Undercover videos of dealer interactions?
logger7
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I've not seen much in the way of undercover investigations on shop buyers of coins and notes, whether pawn shops or coin shops, why are these not being done? Honesty and transparency are the hallmarks of good business ethics. From what I've seen most of the buyers of numismatic material in this area bend the truth, to be kind. They have people buying who are dissemblers. They give one version of value when buying and quite another when selling. They do a critical analysis making major issues over minor ones, use terms of art or argument that coins with market acceptable issues, ie toning, small scratches and hits, in the "wrong" holder, etc., or that "we have nowhere to go with it" and can only offer "x", when they know there is not much competition in their area. One shop turned a $70K purchase of a collection of high grade uncertified early Bust and Seated dimes and half dimes into a $700K payday after certification and other costs. Another had a major dealer stopping by for a visit and the shop manager told him how they "played" the customers, especially families walking in with substantial collections.
Probably undercover people offering coins and notes would be one way to inject some honesty if the business does not know that they are being watched. Online feedback builds confidence or challenges it, and with Google businesses can get unflattering feedback deleted for a $$. Are there reasonable ways to counteract shady business practices that are quite common or is the blame to be place on gullible and unknowledgeable customers? Isn't it up to them to get several offers before selling?
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I doubt there are very many undercover investigations unless there are numerous complaints and/or allegations against a paticular business. Most people know that pawn shops are usually a last alternative to selling things as they will most likely never get offered reasonable dollars for what they are selling. In my opinion, pawn shops are the last stop for desparate people.
Coin shops are a different situation. I think there are probably more honest shops than bad, tho' I also think that there are shop owners that prey on people who have no knowledge of what they have. This all boils down to the integrity of the shop owner.
As I stated, unless there are lots of complaints and/or allegations, bad shops will never be investigated. I'm sure that there are those that may have inherited a large collection with no knowledge of how to research them. People with no coin knowledge can be overwhelmed with a large collection and that's where the integrity of a shop owner comes in to play. People like that may never know if they got a bad deal or a good one. They have to rely on the honesty of the shop owner.
On side note, my collection isn't high dollar, but I do have a fairly updated inventory and average values of my coins and I try to keep my wife occasionally informed of which ones have more value than others.
My Original Song Written to my late wife-"Plus other original music by me"
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U.S. Army Veteran 1/11 ACR Fulda, Germany
I wouldn’t support invading a dealers privacy like that, for any reason that does not involve a law enforcement investigation.
"Invading a dealers privacy..." 😂😂😂😂 As if they negotiate nude or share some proprietary pricing model.
Gentrified swindlers would be exposed and honest dealers would be elevated; frightening for many I'm sure.
It’s not required that someone be seen nude or have their proprietary pricing discovered in order for their privacy to be invaded.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agree. The Better Business Bureau is the better alternative to report poor consumer practices.
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
We've come a long way from "Candid Camera", it looks like there is a lot of variability state by state, whether the business is recording customers or vice versa. https://getsafeandsound.com/blog/video-surveillance-laws-by-state/
The real question is : “ What do you want for it? “ If the family or individual is asked that and responds specifically, is the prospective buying dealer required by civil or criminal law required to
respond “ oh, no, it’s worth far more.”
I seem to specifically recall that court cases ruling that legally- recognized numismatic coin dealers with a business license cannot mislead or deceive sellers, while pawn shops ( and presumably flea market dealers ) are not civilly or criminally held to the same standard of knowledge or reliability.
Now, since those case rulings, slabbing and “ stickers “ have become almost a gamble in
valuing a “ raw “ coin or currency note. Is the raw coin an AU or MS60 or even an MS66 ? I’d guess a court may decide a dividing line might be 50%, given also the time & cost involved in slabbing. So, for example, if an unknowledgable seller sells a raw coin for, say, $2500 and subsequently finds out the dealer sold the subsequently slabbed coin for $7500 , a court may rule the dealer owes the seller an additional $1250.
Attorney costs ? If the demand is for less than $10,000 there’s the option of small claims court with no attorney permitted either side, and less than $50 suit cost.
The laws require evidence to establish any type of culpability usually. One business I deal with always provides a detailed receipt. Many shop dealers I know don't do that. He's been fair with me though I've seen a lot of material he's gotten at fractions of real market value. A Bust $5 gold piece that graded "MS63" by our sponsors with marked adjustment marks that he bought as "damaged". One local shop told me that an estate brought in a collection that shop #2 had offered around $220K for that they offered $290K for or so, that happens. It is common to give one version of market reality when they buy, quite a different one when they sell. Many estates go the auction route, so that they can't say that real market prices were not in operation.
Do potential sellers have the option to record the transaction on their phone, if they have one? Or would dealers balk at this idea.
Back during the first boom, I had a local TV reporter come into the shop to investigate. It was really the beginning of dealers heavily advertising to buy material from the public. While I was talking with this guy, a customer came in with some sterling flatware. I didn't know that this possible customer was a shill working with the reporter. The reporter asks if he can film the transaction for his report, to be aired on the 6 o'clock news. I agree, and proceed to deal with the customer and their flatware. I wanted to get the deal and I offered a very strong price. I was a little surprised when they didn't sell.
Anyway, I watch the 6 o'clock news and there I am, making my offer. This reporter had also gone to a few other shops and filmed them with this same shill. The other shops made embarrassing offers on this same lot of flatware. The next morning, when I arrived to open the shop, I had people waiting in line with shopping bags of sterling for sale. Worked out OK for me......
>
Wonderful story
That's not what would happen. The videos of boring deals would be buried and any negative interactions would be elevated.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Or dishonest business practices would be exposed. Someone goes in with no-problem numismatic material and are given dissembling descriptions and low ball offers. Those videoing the transaction put them online in accord with state laws. If the buyers did not know whether or not they are being videoed then they would be more likely to be honest.
See thebeav comments above. Frightening for many I'm sure.
There is a lot to unpack in this thread. But the #1 item that sticks in my head, and not just from this thread but also others, is the desire or attitude to do a "gotcha" on dealers....and that dealers are somehow all bad people. Maybe it's just me, but that is how I've been interpreting this type of thread lately.
Why such the negative attitudes? Have that many folks here been "ripped" or perceived they have been "ripped" in the past? Or know someone who claims that?
Every now and again, there is a thread on a shout out to so-and-so, who did a great job. Those are nice to see. Seems to me that if you want a list of reputable dealers, maybe just make notes from those threads.
A third or fourth thought....as has been stated on this board time and again, knowledge is power. Knowledge comes in many forms. Grading skills are knowledge. Connections in business circles are knowledge. I know multiple "dealers" that make it their business to buy and sell from dealers that don't have that knowledge. Are they "ripping" dealers? Or is it merely an application of knowledge?
Taking that to the example above, seems to me if you aren't paying for an appraisal to have some knowledge about a collection, then you are seeming to think that someone else should apply their hard-earned and paid for knowledge on your behalf...and only you should benefit. Seems wrong to me.
Thus, a "rip" is about knowledge and on some level, risk. So, if you think someone got ripped, maybe that someone just didn't pay for or do research enough to get knowledge. And knowledge would level the playing field, yes?
Why the gotcha? There will always be those who prey on others that don't have their level of knowledge, in tons of fields. It seems to me that it is the customer's responsibility to ensure the playing field gets leveled, or just trust and hope the other party is being honest. Caveat Empteur (?) (Enter latin word for seller here) and also, get second opinions.
2 cents.
Surf
That sort of laissez faire free market tolerance for unethical business activity is all too common. Full transparency and accountability will always benefit any field of business not be a hindrance. The customer is not benefitted by "black box" deals where sliding scales of offers are made. Personally I have nothing to hide and we should realize that customers can be just as unreasonable in their expectations based on something similar they think they saw online. Some buyers say "How much do you want for that?" is one line I've heard with all the others. It's a complex field, especially when you throw in metals with varying pm content, or if you're dealing with jewelry which can be even more complicated. I've heard dealers blame theft victims too, "You were too loose or careless". We shouldn't tolerate breaches where the alphas, sharks and masters of the game are running the show. Sure a professional serving the public should be paid for their time. The "appraise" then "buy" merchandise business model is common too, with the fee waived if the customer sells.
The PNG code of ethics is a good starting point for how business should be transacted: https://www.pngdealers.org/ethics
I think it's a broader societal shift. Think of it as 2 ranges; level of trust and acceptance of that level. We are now in a low trust society and people have broadly accepted it. I would like to move towards a higher trust society where people actively protect it. Caveat Emptor? Yea, maybe. But maybe we also identify the swindlers and honest men and treat them accordingly.
I have to disagree with you here. A shop owners "hard-earned and paid for knowledge" is most likely the only way he/she could have a successful business. A lot of people have to depend on the shop owners expertise to treat them with honesty. It's not the person that's trying to sell that only benefits from the deal. The shop owner benefits also if a deal is made that satisfies both the seller and buyer.
My Original Song Written to my late wife-"Plus other original music by me"
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U.S. Army Veteran 1/11 ACR Fulda, Germany
Start a YouTube channel, interview the shop owner and show off what you buy...Win Win.
Im not sure what you are disagreeing with. That is one possible solution in your for instance, but it assumes that the owner wants to dispense that knowledge for free. The seller could still walk, and then the owner has spent a bunch of time. That exchange happens all the time.
All I'm saying is that you should do your due diligence on any transaction. Do you get a second opinion on a major surgical operation? Should you? What about going to the store? Do you price shop? Those stores are willing to do what you describe....but also might have "poor" deals embedded in the store as well, so while you "got a deal" on one item, but purchased something else, you likely did not get a "deal" on that one.
If both the buyer (shop owner) and the seller are invested (e.g. the seller paid for a consult), the outcome is likely going to be more "fair" for both. If only one party is invested, then it is likely that only one party will get a "fair" deal, as the other will have factored onto the deal some risk, mark-up, or other intangible item to level the field.
This leveling can be the seller assumes fairness and/or is willing to not take the best possible outcome for expediency. Or it could be the buyer who wants more compensation for their time.
Playing gotcha is a game. If you are that concerned, get law enforcement involved. Typically, the shysters go out of business for a variety of reasons (if they are cheating the public, they might be cheating the state...) or their shop will not be as successful as it could be.
I guess if you want to be the police you can, but don't be too surprised if you end up on the wrong end of a lawsuit or investigation....or worse, public humiliation! Leaving a public negative review might better suit the purpose.
My only disagreement was leaving the knowledge solely on the sellers shoulders. Coins are a different niche than shopping at walmart or getting second opinions from doctors. If someone inherits a coin collection that they know nothing about, where do you think they can get a professional consult? My guess is a coin shop or dealer. They still have to rely on the honesty of either.
My Original Song Written to my late wife-"Plus other original music by me"
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8A11CC8CC6093D80
U.S. Army Veteran 1/11 ACR Fulda, Germany
undercover stings by media are nothing new. an individual doing it would be another thing
That was a news station, not some random person secretly taping. Do you know how social media works?
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H> @jmlanzaf said:
You've been licking too many freshly printed 1950s mint envelopes again. Take some activated charcoal and lay down. It'll pass. 😘
That's an area I dont care to go into. Its healthier 👍
Lol. You might want to spend 30 minutes on TikTok to see how people drive clicks. You want reviews, most businesses have Yelp/Google reviews. Gotcha videos will add nothing but a distorted view of things to the average consumer.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Richard Nachbar had an interesting business model which continues after his death.
I never quite understood it from his ads; but, it appeared he basically wholesaled the coins he bought and shared the profits if they were more than expected.
That's going to be a very ugly hidden camera video when the sellers realize they got 90% of wholesale. [It's all in the spin.]
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
While not undercover video, the following video reports on their experience offering to sell. That could be nearly as good as undercover video.
However, I don't recall seeing similar regarding established shops (done unknown to the shop) as opposed to the hotel buy experience. But maybe they do exist.
It is a long video at 18 minutes (I skipped through it to get a sense of it) and the results are about what you might predict. Still a good lesson for those who don't know and a lesson regarding any selling experience.
There are more resources more easily available for sellers than at any time in history. Some responsibility falls on them to use it.
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"They're Back! Hotel "Buying Event" Exposed. What Are They Paying For Silver Eagles & Gold? Coin?"
https://youtube.com/watch?v=5_QVURDsD58
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
That's something. Offering $300 for the gold that melts at $1146, a total rip-off with the most easily ascertained valuation on the planet if the buyers know what they're doing. I can imagine the ads: "Haven't you heard? Gold and silver at historic highs! It's time to sell, but we're only paying a small fraction of actual value because.....
I wouldn't want someone surreptitiously recording me, so I'd not do it to anyone else.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
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What’s to prevent the dealer from filing a lawsuit against the person filming him doing business from his table at a show based on violation of privacy, defamation of character, harassment, interruption of his business? Let alone filing on the bourse chairman?
Were I a bourse chairman I would not want people harassing my dealers (who pay my table fees). I would have security escort them out and if any altercation from them bring in LE.
Do you think a gentlemen’s club would tolerate somebody coming into the club filming a VIP member partaking in activities? No the bouncer would remove them.
The cameras are so small these days, you'd never know. Could fit them into a slab easily. While you're checking out luster, the Great Eye could be watching you.
So a dealer should be shaking in his boots some piece of crud is going to film him?
If someone harassing a dealer at a show security would be on them. If the dealer is a senior harassing them is a felony.
Take precautions. Hold the coins up to your ear and listen for beeping. Read prospective buyers and sellers a privacy statement or better yet, have them read it aloud, very loud. That way, the video catches the statement. Let's the whole bourse floor know you're not an easy target too.
Why stop at coin dealers? Why not go after all businesses that buy a widget and mark it up?
lol What is some stupido going to target me for in the bourse room - in some transaction I am probably losing money?
My biggest worry (shows) is - somebody could gun me down dead in the show parking lot, take all my stuff, and be gone in what a minute?
I doubt we'll see an uptick in videoing coin deals. It's unseemly to video personal interactions but it's also plausible enough that I'm surprised you dealers haven't already come to grips with the threat of it.
Between the repeated gentlemen's club references and your security needs, it's shocking we haven't teamed up for an apprenticeship yet. TBD
Yes thanks for the heads up. Really disgusting somebody would do that. Gonna get me a really brite flash lite flash back at them lol. There are all kinds of of threats, screwball incidents, jerk bosses, nutty players in life we have to deal with. Keep your guard up, lookout for number one.
When a SR in college (a long time ago) with my own apartment with the pool at my doorstep and lots of attractive girls - this guy about a decade older than me (contractor doing work for the apartment complex) - beat him arm wrestling and swim race (his stupid attempt to get a girl from me). He threatened me in the parking lot later in a sneaky way. Asked me what car in the apt parking lot was mine. I pointed to an area on the opposite side. Went home for the weekend. The Monday morning back on way to my mgt class the girl from the pool said “ xx was a real jerk over the weekend. This married couples car got vandalized.” I told her “hes bad news, watch out, don’t give him any info.” Asked her out “let’s go out dinner tonite, roast him.” She accepted. Made lemonade out of lemons. By that time (Monday) he already gone (finished job) from the area. Most likely some x con thug. At least I had sense enough go home for the weekend get the heck out of Dodge. Decades later I think he could have shot me dead in my apt that nite.
Have you thought about podcasting?
No but that’s not a bad idea huh? Podcaster on u tube.
Does podcasting allow for multiple edits?
I would think that an honest dealer would love to have the advertising . . . Some are making YouTube videos and their biz is booming. The dishonest ones, I am sure would balk of course.
This thread has turned into quite the novel.
An easier solution would be to shop your collection around. You need to be smart. Use the internet to possibly end up here like so many do.
Learn about what you have.
Contact Heritage, SB, GC and others.
I dont think its a good idea to trust just one dealer. Even though that one dealer may be ethical. You can always go back to them.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7 JWP
Yes. And exaggeration and outright fabrication are encouraged.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Except that it has nothing to do with your actual honesty. Videos can easily be edited to generate clicks by making the person look stupid or dishonest. You can't control the message if you can't control the edit.
Imagine someone comes in with a bunch of circulated Bicentennial quarters. I politely explain to the customer that they are common and worth gave value and they should take them to the bank. Or, worse, I offer to do them a solid and pay them face value for them. The person then edits the video to show some Bicentennial quarters that sell for hundreds of dollars and makes it look like I'm a crook.
We've all seen the clickbait coin "articles" that purport that there could be a million dollar coin in your change. You could unwittingly become the star in one of them.
And even if the intent is less nefarious, suppose you are the 10th person that morning who came in with "golden dollars" and you keep insisting they have gold in them and I'm a little short with you.
The videos that get clicks are not gong to be the boring ones where I look, give you a fair offer, and shake hands.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
This is the amazingest thing that I have read in this forum.
Caveat Emptor, brothers and sisters. Learn Latin. Irrespective of which side of the counter we are on, fair is fair. If it is not fair: walk.
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What happened to your female martial arts assistant? Is she not up for protecting you?
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
Oh she’s at shows with me. If some turd head stupido tried harass us she could kick them from our table (literally lol). However we would just get security to remove them. I have taught her how to find nice low pop MWG coins off the bourse. Some super buys. Sending some in for grading.
If somebody in the bourse room messing with say some dealer senior citizen that’s a felony.
However security has been updated on those people and ready remove them on sight lol. So they probably thrown out b4 anyone noticed them (if anything like that actually exists).