Another twist on ACG lawsuit...

dwood · February 5, 2003 10:37PM

After visiting their site, and seeing that "finding evil dealers" is more important to them than anything else (otherwise, why the prominent plea for emails?), I am left with a very intriguing question:

Where would you, as a dealer, rank in ACG's witch-hunt? Or better yet, what grade would you get?

They clearly state that the amount to be paid will depend on "how famous the dealer is." Are they judging this by total sales? Or reputation? Notariety? Relation (I hear Butch Patrick's nephew is a collector!)?

So, where would our dealers rank? Surely Laura would be worth $500? I figure that they would grade her an MS500 SFBL (Must Sue, Simply For Being Legend)

What about Anaconda? MS500 PL (Must Sue, Provides Logic)

I figure I'm a solid $3.00, or AG3 (Annoying Grunt)

What would your grade be?

nwcs · February 5, 2003 10:40PM

Link to their site. Sad, isn't it?

PS: I love this quote: "We've always been a leader in the Grading & Authentication of coins, but now we've sweetened the deal. Check our Specials!"

nwcs · February 5, 2003 10:47PM

Oh, man, I was reading their "special" offer linked from the front page and read gems like this. Also note misused words like "sited" below.

"ACCUGRADE coins offer such incredible value that every ACG coin sold is a sale that the Majors cannot meet or beat, so they tell you that ACG coins are “overgraded.” They don’t tell you that their prices are outrageous so that they can support their $5 to $25 million dollar overhead or that PCGS was sited, in the past, by the FTC for insider grading or that Heritage’s NCI grading service was fined $4 million by the FTC, in the past, for insider grading and and is still ” recognized” on the Coin Dealer Newsletter (Gray Sheet)."

"Examples of coins for sale in 2001 from Coin World and Heritage Wholesale Price Sheet versus ACG coins . ACG coins can easily be bought and sold on EBAY & YAHOO where over 1,000 trade a week:"

2001 CONSUMER COMPARISONS: PCGS ACCUGRADE

1947-D RED LINCOLN CENT MS-67 $395 DHRC $49.00 YAHOO
1954 JEFFERSON NICKEL PR-69 $2,150 DHRC $89.00 EBAY
1942 MERCURY DIME MS-67 FB $330 Heritage $88.00 EBAY
1937 WASHINGTON QUARTER MS-67 $1,095 DHRC $94.00 EBAY
1937 WASHINGTON QUARTER MS-67 $1,095 DHRC $94.00 EBAY
1941 WALKING LIB. HALF PR-68 $3,400 Heritage $1,425.00 EBAY
1953-S FRANKLIN HALF MS-66 FBL $69,000 Bowers & Merena $7,800.00 SRI
1957-D FRANKLIN HALF MS-66 FBL $1,500 R & I Coins $146.00 EBAY
1964-D KENNEDY HALF MS-67 $850 DHRC $89.00 EBAY
1985-S KENNEDY HALF PR-70 DeepCam $675 R & I Coins $79.00 EBAY
1921-S MORGAN DOLLAR MS-65 $1,350 Heritage $225.00 EBAY
1903 LIBERTY $20 GOLD MS-65 $2,600 Heritage $1,500.00 YAHOO

Kind of says it all, doesn't it?

nwcs · February 5, 2003 10:48PM

And this interesting grading terminology:

Accugrade™ has Introduced Five New Trademarked Grading Services:

MIRRORLIKE™ or ML™
Grading service for modern issue mirrorlike coins

FROSTED WHITECAM™ or FWC™
Grading service for proof coins with frosted white surfaces with no film or spots, is a grade above an Ultra or Deep Cameo Proof - the first off the dies.

Full Beak™ or FEB™
Grading service for Washington Quarters and Kennedy Halves that exhibit a Full Split Eagle's Beak on the reverse of the coin.

Full Split Hand™ or FSH™
Grading service for Walking Liberty Halves that exhibit a Full Split Hand.

Full Tail™ or FT™
Grading service for Buffalo Nickels that exhibit a Full Tail on the Buffalo's hind.

nwcs · February 5, 2003 10:49PM

Sorry, David, didn't mean to threadjack ya. Just was blown away by all the nonsense they added since the last time I looked!

nwcs · February 5, 2003 10:58PM

Oh but Mr. Hagar is no longer involved with Accugrade he says (from what I read). So this rant belongs to the Missus. I haven't heard about that tar and feathering... I did a search on google and didn't find anything. But I did find this interesting site. Boycott ACG

Read that site, makes some excellent points and discusses the ACG patents and trademarks, which are all expired or abandoned!

Dog97 · February 5, 2003 11:08PM

First of all.....I would never release any of your guys emails commenting an ACG. Any correspondence you send me is between you, me and a fencepost. My reputation is worth more to me than ACG's dirty money.
Second of all......If I were owner of a company that everybody was constantly bashing I would spend more effort getting to the root cause of everybody's complaints and get my company's business back in order.
Third of all......ACG is clearly trying to squelch opposition to their company by creating paranoia, distrust, and fear of legal action amongst us.

With that being said I'll admit I own some ACG slabs but I bought them because they were unusual holder varities such as early ACG slabs that predate PCGS & NGC and also ACG Photo Certificates that I bought for a historical standpoint. I have some 1997 Proof 70 Dcams that I bought for my 97 reference set. I paid like $9.99 each for them. Not from AH either. Would never do biz with AH no matter what he had for sale.
You don't ever have to worry about me buying ACG material because I think there it might be the rare, accurately graded coin, good deal or whatever. You will NEVER hear me say "I bought the coin, not the holder."

This recent reward & bounty policy proves now more than ever that ACG & it's owner AH clearly SUCK.

dwood · February 5, 2003 11:11PM

NWCS, no problem! In fact, I'm laughing right along with you. As a collector (I'm not a dealer, yet

, I just think it is ludicrous what ACG is even insinuating, much less acting upon. I think I've stated my *opinion* on these forums before. What continues to strike me as increasingly ludicrous is how ACG is carrying a banner that "grading is subjective, it is an opinion" (my words, not theirs) yet they want to sue people who have a differing opinion of their service.

No one asked me, but here is my opinion:

ACG does a dis-service to my hobby by constantly flooding the market with overgraded, mis-attributed coins, which to the the novice collector, appear to be "bargains," (as is so well portrayed in the comparisons on their site which you "sited" above

I will not buy an ACG slab, not because there aren't some nice coins in those slabs (even a blind squirrel can occasionally find a nut), but because I WILL NOT support a company that I do not trust, or that I think is in it for themselves only, with no consideration for the hobby, or the collectors.

I'm nobody. I've never sold a coin. I'm just a collector who loves coins, and loves to see others enjoy them as well. I also can't stand to see fledgling collectors taken advantage of, misled, or given bad information. So when I see a dealer, or a service who does those things in order to grab a profit, I want to make sure they never get my business, even if they do have the finest known, 1913 3-legged SVDB for less than $24. This is all my opinion only, and anyone reading this should value it accordingly. (I'll never be worth a $500 email in a witch hunt, but I still have my dreams

We battle a VERY SIMILAR situation in Astronomy, where cheap, "fly-by-night" telescope makers can kill a budding enthusiasts spirit with a horrible first impression. For the record, my opinion of Bushnell telescopes is not so flattering either. However, I think everyone at ACG should own 1 or 2 Bushnells (get the really big ones!!)

dwood · February 5, 2003 11:17PM

Oh my...tarred and feathered? Is this true?

Can you say "warning signs?"

nwcs · February 5, 2003 11:19PM

Yep, I know what you mean about telescopes. When I was 14 all I wanted was a Meade LX-5 Schmidt-Cassegrain telescope. Now I got me a Celestron Nexstar 4. So climbing there.

BTW, read that boycott accugrade site. Great info on ACG and their expired patents and trademarks.

Neil

MadMarty · February 5, 2003 11:23PM

I wonder if they will go after me for my siggy...

dwood · February 5, 2003 11:27PM

Marty....

You look to be MS15 DSL (Must Sue Derrogatory Signature Line)

nwcs · February 6, 2003 5:25AM

This web site goes into some detail on it. Link

baccaruda · February 6, 2003 5:39AM

i think i would be worth 2 free tickets to a semi-pro soccer match (no-doze not included).

BIGDAVE · February 6, 2003 6:41AM

I will leave you with this thought...The S.S. Central America...coins sold exclusively by Heritage, David Hall, Bowers and Merena and others, mostly PNG members/PCGS dealers. Over 5,000 coins that had been buried at sea for over 120 years encrusted with coral were treated with all kinds of chemicals to remove the encrustations, were miraculously restored to PCGS MS-65 at $15,000.00 a coin. The PCGS holders do not say SEA SALVAGED nor SALT WATER nor CORAL ENCRUSTED, no they have been graded by PCGS as MINT STATE. Have these people changed from 1989, you decide for yourself at

I would like David Hall to Explain why cleaned coins where not boddybag?

I own Pcgs coins almost exclusively, i was under the impression PCGS would not Slab a cleaned coin.......

baccaruda · February 6, 2003 6:46AM

i don't think he'll find your question in this particular thread.

Barry · February 6, 2003 7:02AM

I don't recall the whole story, but Hager was once sued by someone for fraud. As I recall, Hager had some work done by a contractor or consultant. He convinced the guy to accept payment in ACG-graded coins. Naturally, when the guy tried to sell the coins, he found out things weren't quite right, as he was told his coins were worth about 10% of their supposed value. as determined by Hager.
I believe Eric, K6AZ knows the whole story on this, and may even have it up on his web site somewhere.

maddox · February 6, 2003 7:29AM

These events are bringing to light some very interesting topics. I never knew about all the fines levied against PCGS, nor did I know about the FTC actions against others. Very interesting..

It would seem that all the grading companies have a seething underside, not just the ones that overgrade.

Insider Grading, thats a very interesting term. Ranks right up there with Fines, Probation, Investigation, etc...

Granted, I am very new to the political arena of this field, I'm not liking anything I'm hearing about anybody.

On top of all this, I personally do not like the ACG holders, they look cheap, the printing looks cheap. I don't own a ACG coin and I don't plan on owning one.

Justy my humble opinions

dragon · February 6, 2003 8:00AM

BIGDAVE,

That's not exactly accurate, the SS Central America $20.00 gold coins were not encrusted with coral, nor were their surfaces badly damaged, nor were they treated with harsh chemicals and cleaned before being graded and holdered by PCGS. If you had seen the pics of many of those coins prior to being gently curated, they were already in remarkably pristine condition considering how long they were immersed in seawater.

edited for spelling

jeffnpcb · February 6, 2003 8:16AM

Yeh it does say it all!! A fool and his money are soon separated by a PCGS label! The comparisons hold pretty much the same for NGC, ANACS and the rest!

The GODS in California must dictate the market!

Another twist on ACG lawsuit...

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