FS; FBL; RB; Red; FB; etc., etc., etc.
124Spider
Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭✭✭
This seems like a good time for a minor rant. 
There are at the moment two threads which illustrate, yet again, how silly it is for TPGs to separate coins, which exhibit a continuum of conditions, by labels, essentially trying to compress a continuum into two (or three) categories.
I know that I'm an outlier in many things in life; but I'm an old man, and I'm fine with that (confident enough to know that being "different" doesn't always mean being "wrong"). This is just one more example.
We can all see the color of a coin (Red, RB for copper; "toned" for silver), and we're all able to determine how valuable we think that is. To me, the border between "Red" and "RB" is squishy, at best, and the actual condition of the coin can change, once in the holder, over time. Why not let each buyer determine what he/she/they values that particular color, instead of throwing a huge bias into the system by a label?
Similarly, things like "Full Bands" can be seen, and it's utterly silly to pretend that it's a binary world (all "full bands" are the same, and all that don't qualify as "full bands" are the same). The label biases the price, sometimes very considerably, despite the fact that there often is a very tiny difference between "qualifying" for the label and failing to "qualify."
I value what TPGs add to the hobby. As one who has no access to excellent B&M coins shops or large shows, I buy all my significant coins online, base on photos, and the opinion of a quality TPG is valuable to me (i.e., I'm pretty good at grading the coins I'm interested in, but photos can be inexact ways to do that). But I really dislike it when the TPGs become nannies.
/rant
Comments
I think that the reason for the label exists for the same reason there is a PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG or any grading company. So that the coin can sell site unseen with only a photo with descrption. Without that only trust exists and with the variety of sellers or auctions, that is not a reality. Photos can be made so misleading or poor or what ever. JMO
Jim
Edited to add. I agree folks collecting specialty coins should be able to determine whether a specific coin qualifies as a specialty or not, but just like everyone should be able to grade, but in all reality this is not the case.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Thanks for this; it's useful!
My issue is not with the idea that "full bands" can be valuable to a collector, as a part of "good strike"; it's with the binary nature of human thought when given labels, so that a coin that barely qualifies as "full head" somehow is hugely more valuable than a coin that just barely doesn't qualify.
Most of the criticisms you have about the use of designations could be applied to the use of numerical grades, as well.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That is fair. But the numerical grades have much more granularity; it's not "good or not good," but almost 30 grades. If the TPGs wanted to put more granularity into these designations, so that any one step is not "all or nothing," I would not be criticizing them.
I agree in part. IMO bands, bell lines, and steps are more of a concocted marketing thing. Yes I know specialists may disagree, but to stake big bucks on trivial reverse design features on common coins illustrates the silly side of our hobby. A full head is another matter altogether as it is an important deign feature on the obverse. As far as color designations, I believe they are necessary if one can’t see the coin in hand. As has been pointed out, they serve the same purpose as grades.
I freely acknowledge that this may be an “old man” thing, as I fall squarely in that segment as well.
I believe that if enough collectors where willing to pay extra for hand colored coins, there would be a label for them also. Companies do, basically, what the market bears and most markets I've seen are led by demand. Now with AI taking over most creative positions, who knows what this hobby will look like in 20 years.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Like with grading, designations can be strong or weak and accurate or inaccurate. Just like the old adage says: ‘buy the coin and not the holder’ and in this case the designation.
I have seen FH SLQs that don’t look full, and I have seen others that are unattributed that DO look full. Knowledge and cherrypicking rules the day.
I have heard Walker guys say that those halves should have design designations too such as ‘full thumb’, ‘full skirt line’ and ‘full head’, but they don’t, as it was never implemented, although it could easily have been used for the series. The ones that do still command a premium.
Third-party grading services are great, but you need to use your own judgment. That’s what it all boils down to, IMHO.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I agree that the system, such as it is, is inexact.
I agree that one should "buy the coin, not the holder."
Which is why I don't like binary "designations" for non-binary conditions.
Last week I made a thread asking about full steps on Jefferson nickels. Plenty of replies and a mixed bag of results
It all comes down to, in the eye of the beholder, not what's written ON THE HOLDER
Mike
My Indians
Dansco Set
Well, except that's not entirely correct.
All else being equal--for the exact same coin--having FBL, FSB, FS, FH or whatever on the holder makes the coin more valuable than not having it on the holder. And that's true whether the designation was correct or not.
Sure, there are a lot of sophisticated buyers, who are discerning enough to tell for themselves (my original point in this thread); but there likely are far more who buy based purely on the designation on the holder, thereby driving up the price. Heck, they'll ignore (or not notice) any number of other flaws in the coin, and still love it for the designation.
If the market at large were as sophisticated as we would like to pretend, there would be no place for CAC; instead, a CAC sticker has become very valuable, all by itself--the same coin is worth more with CAC approval than without it, and there are people who won't buy a coin unless it has been blessed by CAC.
I agree with you, the point I was trying to make was look at the coin and decide for yourself what it grades rather then take for granted what's on the holder.
Mike
My Indians
Dansco Set
I certainly agree with that. The purpose of this thread was merely a harmless rant; I don't expect anything to change because of my little rant.
Sorry but I am in the "other" camp. I actually would like it if the grading services could offer more information on coins rather than less. By that I mean they will "detail" a coin but often times give very little additional information. i have no problem with the grading services giving "their" opinion on such things as Red/RB/Brown, Full head etc. Ater all the person submitting the coin is asking for someone else's opinion on the numerical grade, (Which every collector in the world can accept or reject as they wish); they can also accept or reject the grades opinon on additional opinions.
To be honest I think the current markplace does a rather good job of placing value on the majority of coins, and at the end of the day that is what the majority of collectors care about. The only real reason someone pays extra for a Full Head coin with a CAC sticker is that they want assurance that they are getting what they paid for. It is up to the individual collector to do the due diligence when it comes to making purchases; getting more rhater than less information should be a win. James
(Full disclosure: I was born during the Truman administration, and started collecting when JFK was in office..)
Collecting is all about acquiring, sorting, examining, discriminating, rating and describing.
Involving acronyms, sometimes vague terms, and lots of insider lingo.
Leading to many discussions and arguments.
All part of the fun!
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
I think you are right. I also think those designations their main customers (dealers) happy because they can sell the coin for more.