Considering 2nd Morgan Dollar Purchase for new collector
dragonwalker
Posts: 9 ✭
I recently started my interest and collection of Morgans. I was interested in a DMPL example from CC and I was thinking of getting one in a common date year. I came across this option on ebay which coincidentally I'm physically near the store. I called up the store and they said they could do about 10% off the ebay price and I wouldn't need to pay sales tax. Is this a good deal for what it is and do you think I could do better at a show or another coin offered somewhere else? I noticed it's in a old PCGS holder which have a reputation of grading more strictly so my other question is how fair or accurate do you guys think the grading is?
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You had a pretty good first post and 17 replies with zero further engagement from you. It's bad form to come here and start threads asking for advice then disappear.
@Morgan White My intention was not to "disappear" and I have read all of the posts in my recent post and I found it informative and helpful. I noticed there were a few questions and responses on my previous thread that were not directed at me so I saw no need to respond. Unless I'm mistaken, I didn't see any questions directed at me but I assure you any responses were helpful just as I appreciate any responses to my questions now. Your comment made me notice there are reactions to posts that I can make to signal agreement and I will try to engage that way.
Have you looked up auction sales for that grade to see what such coins have been bringing?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My best advice to you is to do some homework.
Sign up to some auction houses.
Look at past sales.
Look at ebay completed sales.
Get the pcgs app that will also guide you.
You said this seller is close to where you live.
Go look at the coin and see if you like it.
This forum is great for information but in the end the choice is yours.
Good luck!
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7
You seem overly anxious to spend money without really knowing much about the things you are buying. This is a good way to waste lots and lots of money. CC dollars are very common and get their high prices for being popular, not rare. Don't buy anything unless you really know the market you are involving yourself in.
And then there is the issue of counterfeit CC dollars both raw and in counterfeit slabs. Know what you are doing before spending any money.
A reaction works to recognize the members who deserve acknowledgment.
Get a free membership at Heritage, and study the coins in their sold archives. It's a trove of information for free.
@MFeld @Morgan13 @291fifth @kaz Yes, I have looked at recent sold auctions on ebay, Heritage, GC, and I have also looked at the Redbook, Numismedia and Greysheet for guidance. One of the challenges is I'm seeing a lot of variation on the recent prices sold so I'm trying to understand what is the true market value of the coin (I'm trying to stay within recent 6 months). I know the price guides are just rough guides. For instance, Greysheet has this at $630 (I'm aware that this is for dealer to dealer transactions) while Numismedia has it at $860. I have read that collector purchase prices above Greysheet typically are 10-30% higher so that would put Numis's estimate high. At the same time my first Morgan I got was bought at a substantial discount from Numis prices so I'm not certain if Numis prices also tend to be high.
Another question I would like to get answered from those of you with experience is judging the relative grading of the coin to see if it seems correct given that it's a older PCGS holder (which I've identified as from 90'-93') and I have heard that grading was more strict in the past but not sure if this era is part of that more "strict" grading. One thought I had was that perhaps I could have it evaluated by CAC or possibly regraded as there is a nice premium at 65. I'm just trying to get help to see if this is a good opportunity.
From the research I've conducted I have read that there is a scarcity factor that goes into why CC dollars are sold at a premium so it's not entirely based on unfounded popularity. With that said, I bet the CC coin prices probably benefit a bit more disproportionally from their origin and history but the reality is that must be taken into consideration and becomes part of that market consideration. For instance, I'm collecting CC precisely for that reason and the fact there are only 13 years of minting so there are fewer coins to "complete" the collection I am interested in. Everything I read including the opinions of others is a part of my research.
Have not done a price comparison but I like the coin.
DMPL's are an undervalued area to collect IMHO
One rule of thumb, believe every past owner of this coin has thought about or actually sent in for reconsideration or a CAC bean.
If the price is in the ballpark buy it for long term collection.
Flipping is a whole other game, and you are tailgating outside the stadium
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Starting out, there's no way you should be trying to evaluate coins based on if you think they will CAC.
As much as I hate CAC for market reasons, I have to admit the majority of beaned coins are some of the nicest coins for their respective grades. My advice would be just buy coins already beaned. CC dollars will have plenty of choices in that regard.
PCGS/CAC is currently the gold standard for resale, so then the only issue on the buying side is not to pay too much up front. Seeking PCGS/CAC will limit your variable to price research only. You can learn how to grade and evaluate quality as you progress.
Keep in mind that DMPLs in OGHs may not get a DMPL designation today because grading standards have changed. It’s also very difficult if not impossible to properly evaluate a DMPL or proof coin by an image.
Really. Lighten up.
OP has been a member for all of eleven days.
PCGS started grading coins in 1986, so that (not 1990) would be the first year of their “older” holders.
I recommend not making any assumptions as to whether a coin might be strictly graded, based on the age of the holder. Although grading tended to be stricter long ago, most of the conservatively graded coins have been picked over and regraded over the years. And regardless of the holder, more times than not, if a coin would bring a large premium with a CAC sticker, it’s already been submitted to CAC.
Take your time and be selective - there will be more than enough buying opportunities.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You should have used the "Lighten up Francis" meme. I would have appreciated that.
You don't like anybody touching your stuff. Maybe he thought if he touched your stuff, you'd kill him.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Looks to me like you have some good answers. You should also look at other coins of the same make and model. See if they cost the same but are nicer looking. Don't get stuck on just one coin.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7
@skier07 Thanks for letting me know about that. This is the kind of information that can inform me if I go to check it out. So I will definitely ask to see a DMPL coin in the same grade to compare against.
@Morgan13 What's unique about this coin is that it happens to be close by so I can look at it. Online coins are riskier and probably more expensive with tax and shipping involved + the fact that I can't see them. I'm also not quite certain how hard it would be to find a common date, CC, in good MS state, that is a DMPL at a show. I think the DMPL is the biggest limiter.
Try attending a larger show where there is auction lot viewing and look at as many coins as possible.
Great Collections in Irvine and Stacks Bowers in Costa Mesa allows lot viewing if you RSVP. Heritage in Beverly Hills sometimes has lot viewing. If you’re interested in anything make an appointment and don’t feel intimidated. You’re a potential customer and there’s no obligations for you to bid.
I hesitate to post to this thread because of the places it has gone or might yet go. However, I will write about both main topics in the thread.
The first reply to the OP, by @Morgan White may appear out of place, but I think many of us who spend (or volunteer) significant time here notice a pattern of newer members coming on, asking questions and then either disappearing or arguing. In the case of arguing, these new members might be either alt accounts of existing members who simply want to stir things up, or might be a reflection of modern, internet communication where folks expect something immediately and then go off on their way.
In the case of newer members disappearing after getting a question answered, it reminds me of two rather common experiences I have had in everyday life. One is when oncoming traffic is backed up because someone in that lane wants to make a left turn and I stop in my lane and wave to and allow the person who is waiting to make that left turn. I do this because I would appreciate it if others did it for me and also to keep the traffic moving in both directions. Most folks happily wave back to acknowledge the favor, but some people drive through and ignore me like I did nothing. It makes me wonder why they didn't wave. Alternatively, if I'm walking through the rain or on a windy, cold day and stop at the entrance of a building to hold the door open for someone behind me who also wants to get out of the elements, most times they will thank me, but some just go through like I am a doorman and leave me in their wake.
Do either of these scenarios hurt my feelings? No, but they make me wonder if the person on the receiving end was too busy or distracted and forgot to respond or if they believe everyone else is there to provide for them to take. In my opinion this point of view is where @Morgan White was posting from because we see a fair number of folks ask questions and then disappear without follow-up until they need something else and they post another question, all the while they do not help others in different threads or even acknowledge the help they received.
Okay, onto the coin in question. Given only the images in-hand, I don't like it as a DMPL by today's standards and, therefore, don't believe it would receive a CAC sticker. Yes, I know I am only seeing one set of images, but while the raised devices have contrast, or some cameo effect, I don't see the fields as being reflective or mirrored enough to have the coin meet today's definition of DMPL. Again, I know I am writing from one set of images and that I haven't seen the coin in person, but I've seen hundreds of thousands of images of coins (using all different technologies of image acquisition) and the fields on that coin look to have too much luster and too little mirror to achieve the DMPL standard of today. If you can see the coin in person and you know what a DMPL should look like in-hand then you would do well to examine the piece on your own.
You also mention the older holder (OGH) and how standards were tighter "back in the day". Many of us were active "back in the day" and I know at least myself and @MFeld have both been very active in the numismatic marketplace at least going back to the early 1990s when this holder would have been issued. I have noticed several things about the grading standards from that period of time vs. those of today that can be applied as loose, general principles to coins in those holders. One is that the requirement for DMPL on Morgan dollars was a little looser (in my opinion) when these OGHs were in use than it is today, which means that a coin with a DMPL designation from this era might be appropriately or conservatively grade yet still might not achieve today's DMPL definition. Such a coin is likely to fail CAC evaluation and, while many folks still ignore the market reality of CAC, the fact is that a CAC sticker on an OGH makes the coin (in general) somewhat more liquid and perhaps even more valuable. As per the CAC submission point raised by @MFeld, it might be that this coin was submitted multiple times and failed each time, or perhaps was never submitted at all.
Another thing to keep in mind is that grading standards can and do shift over time. Most folks think of this as "OGH=Conservative" when the reality is more complex. Again, in my experience and opinion, the grading at NGC and PCGS during this OGH period was more willing to accept coins with problems that would be called out today by the companies and those coins were silently net-graded down a little bit. This put more coins in holders and made the grading appear more conservative. This is not a hard and fast rule, but you have to keep it in mind. Along a similar line, methods of surface alteration by coin doctors constantly evolve and improve and some of these OGH coins would be rejected today for the alterations that they received, but at the time were not detectable. Again, this might not be the case with this coin, but you should be aware.
Lastly, while many OGH coins were kept in their holders because they had loving homes and then stayed in those holders because the holders themselves took on liquidity or value, others stayed in the OGH because they became "coffin coins". That is, the market determined the coin would never grade that high again, so those with knowledge left the coin in the holder and played up the OGH aspect for sales.
Good luck with the coin and good luck in the series.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I am having flashbacks to a PBM obsessed with finding cherries to send to CAC.
Go back and read what @MFeld and @tomb shared.
They are the gold standard.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
@TomB that was a good read. I appreciate that you took the time to write it. I read the entire post and I have to tell you that its all true. OGH coins can become coffin coins as you put it.
I purchased a dmpl in an
OGH before I knew better. It was a total loss. Some dealer purchased it for much less than I paid because it was not a dmpl and I didnt know any better.
Now I do. Mainly becasue of this forum.
When I purchase a coin alot of what I have learned here comes to mind.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7
Great summary, and exactly my point.
I realize I'm quoting a lot here so it's not quite replying to a single point, but alas, my response is related to everything that is written here, and it all comes down to experience. Regarding prices, I generally use price guides to get an idea of relative pricing (is a 64 worth just less than a 65 or a lot less? Is this date much more expensive than that date?) rather than absolutes. Then I look at auction price histories. When pricing is all over the place, that's a good sign that something else is at play. Is there a big spread in price to the next grade such that high end coins will sell for a significant premium because they're still much cheaper than the next grade? Are there qualities that make some coins much more desirable? As @TomB pointed out, from the photos, this coin doesn't look like an impressive DMPL if it is one at all at today's standard, and pricing history would likely show that mediocre DMPLs sell for much less than knock-out black and white coins.
All this is to say that sure, someone could go and opine whether this seems like a good buy or not, but that's still just one coin. If you really want to understand what you're purchasing, you need to look at a LOT of coins and ask questions about them to get a feel for what factors are at play. For instance, if you were asking questions about mirror depth and contrast, you'd learn about DMPLs in general, which would help you understand pricing a lot better. Whether one coin is nice or not ignores a lot of nuance, and nuance is the name of the game. This is not at all a rare coin, and the coin you've shown is nowhere near such a screaming deal that you'd be a fool to pass it up. Rather than jump right in, learn about what's out there and then go out and buy a coin. Patience and knowledge are key.
@TomB Thank you for your valuable insight. As I said previously, I will try to acknowledge other people's perspectives, as I agree it doesn't hurt to show someone you have read their commentary. I am a member of other forum groups on other topics where I have seen the same behavior, and my take on it is that just because a reader doesn't respond in short order to other posts doesn't mean the information wasn't useful or helpful, or that the person is ungrateful. To the contrary, when I have contributed to answering questions and providing opinions, I see it as a way of memorializing the information for all to benefit from, either for that OP or as it often is, other readers, and it gives me a great feeling that I've contributed information for a greater good, regardless of whether I ever hear from that person again. The OP was just the mechanism that kicks off that sharing of information, so they have fulfilled a part in the exchange just by asking a question.
@skier07 With that said, is there a period of time when graded DMPL coins begin to reach the current definition of what a DMPL is? For example, does it mean sometime in the 2000s the standard was aligned with what it is today?
I’m not @skier07 but…
When considering buying a PL or DMPL Morgan dollar, I wouldn’t concern myself with when the overall “standards” might have tightened up.
Because there hasn’t been any time period in which grading has been perfectly consistent.
I read a lot of comments about grading supposedly being tight/strict or loose/liberal during a given time period or at different coin shows, where there’s show-grading. But with thousands of coins graded each day, there will be a large quantity of anywhere from very low in quality to very high, no matter when or where the coins are graded.
What matters is the coins you’re considering buying. And if you’re thinking about when they were graded instead of how they compare to large quantities of others, your focus is in the wrong place.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I was going to write something similar to @MFeld above but he did it better than I would have anyway.
With regard to DMPL coins specifically, there are factors which will influence the price that are not related to the grade on the coin. Deep mirrors and cameo contrast will command premiums (sometimes large ones) no matter where the coin falls within a given grade. I’ve seen ultra deep coins sell for 3x typical auction results. Similarly, things like haze or discoloration will tend to cause a coin to sell for a lower price, even if the grade is solid.
As a newish member, I wanted to comment on this one from my perspective. I don't jump in and help in other threads, because I don't believe I am at that level to provide assistance if that makes sense, but I read a heck of a lot of them. I am of the mind that other newer members feel this way too. Unless you have been a long time collector and just haven't signed up for the forum until now.
Take your time.