Has the copper in a cent ever been worth more than a cent??

misterR · February 4, 2003 6:21AM

When did it happen and if it has what is the spot price of copper for this to occur?

dorkkarl · February 4, 2003 7:08AM

it's the situation today. an 1851 large-cent is still legal tender, yet it's copper content > $.01.

K S

misterR · February 4, 2003 10:19AM

OK dorkarl, I didn't intend my question as a trick but you were first with the correct answer if I had. Congrats. Being more specific now, has the copper in a Lincoln cent ever been worth more than the face value of one cent? What does spot copper have to be and when has this ever happened?

airplanenut · February 4, 2003 10:21AM

Good one, Dork- that's what I would say

I don't think any cent has ever been worth more than one cent... unless it was an off metal coin, perhaps...

baccaruda · February 4, 2003 10:23AM

copper closed Jan 31 @ 79¢ / pound.

how many pennies in a pound?

SarasotaFrank · February 4, 2003 10:23AM

I seem to remember a time in the 70's where copy went high enough to outrun a penny.

If I recall correctly this was at the time when we hafd $800 gold. COnstruction sites had 24 hour security to prevent theives from stripping out the copper pipe from buildings under construction. Being from Jersey, this was a regular event.

Keyrock · February 4, 2003 10:23AM

I know the price was getting close in the 1850s. I read somewhere that they were breaking even on the large cents due to minting cost and distribution.

I think in the 70's it was similiar resulting in the change to copper plated zinc cents in 1982. Along the same line there was the aluminum pattern in 74. Other than this rambling I don't know if it did occur.

Rich

baccaruda · February 4, 2003 10:28AM

zinc (penny after 1982) is worth about 39¢ / pound.

numispro · February 4, 2003 10:41AM

Let's see.

There are about 3 grams of copper in a cent, making about 165 to the pound.

So, for a 1963 cent to be worth around, say 40 grand, copper would need to hit somewhere north of $6,500,000 per pound.

coppercoins · February 4, 2003 10:47AM

There's about 150 to a pound, and no...the metal has never been worth more on the market than its face value in the weight of a cent.

baccaruda · February 4, 2003 10:52AM

coppercoin -

if there's no danger of the intrinsic value exceeding the face value - then why the change to zinc in 1982?

misterR · February 4, 2003 10:58AM

Thanks everyone, and especially coppercoins. I didn't think that the copper in a Lincoln cent had ever surpassed its face value. Shortages occured in the past when hoarders saw the price of copper approaching the point where melting would be profitable. Guess nobody has made a cent off hoarding copper cents yet.

prooflike · February 4, 2003 11:33AM

Because zinc is half the price of copper, cheaper to make cents with zinc???

Conder101 · February 4, 2003 12:50PM

It has never been high enough for the metal in a lincoln cent to exceed the face value but it has been close. In the early 70's copper got up to the $1.30 a pound range and seemed to be on the move to higher levels. At that level it was just about break even for the mint to produce cents. (Cost of materials + cost of production > .95 cents each.) But then the copper prices turned and headed back down.

cladking · February 4, 2003 12:52PM

<< <i>Because zinc is half the price of copper, cheaper to make cents with zinc??? >>

Zinc also weighs less so you can make more coins with a pound and is softer so the dies last longer.

coppercoins · February 4, 2003 2:05PM

Right on the nose, Cladking. Because it's CHEAPER. Less cost, less weight, less attractiveness, and you would think they would have realized it by now - FAR less life span!

The switch over to zinc was one of the worst moves they ever made and why they stick to their guns on it is beyond me. I figure it has to do with something going on between the mint and the zinc industry. Somebody knew somebody who owned a lot of zinc and wanted to sell it, and they talked to the right people who decided the switch was a good idea. I don't know, pure speculation going on here.

What I do know is that the copper plating on the cent, comprising of only 2.5% of the overall composition of the coin, is way too thin and splits easily when struck. This leaves bare pure zinc exposed to the air. For those who understand chemistry better than I it might be simpler to explain. I do believe, however, that pure zinc exposed to air, which has oxygen in it, creates zinc oxide in powder form - same thing as the white stuff you can put on your nose to protect from sunburn. This quickly brings an end to the life of a cent. Bronze cents didn't face such dangers.

Here we have a time when poking around at the ground with a metal detector brings up crap that used to be a cent made five years ago, and in the next hole a nice chocolate brown wheat cent. I long for the good old days, but doubt they will ever happen. The mint seems to continuously make bad decisions - the single squeeze die making process which required micron thin relief and ugly coins to result, the switch from bronze to zinc, the alloy used in the Sacabuck. All great failures of the late 20th century....blahh!

cladking · February 4, 2003 2:59PM

Zinc is a common metal and is found in many locations. The zinc industry
has a powerful lobby in congress. I understand Al gore has a zinc mine
on his property in Tennessee.

In the kind of quantity found in a cent, zinc is a deadly poison. If the copper
sheathing is compromised stomach acids can easily dissolve an entire cent
in hours. This quantity of zinc is sufficient to kill most mammals under about
a hundred pounds.

Zinc cents are proving difficult to preserve in pristine condition. Some of the
early dates are already becoming harder to find.

richbeat · February 4, 2003 3:11PM

The cost to manufacture a cent has been running between eight tenths and nine tenths of a cent for some time now. The last figure I saw was .82, leaving a profit of .18 for each cent. I'm sure that figure has been revised by now.

dorkkarl · February 4, 2003 7:06PM

i can't do the math. what would the spot price of a large cent be right now? where can i look up spot on copper?

K S

keets · February 4, 2003 7:32PM

I figure it has to do with something going on between the mint and the zinc industry. Somebody knew somebody who owned a lot of zinc and wanted to sell it, and they talked to the right people who decided the switch was a good idea. I don't know, pure speculation going on here.

.......it wouldn't be the first time a coins metal content was dictated by special interests in bed with the government. can anybody say morgan silver dollar and shield nickel??

al h.

dorkkarl · February 4, 2003 9:04PM

wasn't there talk at 1 time of experimenting w/ plastic & ceramic coins?

K S

Conder101 · February 4, 2003 9:42PM

During the second world war when they were searching for a replacement for the copper in the cent several materials were tested including cardboard, plastic and glass before settling on the low grade steel plated with zinc. At one point a serious contender was a brown glass compostion that had as an anticounterfeiting feature the fact that it would glow under blacklight. It seemed to have the inside track until one day the government suddenly did an about face and scapped that composition. It seems that in order to get the brown color and the blacklight properties they were using uranium oxide as one of the ingredients.

dorkkarl · February 4, 2003 9:50PM

hey conder, maybe i was thinking of glass, but thought it was ceramic. in that case, the coins would have to be cast instead of struck, right?

K S

keets · February 4, 2003 9:53PM

.......and out the window would go the words coin and minted!!!

al h.

jbsteven · February 4, 2003 10:00PM

I am not an expert on this but I read a article recently where it states that when the large cent was reduced in size is about the time the cost of a penny to make was VERY close if not over .01. It also could have been worth just under .01 in bullion value at that same time.

You large cent guys chime in on this if I am wrong but I am pretty sure of what I read.

dorkkarl · February 4, 2003 10:45PM

<< <i>.......and out the window would go the words coin and minted!!! >>

buahahahahahah! no doubt about it! "double-cast" instead of double-die, "over-cast" instead of over-date, man that would be a problem!

<< <i>cost of a (large) penny to make was VERY close if not over .01 >>

that is correct, but i think that w/ inflation since 1857, the bullion value of a large cent should be more than once cent today.

can anyone do the math?

K S

Conder101 · February 5, 2003 8:54AM

They may have tried a ceramic compound, I don't know . They tried a lot of different things.

For the last couple years the large cent cost the mint more than a cent to produce but I don't think the metal value exceeded one cent. They knew it was headed in that direction though so they experiments with changes in size and coposition in 1854, 55 and 56 before settling on the 88% copper 12 % nickel alloy on the size used for the flying eagle cent. The nickel was included in the aloy for two reasons. One was political as a subsidy to Wharton and the other was to kept the intrinsic value of the metal close to one cent. Even for the minor coinage it was though that it was necessary for a coin to have close to its face value in metal in it in order for it to circulate.

flaminio · February 5, 2003 8:56AM

Factoring in all costs, cents cost more than one cent today. It costs the government about 1.2c to get a one cent coin into circulation. It's high time the coin were eliminated and transactions rounded to the nearest 5c.

sinin1 · February 5, 2003 9:02AM

The government should forget about coins completely and just make $100 bills - they can make those for a couple cents - flood the market with $100 bills and pay off the government debt.

cladking · February 5, 2003 1:08PM

<< <i>Factoring in all costs, cents cost more than one cent today. It costs the government about 1.2c to get a one cent coin into circulation. It's high time the coin were eliminated and transactions rounded to the nearest 5c. >>

Handling costs of cents during their short life span are also staggering.

clackamas · February 5, 2003 1:13PM

What about Canadian cents compared to the cost of copper in US dollars. Isn't a canadian cent worth about 70% what a US coin is worth?

Cam40 · February 5, 2003 6:58PM

The government should forget about coins completely and just make $100 bills - they can make those for a couple cents - flood the market with $100 bills and pay off the government debt.

`Thats a Jumbo Jack ,Large Fries,and a Large Coke.Your total is $67,800 Please drive through`

Cam40 · February 5, 2003 7:04PM

What about Canadian cents compared to the cost of copper in US dollars. Isn't a canadian cent worth about 70% what a US coin is worth?

I thought the exchange rate was closer to 90%.Not sure.It fluctuates.
Also didnt Canada begin making copper-plated zinc cents about the same time we did?
I may have heard 1984 is the last year Canadian copper cents were made.
Did I read that in CoinWorld last year?.

Conder101 · February 5, 2003 9:43PM

Last I knew the exchange rate was either 63 or 66%. The only reason the canadians can still make their cent is because it is lighter than ours so material cost are lower plus their labor coses are probably less. But it probably still makes it a barely break even proposition.

rickrman · February 5, 2003 10:32PM

I've been hoarding copper cents for over 10 years and have just over 200 lbs. Since pre-1982 cents are the only American modern coinage left that has intrinsic value near it's denomination, history (and the unrelenting currency presses) dictate inflation will soon run rampant and a copper penny will have an intrinsic value more than one cent. The next best bet is to hoard nickels for their intrinsic value. All you have to do is live long enough.

dorkkarl · February 5, 2003 11:35PM

maybe we should hoard $1 bills! do you think the intrinsic value of paper will ever exceed a dollar?

K S

Has the copper in a cent ever been worth more than a cent??

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