatility on ask or bid, it is measured using prices actually paid.
.
Yes, I was going to write exactly that.
There are too many hypotheticals in the scenario.
Track actual sales. That is what determines volatility.
If I offer $2,000 for a 100-troy-oz silver bar does that increase the volatility ?
No, it is a non-event.
@RedneckHB said:
Some might say it is more volatile as the value of that bar is somewhere between 350 and 7000, depending on the counter-party. Because it is so thinly traded, one really doesnt know that the value of that little bar is on a daily basis, like a commonly traded 100oz bar might be.
On any given day there.may not even be a buyer above melt on that bar, so it would be worth 350. Then the next day you get a tire kicker collecter willing to give you 4000. Then he disappears the next day and another buyer offers melt. Can you see that volatility?
@RedneckHB said:
Illiquidity is much more a risk than Volatility.
It's a big event.
.
So now I see you are backing off on your "volatility" claim. At least we accomplished that.
"Illiquidity" only matters when there is a forced liquidation.
By your flawed definitions, all real estate would be "illiquid" and "volatile" because it takes a little effort to sell it.
You can say what you want and try to convince otherwise but to me your little gutter bar is not even worth the current PAPER spot price. I'd offer you $15 back of spot for it and it would head straight to the melting pot. RGDS!
@RedneckHB said:
Some might say it is more volatile as the value of that bar is somewhere between 350 and 7000, depending on the counter-party. Because it is so thinly traded, one really doesnt know that the value of that little bar is on a daily basis, like a commonly traded 100oz bar might be.
On any given day there.may not even be a buyer above melt on that bar, so it would be worth 350. Then the next day you get a tire kicker collecter willing to give you 4000. Then he disappears the next day and another buyer offers melt. Can you see that volatility?
@RedneckHB said:
Illiquidity is much more a risk than Volatility.
It's a big event.
.
So now I see you are backing off on your "volatility" claim. At least we accomplished that.
"Illiquidity" only matters when there is a forced liquidation.
Didn't back off anything but you did open your eyes. Illiquidity is more more risk than volatility. I put your fear of volatility into context.
Anyone who would choose 5oz over 100oz is a fools. Now we have accomplishment.
You can say what you want and try to convince otherwise but to me your little gutter bar is not even worth the current PAPER spot price. I'd offer you $15 back of spot for it and it would head straight to the melting pot. RGDS!
Actually, he's just a Troll looking for attention.
@RedneckHB said:
Some might say it is more volatile as the value of that bar is somewhere between 350 and 7000, depending on the counter-party. Because it is so thinly traded, one really doesnt know that the value of that little bar is on a daily basis, like a commonly traded 100oz bar might be.
On any given day there.may not even be a buyer above melt on that bar, so it would be worth 350. Then the next day you get a tire kicker collecter willing to give you 4000. Then he disappears the next day and another buyer offers melt. Can you see that volatility?
@RedneckHB said:
Illiquidity is much more a risk than Volatility.
It's a big event.
.
So now I see you are backing off on your "volatility" claim. At least we accomplished that.
"Illiquidity" only matters when there is a forced liquidation.
Didn't back off anything but you did open your eyes. Illiquidity is more more risk than volatility. I put your fear of volatility into context.
Anyone who would choose 5oz over 100oz is a fools. Now we have accomplishment.
.
You sound like the type of "fool" who would choose a 24-inch by 36-inch velvet Elvis painting over an 8-inch by 10-inch original Rembrandt painting (same price for both), simply because the Elvis is larger. Oh well, your loss.
@dcarr I have seen bad trolls on the Baseball card side of this site but some of these senile PM guys really take the cake. This guy is quite a few cards short of a full deck and his boorish, argumentative discourse is very successfully chasing new members far away from the site. I came over this way from the card message board because I've been sitting on a good little silver stack for a couple years and it has substantially outperformed the cards this year. But members like this really make people not want to come around here.
@West22 said: @dcarr I have seen bad trolls on the Baseball card side of this site but some of these senile PM guys really take the cake. This guy is quite a few cards short of a full deck and his boorish, argumentative discourse is very successfully chasing new members far away from the site. I came over this way from the card message board because I've been sitting on a good little silver stack for a couple years and it has substantially outperformed the cards this year. But members like this really make people not want to come around here.
from one of the old guys - welcome
When gold and silver move together, it signals the coming end of fiat money.
@West22 said: @dcarr I have seen bad trolls on the Baseball card side of this site but some of these senile PM guys really take the cake. This guy is quite a few cards short of a full deck and his boorish, argumentative discourse is very successfully chasing new members far away from the site. I came over this way from the card message board because I've been sitting on a good little silver stack for a couple years and it has substantially outperformed the cards this year. But members like this really make people not want to come around here.
Coin roll hunting halves for the hell of it in the winter and pick up a little physical where it’s cheap which is almost nowhere. Metal detect when the ground is soft.
Sold a bit of paper silver at 76.50. Holding the paper gold. Physical stack stays in the safe and will never sell. After Jan 1 will let go of my position in Platinum/Palladium ETF after its nice move as it is getting crowded. Letting Silver & Gold miners & Jr ETF run as I believe we are in a secular PM bull market and they will be very profitable at these prices until oil spikes.
Wouldn't be surprised to see a nice run in copper, uranium and oil behind this PM bull market. Most institutional investors are poorly exposed to these sectors and I feel this PM run (esp in gold) is kind of a "hated" bull market. Those tend to run a little longer than most expect. Quite enjoyed this bull market but looking for openings to lock in profits as that is an area I need to improve in.
Coin roll hunting halves for the hell of it in the winter and pick up a little physical where it’s cheap which is almost nowhere. Metal detect when the ground is soft.
Sold a bit of paper silver at 76.50. Holding the paper gold. Physical stack stays in the safe and will never sell. After Jan 1 will let go of my position in Platinum/Palladium ETF after its nice move as it is getting crowded. Letting Silver & Gold miners & Jr ETF run as I believe we are in a secular PM bull market and they will be very profitable at these prices until oil spikes.
Wouldn't be surprised to see a nice run in copper, uranium and oil behind this PM bull market. Most institutional investors are poorly exposed to these sectors and I feel this PM run (esp in gold) is kind of a "hated" bull market. Those tend to run a little longer than most expect. Quite enjoyed this bull market but looking for openings to lock in profits as that is an area I need to improve in.
sounds like a great pm plan. can speak to the other commodities except to say oil seems like it only needs an opec shift to go up and who knows on that
and getting out is a skill, which brings me around to your physical stack in the safe. "never say never because it might hit 220" or "never"?
@West22 said: @dcarr I have seen bad trolls on the Baseball card side of this site but some of these senile PM guys really take the cake. This guy is quite a few cards short of a full deck and his boorish, argumentative discourse is very successfully chasing new members far away from the site. I came over this way from the card message board because I've been sitting on a good little silver stack for a couple years and it has substantially outperformed the cards this year. But members like this really make people not want to come around here.
Lots of viewpoints, lots of perspectives, lots of personalities, but also a lot of good information from very knowledgeable folks.
Oh good question! Getting out is certainly a skill I have not mastered. Yes, if we have a Hunt brothers type situation, inflation adjusted, that would be the time to dump all but the collector pieces from the hoard
What are your thoughts on the current outlook for PMs?
There's no reason to get out of a secular bull market especially when the fiscal and monetary situation remains in a complete shambles.................unless you need the money for something pretty important.
Allistair McCleod is giving some pretty good interviews in the past few days.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
@jmski52 said:
There's no reason to get out of a secular bull market especially when the fiscal and monetary situation remains in a complete shambles.................unless you need the money for something pretty important.
Allistair McCleod is giving some pretty good interviews in the past few days.
Yep. We are all different. But unless I have a personal disaster at hand I will NEVER get out. I'll pass it on if anything!
@jmski52 said:
There's no reason to get out of a secular bull market especially when the fiscal and monetary situation remains in a complete shambles.................unless you need the money for something pretty important.
Allistair McCleod is giving some pretty good interviews in the past few days.
I fully agree and maybe gave the wrong impression. PM breakdowns in terms of dollar amounts is 5% PSLV ETF, 30% physical silver, 30% PHYS ETF (Gold), 35% Silver+Gold Miners. So selling some paper silver is just a trade and doesn't much affect overall portfolio.
I would hold physical silver unless prices get out of hand. Same goes for gold ETF given central banks preference for it. Miners are a trade and there will likely have to be an exit at a certain point. If the PM bull has rolled over it would could be an opportune time to get back into VOO and growth stocks if those are in a productive spot.
@RedneckHB said:
Some might say it is more volatile as the value of that bar is somewhere between 350 and 7000, depending on the counter-party. Because it is so thinly traded, one really doesnt know that the value of that little bar is on a daily basis, like a commonly traded 100oz bar might be.
On any given day there.may not even be a buyer above melt on that bar, so it would be worth 350. Then the next day you get a tire kicker collecter willing to give you 4000. Then he disappears the next day and another buyer offers melt. Can you see that volatility?
@RedneckHB said:
Illiquidity is much more a risk than Volatility.
It's a big event.
.
So now I see you are backing off on your "volatility" claim. At least we accomplished that.
"Illiquidity" only matters when there is a forced liquidation.
Didn't back off anything but you did open your eyes. Illiquidity is more more risk than volatility. I put your fear of volatility into context.
Anyone who would choose 5oz over 100oz is a fools. Now we have accomplishment.
.
You sound like the type of "fool" who would choose a 24-inch by 36-inch velvet Elvis painting over an 8-inch by 10-inch original Rembrandt painting (same price for both), simply because the Elvis is larger. Oh well, your loss.
.
Oh. I thought i sounded like a person of logic and reason. My gain.
Let's get back to the eye candy
I've shared this story before, but here's a picture that has mixed emotions
I was in my local G&S place years ago looking through the $1 over generic bin.
I happened upon a portion of a cut JM bar and asked the owner WTF?
He said it came from his wholesaler, that's all he got and didn't know anything else... Junk Silver.
I didn't buy it and said it was a shame someone cut up a vintage bar.
A few days later I was looking through the generic $1 over bin and found the other piece, Except it wasn't the other Half.
I didn't buy either piece... again Junk Silver.
A few weeks later I was going through the $1 over bin and found a third piece of the Now puzzle...
I asked the owner how much and he said now that the pieces looked like they all were together 2x spot
Not Junk Silver priced Now, so I passed.
Hi Asheland::
Your bar looks to be a Very limited run of Canadian bars. The bull on the left side of logo are hallmarks of the Canadian refinery. This is the best Engelhard information I’ve found. The I. Run is about 90% down the page I sent you. This page only deals with 10 oz bars.
Again that bar looks to be a “Goody”
Mike
Comments
gold, silver, both?
.
You are evading the point.
The point being that the price (value) of collectible coins and bullion items is less volatile than physical (generic) bullion, which is less volatile than paper derivatives.
.
Some might say it is more volatile as the value of that bar is somewhere between 350 and 7000, depending on the counter-party. Because it is so thinly traded, one really doesnt know that the value of that little bar is on a daily basis, like a commonly traded 100oz bar might be.
On any given day there.may not even be a buyer above melt on that bar, so it would be worth 350. Then the next day you get a tire kicker collecter willing to give you 4000. Then he disappears the next day and another buyer offers melt. Can you see that volatility?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
upward price manipulation:REACTIVATE! baaa...baaa
Loves me some shiny!
“Often wrong, but never in doubt.”
One does not measure volatility on ask or bid, it is measured using prices actually paid.
When gold and silver move together, it signals the coming end of fiat money.
.
Yes, I was going to write exactly that.
There are too many hypotheticals in the scenario.
Track actual sales. That is what determines volatility.
If I offer $2,000 for a 100-troy-oz silver bar does that increase the volatility ?
No, it is a non-event.
.
Illiquidity is much more a risk than Volatility.
It's a big event.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
.
So now I see you are backing off on your "volatility" claim. At least we accomplished that.
"Illiquidity" only matters when there is a forced liquidation.
By your flawed definitions, all real estate would be "illiquid" and "volatile" because it takes a little effort to sell it.
.
OK. That's pretty funny. You sure know how to trigger this place.
Didn't back off anything but you did open your eyes. Illiquidity is more more risk than volatility. I put your fear of volatility into context.
Anyone who would choose 5oz over 100oz is a fools. Now we have accomplishment.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Actually, he's just a Troll looking for attention.
Philippians 4:4-7
.
You sound like the type of "fool" who would choose a 24-inch by 36-inch velvet Elvis painting over an 8-inch by 10-inch original Rembrandt painting (same price for both), simply because the Elvis is larger. Oh well, your loss.
.
@dcarr I have seen bad trolls on the Baseball card side of this site but some of these senile PM guys really take the cake. This guy is quite a few cards short of a full deck and his boorish, argumentative discourse is very successfully chasing new members far away from the site. I came over this way from the card message board because I've been sitting on a good little silver stack for a couple years and it has substantially outperformed the cards this year. But members like this really make people not want to come around here.
West22 you still stacking?
from one of the old guys - welcome
When gold and silver move together, it signals the coming end of fiat money.
Can't be ME! Love the Ag!
COPPER is gutter !
Coin roll hunting halves for the hell of it in the winter and pick up a little physical where it’s cheap which is almost nowhere. Metal detect when the ground is soft.
Sold a bit of paper silver at 76.50. Holding the paper gold. Physical stack stays in the safe and will never sell. After Jan 1 will let go of my position in Platinum/Palladium ETF after its nice move as it is getting crowded. Letting Silver & Gold miners & Jr ETF run as I believe we are in a secular PM bull market and they will be very profitable at these prices until oil spikes.
Wouldn't be surprised to see a nice run in copper, uranium and oil behind this PM bull market. Most institutional investors are poorly exposed to these sectors and I feel this PM run (esp in gold) is kind of a "hated" bull market. Those tend to run a little longer than most expect. Quite enjoyed this bull market but looking for openings to lock in profits as that is an area I need to improve in.
sounds like a great pm plan. can speak to the other commodities except to say oil seems like it only needs an opec shift to go up and who knows on that
and getting out is a skill, which brings me around to your physical stack in the safe. "never say never because it might hit 220" or "never"?
Lots of viewpoints, lots of perspectives, lots of personalities, but also a lot of good information from very knowledgeable folks.
Oh good question! Getting out is certainly a skill I have not mastered. Yes, if we have a Hunt brothers type situation, inflation adjusted, that would be the time to dump all but the collector pieces from the hoard
What are your thoughts on the current outlook for PMs?
There's no reason to get out of a secular bull market especially when the fiscal and monetary situation remains in a complete shambles.................unless you need the money for something pretty important.
Allistair McCleod is giving some pretty good interviews in the past few days.
I knew it would happen.
Yep. We are all different. But unless I have a personal disaster at hand I will NEVER get out. I'll pass it on if anything!
COPPER is gutter !
I fully agree and maybe gave the wrong impression. PM breakdowns in terms of dollar amounts is 5% PSLV ETF, 30% physical silver, 30% PHYS ETF (Gold), 35% Silver+Gold Miners. So selling some paper silver is just a trade and doesn't much affect overall portfolio.
I would hold physical silver unless prices get out of hand. Same goes for gold ETF given central banks preference for it. Miners are a trade and there will likely have to be an exit at a certain point. If the PM bull has rolled over it would could be an opportune time to get back into VOO and growth stocks if those are in a productive spot.
bubble with an unknown popping level. the stories haven't changed except for china's new export controls
i'm looking at silver falling a bigger %age than gold, platinum has got to correct, too
Oh. I thought i sounded like a person of logic and reason. My gain.
I just have a different opinion than you.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Just noticed you have almost 20K posts… made any friends on here?
When a wounded soldier said to Major Houlihan, "i hate your guts", she replied, "my guts are not here to be loved".
Im one of those old farts too. 20k, eh. Gonna throw me a party?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Blitz will - which will be easy as he lives REALLY close...
I recently got an Engelhard with the 1• before the serial number…
I have not been able to find out exactly why they did that… Any ideas?
My YouTube Channel
Let's get back to the eye candy
I've shared this story before, but here's a picture that has mixed emotions
I was in my local G&S place years ago looking through the $1 over generic bin.
I happened upon a portion of a cut JM bar and asked the owner WTF?
He said it came from his wholesaler, that's all he got and didn't know anything else... Junk Silver.
I didn't buy it and said it was a shame someone cut up a vintage bar.
A few days later I was looking through the generic $1 over bin and found the other piece, Except it wasn't the other Half.
I didn't buy either piece... again Junk Silver.
A few weeks later I was going through the $1 over bin and found a third piece of the Now puzzle...
I asked the owner how much and he said now that the pieces looked like they all were together 2x spot
Not Junk Silver priced Now, so I passed.
Hi Asheland::
Your bar looks to be a Very limited run of Canadian bars. The bull on the left side of logo are hallmarks of the Canadian refinery. This is the best Engelhard information I’ve found. The I. Run is about 90% down the page I sent you. This page only deals with 10 oz bars.
Again that bar looks to be a “Goody”
Mike
https://allengelhard.com/10oz-test/
MIKE B.