The Six Obverse Dies for 1909-S Lincoln Cent
mr1931S
Posts: 6,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
Images courtesy of anco, Florence, Alabama 35630. Copyright 1973.
The six dies used for 1909-S Lincoln Cent are characterized by the position and tilt of the 's', relative to the date:
Die 1- high left, 's' tilts right a great deal.
Die 2- high right.
Die 3-high right, farther right than 2.
Die 4-medium high right, 's' tilts right.
Die 5-low, far right.
Die 6-far low, far right.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
5
Comments
Isn't one of the mintmarks a carryover from the 1909-S VDB?
Pete
Four of the six obverse dies used to make 1909-S Lincoln Cents without V.D.B. were used to make 1909-S cents with V.D.B. The four obverse dies used to make 1909-S with V.D.B. are:
①
②
④
⑤
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
So which of these is RPM#1 and which is RPM#2? I assume from your post above that the RPMs are dies 3 and 6, as they are the only ones not used with the VDB reverse.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
You will find that all 1909-S V.D.B.s come from four of the obverse dies seen above. Only Die 3 and Die 6 were not used to make 1909-S cents without V.D.B. Here's an image of all four 1909-S obverses for 1909-S V.D.B. I don't know who to credit for this set of images with the helpful reference lines and comments but far as I know it is accurate and can be used with high confidence to identify genuine 1909-S V.D.B.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Here's images of my 1909-S V.D.B. As one can see, it matches ⑤, as seen in the OP.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Go ahead and post images of the RPM's here and let's take a look at 'em.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Mind if I just give links to coppercoins?
RPM#1, S/S repunched northeast
RPM#2, S over horizontal S
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Harsche.
don't be so harsh on him
but i do wonder about the remaining 2 of 6 and these 2 RPM
[personally, i'd like to find an eds of S/h-S]
What are you wondering about when you say you wonder about "the remaining 2 of 6?"
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I find it interesting that the San Francisco mint managed to make such a nice variety of mint mark placement and the 2 RPMs using the single S punch that they used from 1909 through 1915, and then starting in 1916 used the same punch for the rest of wheat Lincolns from that mint.
I suspect that gobs of 1916-S Lincolns suffered having their mintmark shaved off to make counterfeit SVDBs. Indeed, this date in higher (VF or better) grades is not seen in dealer inventories as often as it should despite having an original mintage of 22.51 million pieces.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
1909S-1MM-001 S/S NORTHEAST appears to me to have the repunched 's' over the 's' from die ②.
Anyone else seeing that? Die obverse ② was used for 1909-S with V.D.B. and 1909-S without V.D.B. In my opinion, die ② is the "lamest" of the six obverse dies used to make 1909-S Lincoln cents so it doesn't surprise me that a "fix" of it was eventually made by repunching the 's'.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
MM's were punched in the die at Philly. Used dies didn't go back to Philly to have the MM repunched.
What I think happened is that die ② was used to make a relative few 1909-S V.D.B.s and then taken out of service because mint officials were not happy with what they were seeing. Later it returned to service to make some 1909-S without V.D.B. and even later than that a fresh 's' was punched over the lame 's' to make more 1909-S without V.D.B. in order to get more service from die ②.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Again, the MM was punched at Philly, no one was shipping dies back to Philly to have the MM repunched.
You can't hide the harsche truth:
I have managed to assemble a set of early 's' Lincolns (1909-1915) with what I believe to be the lowest and farthest right 's' position for that year. I was inspired to do this by observing the "far outness" of the 's' from 1909-S die ⑥
. Only one date from 1909 to 1915 has eluded me in this respect and I suspect truly "farout 's' " does not exist for this one date like it does for the other years from 1909-1915.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Mr. Bert Harsche, numismatic pioneer, produced the earliest work, far as I know, on identifying obverse die varieties for 1909-S Lincoln cents. His work has stood the test of time. I challenge anyone reading this thread to show earlier (before 1973) findings about the various obverse die varieties of 1909-S cents with or without V.D.B. Harsche identified three of the four known obverse dies used to make 1909-S V.D.B. cents. He never did see an example of what we now know to be the 4th one by the time his 5th edition or 6th, and last, edition of Detecting Altered Coins was published. Three of the four obverses used for 1909-S V.D.B. are relatively common and one, the one Harsche never saw, is very scarce, some would say "rare."
A few months, I attempted to contact Mr. Harsche so that I could get him to sign his name to either or both of my copies of "Detecting Altered Coins." I found then that Mr. Harsche passed away a few years earlier. I expressed my condolences through the coin club in Bismark, North Dakota that Mr. Harsche was part of and let them know that if it wasn't for my reading about 1909-S cents in "Harsche"
i would probably still be the proud owner of an old school counterfeit 1909-S V.D.B. that had been certified as authentic by PCGS. Yes, my first 1909-S V.D.B. was a counterfeit made well enough to get by the graders of our host here.
Indeed, you can't hide the Harsche truth.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
And I'm still looking for that one year of "farout 's'" that has eluded me. But there will be no reveal here of what that year is other than it's one of the years from 1910 -1915. It's entirely possible that farout 's' simply does not exist for this one year but I'm looking for it anyway.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
If I get just one request here for it, I will publish the images of my counterfeit 1909-S V.D.B. with comments, my comments, on what to look for so that no one here paying attention will end up with a similarly made counterfeit S V.D.B. in their collection. I actually wish I still had the counterfeit piece in my collection but I had to turn it in to get an authentic replacement (pictured here, #44090046) for it.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Well, the die was fixed somewhere. Maybe you should start a thread about the RPM 1909-S cents?
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
this has to be a troll
Still waiting, Morrisine, on a response to my question for you, "What are you wondering about when you say you wonder about "the remaining 2 of 6?"
I might be able to clear things up for you.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
either troll or not i don't want to answer
i don't want to enter the rpm version of whispering vdb
>
All of this is nonsense. There are no RPMs known on the 1909-S VDB. Maybe some or all of the four obverses known for the issue were reused later and paired with the non-VDB reverse, but the two obverse dies with an RPM are not among them. Those dies came from Philadelphia with the mintmarks already punched, they were not used and reworked / repunched after striking coins.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Revisionist history. This is not even close to the harsche truth.
Perhaps you can refresh your memory when the movie comes out.
All of this is nonsense. There are no RPMs known on the 1909-S VDB. Maybe some or all of the four obverses known for the issue were reused later and paired with the non-VDB reverse, but the two obverse dies with an RPM are not among them. Those dies came from Philadelphia with the mintmarks already punched, they were not used and reworked / repunched after striking coins.
Are you reading-with-understanding challenged? Show me where I said there are RPM's for the 1909-S V.D.B. That's right, I never said there are RPMs for 1909-S V.D.B. Since you seem to know a lot about the RPMs for 1909-S without V.D.B. why not start a thread about them instead of trying to hijack this one?
Mod, why is disruption like we are seeing here allowed to occur? Please advise.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Lacunae, that’s the problem. Lacunae.
(But, thanks I need those MM site pics today.)
None of us was in San Francisco or Philadelphia in 1909 to see exactly what was going on with the making of the then new Lincoln pennies of 1909. Any number of topics, not just numismatics, has it's share of information out there that is inaccurate. I acknowledge that I could be mistaken, have some wrong ideas or misimpressions about how things go down at the mints. Coin collecting is just a hobby. Nobody is going to die if a bit of misinformation finds its way into the hobby we all love. Tactfully done correction is a lost art, at least around here, it seems.
I started this thread mainly to share some of the findings of numismatic pioneer Mr. Bert Harsche not to get into a pissing match about RPMs. Want to discuss RPMs? Do it in another thread. Don't like what I write don't read it. My advice is to stay out of threads like this and avoid commenting if all you have to offer is showing the world how clever you think you are.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Interesting, had not thought about where they were getting the S that was not quite right.
Great thread, I'm quite the fan of early Lincolns. Until Tom DeLorey's new book arrives, my current favorite is the Rabbit Hole 1909 cent.
Roger B. wishes to contribute the following document originally generated by the U.S. Mint to record approximate die lives for U.S. Cent dies used in San Francisco in 1909. His commentary precedes it.
For clarity sake, the top numbers are the Indian Cent obverse and reverse dies used to begin cent production, and are not relevant to the topic of the thread.
The next grouping of die numbers on the right side center only are the ten "With VDB" reverse dies received at SF, of which only five were used.
The next grouping of die numbers on the lower left represent all 1909 Lincoln obverses received at SF in 1909. The lower right numbers are the "No VDB" reverse dies received. If we assume that the first FIVE obverses were used with the five "With VDB" reverse dies, you will see that their gross mintages (which include a small percentage of rejects later removed during routine inspection) are much higher than the gross mintages of the "With VDB" reverses. This IMPLIES that more than one of these five obverses were logically used to strike 1909 "No VDB" coins until they wore out.
Why "FIVE" obverses when only four are known to Authenticators? The logical explanation is that two of the five have the mint mark in the same position, and are mistaken for each other and counted together. The same thing happened with 1914-D obverses. Likewise, my new book on the Cents of 1922 proves that the traditional 1922-D "Die Pair #1" (with the jogging die crack reverse) is actually two different but virtually identical obverses paired with the same jogging die crack reverse. The earlier of the two obverses is now part of "Die Pair #Zero."
If by chance the two 1909-S VDB obverse were carried over into the "No VDB" striking period, everybody would say that only one 1909-S VDB obverse was used with the "No VDB" reverses. The dies need to be studied closer for other distinguishing marks BESIDES mint mark position, such as die scratches, polishing marks, etc.
TD
.
The accompanying table shows one cent die use at the San Francisco Mint for CY 1909.
The top dies, #21-30 both obv and rev, are for Indian cents. These total 310,790 pieces struck and account for all 309,000 delivered. The excess being defective or excess pieces.
The middle section, reverse dies # 248-252, show VDB reverse dies totaling 486,480 pieces struck and account for all 484,000 S-VDB cents delivered.
The lower section shows all 1909-S obverse dies used for all version of the Lincoln cent, and all non-VDB reverse dies. If the first four Lincoln obverse dies, #199 through #202, are assumed to have been paired with the five VDB reverse dies, we find that they account for 752,170 pieces which is 265,690 greater than total S-VDB production.
There is little to indicate how these obverse dies were paired with VDB reverses, although it is likely that obv #201 and rev #252 were used together since both struck 81,000 coins. It is also possible that obverse dies were not used in numerical order or that a single VDB reverse might share more than one obverse.
RWB
.
thanks for that and thanks to rwb for the work and sharing
Good stuff. Thank you, Roger Burdette and Tom Delorey.
I wonder if Artificial Intelligence Scanning Technology (AIST) could be used on high grade 1909-S V.D.B.s to help unravel the "Is there a 5th obverse die for 1909-S V.D.B.?" mystery.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
has to be
Twenty working obverse dies in service to make 1909-S Lincoln cents. Average of three working dies available for each 's' position is what I'm seeing. The math is: (6x3) regulars+2 RPMs=20.
Note how the six different 's' placements were done in a systematic manner. Imagine If all the 's's for the six 's' positions were on one coin. One could draw a line from the center of ① to the center of ③ that would be almost parallel to a lower line drawn from the center of ④ to the center of ⑥.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
That 20 obverse dies used figure includes the two Indian Head obverses. Also we don't know how many of the 1909-S obverses used to make 1909-SVDB coins were also used to make 1909-S Lincolns.
Somebody could have fun shooting hundreds of 1909-SVDB and 1909-S Lincolns in the exact same enlargement and then overlapping them using the date as the common denominator just to see how many position there really are.
Lol, when I was reading his comments, and before I scrolled down, I was thinking of this meme.
I would be very interested in seeing the pictures of a known counterfeit, especially one good enough to get slabbed.
I think that my 1909-SVDB is OP #1 with tilted S:
And I think that my 1909-S is OP #6
I'm glad I did make the request to have those posted here. Got me to thinkin'. Usually, that's a good thing. I'm not so sure that one of the RPMs is really an 's' over a horizontal 's' though.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
You tried to trick people into talking about Harsche without mentioning his name. I guess you thought you were being clever.
feel free to question a clear picture. now if we can quit treating a 50 year old text like a bible. you've said yourself he's made mistakes on 3 vs 4 obverse s-vdb dies. (and now it's 5!)
Don’t be too Harsche on him.
Lovely pieces. Thanks for posting them here.
①1909-S V.D.B.
⑥1909-S
① was used for 1909-S with V.D.B. & also for 1909-S without V.D.B. ⑥ was used for 1909-S without V.D.B. only.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.