Analyzing my FE PR Registry Set
Copperindian
Posts: 2,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
The original thread has been removed as a number of members felt it was a violation of forum rules. Instead I’ve edited it to discuss the components of the above cited set.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
7
Comments
Wonderful group!
www.brunkauctions.com
It is a sales notice. Not a “bit of”.
Congratulations on its formation. It is quite nice.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Sorry, but this clearly belongs on the Buy, Sell and Trade forum. Frankly, I’m surprised and disappointed to see it posted here, regardless of how impressive the coins might be.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
1856 S-1 PCGS PR62 EEPS + CAC:
The S-1 was the first FE produced in the original 1856 striking period. There are 10 known today. This one was the last of the 10 discovered - a little over 3 years ago. It was in a dealer’s inventory @ WFOM, undesignated in a PCGS slab. The buyer then (who was a collector friend of mine) recognized what it was, bought it & flipped it to Rick Snow. Rick had it designated & then sold it to me.
The design & strike of the S-1 is unique among all the FE Proofs. The ONE CENT on the reverse is slightly tilted by design. Properly aligned with the ONE CENT showing evenly, the eagle appears to be flying upward. Consensus among experts is this design proved unworkable & the dies were discarded.
Imo, the S-1 is the most desired among FE PR collectors as it’s the initial design & assumed to be the rarest of the group. The latter perception is not quite true, though.
Among the 10 pop, this coin is tied for #3 behind 2 PR64 examples.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
That is an amazing collection, I wish I could get some of those coins!
1856 S-2 PCGS PR64 EEPS + CAC:
While the 1856 S-1 described in the previous post is thought to be the most rare, the S-2 actually is. There are only 6(!) examples known. The coin in this set is tied for the highest numerical grade, but actually ranks #2 as the other 64 has the CAM designation.
The S-2 is easy to identify as there’s an obvious “tail” chip at the center bottom of the U in UNITED. It also has the high leaves reverse.
This piece is undisturbed & has highly reflective fields that literally glitter in the light. While the TV shows this luster, it also enhances what appears to be excessive spotting. In hand, though, this “feature” is barely noticeable.
I was alerted to this coin which was being sold by a collectibles/antiques dealer on his Instagram page - I would have to call that very lucky!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
1856 S-3 PCGS PR64 EEPS + CAC:
Population numbers for the PR S-3 are inaccurately high; in reality, the actual numbers are much lower. Years ago, decision was made by the TPG’s to grade all 1856’s as proofs. Consequently, there are numerous S-3’s masquerading as PR’s that are actually MS coins. By extension, that also means the pops given for MS S-3’s are inordinately low.
This particular coin is surrounded by a bit of “controversy”. It’s thought to be undergraded @ PR64, both by the initial buyer & some that have seen it in hand. I talked to a few potential buyers @ WFOM that thought it should also have the CAM designation. I respectfully have to disagree with both; imo, it’s properly graded as is.
However, it is a real beauty in every way with exceptional eye appeal. The coin has a highly repolished die appearance lending credence it was one of the first produced under the new dies. It has reverse striations unknown to any other S-3 examples. The mirrored fields are nothing short of extraordinary!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
@Copperindian, best of luck Ken. Hope this sale meets all your expectations! Zack.
I fully realize this is technically a violation by posting this thread here rather than the BST forum. The sale itself is really a footnote. Not only don’t I expect to generate any sales in this venue, but anyone interested in these coins has already seen them & has their own “game plan” for sale day.
The real reason for the thread is to discuss the coins; maybe a bit of an education for a series not many get involved with. Once they’re sold, this bit of “value” goes away. When I no longer own them, I’m highly unlikely to discuss them any longer on a purely educational basis.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
I noticed a few minor design variations between each of these coins and I am fascinated by the differences. It would be a blast to see them all in hand and compare each to the other.
I appreciate seeing three trueviews together so far. Pardon me if these differences are noted somewhere, I just spotted them comparing photos.
Edited:
Wow there are a lot of tiny differences on both sides of these three coins.
The reverses have two different denticle counts… 131 and 136.
There are differences in the clusters of (stuff?) at 12 o clock on the reverse.
The O of OF has a slightly different shape in each pic
The ribbons are substantially different on each of the three, and a few other minuscule variations.
The different lighting in each makes it a challenge to identify more.
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
What will your next set be?
Good question - I don’t have any plans for now. But I am thinking of buying more CACG graded coins. I like their grading standards & their slabs + their good service. PCGS Registry isn’t what it used to be which is unfortunate. Still, I’m overall PCGS biased.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
@Aspie_Rocco: really really enjoyed reading your analysis. And I learned from it - I never realized there were variations in the denticles count. But I’m not surprised it’s the S-1 that’s different. Your comment is beyond what I hoped for when I started the thread - thanks for posting! When I thought there might be some educational value, I didn’t think I would be the one getting the education & I think that’s great!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
@jfriedm56: thanks very much for the good wishes Zack!
Ken
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
You can easily discuss the coins without mentioning the sale, putting the advertisement in the post, and giving all of the details of the sale.
I have to agree with @MFeld . Regardless of your intention, this is not just a "technical violation". It is blatant advertising and would not be accepted by any member, regardless of how valued they are (and you are valued).
The sale is hardly a footnote. It's literally in the title and the first thing posted in a giant banner.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Nice set there, best wishes on everything
Let's not be so critical. You dudes need to lighten up a bit. Really, it's not that big a deal. Who cares!
I agree. There are scores of threads for mint products, upcoming auctions, and similar sale themed threads.
I think the rarity and variety of the coins in this thread gives the thread an overall pass since their offering is a unique numismatic event.
The high quality of posts, contributions, and threads @Copperindian authors transcends a mere advertisement plug. Even if it is a plug, so what, it is a numismatic and historical event, not just some random common coins. Has anyone ever sold a unique set like this before?
Edited to say, I could be more wrong than right with my support for this post, and may be biased due to my enthusiasm for rare die varieties and the accomplishment of assembling this set of FE. Having said that, I would not go as far as calling this thread spam.
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
CopperIndian.
Congratulations on assembling this set of coins. Best of luck with your upcoming sale.
Kudos to you also for making the collection of a series of Proof Coins part of your hobby efforts.
I also like collecting proof coins. There is something very appealing about acquiring examples (hopefully in Gem condition) of coins that are the ......... Highest Expression Of The Minter's Art.
.> @jfriedm56 said:
There are probably more than a few other forum members who post for-sale items on the designated forum for that, who would like to post them here, too. But they don’t, so as not to disregard what @HeatherBoyd has pinned near the top of this page. And just because we might like a particular forum member and/or what he posts isn’t an excuse to provide a free pass, when we might not do the same for someone else.
“Posts spamming personal advertisements are not allowed and will be deleted. Repeated posts spamming the same ad may lead to a ban. If you would like additional advertising space on this site, please contact our Advertising Department.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld you made a fair observation and I understand how you could see this thread be as simply an advertisement, however, there is clearly an educational and historical component to this thread.
I did a quick search and found more than 2,000 threads in the US coins forum here with “Heritage” in the title. Many of which discuss (at the time) upcoming auctions and specific items in Heritage auctions. Would they be considered spam also?
Do you feel the threads on this site about the 1889 CC Morgan hoard attracted more eyes to the recent Heritage auction of them, or get more attention for Heritage auctions in general?
I may be biased because I find educational content in this thread.
It is not my intent to argue with you, just sharing my point of view regarding upcoming auctions/sales.
I think this collection of Flying Eagles is a historic offering that eclipses the 1889 CC sale, which was also an historic offering, and was quite a sensation here.
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
I’m a fan of Shannon’s and Copperindian is a good member here.
But Mark and lermish are right. This got posted as moderators are headed out for the long weekend.
It would be just as educational to post it after the sale.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Shannon should direct the OP to remove this thread (and all the pics posted by the OP here) ASAP. It’s really hurting Shannon’s sale / marketing of these coins IMHO.
Wondercoin.
To my knowledge, I didn’t start any Heritage threads of the type you mentioned, because that would, in effect, be a “personal advertisement”. But if (without being encouraged to do so) as often occurs, posters start threads about someone else’s listings, businesses, auctions, etc. I don’t think that would be considered spam.
Also, as was mentioned previously by @lermish:
“ You can easily discuss the coins without mentioning the sale, putting the advertisement in the post, and giving all of the details of the sale.”
Please keep in mind that there are plenty of forum members who feel similarly to how I do on this issue but understandably, made a decision not to speak up. They’re probably smarter than me, as I’m not at all surprised that my posts in this thread are unpopular.
Now that I’ve responded to your post, I’ll refrain from further posts to this thread. Enjoy the quiet.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mark. They are not unpopular. They are 100% accurate. This post is against the rules. You are here to enforce the rules (by popular vote of all of us). Thank you for speaking up.
Wondercoin.
I sincerely apologize to all those offended by my original thread. It was not my intent, but realize how it appeared & was a violation of forum rules. I hope the edited thread title addresses this adequately. I’m very sorry for any problems this may have caused those affected.
Ken
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
Hey man. Don't get down on yourself. I really love those coins!
God comes first in everything I do. I’m dedicated to serving Him with my whole life. Coin collecting is just a hobby—but even in that, I seek to honor Him. ✝️
Thanks but I inadvertently did wrong & have to own it!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
No worries Ken. All’s well.
And where is the line? The dealers could start a thread for every rare coin in their inventory and there would be nothing but a second BST. There is a forum for commerce and this isn't it.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Agreed, looking forward to more excellent posts with gorgeous coins!
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Not really a big deal. Chill. You’re right. It’s not a big deal and I don’t care. And please keep your opinions to yourself and don’t single me out. What are you the new bully on the block? Let’s not get personal as you don’t know me.
How is my comment remotely "personal"? It's a simple observation in response to your "who cares?" Some people do.
I'm not sure how you can even read my comment as anything but "chill".
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I doubt anyone was offended. A member can remind you of the rules of this board without taking it personally and being offended.
I think that is the spirit of those who have taken issue with the rule violation. Pointing it out without being hurt of offended.
peacockcoins
@braddick: in an ideal world, you’re absolutely correct. Imo, though, a few members went a bit overboard with their comments/opinions. Consequently, my apology which is certainly genuine.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
1856 S-4 PCGS PR63+ EEPS + CAC:
This one’s a bit of an anomaly in the group. It’s the only one with the low leaves reverse. Actual population is higher than the numbers show; it seems there are a handful not designated. Actual estimates are between 20-30 by those more expert than I am. Still, that makes this variety rare like the others, just less so.
Along with the low leaves as a pickup, there’s the “pointed U” similar to that found on the more rare S-2.
Finally, it’s not only visually appealing with sharp detail & minimal marks, it’s the only one of the 9 coins I think may be undergraded.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
1856 S-5 PCGS PR65 EEPS + CAC:
The PR S-5 is thought to be one of 3 from the original 1856 striking period, along with the S-1 & S-3. The example in this set is a pop 1/0. It has beautiful deep mirrors with gorgeous toning. Marks are at a bare minimum & eye appeal borders on exceptional. Series expert Rick Snow has inferred this coin is PR66 quality; while his assertion might be correct, I’m fine with the grade assigned.
Similar to the S-2 & S-4 is the pointed U in UNITED. There is a centering dot underneath the upper left serif of the N in ONE. The 1 in the date is bolder than the other digits.
Estimates are about 15 survivors of this early date; there is thought these were originally presentation pieces.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
1856 S-9 PCGS PR66 EEPS + CAC:
Tagged the “Redbird” by its previous owner, it’s a 1/0 top pop. The S-9 variety is the most populous of the 1856 PR’s; estimates are over half of the undesignated ones are the S-9 variety. Typically, the mirrors on S-9’s are “medium”, but they’re better than that on this one & are actually good. Surfaces are essentially flawless & details are sharp. Eye appeal is extraordinary; there is no other 1856 PR, S-9 or otherwise, that has this appearance that I have seen.
What distinguishes the S-9 are a heavy die polish line from the rim to the I in UNITED that often extends further into the field to the left wing. There is a bold centering dot under the top of the serif of the N in ONE on the reverse. It’s more pronounced than that seen on the S-5.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
I looked at these coins at ANA. Very impressive.
Very impressive. I'm scrounging to afford a cleaned 1857!
God comes first in everything I do. I’m dedicated to serving Him with my whole life. Coin collecting is just a hobby—but even in that, I seek to honor Him. ✝️
Interesting, this one has 128 reverse denticles compared to 131 and 136 on the previous three featured.
And this one has 128 also
131 on this one
Redisin may have been a nut, but the denticle counting is interesting to me.
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Someone get @tradedollarnut in here, I'm sure he's had extensive practice by now after his last batch of assignments
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To @Aspie_Rocco ’s credit, this is something I’ve never studied with these before. It is nuanced but still interesting.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
1857 PCGS PR64+CAM EEPS + CAC:
The 1857 PR is an extreme rarity by any measure, with only 50 pieces produced. Even so, there are 3 variations; this one is the PR3. Characteristics are 1) slight doubling on the UNIT of UNITED; 2) a bold diagonal die file mark emanating from the denticles above the U in UNITED; 3) unpolished field around the left rev bow (right field is polished); & 4) ribbon ends are connected to the rim.
While this coin has exceptional eye appeal with highly mirrored fields, there are 5 in the pop graded higher. This example my have been held back from a higher grade by a very light scattering of lint on the die from the minting process. It’s the only one with the CAM designation in the set.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
1858 SL PCGS PR65 EEPS + CAC:
Estimates are 200 of these minted, with perhaps 60-70 surviving today. This date & type was primarily minted for inclusion in the 12 piece pattern sets.
It’s a beautiful problem free coin with highly mirrored fields & no issues regarding marks nor strike. A FE expert I’m acquainted with feels this piece should have the CAM designation. I can’t quite agree as I note a very light frost over the fields; therefore it’s fairly graded, imo.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
1858 LL PCGS PR65 EEPS + CAC:
This final coin in the set is an eye appeal monster, with a multitude of color shades intermixed throughout the fields & devices. Strike is sharp with great detail & nominal marks.
It’s a bit of an anomaly as well, as there were only 100 pieces struck, half the number of the companion SL. As the SL pieces were earmarked for the 12 piece pattern sets, this difference is understandable.
There’s also only one type: the PR1. These coins normally have deep mirrors & this one is no exception.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
I double checked these (and hope it is not a miscount)
131 on all three posted today
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
@Aspie_Rocco: it somewhat makes sense the SL & LL are the same. I’ll confirm, too, the count on the 1857 is 130.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Nickelodeon
I checked the 57 a few more times and missed a mushy denticle in the second group of 10. (Which makes a group of 11). I think that one is 131 like the others
I also noticed a height variation on the left leaf of the high leaves examples. Some end above the base of the E on cent, and some are even (43) with or below the E (44)
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/