@dcarr said:
I have yet to read a single post from you where you stated that what JPM did was wrong.
A lot of excuses for their actions have been put forth by you.
But can you admit that what JPM did was wrong/unethical/illegal ?
If you're asking me if the trades done by underlings were wrong, that's not a debate.
The larger issue is whether it was JPM policy to do that (it wasn't) and whether the bank itself was "manipulating" the price of silver from reaching it's FMV which according to some here, without JPM doing bad things, it would be $150 an ounce.
If JPM is so nefarious, how come they lost $6 BB on the CDS "Whale" issue ? Maybe firms and traders just get things wrong, don't manipulate things, and the markets bail them out or they get it right -- or wrong -- with actions that don't amount to a conspiracy to manipulate prices set by dozens of firms and thousands of traders an hour.
@derryb said:
JPM is sitting on a whole lot of real silver. I'm sure their end game plans are for a very high spot price. But, until then why not make more profit, without touching the "stack," by creating volatility?
But that silver doesn't belong to JPM, it is custodian accounts for others. The regulators will NOT let them hold any large amounts of non-marketable assets as capital. What do you think all the screaming about Basel III is all about ???
@dcarr said:
I have yet to read a single post from you where you stated that what JPM did was wrong.
A lot of excuses for their actions have been put forth by you.
But can you admit that what JPM did was wrong/unethical/illegal ?
If you're asking me if the trades done by underlings were wrong, that's not a debate.
The larger issue is whether it was JPM policy to do that (it wasn't) and whether the bank itself was "manipulating" the price of silver from reaching it's FMV which according to some here, without JPM doing bad things, it would be $150 an ounce.
If JPM is so nefarious, how come they lost $6 BB on the CDS "Whale" issue ? Maybe firms and traders just get things wrong, don't manipulate things, and the markets bail them out or they get it right -- or wrong -- with actions that don't amount to a conspiracy to manipulate prices set by dozens of firms and thousands of traders an hour.
Can you admit that is possible, even likely ?
.
Always more and more trivialization of the affair, and not a shred of contrition.
This is not a good look for bankers in general.
What JPM did as a company was illegal and unethical. When, and what, did JPM management know about this ?
They made no offer of restitution until forced (fined) to do so.
If JPM is so nefarious, how come they lost $6 BB on the CDS "Whale" issue ? Maybe firms and traders just get things wrong, don't manipulate things, and the markets bail them out or they get it right -- or wrong -- with actions that don't amount to a conspiracy to manipulate prices set by dozens of firms and thousands of traders an hour.
Can you admit that is possible, even likely ?
Per the $6BB CDS loss, JPMorgan Chase Chairman and CEO Jamie Dimon said the strategy was "flawed, complex, poorly reviewed, poorly executed, and poorly monitored" - direct quote. Of course JPM does not have a policy to break the law to make money. It turned out that JPMorgan traders were shorting some credit default index and making huge trades. Why, for their division profit and I'll assume their yearly bonus. They were supposed to hedge loan positions made to firms. When you short positions you generate cash and/or profit when they expire un-execised.
JPM's own investigation noted:
The Firm did not ensure that the controls and oversight were commensurately with the increased complexity and risks of certain CIO activities
CIO risk management was ineffective in dealing with synthetic credit portfolio
Yes failure to monitor was key, but a firm is responsible for the actions of its employees and that is why a system of controls must be in place. JPM gets no free pass because they were negligent in supervising trader activities.
@derryb said:
JPM is sitting on a whole lot of real silver. I'm sure their end game plans are for a very high spot price. But, until then why not make more profit, without touching the "stack," by creating volatility?
But that silver doesn't belong to JPM, it is custodian accounts for others. The regulators will NOT let them hold any large amounts of non-marketable assets as capital. What do you think all the screaming about Basel III is all about ???
JPM is holding 750 million ounces of silver in its vaults. How much of that is leased out to ETFs and other parties and how many claims there are on the same silver remains unknown.
The bottom line is this: POSSESSION IS NINE TENTHS OF THE LAW, and JPM has possession of 740 million ounces.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
Yes failure to monitor was key, but a firm is responsible for the actions of its employees and that is why a system of >controls must be in place. JPM gets no free pass because they were negligent in supervising trader activities.
My point is that nothing was done that was criminal or illegal and the trade COULD have made Big $$$ in which case some here would have said it was manipulated.
Same thing with the silver trades, though the odds there were more in JPM's favor.
BTW, some of the people on the wrong side of JPM's silver traders were hedge funds that had shorted silver. I know, because one of the guys in our department left the bank to join them a few years after I left. They made a fortune shorting silver in 2011 and 2012 but kept it on too long.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
Yes failure to monitor was key, but a firm is responsible for the actions of its employees and that is why a system of >controls must be in place. JPM gets no free pass because they were negligent in supervising trader activities.
My point is that nothing was done that was criminal or illegal and the trade COULD have made Big $$$ in which case some here would have said it was manipulated.
Same thing with the silver trades, though the odds there were more in JPM's favor.
Well the PM and CDS scenarios are like comparing apples with oranges, and not the same thing. BTW you first brought up the CDS example to support your argument that JPM did not manipulate silver trading and prices. but just made bad trades. Agree CDS was not a trading manipulation case or illegal, but just pure greed to make profits using the firm's capital. But spoofing silver futures contracts is illegal and manipulative and did effect prices, plain and simple.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
Agree CDS was not a trading manipulation case or illegal, but just pure greed to make profits using the firm's >capital. But spoofing silver futures contracts is illegal and manipulative and did effect prices, plain and simple.
The CDS trade was dumb and as JD said, not well thought out. I don't think it had anything to do with greed on the part of JPM -- maybe the guy who executed it. Clearly, their VAR number was stale coming out of London.
Spoofing does not effect any long-term equilibrium price of any asset, and probably not in the short or intermediate term, either. Now if you are talking about affecting day traders, sure.
It's funny that the GSEs and HUD -- the main causes of the 2008 GFC -- escaped financial scrutiny by the media and politicians. This is why the focus of the media and the government regulator in the spoofing case are so tranparent: an attempt to nail a bank (or hedge fund) while looking the other way at REAL and LONG-LASTING financial damage created by government policies and agencies.
Getting back to gold.... ....price-action is bullish to me last few days, hanging around $4,000.....better to drop to $3,600 and clear out weak-hands but if we stay here for a few months, RSIs return to normal.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
Agree CDS was not a trading manipulation case or illegal, but just pure greed to make profits using the firm's >capital. But spoofing silver futures contracts is illegal and manipulative and did effect prices, plain and simple.
The CDS trade was dumb and as JD said, not well thought out. I don't think it had anything to do with greed on the part of JPM -- maybe the guy who executed it. Clearly, their VAR number was stale coming out of London.
Spoofing does not effect any long-term equilibrium price of any asset, and probably not in the short or intermediate term, either. Now if you are talking about affecting day traders, sure.
It's funny that the GSEs and HUD -- the main causes of the 2008 GFC -- escaped financial scrutiny by the media and politicians. This is why the focus of the media and the government regulator in the spoofing case are so tranparent: an attempt to nail a bank (or hedge fund) while looking the other way at REAL and LONG-LASTING financial damage created by government policies and agencies.
.
"Spoofing" can affect prices for longer than you apparently think.
If it causes any stop-loss orders to be triggered, that can cause a cascading change in the price.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that the main purpose of the spoofing was to trigger standing stop-loss orders.
JPM committed fraud. That has clearly been established. It is also no surprise to me that people associated with JPM always try and spin it differently.
@dcarr said:
"Spoofing" can affect prices for longer than you apparently think.
If it causes any stop-loss orders to be triggered, that can cause a cascading change in the price.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that the main purpose of the spoofing was to trigger standing stop-loss >orders. JPM committed fraud. That has clearly been established. It is also no surprise to me that people associated >with JPM always try and spin it differently.
JPM did not commit fraud -- a few individuals did. The Supreme Court has already weighed in on this with a 9-0 rebuke of MSNBC's Andrew Weissman, a DOJ lifer, who put Arthur Andersen out of business for no good reason at all. He too claimed that AA committed "fraud" even though 99.99% of the people working there were innocent.
Any cascading of price indicates weak hands and wouldn't affect any bull market move.
JPM did not commit fraud -- a few individuals did. The Supreme Court has already weighed in on this with a 9-0 rebuke of MSNBC's Andrew Weissman, a DOJ lifer, who put Arthur Andersen out of business for no good reason at all. He too claimed that AA committed "fraud" even though 99.99% of the people working there were innocent.
Not so sure the DOJ would agree with you on this - from their website below. Not aware of the AA facts, but Bankers Trust, at 1 time the largest Trust Bank in America, was charged with fraud since there was an ongoing fraudulent scheme by some senior managers to take customer funds due for escheatment into P&L. Bankers was going to lose their Trust fiduciary powers, i.e. could not serve as Trustee to the largest institutions & HNW individuals in the US, and as such was bought/sold out to Deutsche Bank.
In September 2020, JPMorgan admitted to committing wire fraud in connection with: (1) unlawful trading in the markets for precious metals futures contracts; and (2) unlawful trading in the markets for U.S. Treasury futures contracts and in the secondary (cash) market for U.S. Treasury notes and bonds. JPMorgan entered into a three-year deferred prosecution agreement through which it paid more than $920 million in a criminal monetary penalty, criminal disgorgement, and victim compensation, with parallel resolutions by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) and the Securities Exchange Commission announced on the same day.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
Agree CDS was not a trading manipulation case or illegal, but just pure greed to make profits using the firm's >capital. But spoofing silver futures contracts is illegal and manipulative and did effect prices, plain and simple.
The CDS trade was dumb and as JD said, not well thought out. I don't think it had anything to do with greed on the part of JPM -- maybe the guy who executed it. Clearly, their VAR number was stale coming out of London.
Spoofing does not effect any long-term equilibrium price of any asset, and probably not in the short or intermediate term, either. Now if you are talking about affecting day traders, sure.
It's funny that the GSEs and HUD -- the main causes of the 2008 GFC -- escaped financial scrutiny by the media and politicians. This is why the focus of the media and the government regulator in the spoofing case are so tranparent: an attempt to nail a bank (or hedge fund) while looking the other way at REAL and LONG-LASTING financial damage created by government policies and agencies.
.
"Spoofing" can affect prices for longer than you apparently think.
If it causes any stop-loss orders to be triggered, that can cause a cascading change in the price.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that the main purpose of the spoofing was to trigger standing stop-loss orders.
.
It doesn't appear to me that you understand spoofing.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
Agree CDS was not a trading manipulation case or illegal, but just pure greed to make profits using the firm's >capital. But spoofing silver futures contracts is illegal and manipulative and did effect prices, plain and simple.
The CDS trade was dumb and as JD said, not well thought out. I don't think it had anything to do with greed on the part of JPM -- maybe the guy who executed it. Clearly, their VAR number was stale coming out of London.
Spoofing does not effect any long-term equilibrium price of any asset, and probably not in the short or intermediate term, either. Now if you are talking about affecting day traders, sure.
It's funny that the GSEs and HUD -- the main causes of the 2008 GFC -- escaped financial scrutiny by the media and politicians. This is why the focus of the media and the government regulator in the spoofing case are so tranparent: an attempt to nail a bank (or hedge fund) while looking the other way at REAL and LONG-LASTING financial damage created by government policies and agencies.
.
"Spoofing" can affect prices for longer than you apparently think.
If it causes any stop-loss orders to be triggered, that can cause a cascading change in the price.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that the main purpose of the spoofing was to trigger standing stop-loss orders.
.
It doesn't appear to me that you understand spoofing.
with the futures exchanges spoofing is designed to convince holders to think prices are dropping, so they sell driving the price down. No need to spoof it up, that is the default mode with PMs.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
Agree CDS was not a trading manipulation case or illegal, but just pure greed to make profits using the firm's >capital. But spoofing silver futures contracts is illegal and manipulative and did effect prices, plain and simple.
The CDS trade was dumb and as JD said, not well thought out. I don't think it had anything to do with greed on the part of JPM -- maybe the guy who executed it. Clearly, their VAR number was stale coming out of London.
Spoofing does not effect any long-term equilibrium price of any asset, and probably not in the short or intermediate term, either. Now if you are talking about affecting day traders, sure.
It's funny that the GSEs and HUD -- the main causes of the 2008 GFC -- escaped financial scrutiny by the media and politicians. This is why the focus of the media and the government regulator in the spoofing case are so tranparent: an attempt to nail a bank (or hedge fund) while looking the other way at REAL and LONG-LASTING financial damage created by government policies and agencies.
.
"Spoofing" can affect prices for longer than you apparently think.
If it causes any stop-loss orders to be triggered, that can cause a cascading change in the price.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that the main purpose of the spoofing was to trigger standing stop-loss orders.
.
It doesn't appear to me that you understand spoofing.
.
You are thinking of "spoofing" in very limited terms.
There is more to it than seen on the surface.
Interesting chart, where does all those inflows come from if every traditional investment type is up? During Covid it was the Fed/Govt injecting money into the system but now, over 5 trillion in 2 years, Debt and crypto?
Have to agree with GoldFinger1969 here. JPM is the trustee for SLV silver bullion holdings and manages part of the LBMA network of vaults in London. Assuming the SLV holdings are in the vault they also manage. They have to report monthly to the LBMA their holdings and to SLV also. Now is it all there? Who knows.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
Have to agree with GoldFinger1969 here. JPM is the trustee for SLV silver bullion holdings and manages part of the LBMA network of vaults in London. Assuming the SLV holdings are in the vault they also manage. They have to report monthly to the LBMA their holdings and to SLV also. Now is it all there? Who knows.
Comments
How many of those "investors" pumped-and-dumped and posted lies and nonsense in order to drive the price up (or down) on social media ?
Those traded by JPM didn't affect the fundamental direction of PMs or gold. It's nonsense.
Summary ?
Dick Fuld lost $700 MM in stock but ultimately it was a question of leverage that did them in.
If you're asking me if the trades done by underlings were wrong, that's not a debate.
The larger issue is whether it was JPM policy to do that (it wasn't) and whether the bank itself was "manipulating" the price of silver from reaching it's FMV which according to some here, without JPM doing bad things, it would be $150 an ounce.
If JPM is so nefarious, how come they lost $6 BB on the CDS "Whale" issue ? Maybe firms and traders just get things wrong, don't manipulate things, and the markets bail them out or they get it right -- or wrong -- with actions that don't amount to a conspiracy to manipulate prices set by dozens of firms and thousands of traders an hour.
Can you admit that is possible, even likely ?
But that silver doesn't belong to JPM, it is custodian accounts for others. The regulators will NOT let them hold any large amounts of non-marketable assets as capital. What do you think all the screaming about Basel III is all about ???
.
Always more and more trivialization of the affair, and not a shred of contrition.
This is not a good look for bankers in general.
What JPM did as a company was illegal and unethical. When, and what, did JPM management know about this ?
They made no offer of restitution until forced (fined) to do so.
.
Per the $6BB CDS loss, JPMorgan Chase Chairman and CEO Jamie Dimon said the strategy was "flawed, complex, poorly reviewed, poorly executed, and poorly monitored" - direct quote. Of course JPM does not have a policy to break the law to make money. It turned out that JPMorgan traders were shorting some credit default index and making huge trades. Why, for their division profit and I'll assume their yearly bonus. They were supposed to hedge loan positions made to firms. When you short positions you generate cash and/or profit when they expire un-execised.
JPM's own investigation noted:
Yes failure to monitor was key, but a firm is responsible for the actions of its employees and that is why a system of controls must be in place. JPM gets no free pass because they were negligent in supervising trader activities.
JPM is holding 750 million ounces of silver in its vaults. How much of that is leased out to ETFs and other parties and how many claims there are on the same silver remains unknown.
The bottom line is this: POSSESSION IS NINE TENTHS OF THE LAW, and JPM has possession of 740 million ounces.
The East Is Buying Gold. The West Is Buying Time.
God bless JPM. I banked there for years. It's a shame they don't have branches here in The Commonwealth. RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
My point is that nothing was done that was criminal or illegal and the trade COULD have made Big $$$ in which case some here would have said it was manipulated.
Same thing with the silver trades, though the odds there were more in JPM's favor.
BTW, some of the people on the wrong side of JPM's silver traders were hedge funds that had shorted silver. I know, because one of the guys in our department left the bank to join them a few years after I left. They made a fortune shorting silver in 2011 and 2012 but kept it on too long.
Please don't tell me you honestly think JPM holds $35 billion in silver as part of their capital ?
Jamie Dimon would be perp-walked by the Fed and BIS if that were true.
Well the PM and CDS scenarios are like comparing apples with oranges, and not the same thing. BTW you first brought up the CDS example to support your argument that JPM did not manipulate silver trading and prices. but just made bad trades. Agree CDS was not a trading manipulation case or illegal, but just pure greed to make profits using the firm's capital. But spoofing silver futures contracts is illegal and manipulative and did effect prices, plain and simple.
The CDS trade was dumb and as JD said, not well thought out. I don't think it had anything to do with greed on the part of JPM -- maybe the guy who executed it. Clearly, their VAR number was stale coming out of London.
Spoofing does not effect any long-term equilibrium price of any asset, and probably not in the short or intermediate term, either. Now if you are talking about affecting day traders, sure.
It's funny that the GSEs and HUD -- the main causes of the 2008 GFC -- escaped financial scrutiny by the media and politicians. This is why the focus of the media and the government regulator in the spoofing case are so tranparent: an attempt to nail a bank (or hedge fund) while looking the other way at REAL and LONG-LASTING financial damage created by government policies and agencies.
Getting back to gold....
....price-action is bullish to me last few days, hanging around $4,000.....better to drop to $3,600 and clear out weak-hands but if we stay here for a few months, RSIs return to normal.
.
"Spoofing" can affect prices for longer than you apparently think.
If it causes any stop-loss orders to be triggered, that can cause a cascading change in the price.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that the main purpose of the spoofing was to trigger standing stop-loss orders.
JPM committed fraud. That has clearly been established. It is also no surprise to me that people associated with JPM always try and spin it differently.
.
JPM did not commit fraud -- a few individuals did. The Supreme Court has already weighed in on this with a 9-0 rebuke of MSNBC's Andrew Weissman, a DOJ lifer, who put Arthur Andersen out of business for no good reason at all. He too claimed that AA committed "fraud" even though 99.99% of the people working there were innocent.
Any cascading of price indicates weak hands and wouldn't affect any bull market move.
I am not associated with JPM.
Not so sure the DOJ would agree with you on this - from their website below. Not aware of the AA facts, but Bankers Trust, at 1 time the largest Trust Bank in America, was charged with fraud since there was an ongoing fraudulent scheme by some senior managers to take customer funds due for escheatment into P&L. Bankers was going to lose their Trust fiduciary powers, i.e. could not serve as Trustee to the largest institutions & HNW individuals in the US, and as such was bought/sold out to Deutsche Bank.
In September 2020, JPMorgan admitted to committing wire fraud in connection with: (1) unlawful trading in the markets for precious metals futures contracts; and (2) unlawful trading in the markets for U.S. Treasury futures contracts and in the secondary (cash) market for U.S. Treasury notes and bonds. JPMorgan entered into a three-year deferred prosecution agreement through which it paid more than $920 million in a criminal monetary penalty, criminal disgorgement, and victim compensation, with parallel resolutions by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) and the Securities Exchange Commission announced on the same day.
they likely simply assign "ownership" to the multiple parties leasing it.
The East Is Buying Gold. The West Is Buying Time.
It doesn't appear to me that you understand spoofing.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
with the futures exchanges spoofing is designed to convince holders to think prices are dropping, so they sell driving the price down. No need to spoof it up, that is the default mode with PMs.
The East Is Buying Gold. The West Is Buying Time.
.
You are thinking of "spoofing" in very limited terms.
There is more to it than seen on the surface.
.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Interesting chart, where does all those inflows come from if every traditional investment type is up? During Covid it was the Fed/Govt injecting money into the system but now, over 5 trillion in 2 years, Debt and crypto?
They don't own the silver, end of story.
When they help buy silver for clients, are they also "assigning ownership" to them ?
Have to agree with GoldFinger1969 here. JPM is the trustee for SLV silver bullion holdings and manages part of the LBMA network of vaults in London. Assuming the SLV holdings are in the vault they also manage. They have to report monthly to the LBMA their holdings and to SLV also. Now is it all there? Who knows.
.
Do they lease any of the silver that they hold ?
.