@mr1931S said:
After my research is further along to hopefully answer other questions that arise I will reveal what the true 4th die position looks like here.
A still unanswered question is, "was this 4th die used to also make 1909-S without V.D.B.?"
I'll be back after the Thanksgiving Holiday. Keep bumping this thread up to the first page 1909 Lincoln cent fans. That's where it needs to be for a time. Some shocking revelations are in store for you all.
I found this wonderful holiday greeting card with my PCGS #4 Issue for November-December. This is very nice artwork and it's signed. PCGS mod please check with the boss and see if you can identify the artist who did the fantastic drawings to make this card. I it. Publish the artist's name here if you would. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
@MsMorrisine said:
coinfacts has a few hq and high pixels images
Good point. Nab those images and do some overlays. Won't be me doing this work though as I don't have the time, the photographic equipment, not to mention the expertise. I struggle with my cell phone camera for col.
Actually, I'm finding overlays unnecessary at this time. I'm seeing that some of the die positions appear to be very close but do not appear to be exact matches. And that could be for any number of reasons, not just the reason being they came from slightly different dies. For example, i'm seeing in Coinfacts among the pictures in the 1909-S V.D.B. library that there seems to be more than one position for Harsche ①, the one which has the 's' high left, tilting a great deal to the right. ① is the wildest one, no pun intended.
①②③④⑤⑥ ⑦⑧⑨⑩⑪⑫ ⑬⑭⑮⑯⑰⑱
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
The thrill is found not in finally getting to the destination but rather in the journey.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
@MsMorrisine said:
you're enjoying the journey to nowhere along a potholed mud trail
sweet
Received 3rd Edition Detecting Altered Coins in the mail today. It's in good condition, cost me only $15.
WITH THE TREMENDOUS GROWTH of the Numismatic hobby and a corresponding increase in altered coins, this booklet on how to identify altered coins should be a valuable reference especially for the beginning collector.
For some unknown reason, the attitude in most reference works seems to be that a few words of caution are sufficient to inform the collecting public about altered coins, as a result the uninformed collector is the one who pays.
We have attempted to give the collector a ready reference illustrating and describing coins frequently altered, with a genuine for comparison.
Although admittedly incomplete, it is a step in the right direction. We invite your suggestions, comments, and criticisms, and with your acceptance a more complete edition will follow.
I don't mean to give the impression that coin collectors and dealers are all dishonest; by and large most are honest, and will not knowingly sell an altered coin; however, as in other fields we have our "bad apples."
I wish to thank the people who helped make this booklet possible, especially John Tkach, Harold N. Dally, Muray Pearce, Willard Riggs and Roger Bender.
In this edition we have a study of the 1909-S and 1909S V.D.B. Lincoln cents by Jack Tod, thanks to the author and Lee Hewitt of "Numismatic Scrapbook."
I believe the 3rd edition of Detecting Altered Coins to be the earliest known published work on identifying obverse die varieties of 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln Cents.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
The number of 1909-S obverse dies officially identified as distinctly different from one another is now seven. I know you all are anxious to see with pictures but you all are gonna have to wait for a time. I have more research to do before I will release my picture findings here. I'm thinking I will be able to identify an eighth, ninth, maybe even a tenth die used for 1909-S Lincoln cent with and without V.D.B. but need the time to sort through the PCGS database more thoroughly in that effort. In the meantime, I thought I would provide this cool wildlife picture for your enjoyment this holiday season.
As you view this picture ponder this question: Are you able to tell one turkey from the other or do the turkeys look so close to identical to you that you wouldn't be able to tell them apart next time you spot them together on your outing into the woods? These are Iowa wild turkeys. They are very hard to get close to.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
My 1909-S "no V.D.B." Lincoln cent from Harsche die #6. This position of 's' is the most far out "right and low" of all the die positions used to make 1909-S Lincoln cents.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
The picture you are using to identify the four svdb obverses is flawed. Flawed majorly.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Harsche got the first three obverses used for 1909-S V.D.B. right. The fourth one and the one the Harsche team never saw on 1909-S V.D.B. looks like PCGS #42023470. The 4 basic obverses used for 1909-S V.D.B. are now known. There could be slight variants in 's' tilt and position observed in any one of these basic 4. That's what I saw as I looked at 1909-S obverses in PCGS' Coinfacts database of Truview images. And that's because 16 obverse dies were used (the two RPMs not counted for this analysis) to make regular 1909-S Lincoln cents with and without V.D.B. The differences seen in position and tilts of 's' are fractions of millimeters, one group to the next. One group of S V.D.B.s that I did not see any shift of 's' in tilt or position as I grouped the images together in files to analyze is high left, 's' tilts right a great deal.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
And I did wait until after Thanksgiving to post my 1909-S V.D.B. findings. I have celebrated Thanksgiving on November 18, my late wife's birthday, every year since 2018.
NGC's image in the upper left corner of the set of four was, far as I know and am seeing, used for 1909-S without V.D.B. only. Harsche doesn't list it in any of his editions of "Detecting Altered Coins." It would be the 7th obverse die position for 1909-S cents. I would name it far high left, 's' tilts slightly.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I looked at a lot of 's' mintmarks in this quest to identify the four basic positions of 's' used to make 1909-S V.D.B.s
This one really intrigues me and when I first saw it knew I was in for it. Does the 's' on this gorgeous blue MS66+ tilt LEFT slightly or am I seeing things? This one, as a Pop 1 with 1 higher, is the very first 1909-S V.D.B. one sees in PCGS Coinfacts "BN" database. Low right, 's' tilts left slightly?
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
@mr1931S said:
And I did wait until after Thanksgiving to post my 1909-S V.D.B. findings. I have celebrated Thanksgiving on November 18, my late wife's birthday, every year since 2018.
NGC's image in the upper left corner of the set of four was, far as I know and am seeing, used for 1909-S without V.D.B. only. Harsche doesn't list it in any of his editions of "Detecting Altered Coins." It would be the 7th obverse die position for 1909-S cents. I would name it far high left, 's' tilts slightly.
One skill I developed in the course of this 1909-S V.D.B. project is I can now tell the difference between .5 mm and .7 mm leads used in my mechanical pencils just by looking at them. Mix the two sizes of leads up, put 'em in a pile and ask me to sort them into two groups, .5 mm in one group and .7 mm in another group and I'll be able to do it quickly without aid of a measuring device, and without error.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
@MsMorrisine said:
coinfacts has a few hq and high pixels images
Good point. Nab those images and do some overlays. Won't be me doing this work though as I don't have the time, the photographic equipment, not to mention the expertise. I struggle with my cell phone camera for col.
Actually, I'm finding overlays unnecessary at this time. I'm seeing that some of the die positions appear to be very close but do not appear to be exact matches. And that could be for any number of reasons, not just the reason being they came from slightly different dies. For example, i'm seeing in Coinfacts among the pictures in the 1909-S V.D.B. library that there seems to be more than one position for Harsche ①, the one which has the 's' high left, tilting a great deal to the right. ① is the wildest one, no pun intended.
@MsMorrisine said:
coinfacts has a few hq and high pixels images
Good point. Nab those images and do some overlays. Won't be me doing this work though as I don't have the time, the photographic equipment, not to mention the expertise. I struggle with my cell phone camera for col.
Actually, I'm finding overlays unnecessary at this time. I'm seeing that some of the die positions appear to be very close but do not appear to be exact matches. And that could be for any number of reasons, not just the reason being they came from slightly different dies. For example, i'm seeing in Coinfacts among the pictures in the 1909-S V.D.B. library that there seems to be more than one position for Harsche ①, the one which has the 's' high left, tilting a great deal to the right. ① is the wildest one, no pun intended.
①②③④⑤⑥ ⑦⑧⑨⑩⑪⑫ ⑬⑭⑮⑯⑰⑱
Lest I be accused of contradicting myself, the 's' for the position ① appeared to vary slightly as I went from one image to another without putting them in a file of closeups and then going from one framed image to another like a movie goes. Once I did that, I could go from one high left to the next to the next to the next and so on without seeing any shift of 's'. Shifts, albeit slight, were seen doing the same thing with the next three 's' positions, however. To identify all 16 obverse die positions precisely one would need a more sophisticated method than making short movies with Truviews.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
@mr1931S said:
And I did wait until after Thanksgiving to post my 1909-S V.D.B. findings. I have celebrated Thanksgiving on November 18, my late wife's birthday, every year since 2018.
Despite my criticism of your posts and demeanor here, I'm genuinely sorry about the loss of your wife and wish you the best in moving forward with life.
I'm thankful for having shared some 45 years of my life with the beautiful person my wife was. What better day to be thankful for that than a day of Thanksgiving on the day the person was born?
Going forward, I will entertain any questions readers might have about my work here and the implications of the findings I, and others, have made. I've had an absolute blast doing the TruView jpeg file movies trying to get more understanding about what makes for a real 1909-S V.D.B. cent, a coin that history shows has been faked more than any other U.S. coin.
Thanks again to numismatic researchers Roger Burdette and Tom Delorey for providing the valuable die usage information for Lincoln cents of the San Francisco mint, 1909. And special thanks to PCGS for it's wonderful library of Truview images of 1909-S V.D.B. cents.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
@gorebels said:
My summary of the s-vdb courtesy of Heritage:
The picture in the lower right quadrant appears to me to be of an added mintmark. It's 's' is wrong in style, and in a wrong position relative to the 1909 date. This picture set of closeup dates and mintmarks on 1909-S Lincoln is mostly useful to the extent that it shows how little the difference is between high/low and left/right designation for mintmark position. Picture in upper left quadrant shows a low/right position for 's' on a genuine piece.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
@gorebels said:
My summary of the s-vdb courtesy of Heritage:
The picture in the lower right quadrant appears to me to be of an added mintmark. It's 's' is wrong in style, and in a wrong position relative to the 1909 date. Also, this picture set of closeup dates and mintmarks on 1909-S Lincoln is useful to the extent that it shows how little the difference is between high/low and left/right designation for mintmark position. Picture in upper left quadrant shows a low/right position for 's' on a genuine piece.
Check PCGS' extensive library of images (Truviews) of 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cents in BN,RB and RD. Then report back to me here if you find a single example, just one, that has a mintmark position as seen in the lower left right quadrant of "My summary of the s-vdb courtesy of Heritage". Just one, truth seekers.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I can see where PCGS' library of S V.D.B. Lincolns might be a daunting and too scary a place for the novice researcher to be bumping around in. I can tell you all before I made some slide shows of some of those 's' positions, in the manner previously described in this very thread, some of the 's' positions that I knew were "different" from other 's' positions were starting to look to my naked eye as remarkably the same after a time. I mean, the differences in position and tilt of 's' would be measured by a straight-edge ruler in fractions of a millimeter. PCGS' Truviews are very precisely, artfully done. And for that I am grateful. Without precision/consistency of magnification and lighting used to make those Truviews the slide show approach to identification of 's' positions would not have worked as well as it did for us.
More mind-blowing findings about 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cents are on the horizon so be sure and stay tuned to this channel.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
No comments about 's' tilt on this one? I'm seeing a very tiny amount of LEFT tilt of 's' on this PCGS MS 66+, Pop 1, 1 higher piece.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
@mr1931S said:
The number of 1909-S obverse dies officially identified as distinctly different from one another is now seven. I know you all are anxious to see with pictures but you all are gonna have to wait for a time. I have more research to do before I will release my picture findings here. I'm thinking I will be able to identify an eighth, ninth, maybe even a tenth die used for 1909-S Lincoln cent with and without V.D.B. but need the time to sort through the PCGS database more thoroughly in that effort. In the meantime, I thought I would provide this cool wildlife picture for your enjoyment this holiday season.
As you view this picture ponder this question: Are you able to tell one turkey from the other or do the turkeys look so close to identical to you that you wouldn't be able to tell them apart next time you spot them together on your outing into the woods? These are Iowa wild turkeys. They are very hard to get close to.
The number of distinctly different dies identified to make regular 1909-S Lincoln cents is up now from 7 to 8. That's half of them. I should be able to positively identify a few more using Truviews in the coming months, as I have time to spend in the library. Get positive identification on 12, or for heaven's sake all 16, I will give serious consideration to self-publishing a pamphlet of my own on 1909-S Lincoln cent obverse die varieties.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
@IkesT said:
You couldn't even remember the one that you were sure was wrong.
What a joke.
I corrected myself as you can see with the strike out of "left" for "right." It's called "misspeak" which has nothing to do with "failing to remember." You should do some self-correcting of your own Ikes. You are doing readers here a disservice with your continuous buffoonery.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I have completed download of Truviews from a submission for grading of some Seated Liberty dimes I made recently. One of the dimes is especially interesting. I could have asked for variety attribution for it but decided not to since I would have had to submit it in a separate submission with added expense to me for the attribution and mailing cost.
Anyway, I'm done here so invite interested readers to my next thread, coming soon in these parts, which will be about my really cool Seated dime variety with Truview pictures, allowing one to see it in all it's glory. I'm glad I waited to get this piece professionally graded and imaged before sharing it on this forum. My amateur cell phone pictures would not do this coin's splendor any justice.
Me despido aquí. Ị adios amigos!
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I think this one made Harsche proud; happy turkey day everyone...
When is your next article about 1909-S V.D.B. fakes coming? You deserve an opportunity to correct the errors you made in the first one. There is that MAJOR error in the pictures you are using to try to identify real 1909-S V.D.B. That picture, showing up in an article you wrote? Not a good look.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I have discovered that the counterfeit S V.D.B. I purchased a few years ago is from the eighth identified obverse die used for 1909-S Lincoln cents. Here is a picture of an example from the 8th obverse die, a closeup from a Truview. The die identified here I've named #8, far low, far right 's' and was used to make 1909-S cents both with and without V.D.B. Compare this 's' position and tilt to the old school counterfeit (which we now know had an added V.D.B.) that I unknowingly purchased as genuine few years ago. Do not confuse with Harsche ⑥ which has the 's' even farther (slightly farther) right than the 's' on this one. #42023470, a BN 1909-S V.D.B.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Comments
No doubt about it; he's been rehashing the same tired topics for years now, or should I say "reharsching".
I'll be back after the Thanksgiving Holiday. Keep bumping this thread up to the first page 1909 Lincoln cent fans. That's where it needs to be for a time. Some shocking revelations are in store for you all.
I found this wonderful holiday greeting card with my PCGS #4 Issue for November-December. This is very nice artwork and it's signed. PCGS mod please check with the boss and see if you can identify the artist who did the fantastic drawings to make this card. I
it. Publish the artist's name here if you would. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Actually, I'm finding overlays unnecessary at this time. I'm seeing that some of the die positions appear to be very close but do not appear to be exact matches. And that could be for any number of reasons, not just the reason being they came from slightly different dies. For example, i'm seeing in Coinfacts among the pictures in the 1909-S V.D.B. library that there seems to be more than one position for Harsche ①, the one which has the 's' high left, tilting a great deal to the right. ① is the wildest one, no pun intended.
① ② ③ ④ ⑤ ⑥
⑦ ⑧ ⑨ ⑩ ⑪ ⑫
⑬ ⑭ ⑮ ⑯ ⑰ ⑱
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
You said that 5 times already.
You're obviously not going anywhere.
Looks like you have to keep doing that yourself. LOL.
Nope. You know less about coins than Dr. Lori.
The thrill is found not in finally getting to the destination but rather in the journey.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
you're enjoying the journey to nowhere along a potholed mud trail
sweet
Received 3rd Edition Detecting Altered Coins in the mail today. It's in good condition, cost me only $15.
WITH THE TREMENDOUS GROWTH of the Numismatic hobby and a corresponding increase in altered coins, this booklet on how to identify altered coins should be a valuable reference especially for the beginning collector.
For some unknown reason, the attitude in most reference works seems to be that a few words of caution are sufficient to inform the collecting public about altered coins, as a result the uninformed collector is the one who pays.
We have attempted to give the collector a ready reference illustrating and describing coins frequently altered, with a genuine for comparison.
Although admittedly incomplete, it is a step in the right direction. We invite your suggestions, comments, and criticisms, and with your acceptance a more complete edition will follow.
I don't mean to give the impression that coin collectors and dealers are all dishonest; by and large most are honest, and will not knowingly sell an altered coin; however, as in other fields we have our "bad apples."
I wish to thank the people who helped make this booklet possible, especially John Tkach, Harold N. Dally, Muray Pearce, Willard Riggs and Roger Bender.
In this edition we have a study of the 1909-S and 1909S V.D.B. Lincoln cents by Jack Tod, thanks to the author and Lee Hewitt of "Numismatic Scrapbook."
BERT HARSCHE
DETECTING ALTERED COINS, THIRD EDITION, U.S. CENTS THRU GOLD COINS FREQUENTLY ALTERED, © TWIN CITY PUBLICATIONS 1964
I believe the 3rd edition of Detecting Altered Coins to be the earliest known published work on identifying obverse die varieties of 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln Cents.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
ok
song
tv show
when's the movie?
The number of 1909-S obverse dies officially identified as distinctly different from one another is now seven. I know you all are anxious to see with pictures but you all are gonna have to wait for a time. I have more research to do before I will release my picture findings here. I'm thinking I will be able to identify an eighth, ninth, maybe even a tenth die used for 1909-S Lincoln cent with and without V.D.B. but need the time to sort through the PCGS database more thoroughly in that effort. In the meantime, I thought I would provide this cool wildlife picture for your enjoyment this holiday season.
As you view this picture ponder this question: Are you able to tell one turkey from the other or do the turkeys look so close to identical to you that you wouldn't be able to tell them apart next time you spot them together on your outing into the woods? These are Iowa wild turkeys. They are very hard to get close to.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
My 1909-S "no V.D.B." Lincoln cent from Harsche die #6. This position of 's' is the most far out "right and low" of all the die positions used to make 1909-S Lincoln cents.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
https://coinweek.com/from-the-dark-corner-an-authenticated-1909-s-vdb-lincoln-cent/
The picture you are using to identify the four svdb obverses is flawed. Flawed majorly.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5217/Counterfeit-1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Cents/
Harsche got the first three obverses used for 1909-S V.D.B. right. The fourth one and the one the Harsche team never saw on 1909-S V.D.B. looks like PCGS #42023470. The 4 basic obverses used for 1909-S V.D.B. are now known. There could be slight variants in 's' tilt and position observed in any one of these basic 4. That's what I saw as I looked at 1909-S obverses in PCGS' Coinfacts database of Truview images. And that's because 16 obverse dies were used (the two RPMs not counted for this analysis) to make regular 1909-S Lincoln cents with and without V.D.B. The differences seen in position and tilts of 's' are fractions of millimeters, one group to the next. One group of S V.D.B.s that I did not see any shift of 's' in tilt or position as I grouped the images together in files to analyze is high left, 's' tilts right a great deal.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
And I did wait until after Thanksgiving to post my 1909-S V.D.B. findings. I have celebrated Thanksgiving on November 18, my late wife's birthday, every year since 2018.
NGC's image in the upper left corner of the set of four was, far as I know and am seeing, used for 1909-S without V.D.B. only. Harsche doesn't list it in any of his editions of "Detecting Altered Coins." It would be the 7th obverse die position for 1909-S cents. I would name it far high left, 's' tilts slightly.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I looked at a lot of 's' mintmarks in this quest to identify the four basic positions of 's' used to make 1909-S V.D.B.s
This one really intrigues me and when I first saw it knew I was in for it. Does the 's' on this gorgeous blue MS66+ tilt LEFT slightly or am I seeing things? This one, as a Pop 1 with 1 higher, is the very first 1909-S V.D.B. one sees in PCGS Coinfacts "BN" database. Low right, 's' tilts left slightly?
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
you're thankful on the day she died? very odd
One skill I developed in the course of this 1909-S V.D.B. project is I can now tell the difference between .5 mm and .7 mm leads used in my mechanical pencils just by looking at them. Mix the two sizes of leads up, put 'em in a pile and ask me to sort them into two groups, .5 mm in one group and .7 mm in another group and I'll be able to do it quickly without aid of a measuring device, and without error.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Lest I be accused of contradicting myself, the 's' for the position ① appeared to vary slightly as I went from one image to another without putting them in a file of closeups and then going from one framed image to another like a movie goes. Once I did that, I could go from one high left to the next to the next to the next and so on without seeing any shift of 's'. Shifts, albeit slight, were seen doing the same thing with the next three 's' positions, however. To identify all 16 obverse die positions precisely one would need a more sophisticated method than making short movies with Truviews.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Despite my criticism of your posts and demeanor here, I'm genuinely sorry about the loss of your wife and wish you the best in moving forward with life.
My summary of the s-vdb courtesy of Heritage:
you're thankful on the day she died? very odd
I'm thankful for having shared some 45 years of my life with the beautiful person my wife was. What better day to be thankful for that than a day of Thanksgiving on the day the person was born?
Going forward, I will entertain any questions readers might have about my work here and the implications of the findings I, and others, have made. I've had an absolute blast doing the TruView jpeg file movies trying to get more understanding about what makes for a real 1909-S V.D.B. cent, a coin that history shows has been faked more than any other U.S. coin.
Thanks again to numismatic researchers Roger Burdette and Tom Delorey for providing the valuable die usage information for Lincoln cents of the San Francisco mint, 1909. And special thanks to PCGS for it's wonderful library of Truview images of 1909-S V.D.B. cents.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
The picture in the lower right quadrant appears to me to be of an added mintmark. It's 's' is wrong in style, and in a wrong position relative to the 1909 date. This picture set of closeup dates and mintmarks on 1909-S Lincoln is mostly useful to the extent that it shows how little the difference is between high/low and left/right designation for mintmark position. Picture in upper left quadrant shows a low/right position for 's' on a genuine piece.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5217/Counterfeit-1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Cents/
MsMorrisine and IkesT:
Check PCGS' extensive library of images (Truviews) of 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cents in BN,RB and RD. Then report back to me here if you find a single example, just one, that has a mintmark position as seen in the lower left right quadrant of "My summary of the s-vdb courtesy of Heritage". Just one, truth seekers.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
too busy with other threads
No, I don't think I will.
I can see where PCGS' library of S V.D.B. Lincolns might be a daunting and too scary a place for the novice researcher to be bumping around in. I can tell you all before I made some slide shows of some of those 's' positions, in the manner previously described in this very thread, some of the 's' positions that I knew were "different" from other 's' positions were starting to look to my naked eye as remarkably the same after a time. I mean, the differences in position and tilt of 's' would be measured by a straight-edge ruler in fractions of a millimeter. PCGS' Truviews are very precisely, artfully done. And for that I am grateful. Without precision/consistency of magnification and lighting used to make those Truviews the slide show approach to identification of 's' positions would not have worked as well as it did for us.
More mind-blowing findings about 1909-S and 1909-S V.D.B. Lincoln cents are on the horizon so be sure and stay tuned to this channel.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
You couldn't even remember the one that you were sure was wrong.
What a joke.
No comments about 's' tilt on this one? I'm seeing a very tiny amount of LEFT tilt of 's' on this PCGS MS 66+, Pop 1, 1 higher piece.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I can tell them apart. One of the turkeys has a harschepuppy sandwich on its back.
all turkeys look alike until one is getting schooled
Thanks Morrisine.
The number of distinctly different dies identified to make regular 1909-S Lincoln cents is up now from 7 to 8. That's half of them. I should be able to positively identify a few more using Truviews in the coming months, as I have time to spend in the library. Get positive identification on 12, or for heaven's sake all 16, I will give serious consideration to self-publishing a pamphlet of my own on 1909-S Lincoln cent obverse die varieties.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I corrected myself as you can see with the strike out of "left" for "right." It's called "misspeak" which has nothing to do with "failing to remember." You should do some self-correcting of your own Ikes. You are doing readers here a disservice with your continuous buffoonery.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I have completed download of Truviews from a submission for grading of some Seated Liberty dimes I made recently. One of the dimes is especially interesting. I could have asked for variety attribution for it but decided not to since I would have had to submit it in a separate submission with added expense to me for the attribution and mailing cost.
Anyway, I'm done here so invite interested readers to my next thread, coming soon in these parts, which will be about my really cool Seated dime variety with Truview pictures, allowing one to see it in all it's glory. I'm glad I waited to get this piece professionally graded and imaged before sharing it on this forum. My amateur cell phone pictures would not do this coin's splendor any justice.
Me despido aquí. Ị adios amigos!
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I think this one made Harsche proud; happy turkey day everyone...
I think this one made Harsche proud; happy turkey day everyone...
When is your next article about 1909-S V.D.B. fakes coming? You deserve an opportunity to correct the errors you made in the first one. There is that MAJOR error in the pictures you are using to try to identify real 1909-S V.D.B. That picture, showing up in an article you wrote? Not a good look.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Happy Thanksgiving!
they're using the wrong plates
We're already up to Thanksgiving 2050.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
more wrong plates
anyway, look how the food is positioned
I have discovered that the counterfeit S V.D.B. I purchased a few years ago is from the eighth identified obverse die used for 1909-S Lincoln cents. Here is a picture of an example from the 8th obverse die, a closeup from a Truview. The die identified here I've named #8, far low, far right 's' and was used to make 1909-S cents both with and without V.D.B. Compare this 's' position and tilt to the old school counterfeit (which we now know had an added V.D.B.) that I unknowingly purchased as genuine few years ago. Do not confuse with Harsche ⑥ which has the 's' even farther (slightly farther) right than the 's' on this one. #42023470, a BN 1909-S V.D.B.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.