Researching auction histories and provenances?
Seraph21
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Hi all, How do all of you do research for your coins for provenances or auction histories. I know that I can look up records for "recent" (up to late 2000s) auctions on stacks, heritage, goldberg, etc. But what about older auctions of coins, especially if they've been regraded, cracked out, crossover'd? Same for what about histories for rare coins (say R6+) prior to the rise of TPGs.
I know Stacks' Bowers offers PDFs of their auction catalogs up to the 1940s, but the images are usually compressed to heck for the B/W images and plates. Heritage has much records dating to the 90's but without images, it's not super useful.
Going to NNP for catalogs is the same issue with the PDFs.
Lastly, without going through a thousand catalogs, it's impossible to find anything, as there's no search feature anywhere for these records.
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This may be a bit of a Darkhorse answer, but I've had a lot of luck lately (after I trained it) with AI and auction results. Essentially, using chat GPT I've been able to scrape websites like Heritage and Stacks for results. Heritage has a major problem with past lots being in proper categories and this method eliminates some of that headache.
Carthago delenda est
Can be difficult, most times the information is lost, and waiting for a cataloger to rediscover it when researching. One resource that you didn't yet mention is experienced people in the industry. There are many who work in the business who have photographic memories, and can recall specific coins they have handled decades ago. If the coin is important enough to be known, I would ask specialists that may have inside knowledge or first hand experience with the coin.
Here is a fun one, I was perusing a Stack's catalog from 1954 and recognized a coin that my good friend had recently purchased. I made the connection, confirmed, and posted it in his thread. It is satisfying and often rewarding to reconnect important pedigrees.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1101456/well-i-wasnt-expecting-that-in-a-grade-i-could-afford-a-new-cbh-for-the-group-video-added#latest
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Very cool, that's basically what I've been wanting to do. Though it would seem onerous to ask about all of my coins. Your image is super crisp, I imagine you had access to the physical catalog rather than the digital pdfs from stack's archives.
I think specialization is key. Focusing on one collecting area helps you to learn about the key players in that area, both dealers and collectors. With that in mind, I would suggest -
- Acquiring physical copies of auction catalogs of the major collections in your area of interest. For example, as a collector of colonial era coins, I find the Ford auction catalogs invaluable. Stack's series of sales of the John J. Ford’s collection contained over 11,000 coins, tokens, medals and other numismatic items covering all aspects of American numismatics - except regularly issued federal US coinage.
- Identifying and working with the major dealers who specialize in your collecting area of interest. They can help you determine a coin's history and they may have previously worked with PCGS to establish provenance on coins they've sold.
But, as you noted, going thru a thousand catalogs is unrealistic. So, again, specialized focus should help you.
This is more for coins I already own. My current area of focus is on Dimes, and 10c Patterns. For these they can be scattered all over the place.
An example, I'm trying to find if there's any history for Blay's 1905-O (not micro) 10C, other than from the GC auction that I acquired it from. There's also the 1999 Heritage appearance, but It must be older than that.
Look up the certification number on the PCGS Cert Verification page. You probably already have, but I thought I'd throw it out there. I usually start there.
Does CG have any history of the coin? Did Blay make any notes about where, when, and from whom it was acquired? What dealers did Blay often work with? Who are the dealers that specialize in patterns?
Just some thoughts and ideas...Good luck!
Try The Numismatic Detective Agency.
https://numismaticdetectives.com/
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Can you share more about how you are using chatGPT? Prompts?
I've been using chatGPT for the better part of a year in my research. Knowing how to prompt is the biggest battle and then training it for more accurate results. A good example is I had a fairly significant error that was a hard find in the Heritage archive. I fed chatGPT an image of the slab and a description of the error and had it scrape HA and Stacks for results that matched the description and matched visually.
Carthago delenda est
Thanks! I'm still learning ways to use chatGPT (old dog, new trick).
@MidLifeCrisis the cert verification page is usually my first stop, then there's a separate rabbit hole when that minimal or no histories listed there. For notes from Blay, I wouldn't even know where to start or look for that.
For patterns, any ideas where i can find info on those kinds of dealers/experts?
@edwardjulio Yes, I've also looked at their services, but at $200 an hour, that's quite alot if i want to look up my whole collection. Part of the fun is trying to find it yourself as well.
As for the reason, I'm building a private website for my collection, and I would like to get as much info on each of my coins as possible. Mostly for fun, and a presentation of my own photography (if anyone's checked out my other threads)
GC may have additional information about your coin that was not included in the auction listing. There may have been other Blay coins in the same GC auction for which they listed the provenance. If so, you could get an idea of where yours could have been purchased. Seems like a long shot, but you could get lucky.
A Google search for US pattern coin dealers resulted in a few you could check out. Also, while not a dealer, I thought this was interesting...and it has a few 10c patterns.
https://hbrf.org/coin-collection/6000s/
maybe i can @ianrussell to know if they do any research on their end, but they do so many auctions each week. Though the original blay set might be special.
Regardless, this is more a general question on finding specific coins in older auction records.
I have a set of Romes Prices Realized, covering results starting in 1972, which became Krause Auction Prices Realized in the early 1980's. They were last issued in 2002 covering 2001 results.
They can be useful as a starting point directory to telling which catalog to check, although there are many errors along with various and sometimes important sales not covered.
Jeff Garrett and John Dannreuther created a series of The Official Red Book of Auction Records. They covered roughly in the range of 1993 to 2004. But I think these became the basis for the PCGS Auction Prices so not sure if there is much difference.
Not sure there is any kind of general directory for before 1972.
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I bought an 1846-O Seated Dollar from Heritage in 2003. I recently learned how to post pictures from sites like Heritage but this coin simply does not show up in their archive. Can anyone tell me how you would use this AI feature to find it back? James
Is it one of these 13 auctioned in 2003?
Only one does not have a photo. If it was a non-auction purchase then it may not have a photo unless found in another auction.
https://coins.ha.com/c/search/results.zx?term=1846-o&si=2&dept=1909&archive_state=5327&sold_status=1526&coin_category=3838&coin_category_child=4801&auction_year=2003&mode=archive&page=25%7E1&sb=4&ic4=SortBy-071515
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
@WinLoseWin . Thanks for trying but those are the same archive results I get. This is the only auction won coin from Heritage that does not seem to be in their system. James
Great topic for a thread, @Seraph21! I'll do my (little) part by pasting some links here for those who may not be as internet savvy as many of the posters above.
https://archive.stacksbowers.com/
https://coins.ha.com/heritage-auctions-hall-of-fame-best-prices-realized.s?ic=Tab-Resources-AuctionArchives-122214
https://www.greatcollections.com/Auction-Archive/US-Coin-Prices/
https://nnp.wustl.edu/
And on the NNP (Newman Numismatic Portal) these individual areas are helpful:
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/auctioncompanies
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/ImageCollections
(Pro tip: the Image Collections may be sorted by first name - for example, the Steve Crain seated half dimes are under S, not C: https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/imagecollections?searchLetter=S)
My (infrequently updated) hobby website Groovycoins.com
@seatedlib3991 Is it this one which is marked as Not Sold?
No my coin is a PCGS 35 6933.35/5732952. I have 2003 as the purchase date in my coin journal but have gone thru entire archive twice. James