@oldabeintx said:
I wish I could see more posts relating to the original topic. Those of us who collect without giving much consideration to the TPG are curious about the liquidity of and demand for CACG coins. Or, more accurately, the evolution of same. What progress has CACG made in the market? I love CACG but always have an eye on future value, not that I give a great deal of weight to it,
Not much progress. They are inconsistent and unreliable, grades too high or too low from what I see. Because of this, many major players tend to avoid CACG, because PCGS and NGC already have sturdy interest in the developed marketplace. CACG doesn't pull the kind of premium people were first expecting.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
I didn't know the other TPG's had message boards.
You're missing meme opportunities
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
I didn't know the other TPG's had message boards.
You're missing meme opportunities
Would those meme opportunities include images of Pinocchio?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This is interesting to hear. As CAC all the heavy lifting has been done by the PCGS/NGC grading teams, as CACG that entity is seeing coins raw and making an unbiased grade assessment.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
I didn't know the other TPG's had message boards.
You're missing meme opportunities
Would those meme opportunities include images of Pinocchio?
Is he the patron saint of sarcasm?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
This is interesting to hear. As CAC all the heavy lifting has been done by the PCGS/NGC grading teams, as CACG that entity is seeing coins raw and making an unbiased grade assessment.
Or receiving thousands upon thousands of PCGS/NGC graded coins for CACG upgrade, with many passing. Besides this scenario, sending coins to CACG makes little financial sense from either the collector or dealer mindset.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
I didn't know the other TPG's had message boards.
You're missing meme opportunities
Would those meme opportunities include images of Pinocchio?
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
I didn't know the other TPG's had message boards.
You're missing meme opportunities
Would those meme opportunities include images of Pinocchio?
I sold a number of CACG graded gold coins to a dealer in May and they brought strong money. The same money that a PCGS/CAC would have (as stated by the dealer when he searched auction results). I had very low offers for the non-CAC PCGS gold and silver.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
Yup I used to drink kool aid too. But I’ve upgraded to fresh squeezed lemonade. More healthy.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that it's a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. Just as there are those collectors/dealers who are strong supporters of PCGS there are those who are strong supporters of CAC/CACG. It doesn't have to be at the expense of the other side.
Interesting comment. Hopefully you realize that too often folks start threads here with the point of being critical of 2 TPGs and patting the other one on the back even though all have flaws and all are good for what they do. As you know, this is why the ‘drinking the kool aid' slogan started many years back.
So I am asking myself, why are these folks not going over to the other TPG message boards and being critical of them there instead of preaching to the choir here? This is where I raise my concerns.
I didn't know the other TPG's had message boards.
You're missing meme opportunities
Would those meme opportunities include images of Pinocchio?
I assume you're just happy to see us?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@breakdown said:
I think CACG has a chance to continue to gather momentum and carve out a bigger niche. But it is dealing with at least 3 headwinds:
1. Inertia. Most top coins are in PCGS or PCGS/CAC holders and for most coins there is not a compelling enough reason to ship to Virginia to cross.
2. The PCGS registry is still the 800 pound gorilla and far more people care about the registry than would care to admit.
3. CACG does not grade at shows. This presents a major disadvantage compared to PCGS and NGC because dealers need to keep things moving and like to minimize shipping costs and risks.
I think there is a 4th headwind: the stickering business. Should have been phased out soon after launch.
JA would then be spending more time with graders to ensure his legacy and be seen regularly doing so. Imagine if a significant part of the stickering business now ended up flowing instead to CACG to bolster the reinforcing CACG.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I love the stickering part of this process. You got two different grading companies looking at a coin two different sets of eyes professionals mostly and I think it’s great when the coin stickers so I hope we don’t raise out the stickering part of that company.
@Proofmorgan said "Ultimately, it seems PCGS/CAC is still king. I'm unsure if this has to do with registry, collectors wanting a consistent holder, or brand identity"
As a collector and fan of the PCGS/CAC combination I have a few thoughts on this subject.
I am not sure the PCGS registry is still a driving factor since PCGS crippled the PCGS CAC aspect of the registry. I cannot update all of my CAC sets, only some here and there.
Which makes me wonder if CAC stickers done before the creation of CACG are still eligible or more eligible for current updates.
The niche market for older PCGS holders / labels has a distinct following (doily, rattler, green label, and the cornucopia of other label variants).
Adding a CAC sticker to a small population of pcgs holders creates instant "rarity" which became its own subset and specialized PCGS registry for a time period.
The overall population of PCGS CAC is dramatically lower than the PCGS population. There is a distinct premium for PCGS CAC in most coin series which is clearly evident in the Eisenhower dollars, arguably the most difficult coin get a sticker on.
I personally do not collect any series that is rarely offered among all grading companies. Most coins from the mid 1850s to present are readily available from any given company.
I have been buying pcgs for so long that 99% of the time I can just wait to find a coin I want already in PCGS plastic. I do not have to settle for any other holder except with rare die varieties.
One additional point. My CACG plus graded coins were better received than my PCGS/CAC plus coins. One large West Coast Dealer actually handed back the PCAC plus coin and said he does not like buying those.
Makes sense. A CACG plus is a true plus, a PCGS/CAC plus is possibly a plus and possibly not.
@breakdown said:
I think CACG has a chance to continue to gather momentum and carve out a bigger niche. But it is dealing with at least 3 headwinds:
1. Inertia. Most top coins are in PCGS or PCGS/CAC holders and for most coins there is not a compelling enough reason to ship to Virginia to cross.
2. The PCGS registry is still the 800 pound gorilla and far more people care about the registry than would care to admit.
3. CACG does not grade at shows. This presents a major disadvantage compared to PCGS and NGC because dealers need to keep things moving and like to minimize shipping costs and risks.
I think there is a 4th headwind: the stickering business. Should have been phased out soon after launch.
JA would then be spending more time with graders to ensure his legacy and be seen regularly doing so. Imagine if a significant part of the stickering business now ended up flowing instead to CACG to bolster the reinforcing CACG.
They are trying to cut into that 4th headwind and phase out CAC stickering, just slowly. We have seen CAC stickering stop accepting new members and stickering prices have gone up. To pull the plug completely on stickering at the launch of CACG would have been too much of a risk if it struggled.
@oldabeintx said:
I wish I could see more posts relating to the original topic. Those of us who collect without giving much consideration to the TPG are curious about the liquidity of and demand for CACG coins. Or, more accurately, the evolution of same. What progress has CACG made in the market? I love CACG but always have an eye on future value, not that I give a great deal of weight to it,
Next to impossible to get real unbiased facts here, too much personal/corporate bias.
They are inconsistent and unreliable, grades too high or too low from what I see.
This is a very vague statement. Who are they? That could describe all coin grading ever done.
If you mean CACG, the point of this thread, my experience with CACG is that they are very consistent with grades and follow the same grading standards at CAC. So if so, my experience would be inconsistent with your statement above. So can you be more specific whom you are referring to?
This is interesting to hear. As CAC all the heavy lifting has been done by the PCGS/NGC grading teams, as CACG that entity is seeing coins raw and making an unbiased grade assessment.
And a totally vague and meaningless statement with out specifics of what he was referring to as I note above.
@pcgscacgold said:
I sold a number of CACG graded gold coins to a dealer in May and they brought strong money. The same money that a PCGS/CAC would have (as stated by the dealer when he searched auction results). I had very low offers for the non-CAC PCGS gold and silver.
That has been exactly my experience selling both CACG and PCGS/CAC vs. non-CACed gold coins in slabs.
@oldabeintx said:
I wish I could see more posts relating to the original topic. Those of us who collect without giving much consideration to the TPG are curious about the liquidity of and demand for CACG coins. Or, more accurately, the evolution of same. What progress has CACG made in the market? I love CACG but always have an eye on future value, not that I give a great deal of weight to it,
Next to impossible to get real unbiased facts here, too much personal/corporate bias.
Definitely. I don't play the registry game so I don't view PCGS as superior to CACG. I do, however, have a slight preference for NGC/CAC or PCGS/CAC over CACG just because I have 2 independent opinions.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
They are inconsistent and unreliable, grades too high or too low from what I see.
This is a very vague statement. Who are they? That could describe all coin grading ever done.
If you mean CACG, the point of this thread, my experience with CACG is that they are very consistent with grades and follow the same grading standards at CAC. So if so, my experience would be inconsistent with your statement above. So can you be more specific whom you are referring to?
I was answering the question of the individual I was quoting, which was about CACG relative to current market standards.
...my experience with CACG is that they are very consistent with grades and follow the same grading standards at CAC. So if so, my experience would be inconsistent with your statement above.
We can agree to disagree on our personal opinions and experience, but the facts are still on the table. Many big players don't use CACG. That's evidence enough to show something. All the dealers I asked at OKC seemed to share a similar opinion, admittedly a small sample size.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
@Desert Moon said:
"For this kind of collectors it's hard to go CACG because there just isn't enough inventory out there - you'd have to cross almost everything you want to put into your collection.”
Why? You have a coin in the best grading company's holder. You don’t have to cross it to anywhere. Oh. Registry. CAC has an inclusive registry for the 3 big TPG’s, best in town. So why spend money on crossing when there is no need?
You'd know why if you didn't clip the sentence I said before that. The reason for having an entire collection in the same holder goes beyond the registry.
Not all collectors believe an all inclusive registry is a good thing. For many of the modern sets I collect, NGC sets can be put together at a much lower price than a PCGS or CACG set, and in my experience most of those NGC coins will not cross to PCGS or CACG so it is not a level playing field. In fact recently I've tried to cross several NGC MS68s to PCGS @ 67 and they still wouldn't take them. Who wants to compete with that?
@Aspie_Rocco said: @Proofmorgan said "Ultimately, it seems PCGS/CAC is still king. I'm unsure if this has to do with registry, collectors wanting a consistent holder, or brand identity"
As a collector and fan of the PCGS/CAC combination I have a few thoughts on this subject.
I am not sure the PCGS registry is still a driving factor since PCGS crippled the PCGS CAC aspect of the registry. I cannot update all of my CAC sets, only some here and there.
Which makes me wonder if CAC stickers done before the creation of CACG are still eligible or more eligible for current updates.
The niche market for older PCGS holders / labels has a distinct following (doily, rattler, green label, and the cornucopia of other label variants).
Adding a CAC sticker to a small population of pcgs holders creates instant "rarity" which became its own subset and specialized PCGS registry for a time period.
The overall population of PCGS CAC is dramatically lower than the PCGS population. There is a distinct premium for PCGS CAC in most coin series which is clearly evident in the Eisenhower dollars, arguably the most difficult coin get a sticker on.
I personally do not collect any series that is rarely offered among all grading companies. Most coins from the mid 1850s to present are readily available from any given company.
I have been buying pcgs for so long that 99% of the time I can just wait to find a coin I want already in PCGS plastic. I do not have to settle for any other holder except with rare die varieties.
There was a message in the PCGS registry to email customer service about this. I think they manually update the database now.
@pcgscacgold said:
One additional point. My CACG plus graded coins were better received than my PCGS/CAC plus coins. One large West Coast Dealer actually handed back the PCAC plus coin and said he does not like buying those.
Makes sense. A CACG plus is a true plus, a PCGS/CAC plus is possibly a plus and possibly not.
A "true" plus by what standard? Per PCGS: A PCGS "Plus" grade indicates a coin is of superior quality, possessing excellent eye appeal and technical attributes, placing it among the top 20-30% of coins within its assigned numerical grade." I wouldn't expect NGC or CACG to have the same standard because as already discussed, they each have their own standards. Which one is the "true" standard?
@Cougar1978 said:
I own slightly over 2 dozen CACG slabs. They are a fun, good investment.
How do you know that they're a good investment?
CACG material has performed well for me in the retail arena. Especially low pop ones able to pick off here and there. Others able to buy right (dealer contacts). However it can be slow going - rabid (rich) auc bidder competition. However I may bid them up to low - mid retail b4 giving up.
@breakdown said:
I think CACG has a chance to continue to gather momentum and carve out a bigger niche. But it is dealing with at least 3 headwinds:
1. Inertia. Most top coins are in PCGS or PCGS/CAC holders and for most coins there is not a compelling enough reason to ship to Virginia to cross.
2. The PCGS registry is still the 800 pound gorilla and far more people care about the registry than would care to admit.
3. CACG does not grade at shows. This presents a major disadvantage compared to PCGS and NGC because dealers need to keep things moving and like to minimize shipping costs and risks.
I think there is a 4th headwind: the stickering business. Should have been phased out soon after launch.
JA would then be spending more time with graders to ensure his legacy and be seen regularly doing so. Imagine if a significant part of the stickering business now ended up flowing instead to CACG to bolster the reinforcing CACG.
JA sees it as a 10 year phase out oc CAC. I am not sure what the explanation is, but I don’t really think it matters. I think the main reason against CACG for some is that that there is one TPG with a registry that will only allow coins in their holders, and alot of folks are committed to that. That dynamic is likely to change with time as more of the best coins are transitioning into CACG holders but just a couple years does not make
They are inconsistent and unreliable, grades too high or too low from what I see.
This is a very vague statement. Who are they? That could describe all coin grading ever done.
If you mean CACG, the point of this thread, my experience with CACG is that they are very consistent with grades and follow the same grading standards at CAC. So if so, my experience would be inconsistent with your statement above. So can you be more specific whom you are referring to?
I was answering the question of the individual I was quoting, which was about CACG relative to current market standards.
...my experience with CACG is that they are very consistent with grades and follow the same grading standards at CAC. So if so, my experience would be inconsistent with your statement above.
We can agree to disagree on our personal opinions and experience, but the facts are still on the table. Many big players don't use CACG. That's evidence enough to show something. All the dealers I asked at OKC seemed to share a similar opinion, admittedly a small sample size.
My evidence is not a personal opinion, but a conclusion based on FACT from my inventory sells. Personal opinions are just that, subjective opinion.
So I did the numbers and here they are:
I sell PCGS/CAC and CACG holdered coins. While my sold inventory database is limited in scope statistically (n=100s not 10,000s), when averaged for the two types, both sold for the same prices within around 2% which is within error of the uncertainties due to the wide range of scatter. While there are infinite caveats to this conclusion that could be analyzed over many pages of evaluation, and I would like to use a more statistically viable database, it is what it is and I see zero evidence from my inventory that CACG coins sell for less than CACed coins.
This should not surprise anyone since JA has stated with no uncertainty that CAC and CACG use the same grading standards.
I don’t know which major players you are talking about. How about listing them? I see CACG-holdered coins at all of the major player tables I visit. If some don’t want to buy and sell CACG, well, their choice. I buy based on coin quality in the holder, so it never even registered in my brain to not buy CACG holdered coins.
There are alot of Myths that pervade numismatics. But one that is not a myth - it is the coin that matters not the holder. This is demonstrated by valuations again and again………...
@breakdown said:
I think CACG has a chance to continue to gather momentum and carve out a bigger niche. But it is dealing with at least 3 headwinds:
1. Inertia. Most top coins are in PCGS or PCGS/CAC holders and for most coins there is not a compelling enough reason to ship to Virginia to cross.
2. The PCGS registry is still the 800 pound gorilla and far more people care about the registry than would care to admit.
3. CACG does not grade at shows. This presents a major disadvantage compared to PCGS and NGC because dealers need to keep things moving and like to minimize shipping costs and risks.
I think there is a 4th headwind: the stickering business. Should have been phased out soon after launch.
JA would then be spending more time with graders to ensure his legacy and be seen regularly doing so. Imagine if a significant part of the stickering business now ended up flowing instead to CACG to bolster the reinforcing CACG.
JA sees it as a 10 year phase out oc CAC. I am not sure what the explanation is, but I don’t really think it matters. I think the main reason against CACG for some is that that there is one TPG with a registry that will only allow coins in their holders, and alot of folks are committed to that. That dynamic is likely to change with time as more of the best coins are transitioning into CACG holders but just a couple years does not make
They are inconsistent and unreliable, grades too high or too low from what I see.
This is a very vague statement. Who are they? That could describe all coin grading ever done.
If you mean CACG, the point of this thread, my experience with CACG is that they are very consistent with grades and follow the same grading standards at CAC. So if so, my experience would be inconsistent with your statement above. So can you be more specific whom you are referring to?
I was answering the question of the individual I was quoting, which was about CACG relative to current market standards.
...my experience with CACG is that they are very consistent with grades and follow the same grading standards at CAC. So if so, my experience would be inconsistent with your statement above.
We can agree to disagree on our personal opinions and experience, but the facts are still on the table. Many big players don't use CACG. That's evidence enough to show something. All the dealers I asked at OKC seemed to share a similar opinion, admittedly a small sample size.
My evidence is not a personal opinion, but a conclusion based on FACT from my inventory sells. Personal opinions are just that, subjective opinion.
So I did the numbers and here they are:
I sell PCGS/CAC and CACG holdered coins. While my sold inventory database is limited in scope statistically (n=100s not 10,000s), when averaged for the two types, both sold for the same prices within around 2% which is within error of the uncertainties due to the wide range of scatter. While there are infinite caveats to this conclusion that could be analyzed over many pages of evaluation, and I would like to use a more statistically viable database, it is what it is and I see zero evidence from my inventory that CACG coins sell for less than CACed coins.
This should not surprise anyone since JA has stated with no uncertainty that CAC and CACG use the same grading standards.
I don’t know which major players you are talking about. How about listing them? I see CACG-holdered coins at all of the major player tables I visit. If some don’t want to buy and sell CACG, well, their choice. I buy based on coin quality in the holder, so it never even registered in my brain to not buy CACG holdered coins.
There are alot of Myths that pervade numismatics. But one that is not a myth - it is the coin that matters not the holder. This is demonstrated by valuations again and again………...
Do you notice any differences between CACG legacy vs non legacy coins? Are there collectors reluctant to buy legacy coins thinking the coin was an NGC coin that didn’t cross?
I see a lot of CAC certified coins on ebay not selling for huge premiums, but around the others. The novelty has worn off, what's left is going to be people appreciating the coin, the holder, and their guarantee. Probably N/P coins with the sticker are a little better because of the question of the grade; you're getting more numismatic professionals with double certification so to speak.
@logger7 said:
I see a lot of CAC certified coins on ebay not selling for huge premiums, but around the others. The novelty has worn off, what's left is going to be people appreciating the coin, the holder, and their guarantee. Probably N/P coins with the sticker are a little better because of the question of the grade; you're getting more numismatic professionals with double certification so to speak.
I see 1000s and 1000s of coins in other TPG holders on ebay that never sell because they are overpriced, lousy images, or whatever. So why are you singling out only CACG?
And then there this whole idea floating through here that somehow two sets of grading professionals giving double certification is why some want to prefer CACed coins over CACG holders - but not NGC/CAC which is totally inconsistent with their claim. Okay folks, where were you when CAC did not exist? If you don’t trust the CACG grading team, then why do you trust the CAC grading team? Huh…………..
I will state it again. JA has insisted emphatically, and is working hard, to insure identical grading standards at CAC and CACG. Sure you can bash or compliment the grading on any single coin. But it if is correct that they are the same in terms of grading standards, then?
OK I will quit here. These efforts to bash other TPGS and their product on these boards always get me concerned. Especially with subjective opinions used to perpetuate it. I have always said that all are excellent and one has to evaluate each coin, NOT their holder.
Do you notice any differences between CACG legacy vs non legacy coins? Are there collectors reluctant to buy legacy coins thinking the coin was an NGC coin that didn’t cross?
Since I don’t put the ‘L’ in my spreadsheet, I don’t know. The L just means someone crossed a coin from another TPG/CAC that was CACed before a certain date (which I forgot the date). So coins that were TPG/CACed after that date, cross to CACG and would have no L. I know of of such coins in CACG holders.
It never crossed my mind to worry about something like that because it is the coin to me that matters when I buy and sell and the holder plays a secondary role. For example, I sold a coin in a PCGS no CAC holder at ANA for 40% over PCGS retail guide price. Why, because that was the value of this coin and both I and the buyer agreed that.
But if a coin is in a CACG graded holder or a TPG/CAC holder, I am pretty sure it is very solid for the grade bc it passed the identical standards set by CAC and CACG, but that is only step 1 of an evaluation process…………….
Keep in mind tho' that my approach might be abit idealistic. Some want to do registries, they may in some cases not approach a coin the way I would because they must have said coin in a specific holder to build a set in a registry. Many dealers are doing this for a living (I am doing this mostly for fun and to image cool coins), so if frequently a buyer comes by and says that is not in a ‘XXXX’ holder so I can’t buy it. They are going to listen as they have to keep making a living. That is understandable.
HST, @jacrispies above suggested that major dealers don’t buy (or I guess also, sell), CACG holdered coins for reasons he explains. While some dealers may not, I just went to 7 major dealer websites that sell coins in the areas that I do, and list 100s of coins. ALL OF THEM had CACG coins, and 4 of them had over 100. All of these dealers were also a major presence at ANA. Sure all of them have many more coins in PCGS holders. Just like me. That is because PGCS has been around for decades and CACG a few years. Now what do they buy on the floor? I don’t know and it could be they shy away from CACG based on similar concerns in this thread. I will have to ask all of them at the next show. But they had to get all of their coins somehow………….
Really no more posts by me in this thread this time - I am off to process my new images starting with a stunning Indian Cent in an OGH/CAC……..
@breakdown said:
I think CACG has a chance to continue to gather momentum and carve out a bigger niche. But it is dealing with at least 3 headwinds:
1. Inertia. Most top coins are in PCGS or PCGS/CAC holders and for most coins there is not a compelling enough reason to ship to Virginia to cross.
2. The PCGS registry is still the 800 pound gorilla and far more people care about the registry than would care to admit.
3. CACG does not grade at shows. This presents a major disadvantage compared to PCGS and NGC because dealers need to keep things moving and like to minimize shipping costs and risks.
I think there is a 4th headwind: the stickering business. Should have been phased out soon after launch.
JA would then be spending more time with graders to ensure his legacy and be seen regularly doing so. Imagine if a significant part of the stickering business now ended up flowing instead to CACG to bolster the reinforcing CACG.
JA sees it as a 10 year phase out oc CAC. I am not sure what the explanation is, but I don’t really think it matters. I think the main reason against CACG for some is that that there is one TPG with a registry that will only allow coins in their holders, and alot of folks are committed to that. That dynamic is likely to change with time as more of the best coins are transitioning into CACG holders but just a couple years does not make
They are inconsistent and unreliable, grades too high or too low from what I see.
This is a very vague statement. Who are they? That could describe all coin grading ever done.
If you mean CACG, the point of this thread, my experience with CACG is that they are very consistent with grades and follow the same grading standards at CAC. So if so, my experience would be inconsistent with your statement above. So can you be more specific whom you are referring to?
I was answering the question of the individual I was quoting, which was about CACG relative to current market standards.
...my experience with CACG is that they are very consistent with grades and follow the same grading standards at CAC. So if so, my experience would be inconsistent with your statement above.
We can agree to disagree on our personal opinions and experience, but the facts are still on the table. Many big players don't use CACG. That's evidence enough to show something. All the dealers I asked at OKC seemed to share a similar opinion, admittedly a small sample size.
My evidence is not a personal opinion, but a conclusion based on FACT from my inventory sells. Personal opinions are just that, subjective opinion.
So I did the numbers and here they are:
I sell PCGS/CAC and CACG holdered coins. While my sold inventory database is limited in scope statistically (n=100s not 10,000s), when averaged for the two types, both sold for the same prices within around 2% which is within error of the uncertainties due to the wide range of scatter. While there are infinite caveats to this conclusion that could be analyzed over many pages of evaluation, and I would like to use a more statistically viable database, **it is what it is and I see zero evidence from my inventory that CACG coins sell for less than CACed coins. **
This should not surprise anyone since JA has stated with no uncertainty that CAC and CACG use the same grading standards.
I don’t know which major players you are talking about. How about listing them? I see CACG-holdered coins at all of the major player tables I visit. If some don’t want to buy and sell CACG, well, their choice. I buy based on coin quality in the holder, so it never even registered in my brain to not buy CACG holdered coins.
There are alot of Myths that pervade numismatics. But one that is not a myth - it is the coin that matters not the holder. This is demonstrated by valuations again and again………...
Sure, you may sell your own CACG inventory for higher than PCGS/CAC prices. But you operate a buy-it-now platform that does not give the market freedom to choose what to pay. Let's look at an unbiased option... unreserved auctions!
I am not debating that PCGS/CAC always brings more than CACG in auction, there will of course be outliers. I'm simply observing the market. Please note I collect raw coins and have no collection bias, only viewing the market from the outside.
This should not surprise anyone since JA has stated with no uncertainty that CAC and CACG use the same grading standards.
Houck's Panacea also claimed to cure all diseases!
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
I happen to like CACG slabbed coins. I have personally expressed to JA that I do not like the CACG slab as too clunky. I suggested that the tops of the CACG slab should be made thinner or with one or more narrow notches or more like the PCGS edges to make them easier to pull out of an intercept box.
Currently, I am forced to mix my stickered PCGS slab out of order between two CACG slabs to make the CACG slab easier to pull out. When that is not possible it becomes a PITA.
I will have to remind JA again when I visit CAC soon. He did agree the first time I told him but I think he forgot.
@Cougar1978 said:
I own slightly over 2 dozen CACG slabs. They are a fun, good investment.
How do you know that they're a good investment?
CACG material has performed well for me in the retail arena. Especially low pop ones able to pick off here and there. Others able to buy right (dealer contacts). However it can be slow going - rabid (rich) auc bidder competition. However I may bid them up to low - mid retail b4 giving up.
My point is that you can’t know if your accumulation of CACG coins are a good investment until you’ve sold them.
I have sold a good number of CACG coins / nice margin too. Have done quite well with them. Both online and at shows (my table). I don’t do stickered coins anymore having moved to CACG. My CACG storage boxes accommodate all 5 TPG (neat). I still purchase PCGS, NGC.
@oldabeintx said:
I wish I could see more posts relating to the original topic. Those of us who collect without giving much consideration to the TPG are curious about the liquidity of and demand for CACG coins. Or, more accurately, the evolution of same. What progress has CACG made in the market? I love CACG but always have an eye on future value, not that I give a great deal of weight to it,
Next to impossible to get real unbiased facts here, too much personal/corporate bias.
Definitely. I don't play the registry game so I don't view PCGS as superior to CACG. I do, however, have a slight preference for NGC/CAC or PCGS/CAC over CACG just because I have 2 independent opinions.
Same here... but since I agree with you .... you might wish to reconsider your answer?
On a side note, I have a few more PCGS/CAC coins than NGC/CAC coins that show poorly. Not sure what that has to do with anything but I felt like posting something.
@oldabeintx said:
I wish I could see more posts relating to the original topic. Those of us who collect without giving much consideration to the TPG are curious about the liquidity of and demand for CACG coins. Or, more accurately, the evolution of same. What progress has CACG made in the market? I love CACG but always have an eye on future value, not that I give a great deal of weight to it,
Next to impossible to get real unbiased facts here, too much personal/corporate bias.
Definitely. I don't play the registry game so I don't view PCGS as superior to CACG. I do, however, have a slight preference for NGC/CAC or PCGS/CAC over CACG just because I have 2 independent opinions.
Same here... but since I agree with you .... you might wish to reconsider your answer?
On a side note, I have a few more PCGS/CAC coins than NGC/CAC coins that show poorly. Not sure what that has to do with anything but I felt like posting something.
Lol. I'm not the one who hates to agree with people. I believe everyone should agree with me all the time. I seem to be the one no one wants to be caught agreeing with. So you might rethink your answer. 😉
All kidding aside, I do find the notion that NGC/CAC is suspect or inferior to PCGS/CAC odd. That bias definitely exists (see this thread) but if someone believes that then it's really CAC they have a problem with not NGC since they are rejecting the CAC approval.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
What I like about these discussions is the willingness of some members to admit that they don't like a certain TPG's holder(s) or that they prefer the holder of a certain TPG. I wonder how much that influences purchases??
--- this post is not MFeld approved.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
@Maywood said:
What I like about these discussions is the willingness of some members to admit that they don't like a certain TPG's holder(s) or that they prefer the holder of a certain TPG. I wonder how much that influences purchases??
--- this post is not MFeld approved.
You don't speak for me and thank goodness for that. And for the record, I certainly have no issue with members stating or admitting tht they don't like or that they prefer certain holders. I appreciate their transparency.
Since there's no way to know how much holder preferences influence prices, you'll have to be left wondering.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I prefer clear slabs, like PCGS and CACG. Call me an idiot, but I’ve not had a problem with being unable to find a desirable coin in the slab that meets my aesthetic requirement.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@Maywood said:
What I like about these discussions is the willingness of some members to admit that they don't like a certain TPG's holder(s) or that they prefer the holder of a certain TPG. I wonder how much that influences purchases??
--- this post is not MFeld approved.
You don't speak for me and thank goodness for that. And for the record, I certainly have no issue with members stating or admitting tht they don't like or that they prefer certain holders. I appreciate their transparency.
Since there's no way to know how much holder preferences influence prices, you'll have to be left wondering.
You could look at the same coin crossed over at the same grade to get some idea
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@Maywood said:
What I like about these discussions is the willingness of some members to admit that they don't like a certain TPG's holder(s) or that they prefer the holder of a certain TPG. I wonder how much that influences purchases??
--- this post is not MFeld approved.
You don't speak for me and thank goodness for that. And for the record, I certainly have no issue with members stating or admitting tht they don't like or that they prefer certain holders. I appreciate their transparency.
Since there's no way to know how much holder preferences influence prices, you'll have to be left wondering.
You could look at the same coin crossed over at the same grade to get some idea
You could. But you wouldn’t know all the reasons for any difference in price or the weight of those reasons. Some of the difference would likely be due to the holders, but there are usually other factors at play, as well. Among them might be the timing of the sale/market conditions, the sale platform, the absence or participation of various bidders at a given time due to availability of funds, current buying priorities, etc.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@oreville said:
I happen to like CACG slabbed coins. I have personally expressed to JA that I do not like the CACG slab as too clunky. I suggested that the tops of the CACG slab should be made thinner or with one or more narrow notches or more like the PCGS edges to make them easier to pull out of an intercept box.
Currently, I am forced to mix my stickered PCGS slab out of order between two CACG slabs to make the CACG slab easier to pull out. When that is not possible it becomes a PITA.
I will have to remind JA again when I visit CAC soon. He did agree the first time I told him but I think he forgot.
I find the CACG slabs far superior bc they fit together perfectly. I can have 6 or more in my closed hand and not have a distaster. If I did that with PCGS slabs, when the hand closes, the coins are likely going to shoot off in all directions. Same goes for putting them in intercept boxes with no slots, the CACG fit together, I can read what they are from about a 45 degree angle above, cool. The PCGS slabs just scatter around each other and I have to put rubber bands around groups of them to keep them scattering.
I will have to remind CAC next time I am at their booth and also on their chat boards just how good their slabs are.
@Cougar1978 said:
I own slightly over 2 dozen CACG slabs. They are a fun, good investment.
How do you know that they're a good investment?
CACG material has performed well for me in the retail arena. Especially low pop ones able to pick off here and there. Others able to buy right (dealer contacts). However it can be slow going - rabid (rich) auc bidder competition. However I may bid them up to low - mid retail b4 giving up.
My point is that you can’t know if your accumulation of CACG coins are a good investment until you’ve sold them.
That statement can go for ANY accumulation of coins. Why single out CACG?
This is the thing about this thread, it promotes a false narrative against one TPG in favor of another, I thought that was against the rules on these chat boards?……….
@jmlanzaf said:
Definitely. I don't play the registry game so I don't view PCGS as superior to CACG. I do, however, have a slight preference for NGC/CAC or PCGS/CAC over CACG just because I have 2 independent opinions.
>
Sure, but the point is, you only need one opinion IF the grading standards for CAC and CACG are identical, which JA has stated over and over. So the only preference for your choices should be the quality of the coin, not the holder if CAC or CACG.
All kidding aside, I do find the notion that NGC/CAC is suspect or inferior to PCGS/CAC odd. That bias definitely exists (see this thread) but if someone believes that then it's really CAC they have a problem with not NGC since they are rejecting the CAC approval.
Then why would you find the notion of PCGS/CAC over CACG not odd? Same grading standards same thing.
Comments
Not much progress. They are inconsistent and unreliable, grades too high or too low from what I see. Because of this, many major players tend to avoid CACG, because PCGS and NGC already have sturdy interest in the developed marketplace. CACG doesn't pull the kind of premium people were first expecting.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
You're missing meme opportunities
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Would those meme opportunities include images of Pinocchio?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jacrispies said: Not much progress.
This is interesting to hear. As CAC all the heavy lifting has been done by the PCGS/NGC grading teams, as CACG that entity is seeing coins raw and making an unbiased grade assessment.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Is he the patron saint of sarcasm?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Or receiving thousands upon thousands of PCGS/NGC graded coins for CACG upgrade, with many passing. Besides this scenario, sending coins to CACG makes little financial sense from either the collector or dealer mindset.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
Yes, I had considered that but was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, we'll never know those numbers.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
That's because it's effectively graded by two grading services at the same time and is compatible with the largest registry program out there.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
More of a Crusader.
I sold a number of CACG graded gold coins to a dealer in May and they brought strong money. The same money that a PCGS/CAC would have (as stated by the dealer when he searched auction results). I had very low offers for the non-CAC PCGS gold and silver.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
I assume you're just happy to see us?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
I think there is a 4th headwind: the stickering business. Should have been phased out soon after launch.
JA would then be spending more time with graders to ensure his legacy and be seen regularly doing so. Imagine if a significant part of the stickering business now ended up flowing instead to CACG to bolster the reinforcing CACG.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I love the stickering part of this process. You got two different grading companies looking at a coin two different sets of eyes professionals mostly and I think it’s great when the coin stickers so I hope we don’t raise out the stickering part of that company.
@Proofmorgan said "Ultimately, it seems PCGS/CAC is still king. I'm unsure if this has to do with registry, collectors wanting a consistent holder, or brand identity"
As a collector and fan of the PCGS/CAC combination I have a few thoughts on this subject.
I am not sure the PCGS registry is still a driving factor since PCGS crippled the PCGS CAC aspect of the registry. I cannot update all of my CAC sets, only some here and there.
Which makes me wonder if CAC stickers done before the creation of CACG are still eligible or more eligible for current updates.
The niche market for older PCGS holders / labels has a distinct following (doily, rattler, green label, and the cornucopia of other label variants).
Adding a CAC sticker to a small population of pcgs holders creates instant "rarity" which became its own subset and specialized PCGS registry for a time period.
The overall population of PCGS CAC is dramatically lower than the PCGS population. There is a distinct premium for PCGS CAC in most coin series which is clearly evident in the Eisenhower dollars, arguably the most difficult coin get a sticker on.
I personally do not collect any series that is rarely offered among all grading companies. Most coins from the mid 1850s to present are readily available from any given company.
I have been buying pcgs for so long that 99% of the time I can just wait to find a coin I want already in PCGS plastic. I do not have to settle for any other holder except with rare die varieties.
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
One additional point. My CACG plus graded coins were better received than my PCGS/CAC plus coins. One large West Coast Dealer actually handed back the PCAC plus coin and said he does not like buying those.
Makes sense. A CACG plus is a true plus, a PCGS/CAC plus is possibly a plus and possibly not.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
They are trying to cut into that 4th headwind and phase out CAC stickering, just slowly. We have seen CAC stickering stop accepting new members and stickering prices have gone up. To pull the plug completely on stickering at the launch of CACG would have been too much of a risk if it struggled.
Next to impossible to get real unbiased facts here, too much personal/corporate bias.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
This is a very vague statement. Who are they? That could describe all coin grading ever done.
If you mean CACG, the point of this thread, my experience with CACG is that they are very consistent with grades and follow the same grading standards at CAC. So if so, my experience would be inconsistent with your statement above. So can you be more specific whom you are referring to?
And a totally vague and meaningless statement with out specifics of what he was referring to as I note above.
It is more the registry. What about the other coins that don’t CAC? Were they effectively graded too? Apparently not since many likely failed CAC.
That has been exactly my experience selling both CACG and PCGS/CAC vs. non-CACed gold coins in slabs.
How do you know that they're a good investment?
Smitten with DBLCs.
Definitely. I don't play the registry game so I don't view PCGS as superior to CACG. I do, however, have a slight preference for NGC/CAC or PCGS/CAC over CACG just because I have 2 independent opinions.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
I was answering the question of the individual I was quoting, which was about CACG relative to current market standards.
We can agree to disagree on our personal opinions and experience, but the facts are still on the table. Many big players don't use CACG. That's evidence enough to show something. All the dealers I asked at OKC seemed to share a similar opinion, admittedly a small sample size.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
You'd know why if you didn't clip the sentence I said before that. The reason for having an entire collection in the same holder goes beyond the registry.
Not all collectors believe an all inclusive registry is a good thing. For many of the modern sets I collect, NGC sets can be put together at a much lower price than a PCGS or CACG set, and in my experience most of those NGC coins will not cross to PCGS or CACG so it is not a level playing field. In fact recently I've tried to cross several NGC MS68s to PCGS @ 67 and they still wouldn't take them. Who wants to compete with that?
There was a message in the PCGS registry to email customer service about this. I think they manually update the database now.
A "true" plus by what standard? Per PCGS: A PCGS "Plus" grade indicates a coin is of superior quality, possessing excellent eye appeal and technical attributes, placing it among the top 20-30% of coins within its assigned numerical grade." I wouldn't expect NGC or CACG to have the same standard because as already discussed, they each have their own standards. Which one is the "true" standard?
http://ProofCollection.Net
CACG material has performed well for me in the retail arena. Especially low pop ones able to pick off here and there. Others able to buy right (dealer contacts). However it can be slow going - rabid (rich) auc bidder competition. However I may bid them up to low - mid retail b4 giving up.
JA sees it as a 10 year phase out oc CAC. I am not sure what the explanation is, but I don’t really think it matters. I think the main reason against CACG for some is that that there is one TPG with a registry that will only allow coins in their holders, and alot of folks are committed to that. That dynamic is likely to change with time as more of the best coins are transitioning into CACG holders but just a couple years does not make
My evidence is not a personal opinion, but a conclusion based on FACT from my inventory sells. Personal opinions are just that, subjective opinion.
So I did the numbers and here they are:
I sell PCGS/CAC and CACG holdered coins. While my sold inventory database is limited in scope statistically (n=100s not 10,000s), when averaged for the two types, both sold for the same prices within around 2% which is within error of the uncertainties due to the wide range of scatter. While there are infinite caveats to this conclusion that could be analyzed over many pages of evaluation, and I would like to use a more statistically viable database, it is what it is and I see zero evidence from my inventory that CACG coins sell for less than CACed coins.
This should not surprise anyone since JA has stated with no uncertainty that CAC and CACG use the same grading standards.
I don’t know which major players you are talking about. How about listing them? I see CACG-holdered coins at all of the major player tables I visit. If some don’t want to buy and sell CACG, well, their choice. I buy based on coin quality in the holder, so it never even registered in my brain to not buy CACG holdered coins.
There are alot of Myths that pervade numismatics. But one that is not a myth - it is the coin that matters not the holder. This is demonstrated by valuations again and again………...
Do you notice any differences between CACG legacy vs non legacy coins? Are there collectors reluctant to buy legacy coins thinking the coin was an NGC coin that didn’t cross?
I see a lot of CAC certified coins on ebay not selling for huge premiums, but around the others. The novelty has worn off, what's left is going to be people appreciating the coin, the holder, and their guarantee. Probably N/P coins with the sticker are a little better because of the question of the grade; you're getting more numismatic professionals with double certification so to speak.
I see 1000s and 1000s of coins in other TPG holders on ebay that never sell because they are overpriced, lousy images, or whatever. So why are you singling out only CACG?
And then there this whole idea floating through here that somehow two sets of grading professionals giving double certification is why some want to prefer CACed coins over CACG holders - but not NGC/CAC which is totally inconsistent with their claim. Okay folks, where were you when CAC did not exist? If you don’t trust the CACG grading team, then why do you trust the CAC grading team? Huh…………..
I will state it again. JA has insisted emphatically, and is working hard, to insure identical grading standards at CAC and CACG. Sure you can bash or compliment the grading on any single coin. But it if is correct that they are the same in terms of grading standards, then?
OK I will quit here. These efforts to bash other TPGS and their product on these boards always get me concerned. Especially with subjective opinions used to perpetuate it. I have always said that all are excellent and one has to evaluate each coin, NOT their holder.
Since I don’t put the ‘L’ in my spreadsheet, I don’t know. The L just means someone crossed a coin from another TPG/CAC that was CACed before a certain date (which I forgot the date). So coins that were TPG/CACed after that date, cross to CACG and would have no L. I know of of such coins in CACG holders.
It never crossed my mind to worry about something like that because it is the coin to me that matters when I buy and sell and the holder plays a secondary role. For example, I sold a coin in a PCGS no CAC holder at ANA for 40% over PCGS retail guide price. Why, because that was the value of this coin and both I and the buyer agreed that.
But if a coin is in a CACG graded holder or a TPG/CAC holder, I am pretty sure it is very solid for the grade bc it passed the identical standards set by CAC and CACG, but that is only step 1 of an evaluation process…………….
@Desert Moon. Right on. Buy the coin not the holder. How many times must this be said before the coin community takes it to heart?
Thanks @oldabeintx
Keep in mind tho' that my approach might be abit idealistic. Some want to do registries, they may in some cases not approach a coin the way I would because they must have said coin in a specific holder to build a set in a registry. Many dealers are doing this for a living (I am doing this mostly for fun and to image cool coins), so if frequently a buyer comes by and says that is not in a ‘XXXX’ holder so I can’t buy it. They are going to listen as they have to keep making a living. That is understandable.
HST, @jacrispies above suggested that major dealers don’t buy (or I guess also, sell), CACG holdered coins for reasons he explains. While some dealers may not, I just went to 7 major dealer websites that sell coins in the areas that I do, and list 100s of coins. ALL OF THEM had CACG coins, and 4 of them had over 100. All of these dealers were also a major presence at ANA. Sure all of them have many more coins in PCGS holders. Just like me. That is because PGCS has been around for decades and CACG a few years. Now what do they buy on the floor? I don’t know and it could be they shy away from CACG based on similar concerns in this thread. I will have to ask all of them at the next show. But they had to get all of their coins somehow………….
Really no more posts by me in this thread this time - I am off to process my new images starting with a stunning Indian Cent in an OGH/CAC……..
It is an interesting topic for sure.
Best, DM
You are certainly passionate Desert Moon!
Sure, you may sell your own CACG inventory for higher than PCGS/CAC prices. But you operate a buy-it-now platform that does not give the market freedom to choose what to pay. Let's look at an unbiased option... unreserved auctions!
Even with auctions, maintaining a control sample can also be difficult. Toning/appearance, market timing, and auction platform are all key factors that could affect sale price outside of the TPG holder. I'll list all notable detail for full transparency. I tried to find the exact coins that were crossed and sold, or identical examples. No major pedigrees or special sales that could boost exposure and prices.
1928-S Mercury Dime, MS-66 FB (PCGS), CAC. $6,600 May 2025
https://coins.ha.com/itm/mercury-dimes/1928-s-10c-ms66-full-bands-pcgs-cac-pcgs-4971-/a/1374-4078.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515
1928-S Mercury Dime, MS-66 FB (CACG). $4,800, June 2025
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-1JHQ1T/1928-s-mercury-dime-ms-66-fb-cacg
Different coins, same white appearance, sold within a month time frame.
1883 Shield Nickel, Proof-66 Cameo (PCGS), CAC. $900, May 2025
https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-shield-nickels/1883-5c-shield-pr66-cameo-pcgs-pcgs-population-65-10-and-5-2-pcgs-83838-/a/132510-21081.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515
1883 Shield Nickel, Proof-66 Cameo (CACG). $870, May 2025
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-1IVLS2/1883-shield-nickel-proof-66-cameo-cacg
Different coin, same appearance, sold in the same month. I personally think the CACG coin looks nicer.
1814 Capped Bust Half Dollar, MS-63 (PCGS) (no CAC). $4,320, January 2025
https://coins.ha.com/itm/bust-half-dollars/1814-50c-o-103-r1-ms63-pcgs-pcgs-39477-/a/1380-5010.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
1814 Capped Bust Half Dollar, MS-63 (CACG). $4,320, June 2025
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-1JHSHF/1814-capped-bust-half-dollar-o-103-rarity-1-ms-63-cacg
Same coin, crossed at the same grade. No CAC on the PCGS coin, but they sold at the same exact price. But if CACG brings at or higher than PCGS/CAC price, the CACG would have sold for more.
1934-D Peace Silver Dollar, MS-66+ (PCGS), CAC. $16,800, November 2024.
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-1DU1SH/1934-d-peace-silver-dollar-ms-66-pcgs-cac
1934-D Peace Silver Dollar, MS-66+ (CACG). $10,800, April 2025.
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-1H9NWA/1934-d-peace-silver-dollar-ms-66-cacg
Both examples are practically blast white with similar strikes. I do notice that the CACG holder was in a standard live sale while the PCGS/CAC sold in rarities night, which could have made a difference.
1889-O Morgan Silver Dollar, MS-64+ (PCGS), CAC. $1,920, April 2024.
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-18AVHW/1889-o-morgan-silver-dollar-ms-64-pcgs-cac
1889-O Morgan Silver Dollar. MS-64+ (CACG), $1,200, April 2025
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-1HCWUA/1889-o-morgan-silver-dollar-ms-64-cacg
Same coin crossed over to CACG. Even though they are a year apart, the market has not gone down by any means. I would actually argue the market has increased from 2024 to 2025.
I am not debating that PCGS/CAC always brings more than CACG in auction, there will of course be outliers. I'm simply observing the market. Please note I collect raw coins and have no collection bias, only viewing the market from the outside.
Houck's Panacea also claimed to cure all diseases!
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
I happen to like CACG slabbed coins. I have personally expressed to JA that I do not like the CACG slab as too clunky. I suggested that the tops of the CACG slab should be made thinner or with one or more narrow notches or more like the PCGS edges to make them easier to pull out of an intercept box.
Currently, I am forced to mix my stickered PCGS slab out of order between two CACG slabs to make the CACG slab easier to pull out. When that is not possible it becomes a PITA.
I will have to remind JA again when I visit CAC soon. He did agree the first time I told him but I think he forgot.
My point is that you can’t know if your accumulation of CACG coins are a good investment until you’ve sold them.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Oh no! Please don't use the word "investment" around here! Laughs, it will start another beat the dead horse rabbit hole!
I have sold a good number of CACG coins / nice margin too. Have done quite well with them. Both online and at shows (my table). I don’t do stickered coins anymore having moved to CACG. My CACG storage boxes accommodate all 5 TPG (neat). I still purchase PCGS, NGC.
Same here... but since I agree with you .... you might wish to reconsider your answer?
On a side note, I have a few more PCGS/CAC coins than NGC/CAC coins that show poorly. Not sure what that has to do with anything but I felt like posting something.
Lol. I'm not the one who hates to agree with people. I believe everyone should agree with me all the time. I seem to be the one no one wants to be caught agreeing with. So you might rethink your answer. 😉
All kidding aside, I do find the notion that NGC/CAC is suspect or inferior to PCGS/CAC odd. That bias definitely exists (see this thread) but if someone believes that then it's really CAC they have a problem with not NGC since they are rejecting the CAC approval.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
What I like about these discussions is the willingness of some members to admit that they don't like a certain TPG's holder(s) or that they prefer the holder of a certain TPG. I wonder how much that influences purchases??
--- this post is not MFeld approved.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
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You don't speak for me and thank goodness for that. And for the record, I certainly have no issue with members stating or admitting tht they don't like or that they prefer certain holders. I appreciate their transparency.
Since there's no way to know how much holder preferences influence prices, you'll have to be left wondering.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I prefer clear slabs, like PCGS and CACG. Call me an idiot, but I’ve not had a problem with being unable to find a desirable coin in the slab that meets my aesthetic requirement.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
You could look at the same coin crossed over at the same grade to get some idea
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
You could. But you wouldn’t know all the reasons for any difference in price or the weight of those reasons. Some of the difference would likely be due to the holders, but there are usually other factors at play, as well. Among them might be the timing of the sale/market conditions, the sale platform, the absence or participation of various bidders at a given time due to availability of funds, current buying priorities, etc.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I find the CACG slabs far superior bc they fit together perfectly. I can have 6 or more in my closed hand and not have a distaster. If I did that with PCGS slabs, when the hand closes, the coins are likely going to shoot off in all directions. Same goes for putting them in intercept boxes with no slots, the CACG fit together, I can read what they are from about a 45 degree angle above, cool. The PCGS slabs just scatter around each other and I have to put rubber bands around groups of them to keep them scattering.
I will have to remind CAC next time I am at their booth and also on their chat boards just how good their slabs are.
That statement can go for ANY accumulation of coins. Why single out CACG?
This is the thing about this thread, it promotes a false narrative against one TPG in favor of another, I thought that was against the rules on these chat boards?……….
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Sure, but the point is, you only need one opinion IF the grading standards for CAC and CACG are identical, which JA has stated over and over. So the only preference for your choices should be the quality of the coin, not the holder if CAC or CACG.
Then why would you find the notion of PCGS/CAC over CACG not odd? Same grading standards same thing.
IT IS THE COIN NOT THE HOLDER FOLKS………...