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Strange George Washington Soley token

pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,823 ✭✭✭✭✭

This piece has been in my collection for years, but I have never really studied it.
Of all the examples of the George Washington/Lord's Prayer Soley token (Musante-GW-927 Baker-651), I have seen online, none looks like this.
Both the obverse and reverse dies are different from any other examples in auction archives.
And the Lord's Prayer side if different from any other Soley token I have seen.
The physical characteristics of the piece are spot on though (~13.4mm plain edge).

Any ideas? Fake? Restrike? Pattern?

Here is my example (without the loop) side-by-side with an example from the Stacks archive.



Comments

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 44,070 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm familiar with this type of tokens in general, but not with the varieties, so I can't answer your questions. I will say that I think they're neat, however.

    Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 29,816 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's a pleasant one to see

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,876 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The relief on yours looks much lower and less refined overall. I would lean towards fake or reproduction, but I also know nothing about these.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 10,842 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have one of those, smaller than a ½ Dime, I believe. I' dig it out.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have handled the other "Soley" piece a couple of times over the years and always considered it a copy or knock off the Soley Washington medalette. The quality of the strike is lacking as Soley's strikes were consistently done on the original U.S. Mint steam press that he acquired from the Mint. Although he struck a lot of product at home (per Dick Johnson) he reportedly took the press with him to the various fairs and expos he set up at over the years through the World's Columbian Exposition in 1892-3 and beyond.

    As mentioned in the OP, Soley's Lord's Prayer reverse is consistent over the many issues where he combined the LP reverse with various obverses. Since he was an employee of and had an outside working relationship with the Philadelphia Mint he was probably able to make working dies as needed. Unless it was an emergency, I highly doubt that he would have made completely new dies, especially with a different wording sequence on the reverse (and a hooked nose on GW?). The other LP die attributed to Soley (the broad space, with-star variety) still maintains the wording and quality of the mass produced GW variety which is most familiar.

    The Lord's Prayer reverse use was popular and used in their own format by other die sinkers such as Jas. Murdock of Cincinnati. He produced the common Langdon Bakery 13mm LP piece (Rulau Oh-Ci-101) and other Ohio Valley tokens using the LP reverse (Newport KY, etc).

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,823 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tokenpro said:
    I have handled the other "Soley" piece a couple of times over the years and always considered it a copy or knock off the Soley Washington medalette. The quality of the strike is lacking as Soley's strikes were consistently done on the original U.S. Mint steam press that he acquired from the Mint. Although he struck a lot of product at home (per Dick Johnson) he reportedly took the press with him to the various fairs and expos he set up at over the years through the World's Columbian Exposition in 1892-3 and beyond.

    As mentioned in the OP, Soley's Lord's Prayer reverse is consistent over the many issues where he combined the LP reverse with various obverses. Since he was an employee of and had an outside working relationship with the Philadelphia Mint he was probably able to make working dies as needed. Unless it was an emergency, I highly doubt that he would have made completely new dies, especially with a different wording sequence on the reverse (and a hooked nose on GW?). The other LP die attributed to Soley (the broad space, with-star variety) still maintains the wording and quality of the mass produced GW variety which is most familiar.

    The Lord's Prayer reverse use was popular and used in their own format by other die sinkers such as Jas. Murdock of Cincinnati. He produced the common Langdon Bakery 13mm LP piece (Rulau Oh-Ci-101) and other Ohio Valley tokens using the LP reverse (Newport KY, etc).

    Interesting! Thank you for your comments.

    So you think my example is a fake?!

    I wonder why such a thing would be faked?

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,840 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Fake? Maybe not. Perhaps it is just a contemporary rip-off of a token that was seen to be a good seller. Since it is not a coin the maker didn't have to be concerned with any counterfeiting laws.

    Just think of how many companies made things like Civil War Tokens that mimicked each others designs.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No, I don't think it is a fake but I also don't believe that it is a product of Soley. It does not have the quality and precision of Soley's die work and the reworded reverse is not consistent with all the other Soley medalettes (as you mentioned).

    I do believe that it is an inferior copy of the Soley George Washington medalette created by another die sinker similar in manner to the work of Mishawaka, Indiana die sinker H.D. HIggins. Higgins issued many somewhat crude and lower relief Civil War tokens copied or based on the tokens of other Eastern die sinkers.

    Why would it be copied? The usual age old reason - $$$. Based on how many examples are still available, George Soley must have sold a whole lot of product over many expositions and many years. This would have been noticed by other merchants and we know that success breeds imitation. The abundance of other later Lord's Prayer (LP) tokens indicates the popularity of the topic. Soley was prolific with his issues - why would there not be more survivors of the OP type?

    Could it still be a crude or damaged work by Soley? Of course it might be but IMHO based on the the above and one or two or more years of experience I believe it is extremely unlikely.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 33,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know nothing, but I like the idea that this is a contemporary imitation sold to make a buck. This was the era where many advertisements proclaimed “Beware of Imitations!”
    .
    That would make it a contemporary counterfeit, but not of a coin.

    Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," due out late 2025.

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